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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Non Anglo-Catholic ABC parishes
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Leo, if someone wants to leavfe a parish for no other reason than that because that parish recognises ordained women, surely its better that they go?
You seem to be saying that the "Catholic" nature of a church depends on having servers who can get the minutiae of ritual just right; so you would sacrifice any principles to keep them on board.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
I'm still not sure where this servers issue comes in. Is the point that churches more likely to oppose OOW are more likely to have altar servers, or that in any church servers are more likely to oppose OOW. I can possibly see the former, but not the latter.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
But the GSS are anti-OoW, aren't they? Isn't there also an alternative body (the Company of Servers?) which is more Aff-Cath, SCP?
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
Yes, Company of Servers are AffCath - Dean of Southwark the VR Andrew Nunn is Chaplain General of the CoS and Chair of Ath Cath...and Rector General of the Society of Catholic Priests for good measure!
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
St Michael's Cornhill, in the City of London, strikes me as the sort of place that (under the previous incumbent at any rate) would be a MOTR Resolutions parish.
I was a regular at St Michael's, Cornhill from 1999 until 2005, and was on its PCC for most of that time. No resolutions were ever passed, unlike its neighbouring parish, St James, Garlickhythe, whic was Resolution A and B, and also a Prayer Book church. Resolution C was never thought necessary for churches under the direct oversight of the Bishop of London, who doesn't ordain women, or men, for that matter. Although the words used at St Michael's were always Prayer Book, as it was a choral church which always used Mass settings by the great composers, the order of the service was rejigged to follow the Western Rite, so that, musically, the order would be kyrie eleison, gloria, credo, sanctus and agnus dei . The Tridentine Rite was something the incumbant liked to do once a year on Corpus Christi, though he would sometimes do it on a weekday Mass when few people were present.
It was during my time there that I was moving ever higher up the candle, which was why I eventually left. Some of us persuaded the PCC to allow the use of the sanctus bell, which the incumbant wanted, but others opposed it. They wouldn't tolerate votive candles, or procession of the Bread and Wine, which I tried to push for. The Drapers' Company had a permanent seat on the PCC, and had to approve of the incumbant, which meant a strong Protestant tradition. I wouldn't tolerate a word of criticism of Dr Peter Mullen. His sermons were the sharpest and most apt in the whole of London. He presided over a theologically informed congregation, and raised the numbers from less than 10 to a regular weekly congregation of 50-70, one of whom came by Eurostar from Paris once a month.
It was when I became more involved wth Forward in Faith, and joined several of the Catholic societies of the C of E that I realised that, although the incumbant had many fine Catholic ideals, the church was stuck in a long standing City of London tradition which would never allow it to move in the direction I wanted to go in.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
Yes, Company of Servers are AffCath - Dean of Southwark the VR Andrew Nunn is Chaplain General of the CoS and Chair of Ath Cath...and Rector General of the Society of Catholic Priests for good measure!
That is what I think the French would call le Cumul des Mandats
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Aggie
Ship's cat
# 4385
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I wonder if there are some evangelical places where women may celebrate but not lead or be bishops, now what's that resolution status.
They certainly exist. I've heard of parishes that have passed only Resolution B.
Yes indeed they do. Many Anglican chaplaincies abroad, such as those in Spain are usually Resolution B for ecumenical reasons, as most Anglican congregations over there do not have their own buildings, so they "borrow" (with permission from the local diocesan bishop of course!) a local RC church or chapel for worship and the celebration of the Eucharist.
I notice that most Anglican chaplaincies in Europe are fairly MOTR, and neither very Low nor very High in their churchmanship. Although I could be wrong!
[ 07. February 2013, 12:04: Message edited by: Aggie ]
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“I see his blood upon the rose
And in the stars the glory of his eyes,
His body gleams amid eternal snows,
His tears fall from the skies.”
(Joseph Mary Plunkett 1887-1917)
Posts: 581 | From: A crazy, crazy world | Registered: Apr 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
I'm still not sure where this servers issue comes in. Is the point that churches more likely to oppose OOW are more likely to have altar servers, or that in any church servers are more likely to oppose OOW. I can possibly see the former, but not the latter.
