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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: 'Shaming the Tiger': What should churches do?
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irish_lord99
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# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I assume the sequel is that he will have a long talk with Christ about his failings as a miserable sinner and Christ will forgive him and tell him to go back on the lecture/autobiography trail.
His website seems to indicate he's not ready to fess up to his 'failings and sinfulness' just yet.
Hopefully he will find redemption. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
This reminds me very much of Mike Warnke. He seems to still maintain his story (according to his website) twenty years later.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
He seems to still maintain his story (according to his website) twenty years later.
With considerable changes .. the coven of over a 1000 people has shrunk to 13 people of whom most of which are said to be dead (and the rest he no longer knows the whereabouts of).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
... gosh, how convenient (sorry, that should be sad?) ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
Latest update by the Evangelical Alliance UK: Link here.
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Karl Kroenen
Apprentice
# 16822
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Posted
Why aren't people more angry about this Charlatan?!! Sadly this lame and half hearted response to this con man typifies the larger Christian community. There is nothing wrong with some cynicism and wrath where approriate....and in this case it IS appropriate. This man has done so much damage to the Christian cause.
In my church the home groups were studying a series of Tony Antony DVDs for a while last year: he struck me then as a bit odd, so I looked him up on the internet, and a two minute search raised all sorts of odd questions. So I got ahold of his book and nearly laughed my socks off when I read it, most of it taken straight from some 1980's martial arts computer game - pure fantasy! Anyway I tactfully raised my doubts with others in my home group and church who seemed to lap up his every word and claim unquestioningly, but they gently 'humored' me and said I was wrong and that it was all absolutely true and he was a very interesting, powerful man (vomit). Upshot was I left my home group because I wasn't prepared to watch any more of his stuff or even debate it.
Sadly, in my experience too few Christians are prepared to question people like this. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. It makes me so angry. And now what, do I go back to my home group and say 'told you so!' No I won't, I expect the matter will quietly be tucked away and never mentioned again. The man should be publically shamed. He killed someone in a hit and run for goodness sake, and even had the nerve to use this as part of his 'testimony' when all the time he was profiting from the lies he told.
Jesus told us to beware because wolves would come in sheeps clothing.
Tony Anthony is one such wolf.
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God loves you so much that He created Hell, just in case you don't love Him back.
Posts: 34 | From: Bristol | Registered: Dec 2011
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
I think one of the odd bits is the discrepancy about his age when he married. Presumably he had to complete a marriage registration form and I believe knowingly completing these things wrong falls under the Perjury Act 1911 and is therefore liable for criminal prosecution.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl Kroenen:
This man has done so much damage to the Christian cause.
[...]
I expect the matter will quietly be tucked away and never mentioned again. The man should be publically shamed.
To be fair though, if everyone quietly forgets the whole thing then where is the 'damage'?
This isn't the church as I know it but I'm curious; if this sort of thing happens regularly in churches that put people on pedestals then presumably there's also a natural response that kicks in when they fall off said pedestals? Does everyone just go quiet, as you say? Perhaps the big public apologies and offers of forgiveness are also part of this culture. I don't know. But presumably this guy will be 'shamed' simply by virtue of this whole thing coming out. He might have to turn Methodist or URC if he wants to start all over again in a church that's never heard of him!!
This isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened, and it won't be the last.
[ 19. July 2013, 18:02: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chive:
I think one of the odd bits is the discrepancy about his age when he married. Presumably he had to complete a marriage registration form and I believe knowingly completing these things wrong falls under the Perjury Act 1911 and is therefore liable for criminal prosecution.
Yes but mistakes on certificates are not unknown. Ie he could have given his correct age to the local Registrar (and proved it by producing a birth certificate or similar) but the officiating clergyperson may have written it down wrongly.
At the time he was married there was a rather more cavalier approach to checks - they are now much more robust following recent "marriage" scandals.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Karl Kroenen
Apprentice
# 16822
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Posted
quote:
To be fair though, if everyone quietly forgets the whole thing then where is the 'damage'?..... Perhaps the big public apologies and offers of forgiveness are also part of this culture.
And it continues....
quote:
Yes but mistakes on certificates are not unknown. Ie he could have given his correct age to the local Registrar (and proved it by producing a birth certificate or similar) but the officiating clergyperson may have written it down wrongly.
At the time he was married there was a rather more cavalier approach to checks - they are now much more robust following recent "marriage" scandals.
Exclamation Mark and SV2 - this sort of attitude is the whole frickin' problem, already people like you are starting make excuses for him, and to talk about simply forgiving and moving on!
