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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Calling People Apes
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
What happened to the girl after being pointed out was not under the direction of Goodes
I think this comment is merely thoughtless, but were I one of those obsessive, paranoid, witch-hunter types who see racism everywhere, I could easily label you a racist for depicting Goodes as lacking the brains to imagine the damage that his actions might cause.
Racism is a genuinely serious issue, but those who play at being "anti-racister than thou" by uncovering it in all the minutiae of life (rather as self-righteous sexual morality crusaders used to discern "indelicacy", "impurity" or "lewdness" where no-one else did) only succeed in trivialising it.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) Based on abuse I have encountered, I would be more likely to ascribe negative attributes towards white people than black. But the amount of pigment in one's skin is merely an adaptation to solar radiation and has naught to do with anything else.
Speaking as a victim of racism, one's reaction is often more about emotion than reason regardless.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
A quote in the article jumps out at me:
quote:
"It's not as if she swore at him," Joanne told 3AW.
When the mother thinks swearing is worse than using a racial slur, the girl's actions are unsurprising.
I think the response was utterly proportional. Use a racial slur, get escorted out of the event, learn that actions have consequences. But no criminal charge and no ban from future events, so it shouldn't disrupt her future.
The girl's response seems appropriate as well. She said "I'm sorry for being racist", and didn't try and weasel out of it with "I'm sorry you were offended" or something.
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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Dan Druff
Apprentice
# 17703
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Posted
I take a different view to most of those expressed so far.
"Big Ape" could well mean the same as "Big Lug".
As far as I am concerned a huge man who is supposed to be so macho taking pride in humiliating a thirteen year old girl in front of thousands of people is a wimp and a bully rather than a hero.
And expelling a thirteen year old girl out into the street does not seem a very clever thing to do.
Posts: 9 | From: Kent NOT London | Registered: May 2013
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Druff:
And expelling a thirteen year old girl out into the street does not seem a very clever thing to do.
She wasn't "expelled out into the street." She was escorted out of the public viewing area.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
You may not be aware of it but racism in Dixieland and deporting Jews to concentration camps in Austro-Germany were both perfectly legal and had huge public support - so always be cautious when howling with the wolves because you feel you just know you're right.
That sentence is a marvel of poor argument - four failures in one! Patronising, insulting, non sequitur, and Godwinised!
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Druff:
I take a different view to most of those expressed so far.
How would you know that when you don't seem to have read them?
quote:
"Big Ape" could well mean the same as "Big Lug".
It could, but in this case it clearly doesn't, for all sorts of reasons already explained here.
quote:
As far as I am concerned a huge man who is supposed to be so macho taking pride in humiliating a thirteen year old girl in front of thousands of people is a wimp and a bully rather than a hero.
If that was what happened you'd have a point. But it didn't and you don't.
[ 28. May 2013, 15:53: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Druff:
I take a different view to most of those expressed so far.
Welcome aboard, Dan Druff. I have some shampoo you can borrow...
quote:
"Big Ape" could well mean the same as "Big Lug".
Yes, it could, and several people have mentioned the possibility. It is, however, the case that sportsmen with an Aboriginal or African heritage are often called monkeys, apes and so on, with the implication that they are lower down the evolutionary ladder than those of European heritage who are doing the insulting. "Ape" aimed at a hairy white guy with long arms isn't racist, but "ape" aimed at an Indigenous Australian is quite likely to be.
Also note that the girl in question has apologized for being racist. Not "I didn't mean it as racist but could see how you could take it that way" but "sorry I was racist."
quote:
As far as I am concerned a huge man who is supposed to be so macho taking pride in humiliating a thirteen year old girl in front of thousands of people is a wimp and a bully rather than a hero.
Who said anything about Mr. Goodes "taking pride" in humiliating anyone. Let's say that instead of calling him an ape, the girl had thrown something at him (also happens at sporting events, also unacceptable, but generally not racist, unless it's a banana or something.) And let's suppose that Mr. Goodes did exactly the same thing - stopped, and pointed her out to the officials as the person who had thrown a missile. Would anyone be talking about him "taking pride" in "humiliating" someone who was throwing coins at players, say? I don't think so.
