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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Teenagers & YA in Anglo-Catholic Parishes
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Hi guys,
The discussion of the popularity of the Extraordinary Form/Tridentine Mass is becoming a bit of a tangent. I see how it can be relevant to discussing the appeal of churches with such liturgical practices, but it has probably run its course now.
Back to our scheduled discussion?
dj_ordinaire, Ecclesiantics host
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:That does not mean that everyone under 25 likes Justin Bieber (God help us!) nor that all his fans are under 25.
Equally, and more importantly in terms of my concern, the fact that U25s might be more likely to like Justin Bieber doesn't mean either that the U25s do not like anything that isn't Justin Bieber. Some of them will like different purveyors of "rock and roll (and other children's music)" and some of them will like Elgar, some of them will like Bach, some of them will like Hildegard of Bingen and some will all three of those whilst still liking Justin Bieber.
My discomfort is not with the suggestion that U25s are demographically more likely to enjoy such music; I am uncomfortable with:
(a) the idea that U25s like (say) Bieber and therefore do not like anything other than (say) Bieber and
(b) the idea that the "evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive" to the U25s because some evangelical churches might offer music in the style of (say) Bieber.
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:That does not mean that everyone under 25 likes Justin Bieber (God help us!) nor that all his fans are under 25.
Equally, and more importantly in terms of my concern, the fact that U25s might be more likely to like Justin Bieber doesn't mean either that the U25s do not like anything that isn't Justin Bieber. Some of them will like different purveyors of "rock and roll (and other children's music)" and some of them will like Elgar, some of them will like Bach, some of them will like Hildegard of Bingen and some will all three of those whilst still liking Justin Bieber.
My discomfort is not with the suggestion that U25s are demographically more likely to enjoy such music; I am uncomfortable with:
(a) the idea that U25s like (say) Bieber and therefore do not like anything other than (say) Bieber and
(b) the idea that the "evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive" to the U25s because some evangelical churches might offer music in the style of (say) Bieber.
To say that the evangelical church SEEMS better suited or more attractive to the U25s is to speak in generalities, surely you see this done elsewhere. To say that leaving the EU is more attractive to those in low SES areas doesn't mean that every person in a low SES area wanted to leave the SES, it is talking about a population trend, not about each and every individual in a population.
As for point B where on earth do you get the idea that anybody on this thread has put forward the idea that evangelical churches are more attractive because of the style of music they offer? Karl's example of Bieber had nothing to do with church music offerings but was trying to illustrate how demographic trends might be understood.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:That does not mean that everyone under 25 likes Justin Bieber (God help us!) nor that all his fans are under 25.
Equally, and more importantly in terms of my concern, the fact that U25s might be more likely to like Justin Bieber doesn't mean either that the U25s do not like anything that isn't Justin Bieber. Some of them will like different purveyors of "rock and roll (and other children's music)" and some of them will like Elgar, some of them will like Bach, some of them will like Hildegard of Bingen and some will all three of those whilst still liking Justin Bieber.
My discomfort is not with the suggestion that U25s are demographically more likely to enjoy such music; I am uncomfortable with:
(a) the idea that U25s like (say) Bieber and therefore do not like anything other than (say) Bieber and
(b) the idea that the "evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive" to the U25s because some evangelical churches might offer music in the style of (say) Bieber.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) That's the first time I've heard an implication that Justin Bieber is Rock and Roll. Though I appreciate the Lehrer reference.
[ 02. December 2016, 08:37: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
To say that the evangelical church SEEMS better suited or more attractive to the U25s is to speak in generalities, surely you see this done elsewhere.
As for point B where on earth do you get the idea that anybody on this thread has put forward the idea that evangelical churches are more attractive because of the style of music they offer? Karl's example of Bieber had nothing to do with church music offerings but was trying to illustrate how demographic trends might be understood.
Where on earth do you get the idea that I've put forward the idea that Karl's example was about church music offerings? You spoke of generalities; Karl illustrated the point using an example that deals in the generalities; I continued the use of the example in generalities. Surely you see this done elsewhere?