Forgive, sure, providing he's willing to accept it, but don't FORGET! The guy's a WOLF in sheeps clothing taking everyone for a ride. He's made a living by pulling the wool over people's eyes, and most of the Christian church is just too damn naive to see it! Already on his website he's BS'ing that he's just realised he made 'factual errors' and now information has come to light concerning his family history he realises it wasn't quite factually but was true as he saw it...like DUH! You sayin' you didn't purposly lie to a welcoming community!
Anyone looked at what the judge said following his trial for perverting the course of justice, racial abuse (etc...) that he glossed over in his book, check it out, a very different story emerges in reality - he's a manipulative devious individual who wove a web of lies in a desperate attempt to avoid taking resonsibility for his crimes (yes they were crimes).
With the amount of handwrining do-gooders out there it wouldn't surprise me if this fraud wasn't back in business in 12 months time espousing more plaguirised BS. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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God loves you so much that He created Hell, just in case you don't love Him back.
Posts: 34 | From: Bristol | Registered: Dec 2011
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
To be fair though, if everyone quietly forgets the whole thing then where is the 'damage'?
The damage is the creation of a culture where the Noble Lie is accepted - whilst the Gospel should be about Truth. And there are plenty of casualties - usually the teenagers in such churches who then decide everything ever told to them is false, and that their parents are liars.
quote:
Does everyone just go quiet, as you say? Perhaps the big public apologies and offers of forgiveness are also part of this culture. I don't know.
The culture is that if he had been exposed to be having an affair or something there may have been a big tearful apology and a public restoration of sorts, however the type of offense probably means a quiet forgetfulness - and he'll pop up in other circles who will insist that at least part of his story must be true, and oh look at the people he brings to Christ. So no, it's not about forgiveness, at least not in any real sense. It's more about preserving power structures.
This is the kind of thing Gamaliel often brings up in other threads about evangelicalism.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sadly, it is. Don't get me wrong. I've got a lot of time for evangelicalism but it really ought to clear the shit out of its Augean Stables.
A good place to start would be to 'fess up to swallowing bull-shit whenever that happens.
It's the failure to acknowledge bollocks when it happens and to inculcate an overly dualistic and unrealistic approach to life that is to blame.
It comes with the territory, though.
It's hard to imagine evangelicalism without the bullshit but if it scrubs and swishes hard enough it might clear some of the crap.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl Kroenen:
Exclamation Mark and SV2 - this sort of attitude is the whole frickin' problem, already people like you are starting make excuses for him, and to talk about simply forgiving and moving on!
Forgive, sure, providing he's willing to accept it, but don't FORGET!
If the guy's guilty of crimes then he should be punished according to the law. And I never said that the church should treat this man's behaviour as though it were nothing. In fact, in a previous post I implied that this man's attitude should influence the church's response. If he's not in a place of true humility and repentance then the church is certainly under no obligation to offer him a free ride of any sort.
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles
The damage is the creation of a culture where the Noble Lie is accepted - whilst the Gospel should be about Truth. And there are plenty of casualties - usually the teenagers in such churches who then decide everything ever told to them is false, and that their parents are liars.
I feel that most churches have difficulties with openness and hence create casualties, but I accept that situations like this one with Tony create casualties in a more dramatic and immediate way.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think that's a fair point, SvitlanaV2. I'd suggest that what happens within evangelicalism is generally a more 'realised' or apparent version of what happens everywhere else.
Because the spirituality is rather more 'full-on' then the mistakes/failings can be rather more immediate and spectacular too.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl Kroenen:
quote:
[QUOTE] Yes but mistakes on certificates are not unknown. Ie he could have given his correct age to the local Registrar (and proved it by producing a birth certificate or similar) but the officiating clergyperson may have written it down wrongly.
At the time he was married there was a rather more cavalier approach to checks - they are now much more robust following recent "marriage" scandals.
Exclamation Mark and SV2 - this sort of attitude is the whole frickin' problem, already people like you are starting make excuses for him
I'm sorry if you thought I'm making excuses for him - I'm not at all. I pointed out how easy it might be to make a mistake about a number.
I've seen it happen in a church I've attended - in that case an innocent transcription of a Registrar's error. I've also seen 2 instances of it being misrecorded by a year - someone having a birthday between the Registrar sending out the form and the wedding ceremony taking place.
That said, I share your concern about what he's done and the reaction to it. IMHO such action, deliberate deception brings into question whether he should ever speak publicly again.
I didn't rate the guy when I first came across him -- there was a sense of it all being too good to be true. I made my concerns plain within the context of my own church.