In fact, Mr. Goodes responded to the incident by saying:
quote:
"I just hope that people give the 13-year-old girl the same sort of support because she needs it, her family needs it, and the people around them need it. It's not a witch-hunt, I don't want people to go after this young girl. We've just got to help educate society better so it doesn't happen again."
That doesn't look like taking pride in humiliating someone to me.
quote:
And expelling a thirteen year old girl out into the street does not seem a very clever thing to do.
Indeed it wouldn't be, but it didn't happen. The girl was taken into a back room and questioned. As soon as the security people found out she was a child, they went to get her grandmother, who was accompanying her.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
It's a legally important distinction under most formulations of free speech rights. Private premises are not the same as an open public forum and, to a large degree, expression can be limited by the owners of the premises in ways not permissible in public spaces.
Which can be your decision if you happen to own a football stadium. The stadium authorities in this particular case take a much stronger line against racist slurs than you personally would feel comfortable with.
So you want to shift the debate from the ethical to the legalistic? Then there is no debate. Nobody denied that the club's action was legal and in line with mainstream opinion. But be warned: legalistic reasoning when ethical arguments run out is a slippery slope.
It is still an ethical argument. Do people gathered together for some common purpose have the right to expect some standard of behaviour? Does someone participating in whatever it is have a moral duty to try to follow that standard?
Say you were putting on a play. People come to see it. There is a (pretty much unwritten) expectation of how the audience will behave. It doesn't matter whether they are a paying audience or just your friends and relations, whether this is a professional theatre or a church hall, they will be playing the role of being in a theatre audience and more-or-less live up to what is expected of them. They are allowed to clap, to laugh at jokes, perhaps to stand up and cheer at the end. They are allowed to talk quietly to their neighbours as long as no=-one else can hear them. They are normally not allowed to go on to the stage, or to shout insults at the cast, or to throw things, or to take all their clothes off, or to talk loudly about the weather. The expectation will vary between times and places - the rules are different in a pantomime or a pub comedy theatre - but its always there. If an audience member breaks one of the rules they may be criticised or told to be quiet or sit down. If they go too far they will be asked to leave. There will be some leeway - one offence probably isn't enough to get you kicked out - but sooner or later there are lines you can't cross. Enforced by the audience as a whole as much as by whoever is running the theatre.
And other kinds of gatherings have other rules, other communal expectations. There are different standards of behaviour expected at restaurants or churches or parliaments or football matches.
The business about public versus private land is irrelevant from a moral point of view (except maybe in some neo-liberal anarcho-capitalist wet dreams) though it makes a difference in deciding who has the power to try to enforce the rules. What really counts is the obligations of people to other people. Its a communal, social, thing. It doesn't really matter who owns the land the building is on, what matters is how people relate to each other. Any group of people will develop its own rules pretty quickly, there doesn't have to be an external authority to impose them.
I don't know about Australian football matches because I've never been to one. But I do know about English football matches, because I go to them. Well, Millwall matches anyway. And the current situation is that, in practice, a fan can get away with calling a player a cunt to his face, but they can't get away with calling him a nigger. Both are against the rules on paper that might be enforced by the courts, but only one is against the rules in the expectation of the crowd, that is enforced by the crowd as much as by any officials. You might think that's a bad thing - maybe you want more freedom for racist insults, or less freedom for other ones - but right now its the way it is.
Its not all sweetness and light of course. When there is an external authority there is often a power struggle between them and the crowd, or between different factions in the external authority (at a football match the interests of the police do not always coincide with the interests of the football clubs and their stewards) There is often a power struggle between different factions within any group or crowd or community, and some end up being exploited or excluded. Which incidentally is exactly why it might makes sense to treat racist insults as worse then others, its to do with relative power - but that's been explained often enough on this thread already.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
The cunt/nigger examples are interesting, and I think it's correct that they are treated very differently. In fact, you could probably shout to a player, 'fucking useless cunt', and he would not take umbrage. However, shout, 'fucking black cunt', and he would probably would, and I am guessing that today a lot of the crowd would also object, and the police also would.
