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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: "Christian" is not the antonym for "Catholic"
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
In my work as a chaplain to poor and working class men in recovery from drug and alcohol abuse, I frequently hear things along the following lines: quote:
- Are you Christian or are you Catholic?
- I was raised Catholic, but now I'm Christian.
- I used to be Catholic, but now I'm saved.
What makes this so weird is that we are located in a small, old, down-at-the-heels industrial city that was formerly immigrant Catholic right down to its little cotton socks. St. Joe's is down the street, St. Mary's the block beyond that, Sacred Heart (da botha dem) on the other side of town; you get the idea. Then there's the influx of Cape Verdeans and Brazilians and Latinos of all stripes, but it's still predominantly white. The men have rosaries and saints bracelets. They've been to CCD classes and know their deadly sins and cardinal and theological virtues. They read the bible and "hit their knees" when they pray.
It's true that the outreach group from the local, bible-believing Gospel Hall, who come one night a week, preach quite frankly that Catholics are going to hell, but that one outpost of fundamentalism can't account for all of it.
So my questions are these:
- Am I right to take an oblique tack and merely reply to #1, "Oh, I'm Christian and catholic" and then move the conversation on?
- Is this a pond difference? Is there this calculated, sustained, and slanderous attack made on Catholics only in the US?
- Is there a regional aspect to this even in the US? A concerted anti-Catholic "evangelizing" effort in Catholic redoubts?
- My approach to ministry here has been to sidestep the issue and preach a solid catholic faith. (For example, when I employ books outside the 66-book Protestant canon, I make no special notice of it.) Ought I sally forth occasionally and denounce the idea that Catholics are not Christian?
- How else might I consider treating this egregious belief?
- Is it really that egregious?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Phos Hilaron
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# 6914
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Posted
Congratulations, The Silent Acolyte! You've just prodded me out of an extended period of lurking. I think it's a pond difference. Over here in South Korea, there is also this split between "Catholic" and "Christian". It confused me at first as well. In US English, I think "Christian" is just a synonym for protestant.
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Gaero?.......Gaero!
Posts: 1684 | From: Choson | Registered: May 2004
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It's true that the outreach group from the local, bible-believing Gospel Hall, who come one night a week, preach quite frankly that Catholics are going to hell, but that one outpost of fundamentalism can't account for all of it.
And Catholics are not bible-believing? Never come across many of them.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Morgan
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# 15372
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Posted
Terminology changes and the same word can carry different meanings, like liberal and Liberal.
In my lifetime and my small circle of experience "Christian" has expanded, not in meaning but as a term of broad applicability. When I was a child people I met were Catholic, Church of England (now known as Anglican in this part of the world), Methodist, Presbyterian, etc., etc. If they were Protestant but one of the smaller groups not generally recognisable to the masses, then they were "Christian."
It sounds strange to me to hear of someone saying they were Catholic and are now Christian.
There has been a similar shift in "baptism" and "Christening." These days if someone phones the church to ask about a Christening, it is a sure sign they have not been to church for a while, maybe a generation, as church members usually ask about a baptism service. In my childhood baptism was the sacrament at the heart of a Christening.
Posts: 111 | From: Canberra | Registered: Dec 2009
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Morgan
Shipmate
# 15372
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Posted
I have also heard some fundamentalist slander of Catholics as not "really" Christian but then these people tend to say the same of anyone, Catholic or otherwise, whose views are not identical to their own. In their case "not Christian" means "not like us."
Posts: 111 | From: Canberra | Registered: Dec 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Phos Hilaron:
Congratulations, The Silent Acolyte! You've just prodded me out of an extended period of lurking. I think it's a pond difference. Over here in South Korea, there is also this split between "Catholic" and "Christian". It confused me at first as well. In US English, I think "Christian" is just a synonym for protestant.
In Indonesia it is similar.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
The Open Brethren Assembly in Greater London that I grew up in regarded christians as those who were 'born again'. Attending, or being a member of, a church was not enough to make you a Christian in any denomination, and especially for Roman Catholicism, and it was expected that a RC who had a conversion experience would move to an (evangelical) protestant denomination.
It was the arrival at the assembly of a convent educated girl that made me,as a young teenager, review the opinions that the Roman Catholic Church was the Anti-Christ and that just because Rome may be built on seven hills this dis not make the RC church the whore of Babylon of Romans 17.