The point I was trying to make was about a particular church, most of whose servers I know personally. Many of them are opposed to the OOW and would leave if the resolutions were rescinded.
There would not be enough serves left to 'staff' a solemn mass. (As it is they already find it difficult to do so).
Of course, in time, new ones might be attracted.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Leo, if someone wants to leavfe a parish for no other reason than that because that parish recognises ordained women, surely its better that they go?
You seem to be saying that the "Catholic" nature of a church depends on having servers who can get the minutiae of ritual just right; so you would sacrifice any principles to keep them on board.
I agree with you entirely - but - this thread is about whether the resolutions apply to churchpersonships other than anglo-catholic.
I have spent nearly 50 years in the catholic wing of the C of E so I think i understand how it works.
For me, 'catholic' is about doctrine, not about dressing up. I use the term 'high church' (inaccurately) as a term of disdain for the dressers-up but it is a fact that city anglo-catholic churches attract an eclectic congregation, many of whom come for the incense and wouldn't know what an immaculate conception was if it hit them in the face.
[ 07. February 2013, 12:34: Message edited by: leo ]
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
This is the parish, which is actually a curious mix of high and low, and it is called Christ Church with St Ewen:
http://www.christchurchcitybristol.org/index1.html
It seems to attract priests from all over the theological show. But I suspect ABC has much to do with the parish mentality of rejecting modernity.
On reflection, this church is an example of the sort of non-anglo-cats who pass the resolutions.
In recent years, it seems to be a bit jingoistic. Two friends of mine refer to its last priest-in-charge as 'the mad mullah' because he keeps Trafalgar Day. And i bet they kept Betty's accession yesterday, too.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So, bringing it back to 'worship practices' but without resorting to gossip, I reckon that an anglo-catholic parish such as mentioned above which rescinds the resolutions will no longer look anglo-catholic. Whilst some in the pews might not even know what the resolutions mean, altar servers, already in very short supply, tend to be more clued up and more likely to leave in search of another church which has kept the resolutions.
This is to suggest that altar servers and others who are clued up about liturgical practice are more likely to be anti-OoW. I don't know the parish so you may be right in that case, but it's hardly a reasonable assumption generally.
It seems to me that leo is using Anglo-Catholic to mean 'conservative' catholic-minded Anglicans, while 'liberal' catholic-minded Anglicans are called Aff Caths/Affirming Catholics.
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— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:
I notice that most Anglican chaplaincies in Europe are fairly MOTR, and neither very Low nor very High in their churchmanship. Although I could be wrong!
Generally true I think. Although in Italy (perhaps unsurprisingly though running counter to VenBede's thesis elsewhere) the general flavour seems to be on the high side. Inevitably most chaplaincy churches are not over-endowed with financial resources or person power, so full-scale High Mass and Benediction parishes are rare. St Mark's Florence is I believe Forward in Faith, and the one in Milan tends in that direction I think. All Saints Rome is probably on the Aff-Cath end of MOTR, though liturgically fairly conservative.
I get the impression that the Netherlands (and maybe Germany) is where the evangelicals of the diocese hang out.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The recently-retired incumbent was happy with either of the designations above but loathed 'Father Rickard' - I only discovered that after he left and have always called him that.
Is that a typo and he disliked the, perfectly standard, "Father Richard"? If not, I can understand why Fr Hoyal might object to being called Fr Rickard.
Thurible
sorry - you must be used to my typos by now.
Rickard sounds sort of Lutheran.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Generally true I think. Although in Italy (perhaps unsurprisingly though running counter to VenBede's thesis elsewhere) the general flavour seems to be on the high side.
Ha - not necessarily. The Italian Catholic Church tends to be rather "Low" Church - or at least, "Rushed" Church, with very little tolerance for extended ceremonial. All done with a certain "bella figura" of course!
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I think you misunderstand me, TT. I was referring to Anglican chaplaincies (C of E Diocese of Europe) in Italy. Which are probably 'high' in much the same way as you describe the Catholic churches there. I.e. not very flamboyant liturgically.