There are probably a complex set of reasons for this distinction, some of which have been discussed, but it seems clear that many black players really object to racist language, as we saw with the Evra/Suarez incident, which involved the word 'negro' I think.
To some extent, the crowd may empathize with their own black players, and their objections to such language. 'Fucking useless cunt' is more generalized, and might be said to any player, although no doubt some feminists object to it.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The cunt/nigger examples are interesting, and I think it's correct that they are treated very differently. In fact, you could probably shout to a player, 'fucking useless cunt', and he would not take umbrage. However, shout, 'fucking black cunt', and he would probably would, and I am guessing that today a lot of the crowd would also object, and the police also would.
There are probably a complex set of reasons for this distinction, some of which have been discussed, but it seems clear that many black players really object to racist language, as we saw with the Evra/Suarez incident, which involved the word 'negro' I think.
To some extent, the crowd may empathize with their own black players, and their objections to such language. 'Fucking useless cunt' is more generalized, and might be said to any player, although no doubt some feminists object to it.
Now why do I get the feeling that you think that calling a man a vagina is something that only feminists would regard as being insulting? And that the word "feminist" is also derogatory?
Ken interestingly said that the c word is as banned as the n word, but that that ban is not enforced by the crowd. Perhaps you are not aware (but ken will be) that in some circles "Millwall" is similarly seen as derogatory. I am not going to insult ken by saying that only a Millwall supporter would not find the c word offensive, or that it is only to be expected of such a supporter, as obviously that is not true. How do you feel about "pintle"?
[ 28. May 2013, 19:20: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
My guess is that yelling cunt at a player during a women's football game would not go unremarked. It is the identification of something you are (black / female) and then denigrating it. Whereas to yell cunt at a man is to say - you are like a worthless woman. And the man knows, he is not a woman.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Penny S
I don't know why you think that I think that only feminists would object to 'cunt'. Or why you think that I find 'feminist' to be derogatory. You tell me.
I was in the feminist movement about 30 years ago, and had some fierce battles over many things.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
Yes, big sister. In my native land when living in quarters dominated by Turks. (In one town when my gf visited she was a victim of racist & misogynist slander on a regular basis.) And very occasionally abroad where I spent a quarter of my life. ...
Excellent. Now imagine that those people who called you a xxxx in your quarters or when you were occasionally abroad are also at your workplace, at your school, at the shopping centre, on the bus, etc. They are your colleagues, your customers, they may even be your bosses. And about once a day, you hear the word "xxxx". Sometimes it's affectionately directed at you, such as a colleague saying, "Hey, xxxx, pass me the stapler" or your boss says, "You work really hard for a xxxx." Sometimes it's a conversation you overhear, like, "Man, those xxxxs are cheap / lousy drivers / breed like rabbits / whatever" or "A xxxx family just moved next door and you won't believe the smell from their kitchen." Maybe you'll hear someone say that all xxxx are savages who should be thrown out of the country or terrorists who should be locked up.
How long would you or your girlfriend put up with this, and would you still think it was no big deal? If your boss or a customer called you a xxxx, what would you do?
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Penny S
I don't know why you think that I think that only feminists would object to 'cunt'. Or why you think that I find 'feminist' to be derogatory. You tell me.
I was in the feminist movement about 30 years ago, and had some fierce battles over many things.
'Fucking useless cunt' is more generalized, and might be said to any player, although no doubt some feminists object to it.
Where I have met this sort of construction before, that is how it has been most frequently interpreted. And not only by me. I don't think you needed that last clause to make your point. Sorry that I got you wrong. (My excuse is that elsewhere I had been reading some stuff about an MCP supporter of UKIP who, despite having some frankly weird views, had loads of supporters in the comments, who were using that sort of phraseology, and that had primed me to take offence where it wasn't intended.)
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
How do you feel about "pintle"?
I think it's very useful. My rudder wouldn't stay on without one. It sounds vaguely comical.
Why - how should I feel about "pintle"? Is it Millwall slang for "penis" or something?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Why - how should I feel about "pintle"? Is it Millwall slang for "penis" or something?
It is etymologically "penis."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It is etymologically "penis."