I would expect your approach to meeting these opinions varies with the person and situation and what you want to achieve, which is presumably to meet some need of that person.
The things you hear may be a way of the person expressing that they have had a spiritual growth, so maybe you could go with that.
I would expect that there would be times when you should side-step the issue or else you could shut down communication.
But there would also be times when you could challenge a prejudice and help someone broaden their vision, sometimes obliquely and sometimes with a direct denouncement.
In similar situations I have to regularly check my own motives to ensure I am not focused on satisfying my own needs such as to have (what I think is) the right view expressed.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
My experience here in Oz is that it's actually most likely Catholics who explicitly label themselves as "Catholic" rather than "Christian". Whereas Protestants will call themselves "Christian".
I wouldn't say that around here there's any kind of tendency for Protestants to therefore reason that Catholics aren't Christians, but I can certainly understand how that conclusion could be reached.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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manfromcaerdeon
Apprentice
# 16672
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Posted
In the early 1960s, there were two large notice boards at Cork airport, giving information about church services in the city. They were respectively headed, Catholic services and Christian services. No division was explicitly intended...Catholic meant exactly that, and Christian was simply all the others.
Perhaps the authorities felt it was more inclusive than using the term Protestant, which had political connotations in Northern Ireland.
Posts: 33 | Registered: Sep 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not sure it is a Pond difference. I've come across this distinction in the UK too, particularly among more hardline evangelical types.
I've even came across it on questionnaires where there are religious options and 'Catholic' and 'Christian' are given as separate tick-boxes. I've put this down to ignorance on the part of the compilers.
In essence, though, the term 'Christian' has become short-hand among many evangelicals for 'born-again Christian' or 'true Christian' or, as has been said, 'people who believe the same as us.'
Consequently, in such circles, it's not unusual to hear comments like, 'I wonder if the Archbishop of Canterbury is a Christian?' or 'The Queen is definitely a Christian ...'
The term 'Christian' in that sense, then, is used in a similar way to the word 'faithful' in RC or Orthodox contexts. I've sometimes heard the phrase, 'The Catholic faithful' or the 'Orthodox faithful' to refer to those who actively practice their faith and have more than a nominal or occasional observance.
That's how it comes across to me ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Cottontail
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# 12234
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Posted
From a Scottish perspective ...
Evangelical Christianity has always been very suspicious of any who might simply be going along to church for form's sake. In the past, this suspicion has been directed very much at mainstream Protestant Christians, often of the same denomination. This of course was at a time when the vast majority of people went to church on a Sunday, and where church attendance was equated with respectability and social conformity.
For Evangelicals, this was not enough to make you a Christian - and on the whole, I think this is to their credit. They retaught the mainstream Protestants that faith is self-involving, and that it ought to make a difference to your whole life, and not just to your Sunday routine. Whether or not one has had a 'born again' experience, an Evangelical would nevertheless look for an experiential 'heart faith' in Jesus in anyone claiming to be a Christian.
Now that society has gone all secular, this is less of an issue with mainstream Protestant churches. It is fairly safe to assume these days in the UK that a church-goer has a self-involving faith of some description.
However, from an outsider's perspective, Catholicism seems to have maintained a stronger hold on people's allegiance. The suspicion is that many Catholics still go along to church for form's sake, just as Protestants used to, and that their faith is neither personal (in Jesus) nor self-involving. Indeed, this may have been the actual experience of the person who said to you, that "I used to be Catholic, but now I'm saved." Also, the fact that the town you serve is culturally Catholic may have contributed to this perspective.
On the other hand, there has been a notable move within 'mainstream' evangelicalism of the past 20 years to share Bible Studies, etc, with Catholics who clearly (by their criteria) do have a living and personal faith. Evangelical Christians can often cross denominational boundaries very easily, and they can be quite relaxed about different faith practices and doctrines as long as they perceive a 'heart faith' in Jesus.
Maybe you could challenge the "Christian vs Catholic" perspective by speaking some of their language! ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) Talk loudly and long about Jesus, and speak from the heart about your prayer life and experience of faith!
