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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: You can't leave without shaking my hand
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Last time I went to a parish RC mass, the priest was by the door and shock my hands and we exchanged polite words.
At my previous church, I always went into the church hall for tea - which was off the main nave - so I was never part of any queue. I think the vicar just hang around at the back and chatted to anyone as appropriate. (He'd always introduced himself to any strangers in the congregation before the service.)
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Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Huh.
It's funny but when a couple of cradle RC friends of mine (one Polish, 'tother Irish) joined me for worship at an Anglican cathedral, the thing that they found most unusual was the queue to shake hands. They wondered if it was a blessing of some kind - I had to explain that it was just a rather formal way of being friendly, and that one Always Does It.
Does anyone know how far back it goes? In costume dramas one always sees Mr. Collins greeting each worshipper outside the church porch, with levels of bowing and scraping appropriate to their respective stations, but I think we all know it is not always wise to trust television in this respect! Would it actually have been common in Britain in, say, the eighteenth century? Earlier?
In the eighteenth century the congregation would have fecked off sharpish as they would have been frozen and hungry, and the priest would have headed home to thaw out and eat lunch. The "Sociables" would have been dealt with in the every day process living in a village. The formal line up at the back of the church is relatively modern (and tediously essential!)
PD
[ 12. June 2012, 07:21: Message edited by: PD ]
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
I know some churches, which are part of a larger group, where the vicar has to run away a soon as the service ends, so that they can reach one of the other churches in time for the Eucharistic prayer.
I came across one in the Lake District, where there was a designated driver for the clergy, who had the car ready and waiting, to drive the vicar the several miles to the next church. This priest had 4 Communion services on a Sunday and never got to shake a hand.
It may be a solution for those who do not like handshaking to find a church like this…
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Bax
Shipmate
# 16572
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Posted
In my opinion, the clergy should be available to talk at the end of a service and make the effort to at least say "good morning" to a new face.
However, if people want to slip away without saying anything to you then this should be quite clearly acceptable and not "being rude".
Where the priest stands in relation to the door avoiding, "pouncing" on people etc. can make this half-way house possible...
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
The secret is to have two doors.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bax:
In my opinion, the clergy should be available to talk at the end of a service and make the effort to at least say "good morning" to a new face.
However, if people want to slip away without saying anything to you then this should be quite clearly acceptable and not "being rude".
Where the priest stands in relation to the door avoiding, "pouncing" on people etc. can make this half-way house possible...
I think this is what I'm getting at - at the moment the clergy basically block the exit, and when there's more than one cleric, it immediately looks like a wedding line-up: even less natural.
I think it makes me uncomfortable because I feel we are making things awkward for those who would rather make a discreet exit. Those who want to talk to us will always find us, especially if we're near the door without actually intercepting everyone trying to use it. It's a challenge, though, in a small church that doesn't have a 'standing around' area except the central aisle - pews all the way to the back, door halfway down the side.
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Why not remove some pews by the door to provide space for the handshake, with space for others to get past.
The churches I have been members of have always had the minister* at the back shaking hands. At two of these churches that's been the door to leave the church building, with a door at the front of the church leading through to the halls and coffee, so only those who are not staying for coffee get the handshake on exit (the minister, if not going on elsewhere, then does the rounds over coffee). At the other churches there are either no alternate exits (except fire escapes) or they're basically not used and everyone passes the minister. Both have enough space in the church for people to mingle and chat before leaving so a queue rarely forms. There's enough room at the exit to get past, I frequently walked back and forth past the minister while he was shaking hands (if, for example, I was colleting communion glasses and taking them to the kitchen or simply chasing children). It doesn't actually require much room for that to happen - just the width of double doors is enough. Providing there's space for people to mingle so there isn't a mad rush for everyone to get to the tea and gossip time.
* or, whoever was leading worship (ie: preaching).
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Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sacred London:
The secret is to have two doors.
Well marked alternative exit, for fire safety. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
Some breeds of honeybees include 'fragrancy bees' whose task is to take a position at the entrance to the hive, beat their wings continuously, and emit a gentle fragrance. Bees seeking to find their way back to the hive are assisted in this way, both by fragrance and by some sort of sonar signal emitted by the beating wings.
Now, I am not certain that clergy are, or should be particularly redolent, but certainly, their action in shaking hands is somewhat similar to the action of a bee beating its wings.
