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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is high Anglicanism still allowed to be fun?
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Agree with Leo but it doesn't preclude having fun. Doctors and surgeons and funeral directors frequently use in house jokes and amusement amongst themselves which would be shocking to the rest of us.
I remember the first time I encountered that AC 'Oooo look at her!' Frankie Howard-Larry Grayson High church theological college humour. I had to lie on the floor to get my breath back it was so funny.
The (welcome) openness in sexuality has probably led to a demise of some of this, but not quite. There was something amusing and slightly freemason-like about sexuality in the past in these circles that could be very amusing.
A clerical friend said 'I used to prefer it much more when it was behind the bikesheds and exclusive. Now being 'gay' is so common.'
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
....and SERIOUS.'
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sebhyatt
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
sebby, there are times to split your sides, but the Eucharist may not be an appropriate one.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
However much the gin-and-lace brigade amused themselves back in the presbytery, when it came to the liturgy they were often amongst the most po-faced of the lot. Just look at some of the pictures posted on the 'videos' thread.
I think (well I would, being a woolly Anglican) that there is a happy medium between treating worship as a stand-up entertainment and as a boring duty. ('It is not only right, it is our duty and our joy.')
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I remember the first time I encountered that AC 'Oooo look at her!' Frankie Howard-Larry Grayson High church theological college humour. I had to lie on the floor to get my breath back it was so funny.
Personally, I find
this a little dated.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
What an interesting discussion!
Personally I hope some high ritual is done with a twinkle in the eye, a sense of playfulness before the Lord. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I fear that we may be a bit too serious in worship at times, then, maybe, it's just God who has the fun in smiling at the po faces.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I remember the first time I encountered that AC 'Oooo look at her!' Frankie Howard-Larry Grayson High church theological college humour. I had to lie on the floor to get my breath back it was so funny.
Personally, I find
this a little dated.
Dated, yes. And I can see why people now might be offended by old-fashioned high camp. But I must admit to a sort of militant nostalgia. It's like Harvey Fierstein's drag queen character says in Torch Song Trilogy - "Well, once the ERA and Gay Civil Rights Bills have been passed, me and mine will find ourselves swept under the carpets". He was right. We've assimilated. We've become polite, middle class, inoffensive heterosexual role-players. Hell, we might as well introduce beige as a liturgical colour - for every season.
And Percy Blakeney, you have a point about a sense of playfulness. There's a lovely couple of lines in an old Doctor Who story that go something like -
"Are you serious?"
"About what I do, yes. Not necessarily about how I do it."
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
Indeed! I like to think God likes to watch his children playing.
Worship should have an element of fun.
Too often it comes across as didactic - to educate people rather than joyful worship.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Hell, we might as well introduce beige as a liturgical colour - for every season.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) So tasteful! So C of E!
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
And Percy Blakeney, you have a point about a sense of playfulness. There's a lovely couple of lines in an old Doctor Who story that go something like -
"Are you serious?"
"About what I do, yes. Not necessarily about how I do it."
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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insert amusing sig. here
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
...rather rabid church poofters who are rapidly...
I don't think this type of language furthers discussion. Please refrain from it in future.
seasick, Eccles host
You're the host here, seasick, so I will of course do whatever you wish. In addition, my apologies are extended for any offense taken by anyone, if that might be so.
If I may, however let me identify myself publicly as a gay Episcopalian with a solid Anglo-Catholic background of many years and a good theological education. I have also been of the closet as gay man for a long time.
I could go further and be more specific about my identity, by let's just say that I have been a part of and seen the culture of church fun from the from the inside; the good and the bad. So having been a part of all that myself, I cast no aspersions on anyone or any group as a critic or by using perjorative terminology. Instead, I merely meant to be humorous, but it seems that did not come across properly. Hence my sincere apologies.
*
Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy Blakeney:
Indeed! I like to think God likes to watch his children playing.
Worship should have an element of fun.
Too often it comes across as didactic - to educate people rather than joyful worship.