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I regularly hear a few born again Christians state that Catholics are 'heretics' and are not True Christians. This strikes me as totally loopy, and, for one thing, ignorant about Christian history.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Offering another aspect of this conundrum, here's an exchange I had with someone (in the UK) a few years ago:
Them: Are you Catholic or Protestant?
Me, attempting to affirm a common faith despite not being in communion with the Holy See: Protestant, but I prefer to describe myself as Christian.
[ 06. July 2012, 08:24: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Definitely not a pond difference. I've had many a conversation with people about "Christian Catholics" or "There were loads of Christians there, and some were even Catholics ...".
I've had a handful were you could substitute "Anglican" for "Catholic" too.
As others have said, it tends to be a view more commonly found in evangelical circles, although not exclusively. I've always assumed that, at least in the UK, it's in part linked to the old Catholic/Protestant split and all that goes with it. And in part linked to the fact that a great number of people consider themselves to be Catholic without necessarily believing in God. As one friend put it many years ago "You're born a Catholic, and you don't stop being a Catholic just because you're an atheist now". Which was a bit silly and extreme, but does speak to an apparent cultural thing (and links in with non-conformists attributing the same sentiments to Anglicans).
All part of life's rich, divisive tribalism ...
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
I like your first answer SA. I have heard anti Catholic prejudice from those outside the RCC and trust me, the prejudice goes both ways as I also hear from many Catholics that the RCC is the true church and those who don't follow it's beliefs are heretics. AFAIC those who faith in the redemption brought by Christ and who follow him are Christians - whether Catholic or Protestant or Orthodox or Charismatic/Pentecostal. It's partly the deep divisions and prejudice amongst us that prevents or at least delays many from becoming Christian.
[ 06. July 2012, 08:28: Message edited by: Niteowl2 ]
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
OTOH, I think it depends on who's in the majority. The old "I'm normal because I hold the majority view and everyone else is weird" paradigm.
In much the same way that others have heard Protestants talking about "Christians" and "Catholics" I have heard French Catholics making the distinction between "Christians" and "Protestants".
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
In the evangelicalism in which I grew up, it was more or less axiomatic that Roman Catholics were not Christians, because they were depending on a mixture of sacraments and good works for their salvation, insread of trusting entirely in God's grace as manifested in Christ's life, death and resurrection.
The vast majority of global Christendom (Roman Catholic, Orthodox, non-Chalcedonian Eastern Orthodox, and I dare say a fair proportion of liberal Protestants) would not consider that we evangelicals are "really" Christian.
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Calindreams
Shipmate
# 9147
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Posted
The term that was bandied about in my old CofE church by some evangelicals was 'nominal Christians' who weren't actually Christians at all.
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Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore
Posts: 665 | From: Birmingham, England | Registered: Mar 2005
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
I've always heard it as a view ascribed to other people, rather than the speaker. Thus, a girl I was at university who was very involved with Christian Union activities and now works for a evangelical Anglican parish told me shortly after meeting me that 'some people think Catholics aren't really Christians, but I don't agree'.
The only other people I've heard try to draw a distinction are those who know so little about religion as to be confused completely. Mind you, explaining what Anglo-Catholicism is to members of the secular majority has always been a nearly impossible task in my experience.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Huntress
Shipmate
# 2595
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Posted
This is also a familiar scenario from my university days, when the CU handed out questionnaires to prospective members with separate boxes for 'Christian' and 'Catholic'. As the CU at the time would have been more accurately named ECU (Evangelical Christian Union) it made sense given what was known about their outlook.
When I graduated and began working as a lay chaplain, the Catholic Chaplaincy was approached by aggrieved Catholic students after student houses and halls had been leafletted with these questionnaires and who were getting questions / statements from 'friends' along the lines of 'so Catholics aren't really Christians then', something which I myself had experienced - including being totally blanked by the previously very welcoming leaders of Hall Fellowship (run by the CU) after they found out I was a Catholic.
I grew up in the Catholic faith and understood, as did my friends and relatives of various flavours of Protestant faith that there were several denominations, all of which came under the umbrella of 'Christian'.
The issue at university appeared to be with people who had been brought up to believe that their brand of Christianity was the only definition of "Christian" and the people who were drawn into that mindset having no previous experience of practising the Christian faith or who had had a total past-shunning conversion after a negative or indifferent experience.
