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Source: (consider it) Thread: Anticiganism and Madeleine McCann (again...)
L'organist
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quote:
posted by ExclamationMark
I'm simply observing that with different family dynamics the response from statutory authorities would, in all likelihood, have been very different.

But we don't know what the response from "statutory authorities" has been in the McCann case - or in the case of Tia Sharp either, come to that. The only "authority" we do know about - the Portuguese police - responded by naming both McCann parents as persons of interest in the disappearance of their daughter and keeping them in the frame for nearly a year. And the recent book by the detective in charge of the case states quite clearly that he still thinks they killed their daughter.

It was publicised that the McCanns had been visited by Social Services after their return from Portugal but what transpired from that visit we don't know - anymore than we know whether or not Social Services put Tia Sharp's her younger half-brother on the At Risk register.

We do know that Shannon Matthews' 6 half-siblings were taken into care but that was because their mother was incarcerated.

quote:
Not to mention the seemingly generally accepted assumption that we all pop out for a few minutes and leave our children unattended: some may do, others don't. If ever I was tempted to do that I remember a funeral I took for a young girl who died in a house fire whilst left on her own.
I too was shocked at the general assumption among some journalists that leaving one's children alone at night when on holiday was acceptable. Yes, I know there used to be a "baby-listening service" at Butlins and other holiday providers - and that always struck me as being unsafe too.

If you need to go out you must ensure that there is in the family home a person whom your children know and who is capable of responding appropriately if they become unwell or wake in need of emotional reassurance - a baby-sitter in other words: no baby-sitter should equal no night out for one or both parents. I know that sounds harsh but no one said parenthood was going to be easy or require no sacrifices.

As for the other point up-thread about security: most of us have proper locks on our front doors so if we are in the back garden the house should be as secure as if one were going out for the evening. If you secure your house against intruders who may steal your property, how much more important to protect your children?

[ 23. October 2013, 16:45: Message edited by: L'organist ]

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Chorister

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Well, the world used to be based on trust. In the street where I lived, all the parents used to look out for each others' children. So now we must all go around being paranoid and not letting them out of our sight? Surely the people in the wrong are the ones going around snatching children, not those who are trying to allow their children to actually grow up and get a small taste of (appropriate) freedom as they grow?

I wonder if some of the media attention is because middle class parents who are supposed to be helicopter parents, hovering over their child's every move and closely organising their every activity (although they also get blamed for that!) have, in this case, acted like working class parents who traditionally have allowed their kids to be more free range.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:


quote:
Not to mention the seemingly generally accepted assumption that we all pop out for a few minutes and leave our children unattended: some may do, others don't. If ever I was tempted to do that I remember a funeral I took for a young girl who died in a house fire whilst left on her own.
I too was shocked at the general assumption among some journalists that leaving one's children alone at night when on holiday was acceptable. Yes, I know there used to be a "baby-listening service" at Butlins and other holiday providers - and that always struck me as being unsafe too.

If you need to go out you must ensure that there is in the family home a person whom your children know and who is capable of responding appropriately if they become unwell or wake in need of emotional reassurance - a baby-sitter in other words: no baby-sitter should equal no night out for one or both parents. I know that sounds harsh but no one said parenthood was going to be easy or require no sacrifices.

As for the other point up-thread about security: most of us have proper locks on our front doors so if we are in the back garden the house should be as secure as if one were going out for the evening. If you secure your house against intruders who may steal your property, how much more important to protect your children?

I'm inclined to agree from my suburban Californian pov. But there are all sorts of cultures where this is very much the norm-- even in the US. In many parts of Hawaii, for example, even quite young children are still very much "free range"-- able to roam about the neighborhood unattended at the age of only 4 or 5, even with both highway and Pacific Ocean as nearby dangers. There's just a more laid-back expectation that people are to be trusted, and neighbors will watch out for one another.

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Doublethink.
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Turns out the Roma have blonde children too.

