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Source: (consider it) Thread: What is the appeal of Christianity?
Mudfrog
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If you read history you will find that the Christians who did most for the present world were precisely those who thought most of the next. It is since Christians have largely ceased to think of the other world that they have become so ineffective in this.
C. S. Lewis

And two of my favourite verses from the Bible:

quote:
Job 19:25-27

25 I know that my Redeemer[a] lives,
and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.[b]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[c] in[d] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

and

quote:
1 John 3:1-3

3 How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,[a] we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

This is the wonderful thing about Christianity - Jesus, and fellowship with God for eternity.

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Maybe I wasn't clear in my prior post where I quoted CS Lewis' "Silver Chair". The after life and all the focus on it doesn't answer suffering in the present. In the now. In this world.

The immediate promise to some of us is only of a better current life, of something with integrity. The main problem with this in the general, societal case is that many alleged Christian lives show crappy lives without integrity, often dishonest and often deformed, and they often ignore the real problems and deep troubles people face, while they focus on other-worldly B.S. as a way of feeling good about being bad.

I suspect the tendency to focus on eternity, resurrection and all the miraculous stuff has a lot to do with Christianity's giving up of its role as the challenger to society and to the bad behaviour of its leaders and people, and marrying itself to political power.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Latchkey Kid
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
One has as much experience of God as one desires. And sometimes protracted periods of time without experience are a necessary stimulant to our desire.

Your 2nd sentence contradicts your first

Reminds me of Dylan's "Your debutante just knows what you need, But I know what you want." If you can see the connection.

--------------------
'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

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Latchkey Kid
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Psalm 37:4 contains the following exhortation and attendant promise:
quote:
Delight yourself in the LORD, and he will give you the desires of your heart.

I do believe the psalmist experienced this from time to time, but there are also more despairing passages, and the mixture is like my experience.

I think it debases the passage to read it as a formula for success, which is how it comes across, even if you did not intend it.

--------------------
'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Well, Christianity might offer a lot of conformity to institutional expectations, but Christ offers an easy life of service to others, rather than a hard life of extremely tedious and depressing self-obsession.

It depends on what one finds "easy" or "hard", I suppose. I don't doubt that there are those whose desires match perfectly with the teachings of Christianity, and for whom serving others comes easily.

quote:
As for 'self-denial'... I guess Christianity isn't the only ideology that thinks personal discipline is quite a good thing. Unbridled self-gratification has, I suggest, made a great many people deeply unhappy. Do feel free to disagree with me...
I shall [Smile]

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Psalm 37:4 contains the following exhortation and attendant promise:
quote:
Delight yourself in the LORD, and he will give you the desires of your heart.

I do believe the psalmist experienced this from time to time, but there are also more despairing passages, and the mixture is like my experience.

I think it debases the passage to read it as a formula for success, which is how it comes across, even if you did not intend it.

That'll be because the qualification contained in my original post, which was precisely designed in order to prevent such misapprehensions, was edited out for cheap convenience.
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Latchkey Kid
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quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Teaching about what happens after death is almost the definition of a religion and it is probable that death arouses the most questions about spiritual things. Atheists have nothing to say here.
*splutter, shock, horror* Hmmmmm!!! The word 'spiritual' applies to aspects of every single person's life. Why would you think that an atheist cannot be 'spiritual'? This word cannot be applied to religious belief only.
I quite agree that everyone is spiritual. I think shadeson was saying that atheism has nothing to say about what happens after death, and not really that it could have nothing spiritual in life.

OTOH, I think it is a poor religion that is focused on the after-life; and I do not agree that religion is mostly teaching about what happens after death.

--------------------
'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
One has as much experience of God as one desires. And sometimes protracted periods of time without experience are a necessary stimulant to our desire.

Your 2nd sentence contradicts your first.
I don't think it does. When your body needs water you experience a form of desire called thirst. Thirst is good only inasmuch as it indicates a need. It's the same with our need for God. Sometimes God will withhold himself from us precisely in order to make us thirst for him. Then, when he finally grants himself to us again, we take greater delight in him than we would in the context of unlimited supply.
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Latchkey Kid
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Psalm 37:4 contains the following exhortation and attendant promise:
quote:
Delight yourself in the LORD, and he will give you the desires of your heart.