There's fun and then there's utter Christian joy which takes you out of yourself.
God save us from the "educative function".
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Well...
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mettabhavana
Apprentice
# 16217
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Hell, we might as well introduce beige as a liturgical colour - for every season.
Has been known in Methodism.
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And are we yet alive?
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
One thing I have come to realise is that one can leave Anglo-Catholicism, but it does not leave you. Oddly my departure from narrow Anglo-Catholicism into a broader form of High Churchmanship was prompted by having to deal with the old-fashioned version pedalled in the continuum. Culturally I have more in common with the Common Worship in an Vatican II wrapper variety of Anglo-Catholicism than the Trent Preservation Society type. The latter is a variety of Anglo-Catholicism which I like to visit but not dwell in, perhaps because I realise deep down that the Church has moved on, though the jury is out on how far.
I am very much a product of the sort of Anglo-Catholicism coming out of Staggers in the mid-1980s, which definitely post-Vatican II, but still had a bit of a hankering for the old ways. However, there was definitely a sense in which they wanted to be more at peace with mainstream Anglicanism. However, that did not put a damper on the parties because I can remember some fairly serious post-High Mass piss-ups and the cotton wool heads that followed. The new seriousness came later - probably in the 1990s when there was a very real sense of having our backs against the wall. It was also noticeabe that some of the stauncher part animals had left for Rome or committed matrimony by that time which tended to break up our circle. Before 1995 one could always be sure of replacements coming along, but at that point things went very seriously downhill.
PD
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
Hence my sincere apologies.
I’ve been posting here for eleven months, and although I’ve seen a number of hostly reproofs, I can’t remember many if any sincere or convincing apologies. Thank you very much Rob.
I have serious doubts about the motivation of the OP, but I think it does bring up some important points about irony, sexuality, a sense of the ridiculous, drama and so forth in the Christian life.
When I saw Rob’s post I thought here was another pompous straight liberal man, ignoring that aspect.
Seeing where he’s coming from, I fully sympathise, as one poofter to an another, with him having to be called “Roberta” at college and whatever other silliness. Thank heavens I never went to theological college in those days.
[ 10. August 2012, 17:20: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
...rather rabid church poofters who are rapidly...
I don't think this type of language furthers discussion. Please refrain from it in future.
seasick, Eccles host
You're the host here, seasick, so I will of course do whatever you wish. In addition, my apologies are extended for any offense taken by anyone, if that might be so.
If I may, however let me identify myself publicly as a gay Episcopalian with a solid Anglo-Catholic background of many years and a good theological education. I have also been of the closet as gay man for a long time.
I could go further and be more specific about my identity, by let's just say that I have been a part of and seen the culture of church fun from the from the inside; the good and the bad. So having been a part of all that myself, I cast no aspersions on anyone or any group as a critic or by using perjorative terminology. Instead, I merely meant to be humorous, but it seems that did not come across properly. Hence my sincere apologies.
*
Correction: That sentence in my second paragraph above should read, "I have also been out of the closet as a gay man for a long time."
*
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
I'm not old enough to remember life before the FiF/AffCath divide, but I sense that religion was more "fun" then for obvious reasons.
I think life in general is less fun now and I think fear is at the root. We hear it said all the time - Where are all the characters now? Keeping our heads down with good reason.
People take themselves too seriously now and many are, often, rightly afraid to be themselves. Mistakes are not tolerated and lead to exclusion. The result is a society based on appearance alone. Some of our wisest & most charismatic people are kept to the fringes.
Gone is the fun of the gentleman amateur - here is the age of the miserable expert.
Rant over!
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
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Cryptic
Shipmate
# 16917
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Posted
Vaticanchic - your points are very nicely summed up in this article from the Sydney Morning Herald - Death of the Ratbag. It's from a few years ago now (and very Oz-centric) but the point about conformity is well made.