So should I call a player for an opposing team a "fucking useless gudgeon"?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
"Big Ape" could well mean the same as "Big Lug".
It could, but in this case it clearly doesn't, for all sorts of reasons already explained here.
[/QB][/QUOTE]
It’s not actually clear at all, ken.
I am aware of the use of the term “ape” to specifically target black players, because I have read of it being done by soccer crowds in Europe, but I have never come across it being used to abuse indigenous people in Australia, and judging from the letters in the media, neither have many other Australians.
It is, however, not uncommon as a general, race-neutral, derogatory term.
The girl claimed that she did not intend it in any racist sense, and there is no reason to disbelieve her.
She has since apologised for using racist language, but any vulnerable thirteen year-old who had been through what she experienced would end up saying what they were told to say.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Lynnk
Apprentice
# 16132
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Posted
I agree the child was silly with her remark, and racism should not be tolerated.
I also wonder if football matches for particular races could be construed as just a teeny bit racist.
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Ok, Who washed the cat?
Posts: 22 | From: Tasmania | Registered: Jan 2011
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
Do you think this is fair? Should only adults be prosecuted?
Do you think it “fair” that a thirteen year-old was publicly targeted and humiliated in front of tens of thousands of people for a comment which almost certainly had no racist intent?
We certainly do not treat thirteen year-olds as responsible adults.
Amongst other things, they cannot vote, cannot drive, cannot sign contracts, cannot decide whether or not they go to school, and cannot have a sexual relationship with an adult.
Thirteen year-olds are perfectly capable of understanding that they have inadvertently offended someone if it is explained to them, and then apologizing for the hurt caused, but it needs to be done appropriately, and in this case it was mishandled by the adults involved, who should have known better.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
Oh dear, the old "I'm not racist, I have a couple of Indian friends" canard. [/QUOTE]
Your comment is as much a knee-jerk trope as the one which you are attacking.
I have abused and been abused on the Ship, and realize that it is a forum of vigorous disagreement – “if you don’t like the heat, get out of the kitchen”.
However in clearly implying that I am a racist, without any evidence, and in the face of my many unambiguous condemnations of racism, you have crossed a line.
You owe me an apology.
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynnk:
I also wonder if football matches for particular races could be construed as just a teeny bit racist.
It wasn't a match for a particular race; it was part of a round with a special focus on indigenous culture, on the contribution to the game made by indigenous Australians, and on the progress made in addressing racism on and off the field.
Alternatively, we could just go on sweeping racism under the carpet, and telling people who are on the end of racist abuse that they are big enough, or old enough, or well-paid enough, or male enough, or physically strong enough, or famous enough, or lucky enough, or actually-looking-enough-like-an-ape-with-their-beard-and-long-arms that they should just suck it up and get over it.
(And, Lynnk, that last paragraph is not directed specifically in response to you)
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
Oh dear, the old "I'm not racist, I have a couple of Indian friends" canard.
Your comment is as much a knee-jerk trope as the one which you are attacking.
I have abused and been abused on the Ship, and realize that it is a forum of vigorous disagreement – “if you don’t like the heat, get out of the kitchen”.
However in clearly implying that I am a racist, without any evidence, and in the face of my many unambiguous condemnations of racism, you have crossed a line.
You owe me an apology.
(cough)
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
What happened to the girl after being pointed out was not under the direction of Goodes
I think this comment is merely thoughtless, but were I one of those obsessive, paranoid, witch-hunter types who see racism everywhere, I could easily label you a racist for depicting Goodes as lacking the brains to imagine the damage that his actions might cause.
(cough)
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
(cough)
(cough)
Gesundheit.
I’m sorry for your respiratory disorder, but it is not an excuse for trying to pretend that an illustration of the stupidity of indiscriminate accusations of racism is the same as its opposite, ie actually accusing someone of racism.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
If anyone is interested, Eddie McGuire, the president of the Collingwood Football Club of which the thirteen year-old was a supporter, has today on radio compared Adam Goodes to King Kong.
Whether or not it was deliberately malicious (and FWIW I don’t believe it was), it was monumentally insensitive, offensive, stupid and, in the context of the last few days, unambiguously racist.