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quetzalcoatl
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Yes, hopefully this will stop any wave of blond Roma children being reported to the police. As if dark haired people don't have blond children! Possibly this was pure racism.

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Tubbs

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:


quote:
Not to mention the seemingly generally accepted assumption that we all pop out for a few minutes and leave our children unattended: some may do, others don't. If ever I was tempted to do that I remember a funeral I took for a young girl who died in a house fire whilst left on her own.
I too was shocked at the general assumption among some journalists that leaving one's children alone at night when on holiday was acceptable. Yes, I know there used to be a "baby-listening service" at Butlins and other holiday providers - and that always struck me as being unsafe too.

If you need to go out you must ensure that there is in the family home a person whom your children know and who is capable of responding appropriately if they become unwell or wake in need of emotional reassurance - a baby-sitter in other words: no baby-sitter should equal no night out for one or both parents. I know that sounds harsh but no one said parenthood was going to be easy or require no sacrifices.

As for the other point up-thread about security: most of us have proper locks on our front doors so if we are in the back garden the house should be as secure as if one were going out for the evening. If you secure your house against intruders who may steal your property, how much more important to protect your children?

I'm inclined to agree from my suburban Californian pov. But there are all sorts of cultures where this is very much the norm-- even in the US. In many parts of Hawaii, for example, even quite young children are still very much "free range"-- able to roam about the neighborhood unattended at the age of only 4 or 5, even with both highway and Pacific Ocean as nearby dangers. There's just a more laid-back expectation that people are to be trusted, and neighbors will watch out for one another.
My best mate lives near Liverpool. When she first moved into her street, she’d regularly see children out in the streets playing apparently unattended and was a bit gobsmacked. After a few days, she noticed the adults who were doing stuff in the front room and looking out the window regularly etc. All were “watching” the children without making it obvious what they were doing. If they spotted someone they didn’t know or a child went out of sight, the watching became more obvious. Until they realised that she was the new woman at number 30 and therefore okay, all the curtains would twitch as she walked home from work! My friend now takes her turn quietly watching the children.

FWIW, I agree with Chorister. I used to walk home from infants school (!), play outside unattended for hours, pop to the local shops etc. As well as giving you independence, it also teaches you life skills. The people in the wrong are the ones who’ve made it impossible for this generation of children to do that. Many of the kids we know don’t start travelling independently etc until they start secondary school. They do a crash course in wandering about unattended during the summer before they start. Bonkers!

Tubbs

[ 24. October 2013, 11:37: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
There appear to be a number of interrelated problems that work together to exclude the East European (and probably South European) Roma from healthy and productive participation in the wider society, and which frequently lead them into dependency and, in some instances, organised crime. I'm hoping that governments around the region are encouraging the development of community workers to help communities work through their issues, but I suspect that most of the funding and motivation will come from NGOs.

Roma in the Czech Republic are really severely and systematically discriminated against. A few years ago the Czech Republic was successfully prosecuted by the ECHR for segregating Roma children into special needs schools, but very little has changed since then.

Amnesty report.

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Yes "Roma" in the sense used in southern and eastern Europe share a cultural ancestry with British and Irish people who'd call themselves "gypsies" but they have been distinct from each other for centuries.

Well this Czech Romani group seems to identify as Gipsy ...

[ 24. October 2013, 21:38: Message edited by: Ricardus ]

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs
I used to walk home from infants school (!), play outside unattended for hours, pop to the local shops etc.

I used to send my daughters, aged six and four, to a store two blocks away to buy bread. This was almost forty years ago.

Moo

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Jengie jon

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Thirty years ago, I was not allowed to walk home with other girls aged 14 from Girl Guides unless there was an adult with us.

Jengie

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ken
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A little less than fifty years ago, when I was about 8 and my brother 7, we used to walk all over our council estate and out into the farms behind, up to a mile or so away.

Then we moved into the centre of town, which was Brighton, and we made our own way to and from school, and various parks and other places (for those who know Brighton our local swing park ws the Level).