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Illegitimi non carborundum
Posts: 225 | From: Sydney | Registered: Feb 2012
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
The parish I work in is not Anglo-Catholic, but I think that the rector would like it more so ideally. Anyway, IMHO his sermons keep getting better and better, and the Holy Gospels from St. John that that the lectionary has given us in recent weeks have really inspired him. He deserves a much larger audience.
Last Sunday he mentioned Madeleine L'Engle's suggestion to the effect that we believe Jesus
to have been fully a human being who walked on water. Therefore, she said, if we can't do so as well, perhaps it is because we have forgotten how.
Maybe, he continued, what we have forgotten is the necessary lightness of heart, and too seldom does church life help us with that shortcoming anymore.
For example, we might focus so much on the Eucharistic elements and their mystical meaning, about which many fine and learned books have been written, that we overlook what we do with them. To remember Jesus in the Eucharist must include remembering someone who loved the social experience of sharing a meal with friends. This must be one reason why He chose this as act to be our most distinctive connexion with Him. Whatever the Eucharist may be, it should never be joyless.
Perhaps my picture of Anglo-Catholic life in its remarkable heyday is somewhat romanticized (since a tinge of romanticism is of the essence). But
it does seem from numerous anecdotes that part
of the genius of those Puseyite slum missionaries was the sense of fun with which they set about
turning the social order on its head-- exalting the humble and meek. They were hard-working and dedicated, but they were also "characters." Since that time, parts of the church, including parts of Anglo-Catholicism, have been hijacked by cultural warriors intent instead on keeping the mighty on their seats. Good humor doesn't tend to be useful in such a project.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
I'm not old enough to remember life before the FiF/AffCath divide, but I sense that religion was more "fun" then for obvious reasons.
<big snip>
Gone is the fun of the gentleman amateur - here is the age of the miserable expert.
Rant over!
My dim recollection is that the FIF/AffCath divide opened up around 1990. We always knew the Movement had a liberal wing and a traditional wing, but the whole matter had been dealt with by using humour.
"Don't mine him, dear, he's just a Prot in a chasuble!" Or "Pray for him, he went to Westcott House."
It turned nasty about 1990, then came the split and grey suits. The whole experience was very painful and I nearly left Anglicanism and Christianity altogether. In the end it was a matter of having to be where I could receive the sacraments. For me, at least, that's when the fun kind of went out of it, and being an Anglo-Catholic increasingly became a matter of being allowed to survive. As a symtom of what was happening, I seem to recall that the last of the really epic Anglo-Catholic parties I attended was in 1993/4 since then things have gotten a whole lot tamer.
As for 'the Gentleman Amateur' I am afraid the grey suits are hounding him to extinction. I hang on to as much of the old spirit as I can, but every one seems to be afraid and so bloody serious these days. They are scared of the lawyer, the rule book, the code of practice, political correctness and all the other garbage we have enslaved ourselves with. We seem to have bred a generation of priests who won't take a chance and go into panic mode when they get something that is not in the handbook. The phrases 'close enough' and 'not ideal but we can work with it' seem to have been forgotten, and 'think for yourself' has been banned. Anglo-Catholicism is in danger of becoming boringly middle class and safe. I fear Affirming Catholicism has already achieved it - a bit like New Labour really.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
I don't believe that "middle class and safe" is a preserve of either side of the FiF/AffCath divide (I use FiF through gritted teeth, but that's more of a hellish conversation). Neither of the congregations I have been part of which have significant FiF tendencies have been notable for their engagement with under-privilege. Instead, they have been notable for taking for granted the death of liturgy as a living tradition and picking over its bones, trying to give it the most exact replica they possibly can of its movements in life at a given point in history.
That feels a little unkind, but I believe very strongly that this at least the effect if not the intention of obsession with handbooks and liturgy as historical reenactment. The true nature of liturgy is not historical reenactment; it is an invitation to the holy spirit to enter into the life of the church as the whole body of Christ now. It needs the kind of organic engagement, not the kind of forensic attention to isolated detail it tends to gets from fanatics.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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mettabhavana
Apprentice
# 16217
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Posted
quote:
The true nature of liturgy is not historical reenactment; it is an invitation to the holy spirit to enter into the life of the church as the whole body of Christ now. It needs the kind of organic engagement, not the kind of forensic attention to isolated detail it tends to get from fanatics.