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The Amazing Chronoscope
Posts: 431 | From: Lancashire / Nottingham | Registered: Apr 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
The vast majority of global Christendom (Roman Catholic, Orthodox, non-Chalcedonian Eastern Orthodox, and I dare say a fair proportion of liberal Protestants) would not consider that we evangelicals are "really" Christian.
I do not think that this is, or ever was, true. Christianity developed the concepts of heresy and schism right from the start (though the vocabulary may have developed later). And Evangelicals are heretics and schismatics to the vast majority of global Christendom, not non-Christians. One of the disadvantages of disallowing these words from polite discourse is that this important distinction disappears.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
I suppose the natural reaction for the RC students would be to ask the evangelical members of their age grade whether they intended to leave their 'ecclesial communities' to join the Church....
On a lighter note, I've often been tempted to respond to the ludicrous question 'have you accepted Jesus as your personal saviour' with 'certainly, m'dear, but tell me, have you accepted Mary as your personal Mediatrix?'
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Huntress
Shipmate
# 2595
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
On a lighter note, I've often been tempted to respond to the ludicrous question 'have you accepted Jesus as your personal saviour' with 'certainly, m'dear, but tell me, have you accepted Mary as your personal Mediatrix?'
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) I was never actually asked this, but oh, what a good reply. I couldn't have used it however, as it would have reinforced certain stereotypes.
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The Amazing Chronoscope
Posts: 431 | From: Lancashire / Nottingham | Registered: Apr 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
My first day at a Church of Christ run college, I was asked by a dozen people:
"Are you a Christian?"
Me: "Yes."
Them: "Oh! I heard you were a Presbyterian."
I have an issue with any Christian denomination that says the others aren't true Christians, including the Catholics, like the ones who taught my husband, who say all the rest of us are going to Hell.
Whatever happened to "Whosoever believes on him shall not perish?" I think anyone who believes that Jesus is Lord will probably go to heaven even if they think Joseph Smith really discovered those tablets or that if they send the TV pastor $100 they will get back $1000 or that if you use the hair color on the box you will look like the model on the cover, (my personal hang-up.) Surely nobody is going to Hell for being mistaken over the details? Or are we?
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
In Brazil, you'll often hear "Are you Catholic, or are you evangelical?" As if those would be the only options when you're a Christian. To many Brazilians, 'protestant' is a synonym of 'evangelical'.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
In Brazil, you'll often hear "Are you Catholic, or are you evangelical?" As if those would be the only options when you're a Christian. To many Brazilians, 'protestant' is a synonym of 'evangelical'.
In Mexico, the terms are "Catholic" and "Christian," but the situation AIUI is pretty much the same as you describe it for Brazil. BTW, both Catholics and Evangelicals there use this terminology, and no insult appears to be implied by it.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
I was told that Catholics were not Christian back when I was in an evangelical church. Both sides believe in and accept Jesus so that kind of thinking makes no sense to me.
As for the "And Catholics are not bible-believing" thing. Could this come from evangelicals being really keen on the importance of everyone reading their bible from cover to cover as opposed to a lot of Catholics (stereotypically?) not seeing this as so important?
Or maybe because its not a proper bible when you add the apocropher?
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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WhyNotSmile
Shipmate
# 14126
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Posted
As an evangelical, I've come across those who think "Catholic" cannot equal "Christian" (as opposed to "Catholic" does not necessarily equal "Christian", in the same way that "Methodist", "Presbyterian" "C of E", "Pentecostal" does not necessarily equal "Christian"). But I've come across (probably equally many) Catholics who, if asked "are you Christian?" will reply "I'm Catholic" or "No, I'm Catholic", which seems odd to me.
I've never come across a survey which pitted "Christian" against "Catholic" though - I've only ever seen "Catholic" vs "Protestant" (common here in Belfast) or "Catholic" in a list of denominations.
I'm increasingly less bothered about it though...
Posts: 528 | From: Belfast | Registered: Sep 2008
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Huntress
Shipmate
# 2595
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
As for the "And Catholics are not bible-believing" thing. Could this come from evangelicals being really keen on the importance of everyone reading their bible from cover to cover as opposed to a lot of Catholics (stereotypically?) not seeing this as so important?
Or maybe because its not a proper bible when you add the apocropher?