By the time I was 11 I could go pretty much anywhere, down to the beach, out to the Downs, swimming pool, library, all through the centre of town. Probably just before I started secondary school.

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Ken

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs
I used to walk home from infants school (!), play outside unattended for hours, pop to the local shops etc.

I used to send my daughters, aged six and four, to a store two blocks away to buy bread. This was almost forty years ago.

Moo

Our Dad used to send us to buy his cigarettes. Maybe not at 6, but certainly by about 9. We were in our teens before he got us to buy beer or put on bets for him.

We were a nice respectable family. Honest. Dad was on the town council, and a school governor, and Mum was a teacher. It was all quite normal in the 1960s and early 70s. Something changed.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I take it then that the answer to my question is "No", and that all we have are your assertions.

It's a bit more than that.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs
I used to walk home from infants school (!), play outside unattended for hours, pop to the local shops etc.

I used to send my daughters, aged six and four, to a store two blocks away to buy bread. This was almost forty years ago.

Moo

Our Dad used to send us to buy his cigarettes. Maybe not at 6, but certainly by about 9. We were in our teens before he got us to buy beer or put on bets for him.

We were a nice respectable family. Honest. Dad was on the town council, and a school governor, and Mum was a teacher. It was all quite normal in the 1960s and early 70s. Something changed.

Population density? Ease of travel? Transient populations?* All these are greater now than 50 years ago, or so ISTM.


*People moving about, not homeless or travelers, etc.

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Oscar the Grouch

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
A little less than fifty years ago, when I was about 8 and my brother 7, we used to walk all over our council estate and out into the farms behind, up to a mile or so away.

Then we moved into the centre of town, which was Brighton, and we made our own way to and from school, and various parks and other places (for those who know Brighton our local swing park ws the Level).

By the time I was 11 I could go pretty much anywhere, down to the beach, out to the Downs, swimming pool, library, all through the centre of town. Probably just before I started secondary school.

Ditto.

When I was still in infant school(!), I used to walk to school with my older brothers (who were in the junior school next door). When I go back there now, I am astonished at how far it was. And if the weather was good, we used to take a diversion off of the road and through nearby heathland. And my brothers never bothered to make sure that I kept up with them. But that's how it was, back in the 60's. We ALL did it. By the time I started secondary school, I was regularly taking myself off to London by myself, to go to the zoo for the day.

Of course, I never gave my own children the same freedom, although there was a lot of sadness in that. I had enjoyed the ability to roam freely and had many happy memories. I thought we had been very responsible parents, so it is strange now to hear them saying (in their twenties) that they will never give THEIR children the same kind of freedoms that WE gave to THEM!

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
A little less than fifty years ago, when I was about 8 and my brother 7, we used to walk all over our council estate and out into the farms behind, up to a mile or so away.

Then we moved into the centre of town, which was Brighton, and we made our own way to and from school, and various parks and other places (for those who know Brighton our local swing park ws the Level).

By the time I was 11 I could go pretty much anywhere, down to the beach, out to the Downs, swimming pool, library, all through the centre of town. Probably just before I started secondary school.

And now we wonder how it is that so many children in the 60's and 70's were abused. Isn't the figure one in 3 for the age group 45+?
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Jane R
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Ken:
quote:
Something changed.
Three things, actually.

1. Transient populations, as someone else said. People move about a lot more, following the work (as recommended by Norman Tebbit). Living in or near the same village you grew up in is very very rare. Knowing who your neighbours are and feeling you can trust them to look out for your kids is a factor (though as Exclamation Mark pointed out, it may create a false sense of security). And adults used to talk to children more; nowadays they're so terrified of being accused of child abuse that they hardly dare speak to children they don't know, and if they do they will probably be ignored because all the children have been told not to talk to strangers.