I do believe the psalmist experienced this from time to time, but there are also more despairing passages, and the mixture is like my experience.

I think it debases the passage to read it as a formula for success, which is how it comes across, even if you did not intend it.

That'll be because the qualification contained in my original post, which was precisely designed in order to prevent such misapprehensions, was edited out for cheap convenience.
Looking back, I do not see any such qualification in the post I quoted from, nor in your previous post, and certainly nothing that would affect my comment on the Psalm verse. But if you can point it out, I'll reconsider.

--------------------
'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

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daronmedway
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That won't be necessary. What's been said is fine.
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Latchkey Kid
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That's convenient [Biased]
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daronmedway
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Yes.
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Alogon
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quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Sorry (again)... How is it "all about the next life"?

Look, for instance, at the seven deadly sins and their opposite virtues, e.g. Pride vs. humility, anger vs. patience, lust vs. chastity, gluttony vs. temperance. In every case, submission and renunciation are the way to go. St. Paul's theology developed the theme of the atonement, which opened once again for us the door to paradise in the next world which had been locked since Adam. We were to spread the gospel primarily for this reason.

It is no accident that the Christian faith initially spread figuratively (and sometimes literally) underground, among slaves and the lower classes. It promised them the joys in the next world that they were being denied in this-- provided that they remained humble and content with their lot. It is also no accident that the Christian faith was derided at the same time by the aristocrats, who said that it was fit only for slaves.

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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shadeson
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quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris: I think I've messed up the quotes slightly
The second one includes what someone else said - not wrong enough to worry.

The misunderstanding is more serious:
quote:
Why would you think that an atheist cannot be 'spiritual'? This word cannot be applied to religious belief only
I actually said "it is probable that death arouses the most questions about spiritual things"

Perhaps I might have added "in peoples minds" because its an awkward subject in the 21st century.

quote:
Do you think they should then be assured that it will come from something for which they cannot be given proof, but only be told that this is something they can believe?
That was my deliberate misquote.

-----------------------------
Read Studdert Kennedy's poem "Faith" ........

"how can you prove a man who leads, to be a leader worth the following, unless you follow to the death"

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Martin60
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From the top down I'm with Garasu first.

What's Christianity got to do with what happens after we die ? Why's it relevant ? God is the God of the living. It's about NOW.

Eternity will take care of itself.

--------------------
Love wins

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The Revolutionist
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quote:
Originally posted by shadeson:
Rather than get myself analysed, I am trying to see how Christianity can regain its appeal in the western world.

If Christianity doesn't appeal to the Western world, might it be the Western world that's at fault and not Christianity?
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Latchkey Kid
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Oh, Please. Not that old saw again, TR.

I do think that treating this life as some some sort of extended time in a Hogwarts Sorting Hat kind of misunderstands the Gospel.

[ 15. October 2012, 21:11: Message edited by: Latchkey Kid ]

--------------------
'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

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Alogon
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
the tendency to focus on eternity, resurrection and all the miraculous stuff has a lot to do with Christianity's giving up of its role as the challenger to society and to the bad behaviour of its leaders and people, and marrying itself to political power.

I totally agree. My previous post ended too soon. We must go on to say that this wasn't the end of the story. The upshot has been that in Christendom, slavery has yielded to egalitarianism and democracy. Far from dismissing this world in favor of the next, the church actually takes it more seriously than do most religions.

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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Martin60
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As long as Christianity is a function, an expression of the Western World, it's all but useless to the World.

--------------------
Love wins

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Latchkey Kid
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I probably agree with you Martin..., but your statement is a bit cryptic for me.

Care to expand, or are you intentionally non-specific?

--------------------
'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

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Sir Pellinore
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Western Christianity may well be, Martin, but Eastern Christianity, alive and well, is not.

I think we often forget Eastern Christianity.

--------------------
Well...

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
Western Christianity may well be, Martin, but Eastern Christianity, alive and well, is not.

I think we often forget Eastern Christianity.

Or Southern Christianity. It's all alive and well except Western Christianity.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Latchkey Kid
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The antipodes aren't doing that well, Freddy [Biased] .

--------------------
'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

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Alogon
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
As long as Christianity is a function, an expression of the Western World, it's all but useless to the World.

Don't you have cause and effect reversed? The church is largely the architect of the Western World since the fall of the Roman Empire.