The Catholic position is that it's not a proper Bible if the Deutero-Canonical books (AKA the Apocrypha) have been removed. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I think the simple version of the 'Bible-believing' argument is that the Bible is extremely important to Catholics (that's actually rather an understatement) but it is not 'the sole authority in all matters of belief and behaviour' (quoting the CU doctrinal statement of a few years ago) because the Catholic Church holds that Tradition is important too.
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The Amazing Chronoscope
Posts: 431 | From: Lancashire / Nottingham | Registered: Apr 2002
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
A journalist, researching for an article on the complex political situation in Northern Ireland, was in a pub in a war-torn area of Belfast. One of his potential informants leaned over his pint of Guinness and suspiciously cross-examined the journalist: "Are you a Catholic or a Protestant?" the Irishman asked.
"Neither," replied the journalist; "I'm an atheist."
The Irishman, not content with this answer, put a further question: "Ah, but are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?"
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
There's also the story of ++Fisher's converstaion with a group of RC seminarians he met somewhere overseas on his travels. Roughly translated from the Latin (their common language) it went something like
'Excuse me, Monsignor (or whatever), but who are you?'
'I am the Archbishop of Canterbury.'
'Ah.... ' (title clearly means nothing to them)'...are you a Catholic?'
'Yes, but not what you mean by a Catholic'
'Oh. Are you then a Protestant?'
'Yes, but not what you mean by a Protestant.'
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
Nearly 20 years ago I was listening to French radio (as I was doing French evening classes at the time). Featured were the results of a survey. Of those surveyed (in France):
80% said that they were Catholic
50% said that they believed in God
30% said that they believed in Jesus
So, of those surveyed, at least 50% described themselves as Catholic but it would be hard to describe them as Christian.
So, the term 'Catholic' in some places is more a social or cultural term than an expression of religious belief.
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
When I was a Chaplain I heard the question all the time. I am sure it is a way of asking, " Are you Protestant or are you Catholic?"
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Looking at this from the other way round, for many Catholics there is either the Catholic Church or a vague, ominously amorphous mass called "Protestantism". Most Catholics seem not to have a very clear idea what the differences between the various Protestant groups are, and many assume that all Protestants are free-church evangelicals.
A friend of mine started dating a Catholic woman while he was in (Anglican) seminary. When the relationship began to get serious, he started to invite her to services at the chapel; when she finally showed up for an Evensong, she was shocked and surprised to find that we used the Lord's Prayer, made the sign of the cross, and in general conducted our services much like Catholics do. (They're now married and both attending the same Anglican parish, where he's preparing for his priestly ordination)
My point, I guess, is that it's not just evangelicals who construct these dichotomies.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Happy to be orthodox Christian, Protestant AND Catholic, just not distinctively Roman.
I have encountered EXACTLY what The Silent Acolyte has. People who describe themselves as having been Catholic and are now Christian.
As for Roman Catholics being heretic, they were among the earliest. Along with the Orthodoxen and Syriac. Muslims and Protestants are just later heretics. The very first were Jews who didn't convert.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Unreformed
Shipmate
# 17203
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
[QB] Looking at this from the other way round, for many Catholics there is either the Catholic Church or a vague, ominously amorphous mass called "Protestantism".
This is a very fair point. There's mainline liberal protestantism like TEC and the ELCA, confessional protestantism like the LCMS, evangelical protestantism like the SBC, the various tiny fundamentalist sects, and then mega-churches that I'm not even sure are Christian like the one Joel Osteen preaches at.
They're all quite different.
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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day
Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
(They're now married and both attending the same Anglican parish, where he's preparing for his priestly ordination)
What a very sad end to the story. I remember now why the Catholic Church discourages mixed marriages and requires a dispensation by proper ecclesiastical authority, which may only be granted if there is good reason to believe that it will not be prejudicial the the practice of the Catholic faith of the Catholic party.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Ah HAH IngoB ! Splendid. So by Roman Catholic criteria I'm a heretic, schismatic Christian, but not apostate ?
I feel positively included !
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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HCH
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# 14313
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Posted
I have never run into the either/or notion of Christian or Catholic. I an readily believe that many Roman Catholics would use the term "Catholic" rather than "Christian", and likewise for Orthodox. I think many Protestants would self-identify as "Christian". Still, asking such a question in those terms seems quite odd and (to some extent) offensive.