So I, for one, always try to greet people on their way into the church, as well as on the way out, in the hopes that this action will help those seeking the church to find it through God's mysterious interaction, using me as a sort of bewildered sonar conduit.
For a more direct display, try serving seedless watermelon to the congregation, under a shade tree on the front lawn of the church on summer Sunday mornings. To passersby, you will, or should look something like a Norman Rockwell painting, and perhaps they will want to be part of that.
[added a little watermelon fragrance]
[ 13. June 2012, 18:31: Message edited by: Silver Faux ]
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I know that when I'm leading worship I'm not able to greet everyone as they come into church. For a start, with young children, I can't be there as early as some people (it would be unfair on the kids to have them hang around longer than necessary). And, probably similarly with most preachers, I want to spend a few minutes quiet before starting - and that's after checking with the church secretary that there's no member of the church I need to mention specifically in intercessions, that the person reading the Scriptures is there and going to read what I've prepared for, that I know who will be assisting with Communion (not that it really matters, but it's good to know there will be someone and I won't have to take the elements around the church myself!), and a range of other practical matters that mean I can't be there to welcome the last few people into church. That's before we come to the issue of the rare occasion of people arriving after I've got to the front and said "Good morning" to the whole congregation.
Of course, we have other people who give everyone a friendly "good morning" and hand shake, along with a hymn book, as they come in. I've not heard them buzzing, but maybe I should pay more attention on Sunday.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Panda: And most crucially, when you're the minister, the awareness (I find personally) that there are a number of people who would rather sidle past, or nip out a different door, or being new, feel embarrased at being made to shake your hand and come up with something to say.
The church I visited as a child, had three doors. Most people would have 'fixed' places where they would sit every week, and consequently a fixed door where they would get out.
This lead to a kind of rotation scheme, where the preacher would shake hands at a different door every Sunday. It was actually part of the announcements, like: "Today the preacher will shake hands at the East door"!
I would always make sure I'd exit the church through a different door. If I'd want to talk to the preacher or shake his hand, I'd find other moments to do that.
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I would always make sure I'd exit the church through a different door. If I'd want to talk to the preacher or shake his hand, I'd find other moments to do that.
[italics mine]
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) As in, 'Vicar, I'd like to shake your hand. You free about five o'clock next Wednesday?'
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
That's before we come to the issue of the rare occasion of people arriving after I've got to the front and said "Good morning" to the whole congregation.
The rare occasion! Is that a denomination or Hadrian's Wall related difference? In my experience half or more of the congregation arrives after the start... especially those with children.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
It might be a "my choice of church" thing. For the last few years we've been the family with children, and very rarely not there with enough time to settle in before the service starts. Our last church had a 10am service, and was only a couple of minutes walk. Our current church has an 11.30 service (same pastorate as the last, so time for the minister, when we get one, to get from one church to the next) and so getting there on time is no difficulty at all - although it does tend towards a more rapid departure past the hand shake as people want lunch. We visited a CofS place the other weekend while away, and again for a 10am service if people did arrive late they were very discrete in coming in and sitting in the couple of pews behind us (the only people I was aware of moving around back there were the stewards who'd been on the door).
Before moving here I was in Methodist Churches in Liverpool and Watford. In both cases it was rare for people to arrive late (but common enough that door stewards didn't close the doors and enter the church until the first hymn just in case). Both those were larger congregations than any I've been part of here, so it may be a size thing.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
It is pretty common here for folks to drift in up to the Gospel. However, a slight discouragement to this practice is provided by the fact that the doors are closed during the first hymn, so it is difficult to sneak in after that.
Most churches I have ever been in have had one or two chronic stragglers. This rose to about a quarter of the congregation when the parish I then lived in changed to doing the notices at the beginning of the Parish Eucharist. The Vicar was one of those types that run off at the mouth. The notices would take 10-15 minutes, and as the main service was stupid early - 09.30 - the parishioners took the opportunity for another cup of tea, or an extra 10 minutes in bed before church.
PD
[ 15. June 2012, 18:35: Message edited by: PD ]
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
We have people arriving up to an hour after the start. Most are in in the first ten minutes, but there have been Sundays with twice as many communicants as were present at the 10.30 kickoff.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
We have one particular family, who for the sake of argument (and because that's what they're called) we'll call the Munros, who always arrive 25 minutes late for Mass, which - this being the Catholic Church in England - lasts just under the hour. When ai've been not on duty, I've been up the road for a paper after the 10:30am Mass has started, only to see them in Costa ordering a coffee before tootling down the hill just in time to miss the homily.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I was always under the impression that you had to be present by the reading of the Gospel to fulfil Sunday obligation, and to be able to licitly receive the Eucharist?