Threefold Amen.
Wish we had a quick [LIKE] button!
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And are we yet alive?
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Ondergard
Shipmate
# 9324
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Posted
When I was at Wesley College, Bristol, I was fortunate enough to have been given the opportunity of taking part in a college exchange with the Anglican College in Chichester (sadly, like WCB, no more). It opened my eyes to the depth of Anglo-Catholic spirituality, as well as the conviviality and frivolity of its participants.
There was Lesser Silence, and Greater Silence, and a daily angelus bell, and Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament, and daily prayers for the Holy Father but pointedly not for the Archbishop of Canterbury, and all the look-at-me-genuflecting and dressing up that you might expect from what I might be bold to call the "Self-Consciously Catholic" elements; there was a priest giving homilies at Mass, in one of which (when knowingly in the presence of Methodist students) he made casual reference to "...Lutheranism, Wesleyanism, and other errors and heresies"; there were sub-altars in all student rooms, whose flint slab led unbroken through to the central altar at the heart of the Student House - and lots more.
What I remember most though about all that was the enormous crucifix on the lawn outside the chapel, and the quiet reminder from an old priest who was teaching there whose name escapes me that "without Good Friday there can be no Easter Day"; and all the wisdom which flowed from that simple statement.
What I remember of the students is being told by one of them that "... in this place, if he isn't married, he's gay, and sometimes even being married is no guarantee of heterosexuality".... shortly before he glanced over my shoulder at the door to St Richard's Bar and saying, in a deliberately camp voice, "Excuse me, I must go over and be gratuitously rude to Paul for five minutes." and then introduced me to another student who rejoiced in being the namesake of a famous rock musician.
I remember most of all the warmth and relaxed humour of the students. So, for a Methodist, I have fond memories of my experience of Anglo-Catholicism - so much so that I still have a rosary draped around a crucifix on my study wall, which I still use in daily devotions, I still cross myself when receiving communion at a communion rail, and I still pray for some of the students I met then, and have never met since.
I hope they are still having fun.
Posts: 276 | From: Essex | Registered: Apr 2005
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
I don't believe that "middle class and safe" is a preserve of either side of the FiF/AffCath divide (I use FiF through gritted teeth, but that's more of a hellish conversation). Neither of the congregations I have been part of which have significant FiF tendencies have been notable for their engagement with under-privilege. Instead, they have been notable for taking for granted the death of liturgy as a living tradition and picking over its bones, trying to give it the most exact replica they possibly can of its movements in life at a given point in history.
That feels a little unkind, but I believe very strongly that this at least the effect if not the intention of obsession with handbooks and liturgy as historical reenactment. The true nature of liturgy is not historical reenactment; it is an invitation to the holy spirit to enter into the life of the church as the whole body of Christ now. It needs the kind of organic engagement, not the kind of forensic attention to isolated detail it tends to gets from fanatics.
I would agree with nine-tenths of what you say. The soft-centred antiquarianism that is a characteristic of some of the FiF crowd gets on my tits too, and I am a fellow Traddie. No, the sort of Anglo-Catholicism I grew up with usually thrived in parishes that were 'a bit rough' and tended to have more than half an eye on contemporary RC practice whilst still remaining recognizably Anglican. As for grim reality it was usually outside the church door in one form or another usually in the forms of high unemployment and poverty due to the collapse of traditional heavy industry.
The obsession with Ritual directories and so on is a manifestation of either the grey suit mindset, or of a need to escape the grey suits. I am not sure which - maybe its both. On the whole it does not have much to do with the heart of Anglo-Catholicism which is the Gospel and the Sacraments.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
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sydney
Apprentice
# 16012
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Posted
Reference has been made by a number of contributors to Christ Church St Laurence in Sydney. I started going to CCSL just as Father Austin arrived. He had a hard act to follow in Father John Hope who had been rector there for 38 years. Father John introduced all the Anglo Catholic innovations there (reserved Sacrament, the Benediction, the English Missal services etc).