As such, it will be relevant to the rest of the world as long as it hankers after the West.

--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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W Hyatt
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by shadeson:
I am trying to see how Christianity can regain its appeal in the western world.

If this is what you're after, then the only question you need to answer is:

What's in it for me?

What is Christianity actually offering people in this life? Is it something they actually want, or is it a hard life of service to others and self-denial?

In the same way God presented the Israelites with a choice between life and death when they were about to enter the land of Canaan, Christ also presents us with a choice between life and death. Each of the four Gospels contains a variation of this choice, which is also a promise:

quote:
For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
(Mt 16:25 - see also Mr 8:35, Lu 9:24, Lu 17:33, Joh 12:25)

John 12 in particular has a slightly different version:

quote:
He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.
He wants our joy to be complete and he tells us how to receive it. The problem is that in order to be able to receive it, we have to give up the parts of our life that are the most precious to us: the things that appeal to us on a very external level and that we think will make us happy. The things that we do and acquire without stopping to think about them because they feel good to us.

So in order to be willing to give up those things, we have to believe in him and trust him, that what he says is true and good. And when we begin to try to do what he says, it feels like we are giving up our happiness, and even our identity, for something that we are sure is dry and joyless, something that seems like it will surely be a virtual death.

But what he has promised us is that if we do give up these things for his sake, we will eventually discover that after we have given up our life, he has given us a new one that fills us and satisfies us in ways that we never could have imagined. He resurrects us in ways that we started out believing would be impossible. And my own belief is that while he fulfills his promise to us in this life enough to motivate us to continue on our path, the complete fulfillment waits for our eternal life.

This may sound like a variation of "if you'll behave, I'll give you a reward when this is all over," but I think the disparity between this life and our eternal life is necessary because of God's purpose for us in this life. Our purpose here and now is to make our choice in an environment that allows us to have access to both the good and the bad, an environment that allows them to be mixed together and exist side by side. But the very fact that our physical environment allows them both to coexist in such close quarters means that we can't experience either to the fullest extent possible.

Which is why the Bible is so full of references to judgment. The purpose of the physical world is to allow good and bad to coexist, but the purpose of the spiritual realm of the afterlife is to separate them completely. This is because complete separation is necessary to allow us to experience the fullest enjoyment of our choice. Judgment is simply this process of complete separation, which benefits everyone and prepares them for their eternal life, wherever it may be.

So I think Christ (and by extension, Christianity) offers us a choice and a paradoxical promise:

quote:
He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.
Without the eternal part, I don't think many of us would be willing to give up very much.

--------------------
A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
Without the eternal part, I don't think many of us would be willing to give up very much.

I heartily agree. Christianity only has an appeal to "the man in the street" because of what it offers in the next life. What it offers in this life is largely unappealing.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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Marvin the Martian

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(additional:)

quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
we have to believe in [God] and trust him, that what he says is true and good.

That's the hard part.

The really hard part.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Maybe I wasn't clear in my prior post where I quoted CS Lewis' "Silver Chair". The after life and all the focus on it doesn't answer suffering in the present. In the now. In this world.


I profoundly disagree. It is only if this life is all there is that suffering becomes meaningless and hopeless. In the light of eternity even difficult lives can be filled with hope.

There are those who have been able to withstand the most awful circumstances because of the certain hope of eternal life:

It is well with my soul is a testimony to the value of Christian faith in this life of suffering.

[ 16. October 2012, 11:33: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Maybe I wasn't clear in my prior post where I quoted CS Lewis' "Silver Chair". The after life and all the focus on it doesn't answer suffering in the present. In the now. In this world.


It is only if this life is all there is that suffering becomes meaningless and hopeless.
This I can agree with. As the great St. Martyn of Joseph said:

"If there is no bigger picture
Then this is obscene; this is all absurd"

HOWEVER - I don't think that solves the problem of suffering in this world; it merely places it within a wider context.

[ 16. October 2012, 11:36: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
Without the eternal part, I don't think many of us would be willing to give up very much.

I heartily agree. Christianity only has an appeal to "the man in the street" because of what it offers in the next life. What it offers in this life is largely unappealing.
let me list some of he temporal blessings of Christianity which you claim to find unappealling: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, hope, healing, forgiveness, fellowship, the Holy Spirit, redemption,. What's unappealling about these things? Even the most 'macho' man in the street would probably agree that at least one or two of these things are appealing.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
Without the eternal part, I don't think many of us would be willing to give up very much.