Unlike the girl, McGuire is an adult who knew, or should have known, what he was saying, and therefore deserves all he gets.
He should step down immediately.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I'm a bit mealy-keyboarded, and had been out with a friend who was photographing orchids when we saw some wild arum, aka cuckoo pint. (Both plants are named for supposed male characteristics.) I was surprised to find myself using that name for the spadix as it had not been in my mind for decades. It seemed an appropriate parallel to the c word, and a bit more unusual than the usual by-names.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It is etymologically "penis."
So should I call a player for an opposing team a "fucking useless gudgeon"?
Generally, you will find a preference for 'knobhead', 'dickhead', 'scrote', and so on, if you wish to dabble amongst the male genital equipment. This may also be accompanied by various manual gestures, which I believe refer to masturbation; of course, if you wish, there are all kinds of musical accompaniment. A song which you may hear, if you tour football grounds, for example, is 'He's got the whole world in his hands, and he wanks in girls' gardens'. The cultural references here are rather obscure.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Dan Druff
Apprentice
# 17703
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Druff:
I take a different view to most of those expressed so far.
How would you know that when you don't seem to have read them?
My reading of earlier postings gave me the impression that Kaplan was in a minority. Am I wrong?
Posts: 9 | From: Kent NOT London | Registered: May 2013
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
The girl claimed that she did not intend it in any racist sense, and there is no reason to disbelieve her.
She has since apologised for using racist language, but any vulnerable thirteen year-old who had been through what she experienced would end up saying what they were told to say.
No she didn't. She apologised for being racist.
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Kaplan--
How in the world can you say that McGuire's comment wasn't malicious, in light of the situation and of what you said in that same post???
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
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Posted
Kaplan Cordy, I think it was really harsh the girl was humiliated in front of all those people and I don't think her name or face should have been in the press. I do think it was ok to eject her from the ground with her family (it was nearly the end of the game anyway) and talk to her about the inappropriateness of racist language. If she had shoplifted or ridden a bike without a helmet for example, she is old enough to have consequences under the law. They would be less severe than for an adult and might only be a warning and a stern talking to for a first offence. It was a difficult situation as she was on TV and sitting directly in the front row.
As for Eddie McGuire it's like he lost his mind temporarily. I don't know what the consequences will be. He's rich, powerful and very influential in both football and the media. For those overseas he's sometimes called Eddie Everywhere because he is the President of the Collingwood Football Club, does commentary on the radio, has a morning show on the radio and previously also hosted a popular football TV show and the game show 'Who Wants to be a Millionaire'. He's definitely going to be doing a lot of apologising and everyone is probably wondering why on earth he made those comments at any time, but especially under the circumstances. Any other presenter would be at least suspended. I wonder if he won't take himself off the air for a bit, but I guess we'll see.
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49
Teenagers are remarkably resilient
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
That's why so many commit suicide, is it?
Even cyber bullying can tip many over the edge.
A great many teenagers are not resilient, but vulnerable. As one whose adolescence was not a pretty sight, I think I can assert that with some authority!
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
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Posted
I should add that Eddie better apoligise a lot or Collingwood might get cursed again. Collingwood Curse
This year is the twentieth anniversary of the racist incident that led to that curse after Nicky Winmar stood up to a crowd of racist Magpie fans and the President at the time said he should just act like a white person if he wanted to be left alone. There was a lot of focus before the weekend on how far things have come for the better when it comes to Indigenous players being treated as equals on the field. And then all this has happened.
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Mili
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# 3254
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Posted
I just realised the message board OP I linked to is a bit inaccurate. The Nicky Winmar incident took place in 1993 not 1991, and I think he doesn't quote from article but from memory. However there really was a curse and Collingwood had an awful season until it was lifted. Probably just coincidence?
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Sylvander
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# 12857
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
(cough)
(cough)
Gesundheit.
Your politeness is commendable. But "Gesundheit" is reserved for sneezing, while coughing elicits no response. But feel free to invent one and use it. I invented plenty of new English words at my work place and thus enlightened my colleagues.
What does "Godwinised" mean? I'm in search of at least one useful or at least logical accusation in the sentence passed by Supreme Judge further up.