Incidentally a former director of the Anglican Centre in Rome once expressed his amusement at Anglo-catholics who modelled their liturgical and sartorial style on what they had seen on their travels to the Eternal City. He said that most suburban churches were more like Holy Trinity Brompton than the Brompton Oratory: it was only within a stonesthrow (or a thurible's swing) of the Vatican that the churches resembled the a-c ideal.
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
This is the parish, which is actually a curious mix of high and low, and it is called Christ Church with St Ewen:
http://www.christchurchcitybristol.org/index1.html
It seems to attract priests from all over the theological show. But I suspect ABC has much to do with the parish mentality of rejecting modernity.
On reflection, this church is an example of the sort of non-anglo-cats who pass the resolutions.
In recent years, it seems to be a bit jingoistic. Two friends of mine refer to its last priest-in-charge as 'the mad mullah' because he keeps Trafalgar Day. And i bet they kept Betty's accession yesterday, too.
I would think it a little bit disrespectful to refer to who is obviously a deeply spiritual and religious man as 'the mad mullah'. Betty' s accession is probably being kept til Sunday, but I think they sing God Save the Queen and that hymn about the English Martyrs more than any other...
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I think you misunderstand me, TT. I was referring to Anglican chaplaincies (C of E Diocese of Europe) in Italy. Which are probably 'high' in much the same way as you describe the Catholic churches there. I.e. not very flamboyant liturgically.
I thought I got you, and was following the argument that the CofE takes on the opposite hue to the dominant competitor. You suggested Italy was an exception in being rather "high", so I was trying to say that probably still reflects the thesis because the Italian Catholic Church is rather low. What have I missed?
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Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:
I notice that most Anglican chaplaincies in Europe are fairly MOTR, and neither very Low nor very High in their churchmanship. Although I could be wrong!
Generally true I think. Although in Italy (perhaps unsurprisingly though running counter to VenBede's thesis elsewhere) the general flavour seems to be on the high side. Inevitably most chaplaincy churches are not over-endowed with financial resources or person power, so full-scale High Mass and Benediction parishes are rare. St Mark's Florence is I believe Forward in Faith, and the one in Milan tends in that direction I think. All Saints Rome is probably on the Aff-Cath end of MOTR, though liturgically fairly conservative.
I get the impression that the Netherlands (and maybe Germany) is where the evangelicals of the diocese hang out.
From my own experience of working in the Diocese in Europe, I'd suggest that Aggie is nearer the mark. Each chaplaincy has to cater for people who favour a very wide range of styles, both doctrinally and liturgically, and therefore any movement up and down the candle that might reflect a particular chaplain's direction tends to be corrected when s/he is gone.
Varese, where I worked, was at that time nominally part of the Milan chaplaincy. Of the two chaplains who lived in Milan during that time, the first came from Australia and returned there to join the RC Church; the second is now Rector of Saint Clement's Philadelphia. I would say the congregation remained MOTR with some evangelical tendencies during the whole of that time. Varese, under excellent lay leadership, has continued to develop more modern expressions of Church that are helpful for congregation members who are not of Anglican background, while retaining a core of distinctly Anglican worship.
Saint Mark's in Florence was for some time dominated by a group of people who were trying to emulate the Tractarians. Such a 'niche' approach was possible because Saint James Florence (TEC) exists and can provide an alternative for anglophones/Anglicans.
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Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I think you misunderstand me, TT. I was referring to Anglican chaplaincies (C of E Diocese of Europe) in Italy. Which are probably 'high' in much the same way as you describe the Catholic churches there. I.e. not very flamboyant liturgically.
I thought I got you, and was following the argument that the CofE takes on the opposite hue to the dominant competitor. You suggested Italy was an exception in being rather "high", so I was trying to say that probably still reflects the thesis because the Italian Catholic Church is rather low. What have I missed?