I heartily agree. Christianity only has an appeal to "the man in the street" because of what it offers in the next life. What it offers in this life is largely unappealing.
let me list some of he temporal blessings of Christianity which you claim to find unappealling: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, hope, healing, forgiveness, fellowship, the Holy Spirit, redemption,. What's unappealling about these things? Even the most 'macho' man in the street would probably agree that at least one or two of these things are appealing.
They're appealing to experience. I think a lot of people aren't too keen on being expected to express them.

Being forgiven, for example, is far more appealing than doing the forgiving. Especially if you enjoy a good grudge.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
He wants our joy to be complete and he tells us how to receive it. The problem is that in order to be able to receive it, we have to give up the parts of our life that are the most precious to us: the things that appeal to us on a very external level and that we think will make us happy. The things that we do and acquire without stopping to think about them because they feel good to us.

So in order to be willing to give up those things, we have to believe in him and trust him, that what he says is true and good. And when we begin to try to do what he says, it feels like we are giving up our happiness, and even our identity, for something that we are sure is dry and joyless, something that seems like it will surely be a virtual death.

But what he has promised us is that if we do give up these things for his sake, we will eventually discover that after we have given up our life, he has given us a new one that fills us and satisfies us in ways that we never could have imagined. He resurrects us in ways that we started out believing would be impossible. And my own belief is that while he fulfills his promise to us in this life enough to motivate us to continue on our path, the complete fulfillment waits for our eternal life.

[Overused] Well put.

quote:
This may sound like a variation of "if you'll behave, I'll give you a reward when this is all over," but I think the disparity between this life and our eternal life is necessary because of God's purpose for us in this life. Our purpose here and now is to make our choice in an environment that allows us to have access to both the good and the bad, an environment that allows them to be mixed together and exist side by side. But the very fact that our physical environment allows them both to coexist in such close quarters means that we can't experience either to the fullest extent possible.

Which is why the Bible is so full of references to judgment. The purpose of the physical world is to allow good and bad to coexist, but the purpose of the spiritual realm of the afterlife is to separate them completely. This is because complete separation is necessary to allow us to experience the fullest enjoyment of our choice. Judgment is simply this process of complete separation, which benefits everyone and prepares them for their eternal life, wherever it may be.

I'm not convinced of the either/or nature of this. I think that we can experience life in the physical environment to the fullest extent possible once we grow within the new spiritual life we've received. I believe that our bodies, minds, and spirits interact with each other to such an extent that if any one aspect is harmed or doesn't grow there's an inevitable impact on the other two. Wholeness comes only from God imv, another plus point for the appeal of Christianity.

Judgement from within relationship becomes a helping hand, to assist us on our spiritual progression in this life. The promise of the next life is exciting as it's deliciously mysterious, and the wonderful glimpses we're given leave us hungry and thirsty for it, but it's an added bonus: there's no emptiness in Christianity without it, imv.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
let me list some of he temporal blessings of Christianity which you claim to find unappealling: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, hope, healing, forgiveness, fellowship, the Holy Spirit, redemption,. What's unappealling about these things? Even the most 'macho' man in the street would probably agree that at least one or two of these things are appealing.

See, now we're getting somewhere. Maybe. Let's see.

First up, with the exception of the Holy Spirit (which is ill-defined in this list, with no indication of why the "man in the street" should want it) none of those things are exclusive to Christianity. In fact, most of them aren't even tangible offerings - joy, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control are personality traits, not things that can be offered to someone. I suppose you might mean that Christianity can teach someone to become patient, kind, gentle etc., but that's a different thing and is predicated on the assumption that the person you're offering to teach actually wants to learn.

Hope, healing, forgiveness and redemption are just more references to the next life. Unless you're claiming that Christianity counts as a form of healthcare that is so efficacious that it can be offered to "the man on the street" in the same way as a new medicine might be. Can Christianity offer healing as reliably as a hospital? If not, take it off this list.