Am I right in concluding from this debate that while association football is played by ruffians watched by gentlemen and rugby is played by gentlemen watched by ruffians, in Australian Football the ruffians are both on the pitch and the terraces?
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
[qb] What does "Godwinised" mean? I'm in search of at least one useful or at least logical accusation in the sentence passed by Supreme Judge further up.
It refers to Godwin's Law, which states that as any internet discussion thread gets longer, the likelihood that someone will make a comparison to the Nazis increases.
[Edit: fixed code]
[ 30. May 2013, 08:38: Message edited by: Amorya ]
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
(cough)
(cough)
Gesundheit.
Your politeness is commendable. But "Gesundheit" is reserved for sneezing, while coughing elicits no response. But feel free to invent one and use it. I invented plenty of new English words at my work place and thus enlightened my colleagues.
I realise that Gesaundheit is usually reserved for sneezing, but I understand that the word means "health' in German, so it seemed appropriate for someone as unwell as lilBuddha sounded.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
[qb] What does "Godwinised" mean? I'm in search of at least one useful or at least logical accusation in the sentence passed by Supreme Judge further up.
It refers to Godwin's Law, which states that as any internet discussion thread gets longer, the likelihood that someone will make a comparison to the Nazis increases.
[Edit: fixed code]
It usually also means that you have automatically lost the argument, as you have had recourse to such a threadbare and pathetic analogy, just as Goering did when he compared life to a chicken sandwich.
[ 30. May 2013, 09:27: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl
It usually also means that you have automatically lost the argument, as you have had recourse to such a threadbare and pathetic analogy, just as Goering did when he compared life to a chicken sandwich.
Actually, you have "automatically lost the argument" only in the minds of those who think you have. Of course, you haven't lost the argument for those who realise that you may have made a good point, and the Nazi analogy may have been appropriate.
You can't actually technically 'lose' an argument on the internet, because there is no judge and jury - only the variegated opinions of a motley collection of all and sundry, who happen to show up.
'Godwin's Law' is just an observation. It's not a rule of logic. But then again, quetz, you were probably just talking with tongue in cheek, as Godwin's Law is...
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
[QUOTE]
Am I right in concluding from this debate that while association football is played by ruffians watched by gentlemen and rugby is played by gentlemen watched by ruffians, in Australian Football the ruffians are both on the pitch and the terraces?
Sorry, at least in Aust terms you're wrong. Soccer is played almost exclusively by those still at primary school (i.e., under 12) and watched by their parents; rugby (union) is played and watched by gentlemen (and their partners and parents also watch); rugby league is played and watched by a wide range, but very few women play; Aust Rules, which is what we are talking about here, is a game played in Melbourne and some other places, by those living there.
[ 30. May 2013, 10:27: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Aust Rules, which is what we are talking about here, is a game played in Melbourne and some other places, by those living there.
It is the most popular code in all states except NSW and Queensland, into which it is steadily making inroads.
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Mili
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# 3254
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Posted
Yes us AFL supporters and the players are all thugs. Actually players and supporters come from a wide variety of backgrounds. Some people in Melbourne don't like it and don't like that everyone else here is so obsessed with it though. And some people are really into soccer and like to make fun of AFL and say it's not the real football.
I've been watching the Marngrook Footy Show on TV tonight and thought the Aboriginal presenters handled the whole issue well. They weren't happy with Eddie McGuire, but did acknowledge that he has done a lot to support Indigenous footballers in the past. They wanted to remind him that words do have an impact however. Now I'm watching Barefoot Sports, an Aboriginal sports show and the presenters there also had some interesting perspectives, but think Eddie McGuire has got off lightly and the AFL should have made an example of him. It's interesting that the ex-AFL Aboriginal footballers who know or have met McGuire were a little more forgiving than the sports presenters from other sports backgrounds. They were definitely on Goodes' side though and very supportive of his stand as you would expect.
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
Yes us AFL supporters and the players are all thugs.