Father Austin's arrival in 1964 coincided with the changes (horrors?) that were taking place in the Roman church and Father Austin determined that changes occur at CCSL but waited about 5 years to make his first moves. In about 1970 he replaced the English Missal with the Series 2 and later the Australian Prayer Book. Example of "progress" ("Pray brethen that this my sacrifice and yours be acceptable to God the Father Almighty" became "Lord we have these gifts to share"). So much for progress. Father Austin retained of course many traditional Anglo Catholic practices (the Asperges, the Angelus loads of incense) but nothing in my mind will ever replace the beauty both in language and gesture of the English Missal services where every word and gesture was the result of centuries of use. These modern services just follow the whim of individual priests. I probably sound like a reactionary but so be it.
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sydney
Posts: 36 | From: sydney | Registered: Nov 2010
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sydney:
nothing in my mind will ever replace the beauty both in language and gesture of the English Missal services where every word and gesture was the result of centuries of use. These modern services just follow the whim of individual priests.
I have to laugh: what is an Anglican priest doing using the English Missal if not following his [sic, usually] own whim? No reason why a few whims shouldn't be indulged of course; that's what this thread is all about. Most of the 'fun' of anglo-catholicism came from skirting very close, or beyond, the letter of the law.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sydney:
nothing in my mind will ever replace the beauty both in language and gesture of the English Missal services where every word and gesture was the result of centuries of use. These modern services just follow the whim of individual priests.
Centuries of use! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) More like a few midweek nights over a bottle of port in the vicarage of Holy Trinity Hoxton where Fr Kenrick and his wife and their friend the vicar of St Alban's, Holborn, and maybe a few old Cambridge chums, put together a translation of the then-current Roman mass into cod Tudor (as in 1662) and played around with cutting-and-pasting various Anglican prayers into different bits of the Roman service!
He sounds like a nice chap, and he was a botanist, which is always a good thing, but the English Missal does seem to be the result of probably at most seven years practice in two or three parishes between about 1905 and 1912 (presumably putting into effect some of the ideas they and their friends had thought before they had got livings of their own)
It might (or might not) be a beautiful liturgy, but it was as congregational and as made-up on the spot and as personal to the situation of the compilers and translators and their churches as any Methodist hymn sandwich or Iona wee worship book. And nothing wrong with that as far as I can see. But its a lot nearer to being the "whim of individual priests" than either the Prayerbook was or Common Worship is.
[ 16. September 2012, 14:09: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Dead right there ken.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
the heart of Anglo-Catholicism which is the Gospel and the Sacraments.
PD
![[Confused]](confused.gif) and there was me thinking it was having lots of nice things to put lace on. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Mea culpa, this is frivolous with a very small sprinkling of bile, but it does chime with my experience, particularly when it comes to the use of tat to keep out public exposure of spirituality.
[deleted multiple posts and fixed code]
[ 16. September 2012, 20:41: Message edited by: seasick ]
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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sydney
Apprentice
# 16012
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Posted
I find these attitudes to the English Missal incredible some would say ignorant. The English Missal was the old Tridentine Rite in English. If that is not centuries of use based on trained and schooled good taste I don't know what is. The priests of that era were guided by the Ritual Notes (the Red Bible) which they used to good effect. Those of us brought up in that era the Missal services have a permanent place in our hearts. By the way I started a thread a few years on the use of the Missal in churches in London today. Only two were identified, St Magnus the Martyr and St Michael and All Angels Croydon. Any updates on this?
PS I am not your typical Sydney Anglican.
Posts: 36 | From: sydney | Registered: Nov 2010
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
FooloftheShip
1. May I commend to your use the preview post feature and the UBB practice thread in the Styx? That was quite an impressive multiple posts/broken code mess-up for someone with more than 500 posts.