2. More traffic. When I was a child I was allowed to ride my bike all over the village we lived in (though not to go further afield without a grown-up until I was in my teens). I went to the village shop to buy something for my mother for the first time at the age of about 8. The traffic's not so bad in our village, but in a lot of places you have to cross several busy roads to get to the shops. If there are any shops within walking distance, which is by no means certain.

3. Media coverage of child abuse, murder and kidnapping cases. It creates the impression that nobody else can be trusted to look after your child - not even those nice people at the nursery who have all been CRB checked and are supposed to be constantly monitored. Telling yourself that this kind of thing is actually very rare doesn't help much - it would only need to happen to your child once.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
And now we wonder how it is that so many children in the 60's and 70's were abused. Isn't the figure one in 3 for the age group 45+?

Speaking from memory of the fifties and sixties, I don't think that many actually were. I never was, but I was rather an unprepossessing child. I can only remember hearing of two instances.

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Ondergard
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I'm with all those who grew up in the fifties and sixties (I turned thirteen in March 1970).

Growing up in an outer London Suburb, verging on Essex (Norman Tebbit's constituency, actually) Epping Forest was virtually our back garden and Central London was a bus ride away - the 38 bus to Bloomsbury Square passed the end of our road in those days.

As small children, we bussed down to Walthamstow, unattended by parents, every Saturday morning, for swimming lessons.

A lot of time was spent in large groups of small children in Epping Forest, when we were weren't wandering around Central London on a Twin Rover going to museums and art galleries... on our own, or in pairs of siblings, or small groups. My mother would give us all a packed lunch and tell us to be back by teatime.

It was all quite, quite wonderful, dahling... but when I had children in the 1980's (who now have children of their own), I would never have dreamed of letting them do what we did. They never went anywhere unaccompanied until they were in their teens, and I'm sure they will be just as cautious with their own children.

I don't know why it changed, but it did. Maybe it was because unlike us, my parents never owned a car, and so couldn't ferry us around everywhere? Maybe it was because my father worked all the hours God sent in London Docks, whereas with me in ministry and my wife in teaching we could offer our children more time? Maybe it was because my mother spent most of my childhood quite ill?

I don't know... but I do know that my children, along with most of their generation, seem to have turned out to be well-rounded confident individuals with just as many life and social skills as we had, if not more in some cases (you'd never get me into a Night Club!) and neither their generation nor mine seem to have, in the end, suffered too much at the hands of the previous one. It's just that the world has changed.

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Heavenly Anarchist
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# 13313

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs
I used to walk home from infants school (!), play outside unattended for hours, pop to the local shops etc.

I used to send my daughters, aged six and four, to a store two blocks away to buy bread. This was almost forty years ago.

Moo

I was brought up in the 70s on the roughest council estate in Luton (poor town in England which had race riots in the 80s) and walked to infants school across the estate by myself and was regularly sent to the shops for bread. Aged 9 I would disappear with my friend all day to fish for tiddlers in the local marsh.
My children are 9 and 12 and we live on a nice council estate just outside Cambridge but I've never sent them to buy anything from the local shop! The eldest travels on the bus by himself to school in a nearby village and the youngest has occasionally walked by himself to school since aged 8 but I know several parents who won't let their children walk by themselves at all or play in the park. Yet I know it is far safer here than where I was brought up.

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Jengie jon

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The thing is that in some communities thirty plus years ago things were if anything more restrictive. There are three things I think that determine this:
  1. How well you know your physical neighbours. That is not how much you like them. If they are the people you grew up with then you are more likely to let your children play.
  2. Your level of fear, the more scared you are the less you likely you are to let children out. The situation above was in an area where the Yorkshire Ripper was operating. Female students were met by male students off the bus when returning from lectures to walk them from the bus stop.
  3. The growth of culture around the car. This is complex. It is not just the ease of getting in the car and going to the shops. It is also the opportunity a car opens up. You can take your kids to the football training that happens on the other side of town. Add to that the hazards it produces. Roads are busier. As a young children, my sister and I were not sent to the nearby shop because it was the other side of a fast busy road with no good crossing place.