That leaves us with love, peace and fellowship. Now, fellowship is a good one. I'm not going to deny that the chance to meet and befriend new people is a good thing. But again, it's hardly unique to Christianity - you could get exactly the same effect by joining a Bridge Club. I suspect peace here to be yet another reference to the next life, in an "all things will be well in the Kingdom" sense.

Which leaves us with love. Who could deny that love is a good thing? But this is a tricky one when we're talking about what Christianity has to offer in this life. Whose love? Demonstrated how? Given how? People may say "God loves you", but why should I care? What does it actually mean for my life? What difference does it make?

And here's the clincher: not one of those things you list is guaranteed to the new convert (except fellowship - that one stands, for what it's worth). They're all empty promises with no delivery. If the truth in advertising laws applied to religion you wouldn't be able to offer a single one to your target audience without reams of small print saying "but you might not get this" at the bottom of the poster.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Martin60
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No Alogon, the Church is Western. Greco-Roman above ALL. The impact of unadulterated Christianity, pure and undefiled on the development of Western civilization is not quantifiable. There is VERY little sign of it. If any. It's like looking for 'proof' of God in creation. It's post-hoc, in the eye of the beholder.
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daronmedway
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Well, I was thinking about it more in terms of what God offers us: forgiveness for example. I've had people - including former gangsters and drug dealers - cry on my shoulder like babies when I've explained that God forgives them.

What about love? There are people in my congregation - particularly single mums with violent former partners - for whom the love of Jesus has been a very real and experiential blessing.

What about redemption? I've led drug addicts to Christ who are staggered by the revelation that Jesus values them enough to die for them.

What about grace? I've introduced ex-Jehovah's Witness to the doctrine of grace and literally seen them come alive with joy and relief before my very eyes.

What about the Holy Spirit? I've seen people who have struggled for decades for any sense of reality in their faith finally understand the power and presence of Jesus in their lives by being filled with his Holy Spirit.

I could go on...

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Justinian
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quote:
Originally posted by shadeson:
Rather than get myself analysed, I am trying to see how Christianity can regain its appeal in the western world.

By first talking the talk of a better life and then walking the walk.

There is one Christian value in British society that stands out from secular society. Homophobic bigotry. This is one where Christians both talk the talk and walk the walk. And it is not of a better life.

Other than that, Christian values appear to be "be nice". And in many cases hypocritical - especially about material wealth (note: the Pope is the most obvious example - but the CofE is little better). I don't think there's been a famous example of someone really driving things forward from Christianity that wouldn't have done the same as an Atheist since Mother Teresa - and even she is highly controversial.

Ultimately what's going on is that liberal Christianity isn't presenting a vision, and conservative Christianity is presenting a vision - that will make the world worse. Neither of these are appealing. And few obviously walk the walk to make the world better - if I wanted ideas that won't work I'd join the Commies; at least they have a vision of what to do.

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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Well, I was thinking about it more in terms of what God offers us

Does He deliver though? Empty promises are empty promises whomever they come from.

quote:
former gangsters and drug dealers ... single mums with violent former partners ... drug addicts
So what about the normal, average "man on the street" who isn't a vicious criminal, abuse victim or drug addict? I can see exactly why such people feel the need for what Christianity offers, but what about those who feel they've already got plenty of love in their lives and who don't think they've done anything that particularly needs to be forgiven?

quote:
What about the Holy Spirit? I've seen people who have struggled for decades for any sense of reality in their faith finally understand the power and presence of Jesus in their lives by being filled with his Holy Spirit.
I could respond to the point about it taking decades with a rejoinder about how unappealing such a wait is, but I'm far more intrigued about this "power of Jesus in their lives" thing. What does that look like? What benefits does it offer, and what advantages does it provide?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Mark Betts

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# 17074

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It is well with my soul is a testimony to the value of Christian faith in this life of suffering.

It is indeed - did you hear the CCK Brighton (NF) version on "Songs of Praise" a week ago?

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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SusanDoris

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# 12618

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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris: the word 'holy' is applied to them; another word which I think should be redefined to remove its link with God/god/s
[Killing me] Why not use another word rather than try to change the meaning of the existing one?
Because a synonym of 'holy' would not have the same history and would need too long to establish itself as a replacement. Acgtually, I suppose people very often use the word 'holy' without including its godly overtones, so perhaps there is hope for it!
quote:
Is it all part of the grand plan to try to erase any mention of God from people's lives?
[Smile] Decidedly not, because it is extremely important that the teaching of history must include an understanding of how a belief in God/god/s cannot possibly be separated from events.

quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
I quite agree that everyone is spiritual. I think shadeson was saying that atheism has nothing to say about what happens after death, and not really that it could have nothing spiritual in life.