2. If you think that your post contains bile, it may well not be appropriate for Ecclesiantics. As a reminder, we strive to maintain an atmosphere of respect for the different traditions represented and discussed here.
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
FooloftheShip
1. May I commend to your use the preview post feature and the UBB practice thread in the Styx? That was quite an impressive multiple posts/broken code mess-up for someone with more than 500 posts.
2. If you think that your post contains bile, it may well not be appropriate for Ecclesiantics. As a reminder, we strive to maintain an atmosphere of respect for the different traditions represented and discussed here.
seasick, Eccles host
I managed to make this mess, I think, by excessive use of preview post, rather than too little. A little time on the practice thread may be well spent. I have just noticed the mess I made and sent a message to one of your fellow hosts requesting the kindness of removing two of the examples.
In terms of judgement, the complication is that it is kind of my tradition. Internecine warfare is always the bloodiest. I shall, however, be more careful in the future, on both counts.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sydney:
I find these attitudes to the English Missal incredible some would say ignorant. The English Missal was the old Tridentine Rite in English. If that is not centuries of use based on trained and schooled good taste I don't know what is.
I don't know what 'good taste' has to do either with liturgy or the subject of this thread. The 'fun' of anglo- (and most other sorts of) catholicism has always been its over-the-top-ness and exuberance which is miles apart from cathedral dignity. Both have their place of course.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
I have just noticed the mess I made and sent a message to one of your fellow hosts requesting the kindness of removing two of the examples.
Clarification: I had sent the message before seeing the hostly reply on the thread.
[ 16. September 2012, 20:50: Message edited by: FooloftheShip ]
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by sydney:
I find these attitudes to the English Missal incredible some would say ignorant. The English Missal was the old Tridentine Rite in English. If that is not centuries of use based on trained and schooled good taste I don't know what is.
I don't know what 'good taste' has to do either with liturgy or the subject of this thread. The 'fun' of anglo- (and most other sorts of) catholicism has always been its over-the-top-ness and exuberance which is miles apart from cathedral dignity. Both have their place of course.
I think a good, honest example of High Church fun would be the Walsingham National. I'm afraid, however, that there is much A-C fun that is little more than bitchy, queeny, campy, elitist excess. I hope that strain is going the way of the Dodo, frankly.
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by sydney:
I find these attitudes to the English Missal incredible some would say ignorant. The English Missal was the old Tridentine Rite in English. If that is not centuries of use based on trained and schooled good taste I don't know what is.
I don't know what 'good taste' has to do either with liturgy or the subject of this thread. The 'fun' of anglo- (and most other sorts of) catholicism has always been its over-the-top-ness and exuberance which is miles apart from cathedral dignity. Both have their place of course.
I think a good, honest example of High Church fun would be the Walsingham National. I'm afraid, however, that there is much A-C fun that is little more than bitchy, queeny, campy, elitist excess. I hope that strain is going the way of the Dodo, frankly.
I doubt it. And to be liberal, there is room for all. One person's 'campy eleitist excess' is another person's fun.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
One person's 'campy eleitist excess' is another person's fun.
Not if it's at the expense of others.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sydney:
By the way I started a thread a few years on the use of the Missal in churches in London today. Only two were identified, St Magnus the Martyr and St Michael and All Angels Croydon. Any updates on this?
If so, please start another thread. This is a bit of a tangent.
Thanks.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
I searched for a thread in Ecclesiantics that might explain to me why the Guardian's article on the successor to the Archbishop of Canterbury was quick to point out that virtually all of the potential candidates were Evangelical.
Given the tenor of this thread, I'm sort of figuring out why. Is eccentricity now the hallmark of anglo-catholicism?
Now, don't get me wrong, I was one of the cranky people on the Ship who objected to re-naming Mystery Worship "Ecclesiantics." And, to this day, I habitually spell GIN in all caps (particularly when I know it will annoy somebody).