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Even more so than I was before
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And where would Jesus have stood?
He would have been carried past in a sedia gestatoria
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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PataLeBon
Shipmate
# 5452
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Sacred London:
The secret is to have two doors.
Well marked alternative exit, for fire safety.
Not helpful when you have two (or more) priests. Ours split up to cover all of the doors.
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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)
Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004
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mettabhavana
Apprentice
# 16217
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Posted
quote:
"We never shake hands with a clergy...[shaking his hand would] express that we do not recognize his power of forgiving sins and blessing...."
[RANT]That's the most bizarre piece of twaddle I've read in many a long week (and my day job serves up plenty of twaddle!)[/RANT]
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And are we yet alive?
Posts: 39 | From: London, England | Registered: Feb 2011
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Japes
Shipmate
# 5358
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bax:
However, if people want to slip away without saying anything to you then this should be quite clearly acceptable and not "being rude".
I think this is part of the problem, for me. There are differing standards of what constitutes rude.
I have been told at church today I am considered rude for not wanting to exchange the Peace with everyone, and am now seriously considering slipping out to the porch to wait until the Peace is over. I was so taken aback, I couldn't say "Well, I consider it rude to tap me on the arm, then when I've not moved, shove your hand under my face, when I'm sitting with my head down for the purposes of not having to shake hands with more than five people."
I did, for once, stop to exchange a few words with the vicar on my way out, and as I usually do go out the "Other Door" to avoid the long, tedious queue. it was a quick question, that required a Yes or No answer. Anything longer, I get in contact with the clergy on another day.
Sighs deeply...
[ 17. June 2012, 11:52: Message edited by: Japes ]
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Blog may or may not be of any interest.
Posts: 2013 | From: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: Dec 2003
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Sacred London:
The secret is to have two doors.
Well marked alternative exit, for fire safety.
Not helpful when you have two (or more) priests. Ours split up to cover all of the doors.
They really don't want you to get out except on their terms!
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Anybody gives you crap for not shaking hands, look them straight in the eye and say one word:
quote:
Arthritis
Idiots.
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Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
We have one particular family, who for the sake of argument (and because that's what they're called) we'll call the Munros, who always arrive 25 minutes late for Mass, which - this being the Catholic Church in England - lasts just under the hour. When ai've been not on duty, I've been up the road for a paper after the 10:30am Mass has started, only to see them in Costa ordering a coffee before tootling down the hill just in time to miss the homily.
Och, naughty Scots. And to think, I felt badly about arriving (despite my very best efforts) at last night's vigil Mass just as the homily began because I'd missed the Gospel. I'd been working, and I stayed to the end (well, the dismissal anyway - the post-diss "hymn" was ghastly) and communicated, but wondered if I'd really fulfilled my obligation. I was almost thinking of making an evening Mass today to make sure...
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
I'm CofE and I was tought that you had to be for the confession and absolution to take communion.
I know somebody who was refused communion (this was a few years back) because they arrived after the absolution.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
I do know people both CofE and RC, who think that worship is purely about taking the sacrament and do not take any other part of the service seriously. Maybe the Munroes are of this persuasion?
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
I tend to set up shop at the door before church and then again after. You gotta talk to me going both ways. But then, there are several doors to the church, so if you want to avoid me it's pretty easy.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
I'm CofE and I was tought that you had to be for the confession and absolution to take communion.
I know somebody who was refused communion (this was a few years back) because they arrived after the absolution.
I was taught that too, though my parish minister would have been just as happy to hear one's confession after Evening Prayer on Saturday. As a result I have tended to refrain from using a liturgy where the general confession and absolution are moved up front, thoug I personally think that that arrangement is structurally better.
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Anybody gives you crap for not shaking hands, look them straight in the eye and say one word:
quote:
Arthritis
Idiots.
I do like to hold up a wadded/preferably snotty tissue in one hand, and wave apologetically with the other! (Of course, I only do this when I am sick.)
[ 18. June 2012, 22:11: Message edited by: Martin L ]
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