I very deliberately did not say that.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Pine Marten
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# 11068
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Posted
I know nothing about Australian sport in general and had never heard of Adam Goodes, but I've been reading this thread and have a question: I have watched a couple of the YouTube videos of this incident. How on earth did Goodes identify the girl in all the yelling and general racket? Were not other fans yelling insults/comments/abuse?
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
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Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
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Posted
Sorry Gee D, I was responding to Sylvander who asked if all AFL supporters and players were ruffians.
As to how he identified the girl, maybe she yelled loudly and she was sitting near the ground. Also not everyone yells abuse at the football. Myself and a lot of other supporters find it annoying if you get stuck sitting next to abusive fans. Usually the umpires get abused more than anyone else. Fans tend to yell louder when there is a goal or exciting action and can actually be reasonably quiet for a crowd at times so maybe she yelled out when there was a lull. There's no doubt she said it so he Goodes must have heard her.
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Dafyd
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# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Actually, you have "automatically lost the argument" only in the minds of those who think you have. Of course, you haven't lost the argument for those who realise that you may have made a good point, and the Nazi analogy may have been appropriate.
The Nazi analogy is sometimes appropriate. There are two possibilities when you come across someone using a Nazi analogy:
a) they have carefully considered whether there is in fact a better analogy, and have decided that Stalinism, Italian fascism, et al are not appropriate: nothing but Nazism will do.
b) they are lazily making an analogy with the Nazis for emotive effect regardless of whether it's appropriate or not.
Now it's possible that any given analogy with the Nazis is a case of a). Anything is possible. They might be discussing a country where homosexuals are being forced to wear pink triangles, in which case the Nazi analogy would be appropriate. But the chances are overwhelmingly in favour of b).
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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the giant cheeseburger
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# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
Am I right in concluding from this debate that while association football is played by ruffians watched by gentlemen and rugby is played by gentlemen watched by ruffians, in Australian Football the ruffians are both on the pitch and the terraces?
No. You get civil elements and nastier elements in all football codes, and there is definitely no hooligan element in AFL like there is in soccer.
In Adelaide at least, I would certainly feel much safer going to an AFL match that I would to an A-League (soccer) match. The AFL fans never need to be segregated by team and escorted away from the stadium by separate routes.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
[AFL hooligan tangent]
I like the game; as part of my general enjoyment of team games on big fields, I've got into AFL more over the past couple of years and it's a good game to watch.
So far as hooliganism is concerned, its great advantage over soccer (and you can say similar things about rugby and NFL) is that there is much more scoring, which means less tension and significance in each team's attempts to score. Scoreless soccer builds up tensions to a much greater extent; it doesn't tend to happen nearly as much in the other codes.
AFL is both very physical and, technically, looks very skillful. I'm finding that watching it is refreshing.
[/AFL hooligan tangent]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl
It usually also means that you have automatically lost the argument, as you have had recourse to such a threadbare and pathetic analogy, just as Goering did when he compared life to a chicken sandwich.
Actually, you have "automatically lost the argument" only in the minds of those who think you have. Of course, you haven't lost the argument for those who realise that you may have made a good point, and the Nazi analogy may have been appropriate.
You can't actually technically 'lose' an argument on the internet, because there is no judge and jury - only the variegated opinions of a motley collection of all and sundry, who happen to show up.
'Godwin's Law' is just an observation. It's not a rule of logic. But then again, quetz, you were probably just talking with tongue in cheek, as Godwin's Law is...
I was hoping that you might get that, since I used a Godwinism in the middle of my discussion of Godwin, i.e. Goering comparing life to a chicken sandwich! I thought this was very postmodern, or Brechtian, if you prefer.
[ 30. May 2013, 14:09: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Talking about calling people apes, could we not all put together a class action against this outrage?
I mean, really....
(Or is this a case of: we can have our philosophical cake, and eat our "outrage at its logical application" cake at the same time? ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) )
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
The thing about the word ape, EE, is that sometimes it means all Hominoidea, and sometimes it means all Hominoidea outside the genus Homo. Generally speaking, when you're trying to point out similarities within the superfamily, humans are in, but when you're pointing out differences, humans are out.
When "ape" is shouted at a person from an Aboriginal background, for example, it's not because someone's pointing out his opposable thumb or his lack of a tail.
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