My discomfort is with the generalisation itself. The generality is pointless because it's generality. I'm uncomfortable with the generalisation the idea that U25s like one particular form of "anything" and therefore don't like any other form of "anything". I'm uncomfortable with the idea that the "evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive" to the U25s because the evangelical church offers "anything" that U25s like and other churches don't. Your opening post may have been an attempt to get away from the generalisations about the "anything" that churches offer, but it does so based on a generalisation about the U25s.
ETA: Karl - I'm always glad when somebody recognises the reference!
[ 02. December 2016, 12:57: Message edited by: Teekeey Misha ]
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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DonLogan2
Shipmate
# 15608
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Posted
Sorry to make it easier for me I have just cut and pasted this so I hope it makes sense.
“So I have been having discussions with some clergy around youth programs and keeping children in church. One particular issue that came up was in nose bleed high Anglican churches how do you make(keep?) that relevant to young people?”
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Young people (YP) are like anyone else, an individual and as such if you use a good program you will strike a chord with some and not others.
Regarding the second part, if the YP have come through this style of worship then they have an adoptive faith, as they reach (generalisation alert) 10-12 years old the way they think changes and they start to understand concepts better and will question things, this is where they will most likely falter. They have enough pain at school to deal with from all the peer pressures that are thrown at them having to defend their parents’ choice is something they will not want to do as it is easier to conform to the norm, something they also do at church. My idea would be to let the nose bleed get worse and let the patient expire (kidding….slightly). Yes it is to do with relevance, but they need to own their own faith not to wear their parents` hand me downs. There is no silver bullet fix for this, each youth group will be different but have commonalities. The YP I work with (please understand the language I just used) have been allowed to ask questions that have baffled them about the things they learn about the Bible at church/home and school. We also look at things that happen in the media and try to find something in the Bible that covers that aspect, and soon we will be looking at pornography (major can o` worms).
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“I'm not from quite that high a tradition but do acknowledge that the evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive to teenagers and the under 25s.
Will Anglo-catholic churches die out from "lack of relevance to young people"?”
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No they need to adapt, or dare I say, evolve!
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“Does anybody have any examples of such churches engaging well with young people or of particular programs or activities that sit well with "youth" and high church sensibilities?”
If high church (goers) do not want to adapt their practices then they will die out and the blood will be on their own hands, high church and in particular its liturgy was not the same as 1st C Asia church, and it therefore cannot stay the same for eternity. I struggle with this in the church I attend (CoS, low but not horizontal), the YP enjoy learning about God by sitting around questioning things and those (generalisation alert) who attend the “adult” service would be horrified to even think about learning about God by sitting around and questioning things. If they want “their” church to carry on and the YP to eventually be seated next to them, then someone has to change. Both groups that is; the YP have to accept that there will be some absorption of liturgical methods(ology) and so must the oldies.
Get a good YW would be a starting point.
Try little keisen steps when changing things, accept you will lose people and don`t get discouraged.
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“I have of late, but wherefore I know not, lost all my mirth... "
Posts: 359 | From: the very depths | Registered: Apr 2010
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cattyish
Wuss in Boots
# 7829
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Posted
Meanwhile in rural Scotland...
I run our kirk youth group. There are about 8 of them, which isn't bad. Our wee village kirk has a congregation of about 60 on a Sunday morning, and so 8 nine to fourteen year olds and a bunch of younger children is a reasonable ratio.
My main planning problem is that they have other things to do half the time. If they go to a friend's house on Saturday night they don't come to church on Sunday morning. If they go away to Grannie's at the weekend, play rugby, take part in the local children's theatre or just sleep in they miss church. The youth group can be 8 children of widely varying ages one week and then for three or four weeks just three or two; occasionally one. If there aren't many there I give them the choice to either stay in church with their parents or do something relevant one on one. Our set up and the fact that the parents can see us in our room under the balcony makes this possible.
Music is a great thing for our young people. They almost all have some form of musical education and several of them sing in choirs, including classical choral music. They love the beautiful hymns and the strong tradition of classical music in our kirk. I'm not musical enough to get them singing together in Youth Group, but they do engage with the hymns and songs in church.
They love games and food and watching film clips together so I use these elements in our group sessions. They like to take part in church services, and most of them if offered the chance will read aloud.
I always use the Bible and get them to look things up by book, chapter and verse. I make sure they all have their own Bible. An eleven year old boy in our group told me he's been reading Revelation with his friend who attends another church.