But I have to ask you, is anglo-catholicism so discredited in the UK as a viable expression of Christian faith that even the Guardian, for God's sake, doesn't even mention a viable AC candidate for ABC?
Are y'all just playing around and talking amongst yourselves?
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I think it's more the case that, having just had an Anglo-Catholic ABC, we're unlikely to have another one straight away.
Anglo-Catholicism does suffer from the current disease of dumbing down within the church - the idea that the unwashed masses aren't able to cope with anything that is unfamiliar or that they might have to ask questions about to understand. Evangelicals do tend to be better at that.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
With the recent conflicts in the Communion in mind, perhaps many High Anglicans; Anglo-Catholics and others do not find as much "fun" in ecclesia as they used to?
Perhaps some of aforesaid "fun" is becoming a trifle hysterical?
It is a difficult time.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
I started attending an AC church about 7 or 8 years ago because of its liberal theology, being tired of the Jensenite agenda on offer nearly everywhere else. I must say I don't see fun being had at all in my AC parish, they take themselves very seriously and IME are actually much less fun than many of their con-evo counterparts.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
I searched for a thread in Ecclesiantics that might explain to me why the Guardian's article on the successor to the Archbishop of Canterbury was quick to point out that virtually all of the potential candidates were Evangelical.
Given the tenor of this thread, I'm sort of figuring out why. Is eccentricity now the hallmark of anglo-catholicism?
Now, don't get me wrong, I was one of the cranky people on the Ship who objected to re-naming Mystery Worship "Ecclesiantics." And, to this day, I habitually spell GIN in all caps (particularly when I know it will annoy somebody).
But I have to ask you, is anglo-catholicism so discredited in the UK as a viable expression of Christian faith that even the Guardian, for God's sake, doesn't even mention a viable AC candidate for ABC?
This seems rather odd given that both Bishop Chartres and Bishop James have strongly High Church backgrounds. Of course, neither belongs to that small band of ACs so extreme they would have nothing to do with a parish which followed another tradition but then it is hard to see how anyone who was exclusively associated with a single 'party' could be in the running for ABC.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Wasn't Stephen Cottrell among the Guardian list too? He's Aff Cath. Though again sympathetic to evangelicals and in no way 'party minded'.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, there has been bit of a tendency to 'alternate', at least since Coggan followed Ramsey and perhaps even when Fisher followed Temple. (Not sure what Fisher's churchmanship was- does 'Public School' best decribe it?)
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Isn't part of the problem that the Evangelicals have most of the young 'uns and most higher folks are of that age where "fun" isn't immediately obvious, e.g. watching the regional bowls championship, exchanging banter with the young lady who changes the colostomy bag, etc.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Yes, there has been bit of a tendency to 'alternate', at least since Coggan followed Ramsey and perhaps even when Fisher followed Temple. (Not sure what Fisher's churchmanship was- does 'Public School' best decribe it?)
I thought that was the standard, almost explicit, pattern? I'd assumed we were due an evangelical next.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Indeed. I suppose I can see why they do it, and on the whole the results have been acceptable - with the glaring exception of George Carey, though IIRC there wasn't really anybody very obvious, Evangelical or not, in the frame when ++Runcie went- David Hope was a bit young (and A-C), John Habgood a bit old. Was David Sheppard considered? There was some talk then of ++Robin Eames (Armagh), but I don't know how serious a possibility this was.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Isn't part of the problem that the Evangelicals have most of the young 'uns
Nope.
More likely that Evangelicals have most of the money. And in the larger Anglican communion the Evangelicals have the larger provinces. So it doesn't matter where the next ABC's sympathies lie. He won't be able to go about pissing off the Evangelicals in the same way that an Evangelical is, regrettably, able to piss off the catholics or liberals.
Rowan was never as liberal as his detractors made out anyway, I've noticed some Evangelical sympathies in his speeches. He is as close to the centre of Anglicanism as any Archbishop has been. There's nothing to be alternative to.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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