If you realise that 1 & 3 also come with relative higher social status. The major driver for the first is I suspect a University Education. The owning cars and being able to get your kids into "good" clubs is I suspect another.

Jengie

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ken
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Yes, I think that's right. It's cars that messed it up for kids.

The "transient population" thing is a red herring I think. We're not talking about pretty little villages but big cities and their suburbs. Full of strangers.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
And now we wonder how it is that so many children in the 60's and 70's were abused. Isn't the figure one in 3 for the age group 45+?

Speaking from memory of the fifties and sixties, I don't think that many actually were. I never was, but I was rather an unprepossessing child. I can only remember hearing of two instances.
That's exactly the point - you didn't hear of it because no one talked about it. Some horrendous behaviour towards children, generally from people in "authority" (police, teachers, priests) that we now consider abusive, was seen as normal or something to put up with. Something to be endured not reported.

That doesn't mean that it never went on and it's only with today's openness that much of this abuse is now being brought into the open.

I take the point raised by Jengie and others about close communities - but has already been stated there are problems even with that. Imagine if you aren't accepted by that community - being black, disabled, of the "wrong" family or social class - and you'll see the difference. In fact, closed communities can exacerbate abuse esp where it's accepted as part of the culture.

Heavenly Anarchist, I lived on one of the toughest council estates in Cambridgeshire in the 1960's and believe me it was a horrendous experience. You grew up fighting physically and (in my case) educationally or you were defeated, classified as fit for nothing for life as I was a the age of 10. Thanks, Mr H.

I also lived in one of the toughest council estates in Cambridge City itself in the early 80's. In either case, there's no way I'd allow any child to go out on their own.

As for today? Well, council policy over the last 30 years in Cambs has uprooted many of the "old" families. There's nothing of the same grinding poverty amongst the poor families - why, some of them even have cars and TV's!

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Jane R
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Ken:
quote:
The "transient population" thing is a red herring I think. We're not talking about pretty little villages but big cities and their suburbs. Full of strangers.
You could be right, but I still think there's been a shift in perception - from 'most strangers do not wish my child any harm' to 'anyone could be a threat'. This is probably because nobody talked about child abuse in the 50s and 60s, as Exclamation Mark says (or if they did, very often they blamed the victims).

The village I lived in as a child was not pretty at all - basically a big council estate. But my grandma lived a couple of streets away from us and my aunt and cousins were just down the road as well.

As you say, cars are definitely a big part of the problem. Public transport is very patchy outside the big cities and the sheer volume of traffic on the road makes cycling or walking very dangerous. Children who live in cities or towns are better off here - at least they have pavements to walk on, and other children to play with.

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Sighthound
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I grew up in Gorton, Manchester, at a time when Brady and Hindley were active. My parents - I am sure - must have worried themselves sick, but the only restriction I had on movement was an expectation that I would be home by a certain time.

As a group of primary school kids we would quite often walk to Marple - which must be seven or eight miles - and come back by train. We also used to go as a group to Crewe to watch steam engines. Not an adult in sight. We also used to crawl (unofficially) round all the local engine sheds, where we could easily have been cut in half by a loco, or have broken our legs falling into a maintenance pit. Funnily enough, we all had common sense and survived without a scratch. We'd be out playing cricket and football till all hours, and were constantly in and out of each other's houses.

I feel sorry for today's youngsters. What tightly circumscribed lives they lead!

[ 25. October 2013, 15:28: Message edited by: Sighthound ]

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L'organist
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# 17338

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See the Portuguese police have re-opened their enquiries into the McCann disappearance.

Apparently the same name has been given by several people for the person in the E-fit picture.

And they've had a good response from people in the Netherlands and Germany too.