Yes, I'm sure you're right thank you!

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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SusanDoris

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quote:
Originally posted by shadeson:
The misunderstanding is more serious:
quote:
Why would you think that an atheist cannot be 'spiritual'? This word cannot be applied to religious belief only
I actually said "it is probable that death arouses the most questions about spiritual things"
Yes,my apologies. And I can't really use my screen reader as an excuse! [Smile]
quote:
Perhaps I might have added "in peoples minds" because its an awkward subject in the 21st century.
Hmmm, yes, it is, isn't it ... and will probably become more so.
quote:
That was my deliberate misquote.

Read Studdert Kennedy's poem "Faith" ........

I have just done that. I think he's entirely wrong about there being God; I could never return to faith in any interpretation of God.
I cannot express an opinion on its worth as a poem, as I do not have the necessary knowledge I'm afraid.

[ 16. October 2012, 13:50: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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SusanDoris

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# 12618

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Marvin the Martian, Super post = the one ending:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If the truth in advertising laws applied to religion you wouldn't be able to offer a single one to your target audience without reams of small print saying "but you might not get this" at the bottom of the poster.



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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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daronmedway
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# 3012

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Well, I was thinking about it more in terms of what God offers us

Does He deliver though? Empty promises are empty promises whomever they come from.

quote:
former gangsters and drug dealers ... single mums with violent former partners ... drug addicts
So what about the normal, average "man on the street" who isn't a vicious criminal, abuse victim or drug addict? I can see exactly why such people feel the need for what Christianity offers, but what about those who feel they've already got plenty of love in their lives and who don't think they've done anything that particularly needs to be forgiven?

quote:
What about the Holy Spirit? I've seen people who have struggled for decades for any sense of reality in their faith finally understand the power and presence of Jesus in their lives by being filled with his Holy Spirit.
I could respond to the point about it taking decades with a rejoinder about how unappealing such a wait is, but I'm far more intrigued about this "power of Jesus in their lives" thing. What does that look like? What benefits does it offer, and what advantages does it provide?

Yes, I think he delivers, but the evidence I offer is purely anecdotal, so it's up to you to accept it or not.

The people I've mentioned are normal and average. They are the people in my street. Heck, they are the people in my congregation and there's only about 80 of us! But I suppose the truthful answer to your question would be this: some sins are spectacular in their observable depravity, like violence and drug dealing. Other sins require more careful management because they undergird our sense of superiority; sins like pride and self-satisfaction. Normal and average includes drug dealers, single mums, business men, and people like you. I'm sorry to say it, Marvin, but you're not special. You're not he exception to the rule. No one is.

Finally, with regard to "having the power of Jesus in their lives" I would say this: it deals precisely with the question in this OP.

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SusanDoris

Incurable Optimist
# 12618

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George Spigot: Ditto (i.e. super post)

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Yes, I think he delivers, but the evidence I offer is purely anecdotal, so it's up to you to accept it or not.

Indeed. If I'm looking for something I want (love, say), I'm going to get it from a source that actually provides some evidence that it can and will come up with the goods, rather than one that expects me to trust it for no reason.

And that's why the love in my life comes from family and friends rather than religion. OK, some of the family and friends are people I met through church, but that's not the same thing.

quote:
The people I've mentioned are normal and average. They are the people in my street. Heck, they are the people in my congregation and there's only about 80 of us! But I suppose the truthful answer to your question would be this: some sins are spectacular in their observable depravity, like violence and drug dealing. Other sins require more careful management because they undergird our sense of superiority; sins like pride and self-satisfaction. Normal and average includes drug dealers, single mums, business men, and people like you. I'm sorry to say it, Marvin, but you're not special. You're not he exception to the rule. No one is.
OK, so because a gangster or drug dealer feels a massive amount of guilt (that only religion can assuage) I'm supposed to as well? Because an unfortunate woman without dependable family relationships feels an absence of love in her life (that only religion can replace), I'm supposed to as well?

quote:
Finally, with regard to "having the power of Jesus in their lives" I would say this: it deals precisely with the question in this OP.
That's a total non-answer.