I see what you mean. Misunderstanding on my side.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
With reference to OP, a good number of parishes in the Diocese in Europe have passed at least Resolution B, which the current management considers to be a Good Thing ecumenically. They might be surprised to find how many native Catholic clergy in Italy, both Ambrosian (Archdiocese of Milan) and Roman, are open to the ordination of women.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Good to have your first-hand experience of Anglicans in Italy, AberVicar. I'm sure you're right about most chaplaincy congregations; inevitably they will reflect a wide range of anglican traditions and especially with the increased immigration from Africa and elsewhere will tend towards the evangelical end of the spectrum. My experience there is much more limited, but I would guess that the clergy tend to be more catholic, and the churches often reflect a longer-established Tractarian tradition.
The priorities seem to be maintaining a Eucharistic presence and English-language worship, with a little sideline in celebrating English culture. That suits me and I suspect most Anglicans; the latter might become less appropriate as the make-up of congregations becomes less English as opposed to generally anglophone. The dynamic will of course be different in predominantly tourist cities if established resident expatriates make up a smaller proportion of the congregation.
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Utrecht Catholic
Shipmate
# 14285
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Posted
The worship of most of the R,C. churches in France and Italy is rather low-church,ceremonial and music are often very plain.This must be a shock for former Anglicans who have joined the ordinariate.
The European Diocese of the Church of England,is Middle of Road.
With regard to the Anglican Church in the Netherlands, its worship is rather low-church.
Amsterdam is very Evangelical,Utrecht is rather Highish,vestments and incense,very similar to the
Old-Catholic worship in the Netherlands.
St.Boniface, Antwerp, Belgium is standing in
the Catholic tradition,however they stick to C.W.
The US Anglican/Episcopal Church in Europe , with beautiful churches in Paris and Rome,is also Middle of Road.Eucharistic centered with vestments,no incense.
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Robert Kennedy
Posts: 220 | From: Dordrecht | Registered: Nov 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
The two churches in the Dio of Europe I know best (one in the south of France, one in the north of Italy) are both MOTR with a mixed (and by no means monocultural) congregation; but, eucharist-centred, reservation in a tabernacle, vestments, priest called Father. I had assumed they were typical... maybe it's just the Mediterranean equivalent (and rather lower-church) equivalent of London Brighton and South Coast Religion.
Oh, and to bring it back on topic, they all seem to be women-priest free zones though I can't imagine that is for the same reason that motivates F in F in England. I don't know if any have passed the Resolutions (or even if they apply in Dio of Europe) .
[ 08. February 2013, 21:26: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
The two churches in the Dio of Europe I know best (one in the south of France, one in the north of Italy) are both MOTR with a mixed (and by no means monocultural) congregation; but, eucharist-centred, reservation in a tabernacle, vestments, priest called Father. I had assumed they were typical... maybe it's just the Mediterranean equivalent (and rather lower-church) equivalent of London Brighton and South Coast Religion.
Oh, and to bring it back on topic, they all seem to be women-priest free zones though I can't imagine that is for the same reason that motivates F in F in England. I don't know if any have passed the Resolutions (or even if they apply in Dio of Europe) .
The resolutions DO apply in the Diocese in Europe (ref my earlier post).
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Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
The two churches in the Dio of Europe I know best (one in the south of France, one in the north of Italy) are both MOTR with a mixed (and by no means monocultural) congregation; but, eucharist-centred, reservation in a tabernacle, vestments, priest called Father. I had assumed they were typical... maybe it's just the Mediterranean equivalent (and rather lower-church) equivalent of London Brighton and South Coast Religion.
Oh, and to bring it back on topic, they all seem to be women-priest free zones though I can't imagine that is for the same reason that motivates F in F in England. I don't know if any have passed the Resolutions (or even if they apply in Dio of Europe) .
The resolutions DO apply in the Diocese in Europe (ref my earlier post).
Well, sort of, but not in the same way. The Resolutions as they appear in the 1993 Measure cannot apply because they relate to Parishes, which do not exist in the Diocese in Europe (they have Chaplaincies). The Diocese in Europe constitution enables an "identical but different" set of Resolutions (identical in effect) to be given quasi-legal effect.