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Heavenly Anarchist
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# 13313

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

Heavenly Anarchist, I lived on one of the toughest council estates in Cambridgeshire in the 1960's and believe me it was a horrendous experience. You grew up fighting physically and (in my case) educationally or you were defeated, classified as fit for nothing for life as I was a the age of 10. Thanks, Mr H.

I also lived in one of the toughest council estates in Cambridge City itself in the early 80's. In either case, there's no way I'd allow any child to go out on their own.

As for today? Well, council policy over the last 30 years in Cambs has uprooted many of the "old" families. There's nothing of the same grinding poverty amongst the poor families - why, some of them even have cars and TV's!

I live in Trumpington on a very small estate which is about a third privately owned now. The village school is a good mix of backgrounds and classes and I really like it. It is nothing like the experience of Marsh Farm in Luton where there were regular fights with the high school on the next estate involving chains and knives and several of my classmates were illiterate. The racial tension was awful, my best friend was Muslim and we were both verbally abused because of this. One of my childhood friends became a prostitute when her mother threw her out aged 15.
Everyone on the estate knew each other and each other's business though and my grandparents lived streets away; I was free to roam. Being one of 8 children helped, I think, as we were quite left to our own devices. 3 of my older brothers still live there and I fear for my twin who is partially sighted and another brother with mild learning difficulties as they get older in such an environment. It is rife with drugs, gangs and guns now.

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Zacchaeus
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# 14454

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
A little less than fifty years ago, when I was about 8 and my brother 7, we used to walk all over our council estate and out into the farms behind, up to a mile or so away.

Then we moved into the centre of town, which was Brighton, and we made our own way to and from school, and various parks and other places (for those who know Brighton our local swing park ws the Level).

By the time I was 11 I could go pretty much anywhere, down to the beach, out to the Downs, swimming pool, library, all through the centre of town. Probably just before I started secondary school.

And now we wonder how it is that so many children in the 60's and 70's were abused. Isn't the figure one in 3 for the age group 45+?
trouble is the main perpetrators of child abuse are family, we are so concerned to protect our children form 'stranger danger' that we don't protect them enough from the danger inside;

Current figures formt eh NSPCC

One in seven young adults (14.5%) had been severely maltreated by a parent or guardian during childhood.

More than one in eight children aged 11-17 (13.4%) have experienced severe maltreatment by a parent or guardian.

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Yes, I think that's right. It's cars that messed it up for kids.

The "transient population" thing is a red herring I think. We're not talking about pretty little villages but big cities and their suburbs. Full of strangers.

Right Manchester (Well actually Trafford, no not Old Trafford, we are talking back to back houses) That was where my church was when I was a teenager. There were several older people who were locally raised. One was raised by an Aunt who lived several houses from her parents, another still had brothers and sisters living in the same street!

Another case is my father's family. Birmingham or rather Smethwick, again family living in a few roads of each other and really close by. This happened even though a couple of generations earlier the family was all immigrants (from Barrow in Furness, Scotland or somewhere North of Birmingham we are not quite sure where). People tended when possible to stay together as an extended family.

Sheffield inner suburban Methodist Church ten years ago, there were women in their eighties who were born in the houses they still lived it.

The middle classes do not anymore behave like that and many of these people's descendants are now middle class.

Jengie

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L'organist
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# 17338

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I'm not sure where people are getting some of these figures for abuse.

The statistics produced jointly by the Home Office and NSPCC are as follows:
quote:
25% of children experience one or more forms of physical violence during childhood. For the majority the abuse happens at home and breaches "acceptable standards", i.e. smacking. In all 21% of children experience physical abuse to some degree at the hands of their parents or carers. 7% of children experience serious physical abuse at the hands of parents or carers. in 49% of cases the person responsible for physical violence was most often the mother (49%), in 40% the father. 6% of children experience serious neglect; 5% experience serious absence of parental supervision.
For sexual abuse the figures are
quote:
1% of children under 16 experience sexual abuse by a parent or carer, 3% by another relative. 11% of children under 16 experience sexual abuse by non-relatives known to the family. 5% of children under 16 experience sexual abuse by an adult stranger or someone they had just met. In total, 16% of children under 16 experience sexual abuse during childhood. Overall, 11% of boys and 21% of girls under 16 experience sexual abuse during childhood. The majority of children who are abused have more than one sexually abusive experience. 36% of all rapes recorded by the police in England and Wales are committed against children under 16.