We always pray together at some point in our session. We use a really simple model: tsp, standing for thank you, sorry, please. We rarely use pre-written or liturgical prayer, but the children like the odd bit of that. Maybe we should use more.
Over time we've seen a few young people grow up and take their talents and faith elsewhere. I'm in touch with some of them on Facebook; others are away in the USA and Kenya with their families and we only see them occasionally.
Cattyish, planning tomorrow's Epiphany drama with the help of a plastic Roman Soldier's helmet and a fake beard.
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...to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived, this is to have succeeded.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Posts: 1794 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jul 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Our Place (A-C back street UPA parish) has a large and flourishing Scouts/Cubs/Beavers/Squirrels group(s) affiliated unto us (100+ Kidz, AFAIK).
They come to church 4 times a year, is all - Mothering Sunday, Sea Sunday (dockside parish), Harvest Festival, Christingle Service - though the majority attending are Beavers/Cubs. I'd love to involve them in church more often, and there is a great deal of goodwill between church and leaders, but, as cattyish says, they simply have so much else on at weekends.
We also have a monthly Saturday afternoon/early evening 'Crafty Church/Youth Club' for 7s-12s, which can have up to 20+ Kidz attending. There is some overlap with Beavers etc., but for quite a few of the Kidz, this is their only experience of 'church'. Those responsible for 'Crafty Church' are now considering how to involve parents etc. in the activities and worship as well. It's a bit like Messy Church, only older (and tidier).
On top of this, we offer 'Sunday School' to any Kidz attending the Parish Mass, and now and then we can get up to 6-8 under 16s (even though our ASA has dropped this last year to 25 or so.... ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif) )
Given our limited human resources, this is about as much as we can do at the moment, though there is clearly scope for more. One young lass of 11, who attends on 2-3 Sundays a month, is doing very well as a server and reader...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
O, I forgot to say - apart from the occasional student, we only have 2 teenagers attending at all regularly. A third has just started at Oxford, so we now only see her at vacation time.
To a certain extent, this mirrors the current demographics of our parish - the majority group is made up of young families with pre-teen (mostly) children. I think this needs to be borne in mind - there may be few young people at your church, simply because there are few young people on your patch!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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DonLogan2
Shipmate
# 15608
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Posted
Just to add; today I am getting together with whoever turns up and trying to get them to plan their own programme of events and learning outcomes. I`m also hoping that some will be back from their hols as I do miss seeing them and learning from them
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“I have of late, but wherefore I know not, lost all my mirth... "
Posts: 359 | From: the very depths | Registered: Apr 2010
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
... they simply have so much else on at weekends ...
Clearly this is true, but ...
(a) I think it is increasingly hard to see children/YP regularly in church unless their parents attend too - especially true if they live distant from church and there is no decent Sunday public transport. Even those within walking distance will find it difficult to get up and out if that's not what the rest of the family are doing.
(b) I suspect that a lot of parents see Scouts etc. as a primarily weeknight thing (with the occasional weekend camp); thy don't think of it as a "church" activity but as "something that takes place in the local church hall". (This is also true to for Boys' and Girls' Brigades IME, even though they are explicitly Christian).
(c) While Sundays are indeed "busy" days for many families (and we have lost families from our church because of this), we must also look critically at the quality and interest of the Sunday activities we are offering to children and YP. A Bible story and some colouring-in are not enough (and may be woefully babyish anyway). As others have said, the key seems to be meaningful interaction.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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DonLogan2
Shipmate
# 15608
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Posted
Everyone has a lot to do on a Sunday, which for me asks the question; "Why do we need to have worship on a Sunday?"
Tradition mainly, this I think is important. The YP who attend with there parents on a Sunday come from areas up to 8 miles away and therefore go to different schools. YP will generally mix well, but it is hard for them to engage meaningly if they do not know each other well. I asked them if they wanted to get together as a group during the week and they did, this led to a group of their friends who do not have any attachment to any church also coming along. Yes it is church lite© but it relational and the group can now discuss the various topics on a Sunday by posing and answering difficult questions as they know each other better.
Perhaps we should negotiate the day we worship?
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“I have of late, but wherefore I know not, lost all my mirth... "
Posts: 359 | From: the very depths | Registered: Apr 2010
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