I also share the concerns that have been raised here and elsewhere about so called "celebrity" conversion stories. Tbh I'm not over interested in hearing sermons from well known speakers nor stories from celebrity conversions. I'm much more interested in listening to the ministers and clergy who keep alive for God in some tough and under appreciated areas (and who'll never seek or get national recognition) and in listening to the stories of how God is working in the life of people who are ordinary in the eyes of many, but special in God's eyes.
I don't need public or celebrity endorsement for God's Kingdom. To seek that simply looks to me like another fad or homage to consumerism.
Yes the evangelical constituency has its own issues with this kind of thing - but it (they) isn't/aren't alone. People once hung on every word that Steve Chalke uttered; Anglicans have an Archbishop, Catholics a Pope, NFI - Terry Virgo and now, his son. Evangelicals just have to be careful IMHO that in condemning the practices of others, they also root out the canker in their own ranks.
[ 20. July 2013, 07:33: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Anglicans have several Archbishops, and I would have thought it was pretty clear from the flak that Archbishops Justin, Katherine et al have received that Anglicans are in little danger of pre-emptively canonising their senior clergy.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Spot on (and before someone snarkily points out that K J-S isn't technically an Archbishop, the difference here is not relevant). Anglican Archbishops (and Presiding Bishops) generally exercise, in Weberian terms, a combination of traditional and legal-rational authority: they don't, generally, rely on charismatic (in Weberian rather than theological terms) authority. Which is not to deny that the arrangement might have its problems, but they are likely to be different in kind from those in the case under discussion here.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Some years ago a group of church leaders from Our Town - myself included - went to meet Tony Anthony in his office. I had never heard of the guy and was decidedly suspicious (for the same reasons as ExclamationMark - i.e. a distrust of "Christian celebrity"). Everyone else came out of the meeting raving about him and saying, "We must get him to do a mission here" - which he did.
I am not claiming any "gift of discernment" but I just didn't like the guy! There was some sort of apparent over-confidence about him which immediately turned me off him. That isn't to say I thought he was a rogue - I didn't. But I was not at all convinced by his story and I felt that there was some kind of innate aggression about him which I found disquieting.
All very subjective impressions, I know; and little more than a mismatch of personality types. I am sad to discover that my "hunches" were actually based on something more substantial.
[ 20. July 2013, 09:09: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I feel that most churches have difficulties with openness and hence create casualties, but I accept that situations like this one with Tony create casualties in a more dramatic and immediate way.
The issue is that these things end up being a lot more foundational in evangelical circles - so the end result is more dramatic.
The closest parallel I can think of is an inerrantist coming into contact with even the mildest forms of higher criticism.
and actually - what Albertus just said - the difference between the various forms of Weberian authority is the most apt framework for this discussion
[ 20. July 2013, 10:04: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
chris stiles
Ironically, this problem must be exacerbated by the fact that evangelical churches have more young people in the first place. The dangers of Christian celebrity culture can't be much of an issue for some of the more traditional churches if they don't have very many young people in the first place.
Perhaps these different kinds of congregations end up with similar demographic challenges but for different reasons.
[ 20. July 2013, 11:23: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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markporter
Shipmate
# 4276
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Posted
I notice that Antony has published a response on this website defending himself. I'm not sure whether I know who to believe or how to decide. Perhaps I'm just naive.
Posts: 1309 | From: Oxford | Registered: Mar 2003
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markporter
Shipmate
# 4276
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by markporter:
I notice that Antony has published a response on this website defending himself. I'm not sure whether I know who to believe or how to decide. Perhaps I'm just naive.
Oops. I somehow missed the second page of the thread.
Posts: 1309 | From: Oxford | Registered: Mar 2003
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think there are some very good points here from all sides - not that I see a great deal of 'opposition' here but we are all coming at this from slightly different angles.
I'm not surprised that both ExclamationMark and Baptist Trainfan were ahead of the game to a certain extent in terms of discernment ... I'm not trying to butter either guy up but on the whole my experience of Baptists has been that they are reasonably good at sussing out things that are iffy or suspect.
Where I would part company with ExclamationMark to some extent is his attempt to correlate 'celebrity status' in this sense with the role of bishops, Popes, new-church style 'apostles' and so on as if somehow Baptists are immune from this particular tendency. I don't believe that is true at all. You can get Popes and celebrities at a congregational level just as much as you can in an episcopal, presbyterian or any other kind of setting.