Of children sexually abused in the family, the most common perpetrator is a brother or step-brother 38%; by a father 23%, an uncle 14%, a step-father 13%, a cousin 8%, a grandfather 6%, a mother 4%. Outside the family for 70% its a boyfriend or girlfriend, for 10% a fellow pupil, parental friend 6%, friend of sibling 6%. Less than 1% experience abuse by a professional in a position of trust.

You cannot get a figure for children who have been severely maltreated simply by adding together the percentages for neglect and lack of parental supervision since many children will appear in both categories.

Although the figures for sexual abuse quote separate percentages for fathers and step-fathers these may not be accurate because of the occurrence of adoption of step-children, and the frequent changing of surnames to "match" a new partner.

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Zacchaeus
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# 14454

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Ky figures camestright off the NSPCC website..
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L'organist
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# 17338

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Depending on which part of the NSPCC website you look at you may not have particularly accurate figures - the NSPCC own deputy director has admitted that some of the broad-brush figures used in previous advertising campaigns have been very inaccurate.

There is still a problem with differentiating between abuse -whether sexual or not - done by blood fathers and step-fathers.

Anyway: in a nutshell children are no more likely to be killed today that 40 years ago. It only feels like its a rising tide because of rolling news...

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orfeo

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# 13878

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Well, I now gather that it's been confirmed the Greek Roma were also telling the truth about the origin of the child living with them - she is also Roma.

And blonde.

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Zacchaeus
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The point I was making was that children are at danger inside their home and with people they know.

And so people assertions about children being abused because they were allowed to roam free are unhelpful..

You don't need rafts of individual figures or to distinguish between father and stepfather, to know that homes can be dangerous places too.

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Well, I now gather that it's been confirmed the Greek Roma were also telling the truth about the origin of the child living with them - she is also Roma.

And blonde.

So, what should happen now? Obviously she can't be "restored to her birth family" because they handed her over in the first place, and they're struggling to feed and clothe the children they've got, let alone get another one.

Should she be returned to the family who were raising her? And if not, why not?

[ 26. October 2013, 07:22: Message edited by: North East Quine ]

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Boogie

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# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:

Should she be returned to the family who were raising her? And if not, why not?

Yes, if it's found to be best for the child - papers should be processed and she should be adopted by the family who were raising her imo.
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Penny S
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# 14768

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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:

The middle classes do not anymore behave like that
Jengie

Bit of tangent - this is why the current government do not understand what they are asking when they direct people to move away from their home ground. As if they (the upper middle class government) share more with the nomadic peoples than with the poorer folk in housen.
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Jay-Emm
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
As if they (the upper middle class government) share more with the nomadic peoples than with the poorer folk in houses. [/QB]

Actually that's a really interesting thought, it may be literally true (in some respects). A fair proportion went to the boarding public schools (or at least a commute), university, used to holidays, for the old money may even have a summer home and winter home.
Of course the difference is that the locals have to give way to them.

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Penny S
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# 14768

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That is what I had in mind. Though they would not have had the close family connections of the nomads because of the boarding school episodes, or in the further past, only seeing their parents for a few minutes when at home.

I wouldn't add into it anything about having a similar attitude to the possessions of the settled folk...

BTW, did anyone see the picture of the Bulgarian family's caravan with its ichthus symbol?

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Well, I now gather that it's been confirmed the Greek Roma were also telling the truth about the origin of the child living with them - she is also Roma.

And blonde.

So, what should happen now? Obviously she can't be "restored to her birth family" because they handed her over in the first place, and they're struggling to feed and clothe the children they've got, let alone get another one.