OK, so Christianity is offering the power of Jesus in people's lives. Even assuming that's something that actually exists, the question of why anyone should want it remains. What benefits or advantages does it give them in this life?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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mousethief

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Susan, what non-God meanings are there for Holy? It means "set apart for God." Here's what you get when you google \define holy\

1. Dedicated or consecrated to God or a religious purpose; sacred: "the Holy Bible"; "the holy month of Ramadan".

2. (of a person) Devoted to the service of God: "saints and holy men".

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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daronmedway
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Marvin. I think you should feel ashamed of your sin, not the sin of anyone else. Apparently, your sins, as you like to point out, are more sophisticated and less serious than those of other people. That may be true.

By he same token, you seem to believe that your spiritual needs are fewer that those of other people. Again, that may also be true. But the fact that someone else has a particular, and perhaps more pressing need, for God's love is no reason for you to think that your need is less significant to God.

You should experience shame concerning your own sins. And you should experience feelings of desire concerning your own needs. Start there.

[ 16. October 2012, 16:29: Message edited by: daronmedway ]

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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Is it all part of the grand plan to try to erase any mention of God from people's lives?
[Smile] Decidedly not, because it is extremely important that the teaching of history must include an understanding of how a belief in God/god/s cannot possibly be separated from events.

You're trying to limit God to the past, and consign God to history. God is very much a part of people's lives in the present and will be in the future too, in my view. What needs to be consigned to history is some of the theological baggage we've accumulated and which still spreads on the breezes of urban myth.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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SusanDoris

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Thank you for this post! [Big Grin]
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Susan, what non-God meanings are there for Holy? It means "set apart for God."

Oh dear!! [Smile] *puts on dunce's cap and turns slightly pink*!!
I was thinking - anything that is given the adjective 'holy' has been written or made or assigned that description. This does not turn any such artefact into something different.

I started a dis cussion elsewhere a couple of years ago to ask why anything should be called holy since there is no way that would enable someone to tell it was supposed to be holy, unless told so by a person.
quote:
Here's what you get when you google \define holy\

1. Dedicated or consecrated to God or a religious purpose; sacred: "the Holy Bible"; "the holy month of Ramadan".

Nothing in itself can be holy; it must be designated so by a human being and since, as far as I'm concerned, there is no god anyway, I never use the word.
quote:
2. (of a person) Devoted to the service of God: "saints and holy men".
This makes it sound as if 'holy' people are more equal than the rest of us!!

On the whole then, I think the word 'holy' should disappear completely! I don't think the same applies to 'sacred', since this is used to refer to things, ideas, places =, etc that people consider sacred to them.

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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SusanDoris

Incurable Optimist
# 12618

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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Is it all part of the grand plan to try to erase any mention of God from people's lives?
[Smile] Decidedly not, because it is extremely important that the teaching of history must include an understanding of how a belief in God/god/s cannot possibly be separated from events.

You're trying to limit God to the past, and consign God to history.
Ah, no, I did not intend to imply that, since history must always include everything up to the present.

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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Truman White
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# 17290

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From Marv our resident Martian

Hope, healing, forgiveness and redemption are just more references to the next life. Unless you're claiming that Christianity counts as a form of healthcare that is so efficacious that it can be offered to "the man on the street" in the same way as a new medicine might be. Can Christianity offer healing as reliably as a hospital? If not, take it off this list.

I'm touched by your faith in hospitals. Most people in hospital beds have long- term health conditions. Hospitals aren't places that heal people, they help people manage their health conditions. Prayer plays a part in that for many folks. Your views of hospitals is so nineteenth century.

Forgiveness isn't for the next life, it's for this one. As is redemption. Redemption is a new alignment towards God. We get forgiven because we get free to live for Christ. We all need forgiveness to maintain a healthy relationship with anyone. But since you say you don't have a relationship with God I can understand why you relegate forgiveness to the afterlife.

That's not a crack by the way - I understand why you say it and why for you it makes sense. But for people who have a relationship with God, forgiveness is an ever present, and essential daily reality. It's why Jesus told us to pray 'forgive us our debts/sins.' in fact, the Lord's prayer is all about this life. Think about that the next time you say it/hear it in church.

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