Are you a theist or an atheist? Are you a gnostic or an agnostic?
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Trisagion
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# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I feel positively included !
Which is, of course, the most important thing.
![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Unreformed
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# 17203
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Ah HAH IngoB ! Splendid. So by Roman Catholic criteria I'm a heretic, schismatic Christian, but not apostate ?
I feel positively included !
Since you don't recognize the full authority of the Catholic Church, why do you care what it says about you?
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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day
Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012
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Stetson
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# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Phos Hilaron:
Congratulations, The Silent Acolyte! You've just prodded me out of an extended period of lurking. I think it's a pond difference. Over here in South Korea, there is also this split between "Catholic" and "Christian". It confused me at first as well. In US English, I think "Christian" is just a synonym for protestant.
That distinction made its way into offical nomenclature as well. My first few years here, I had to fill out an immigration form, on which I was required to check a Religion box. "Catholic" and "Christian" were listed as separate options.
I haven't had to answer that question for a while now, so I think they must have dropped it, at least in South Jeolla Province.
[ 06. July 2012, 18:22: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Yerevan
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# 10383
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Posted
When I was growing up in an overwhelmingly Catholic part of Ireland in the 80s and 90s church-goers came in three flavours: Catholics, Protestants and 'Christians'. The first two were basically tribal designations, with 'Protestant' synonomous with membership of the Church of Ireland. 'Christians' were adherents of the various independent (generally charismatic) evangelical churches which were then popping up all over Ireland and attracting people from both backgrounds. 'Christians' tended to be seen a tribally neutral, distinct from traditional Protestants (who were sometimes stereotyped as a bunch of liberal agnostics ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ) and a little bit OTT.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
In my hometown, those who will answer, "I am a Christian" are those who attend the church that is literally called First Christian Church. This lines up with what those who attend First Lutheran, First Presbyterian, or First United Methodist would say.
Explaining to them that all the others are likewise Christian is futile, IME.
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
In Brazil, you'll often hear "Are you Catholic, or are you evangelical?" As if those would be the only options when you're a Christian. To many Brazilians, 'protestant' is a synonym of 'evangelical'.
Undoubtedly this is the German influence at work. The same thing happens with the current pope. When he refers to "evangelicals," he usually means the common German version of that word, as in the EKD (basically Lutherans and other organized Protestants in Germany). Of course, the American media often interprets it to mean the common American version of the word.
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
In my hometown, those who will answer, "I am a Christian" are those who attend the church that is literally called First Christian Church.
Explaining to them that all the others are likewise Christian is futile, IME.
That's pretty common with Restorationists of the Stone-Campbell lineage. I tend to treat their "We are the only/real Christians" line as a kind of verbal tic, best ignored out of politeness.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Given that the RCC is by far the largest brand of Christianity, the setting of one over the other is a category error.
Non sequitur
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
I've heard this distinction used in the Midwest, and from more than one Roman Catholic to boot. They were, however, all of the non-practicing sort.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
What a very sad end to the story. I remember now why the Catholic Church discourages mixed marriages and requires a dispensation by proper ecclesiastical authority, which may only be granted if there is good reason to believe that it will not be prejudicial the the practice of the Catholic faith of the Catholic party.
Working at the library of a Roman Catholic seminary, I've seen the old books on intermarriage, and I have to say I much prefer today's attitudes. I flipped through several of these tracts- I was working in the section, and not one of them could see the Roman Catholic party as responsible in the matter. Without fail, the issue was framed as wicked heretics luring good Catholic boys and girls away from the One True Faith with their wiles and lies.
[ 06. July 2012, 20:59: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Trisagion
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# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Working at the library of a Roman Catholic seminary, I've seen the old books on intermarriage, and I have to say I much prefer today's attitudes. I flipped through several of these tracts- I was working in the section, and not one of them could see the Roman Catholic party as responsible in the matter. Without fail, the issue was framed as wicked heretics luring good Catholic boys and girls away from the One True Faith with their wiles and lies.
Seems about right to me - as the Catholic party in a mixed marriage myself...oh, and BTW, today's attitudes are precisely the same. Still need dispensations from the impediment of mixed religion.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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