Should she be returned to the family who were raising her? And if not, why not?

I see no reason why she shouldn't be back with the family who were raising her.

Beyond that, I'm more interested in why she was taken from them in the first place. I can't help noticing this happened in Greece, a country where fascism is on the rise. That may just be a coincidence. I worry about the implications if it isn't a coincidence.

In some way the incidents in Ireland are even worse, because in those cases the children were with their biological parents. But someone somewhere managed to decide there was no family resemblance and reported them to authorities. Apparently if a child doesn't fit the stereotypical image of a Roma they can't possibly be Roma and must be stolen.

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Athrawes
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# 9594

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While I share your concerns about The Irish incident, my understanding is that the Greek authorities have had very real problems with child stealing in the last 10 years. This may partially explain the incident, but I really hope someone independent is monitoring the situation.

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Matt Black

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# 2210

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Yes, she can go back to the family that were raising her, provided the proper adoption papers or equivalent are completed by them (and if necessary by her birth family too) rather than merely handed over from one family to another like a chattel.

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L'organist
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# 17338

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But I gather the Greek authorities are still trying to untangle the web around the "foster" family, particularly the business of them having 4 children born to them in 10 months (all single births), etc.

She's staying with the charity for the moment.

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Matt Black

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# 2210

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Well, indeed: usual adoption procedures include assessing whether the proposed adopting family are suitable carers.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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Hang on a minute. Adoption means formally, legally making a change in a child's parents.

Are you suggesting that parents have no power on their own to entrust the care of their child to someone else, while legally remaining the parents?

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Zoey

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# 11152

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That depends on the laws of the country where the situation occurs.

In England and Wales, the legal situation is:

* a person who is not a child's birth parent can gain parental responsibility and the right to look after a child through a variety of legal orders - Adoption Order, Residence Order, Special Guardianship Order;

* a birth parent can arrange for a child to live with a close relative without there being any legal orders in place and (so long as there are no child protection concerns) the authorities won't care and won't want to be involved;

* if a family arranges for a child to live with somebody who is not a close relative for more than 28 days, then that is classified as "private fostering" and there is a legal duty for those involved to inform the Local Authority's children's social-work department, who have a legal duty to do an assessment of the child's welfare.

What counts as a close relative is legally defined. Local Authorities are very unlikely to say that a private fostering arrangement must end unless there are significant child-protection issues. However, the potential vulnerability of children in private fostering arrangements (due to the existence of child-trafficking, amongst many other issues) means that legally the Local Authority social-work department should have oversight of any private fostering arrangements.

I don't know what the laws in Greece say, but the above is, as I say, the legal situation in England and Wales (possibly the whole UK, I get confused) - parents can entrust the care of a child to someone else whilst remaining the child's parent, but if the someone else is not a family member, then legally a social-work assessment should be done to check that the arrangement is okay for the child.

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Zoey

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# 11152

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(If it's discovered that a parent and/or private foster carer hasn't told the Local Authority about a private fostering arrangement when they should have done, then part of the social-work assessment is whether they just didn't know of the legal requirement to inform the Local Authority or whether there is something more sinister (e.g. child trafficking + concealment of the children from the authorities) going on.)

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Doublethink.
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How does that work for boarding schools ? (Or if you prefer, handing your child over to the care of an institution for most of the year in the hope of a long term social advantage.)

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Zoey

Broken idealist
# 11152

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Dunno. Presumably some distinction is made between giving the care of your child over to an organisation and giving the care of your child over to an individual or family (which is private fostering if the individual or family is not closely related to your own). I know about the rules on private fostering 'cos I have to deal with it at work. I've never yet had contact with a child at boarding school through my work and don't know what the laws and policies governing boarding schools are.

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Zacchaeus
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# 14454

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I suspect that boarding schools are an extended version of day schools. They are authorised institutions which act in loco parentis.
It is the under the radar situations that are not allowed.

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