There's an interesting question as to whether they would withstand legal challenge as a matter of Employment law in certain European jurisdictions.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
The Diocese in Europe constitution enables an "identical but different" set of Resolutions (identical in effect) to be given quasi-legal effect.
There's an interesting question as to whether they would withstand legal challenge as a matter of Employment law in certain European jurisdictions.
The important thing here is 'identical in effect', and the legally fascinating thing about the Diocese in Europe is that it seeks to duplicate the effect of as much English ecclesiastical law as possible without there being any uniform legal recognition throughout the diocese. If you know sufficient to make the point regarding employment law in the variety of European jurisdictions, you will also be aware of the convoluted somersaults engaged in by some chaplaincies to avoid the legal consequences of their chaplain being an employee (and of whom?) - or to benefit from the favourable conditions that obtain in those countries where clergy are employees of the State.
But to go back to the Resolutions: no female priest reading a job advertisement that says Resolution B Passed is then going to take the Diocese/Chaplaincy to the relevant Court just to get an interview?
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Ahem. As I was saying...
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
A gentle reminder to all posters that the OP was about the worship practices of ABC parishes. If you move on to debating church politics (including attitudes towards the General Synod) or the resolutions as such (including when in the life of a parish they might have to be debated), this thread could find itself moved or closed.
seasick, Eccles host
This is a less gentle reminder. The resolutions as such are off limits for debate in Ecclesiantics. There will not be another warning, the thread will just be closed.
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
The worship of most of the R,C. churches in France and Italy is rather low-church,ceremonial and music are often very plain.This must be a shock for former Anglicans who have joined the ordinariate.
I've always said it's wrong and misleading to use the Anglicans' "low-church/High-Church" dichotomy with Catholic churches because of their different history and context. No matter how plain and simple the ceremonial one still believes in the sacrifice of the Mass, transubstantiation, the intercession of saints, etc., etc., and the texts of the liturgy reflect that.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Utrecht Catholic
Shipmate
# 14285
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Posted
Please allow me to tell you and other readers,Roman-Catholics themselves, of course not from the U.K., but living in other parts of Europe use the description LOW-CHURCH.
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Robert Kennedy
Posts: 220 | From: Dordrecht | Registered: Nov 2008
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
Please allow me to tell you and other readers,Roman-Catholics themselves, of course not from the U.K., but living in other parts of Europe use the description LOW-CHURCH.
Well, I don't know about that. I've never come across the term in Italian, French and Spanish Catholic websites or in comment sections from Italian, French and Spanish posters either. I'd be surprised if Poles and Slovaks use it, too. I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that anyone who does use the term has picked it up from the Anglicans and it still doesn't make sense using it beyond the Anglican context.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
It doesn't make much sense within it, without a lot of additional qualifications. 'Low' and 'high' could be descriptive of worship styles, and so nothing to do with theology. I suspect that is what is intended here. And in that sense can apply as much to Catholic as Anglican churches.
But 'high church' has a very specific politico-theological meaning in Anglican history, and rarely implied a particularly exotic style of worship. It is no more to be equated with anglo-catholic than 'low church' is with evangelical.
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
Oh, I understand why people use the terms with Catholic churches. As a short-hand descriptor of liturgy it can be very convenient but I think people do make judgements of theology based on it (as far as I'm able to understand, historically the presence and type or lack of ceremonial in Anglican parishes indicated the type of beliefs held there) and that leads to misunderstanding and confusion like the possible shock to Anglicans entering the Ordinariate that was mentioned above.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
We have gone way off topic. If I was interested in what the Romans called themselves or the way they worship I would have asked about it. As it is, I'm not, and I am of a school that shudders slightly when I hear them refer to themselves as 'Catholics' when I know fully well that they would cause a fuss if I chose - as the English Reformers and Caroline divines did - to refer to myself by the same term.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Indifferently: We try to maintain an atmosphere of respect for all traditions represented in Ecclesiantics. One of the elements of that is to refer to the various traditions and their adherents by the terms they themselves prefer. The use of the word "Romans" to describe Catholics is deprecated. You are entirely free to use the term "Roman Catholic" if you wish.
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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