Besides, if he thinks that Anglican bishops are put on a pedestal either by their own diocesan clergy or by the faithful in the pews then he obviously hasn't had that much experience of Anglicanism ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think SvitlanaV2 is on the money though, with the comment that there are different demographic challenges according to age profiles and so on.
Here where I live, the local liberal-catholic Anglican parish is losing young people and young families to the evangelical one precisely because the evangelical one has yoof-work and lots more going on for families and so on ... even if a lot of it is, in my own view, dumbed-down to an excruciating degree.
The concern I have is that whilst it's great to have a young and vibrant congregation the corrolary of that so often is that it feeds a kind of adolescent spirituality ... and that's when incidents like this occur.
People are so desperate for 'success' and good news and so on that they'll swallow almost anything at times. It's a bold pastor or church-leader who can take a stand against this sort of thing. I congratulate ExclamationMark and Baptist Trainfan for having done so.
More power to both their elbows ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
You are too kind! I didn't "take a stand" - I merely felt uncomfortable with the man. But I certainly wasn't enthusiastic, unlike my (more Evangelical) colleagues, who seemed very taken by him.
To answer the OP, it may be too simplistic to suggest that Philippians 1:15-18 applies; this ends: "The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached".
[ 20. July 2013, 17:27: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
1. I'm not surprised that both ExclamationMark and Baptist Trainfan were ahead of the game to a certain extent in terms of discernment ... I'm not trying to butter either guy up but on the whole my experience of Baptists has been that they are reasonably good at sussing out things that are iffy or suspect.
2. Where I would part company with ExclamationMark to some extent is his attempt to correlate 'celebrity status' in this sense with the role of bishops, Popes, new-church style 'apostles' and so on as if somehow Baptists are immune from this particular tendency. I don't believe that is true at all. You can get Popes and celebrities at a congregational level just as much as you can in an episcopal, presbyterian or any other kind of setting.
3. Besides, if he thinks that Anglican bishops are put on a pedestal either by their own diocesan clergy or by the faithful in the pews then he obviously hasn't had that much experience of Anglicanism ...
1. Well, it does help having a minister friend who is an ex prisoner and who knows a few dodges from both sides. I'm not sure how much discernment I actually exercised on the ground .... it just didn't seem right. The church I'm part of (rather more con evo than Trainfan's) would probably be the kind of territory very open to TA but there were others who also had reservations.
Trouble is I have an in built detector for a bit of a story that is the truth + additions or not the truth. I spent 17 years in retail finance and heard every story under the sun as to why people couldn't pay their mortgages. In ministry I've picked up the pieces when a former poster boy pastor went wrong, so I've seen spiritual deceit at first hand. TA had all the hallmarks - esp the spectacular stuff that couldn't be verified for security reasons.
2. Yes well it was tongue in cheek, hence the reference to Steve Chalke. I might just as easily referred to certain others in BUGB who are idolised ... or even in my last church where a predecessor was lionised 25 years after he'd left.
3. (Screams) you mean to say that not everyone has a picture of their Bishop on the living room wall? Now I know why I left the Anglican church after 15 years.....
[ 20. July 2013, 17:58: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Having a sense that all isn't quite as it seems counts as discernment in my book.
Of course, it's more than that too.
What worries me, and I've seen it happen and it's happened to me, is when we allow apparent glitz or pzazz to over-ride our unease in such circumstances. I've gone along with a whole load of things that I wished I'd spoken out on or opposed more vociferously.
That said, I have also opposed things when I've felt it necessary - in all the church settings I've been involved in.
We don't any of us get it right all the time.
I still think, though, that there is some settings - not necessarily all evangelical or charismatic by any means - that are more intrinsically open to deception.
I suspect an overly simplistic cause-and-effect and let's focus on the upbeat form of spirituality is part of the problem.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Here where I live, the local liberal-catholic Anglican parish is losing young people and young families to the evangelical one precisely because the evangelical one has yoof-work and lots more going on for families and so on ... even if a lot of it is, in my own view, dumbed-down to an excruciating degree.
The concern I have is that whilst it's great to have a young and vibrant congregation the corrolary of that so often is that it feeds a kind of adolescent spirituality ... and that's when incidents like this occur.
All the same, I think it's a bit harsh to criticise Christian parents for moving to a 'yoof' church when their children are indeed 'yoof'. Maybe Christian parents these days have to be pragmatic on behalf of their children, since the surrounding culture is such infertile ground for the transmission of the faith. And we shouldn't be expecting our churches to provide all of our theological education anyway - so I'm told.
Liberal-Catholicism isn't going to disappear (so long as the CofE keeps subsidising it!!), so after 10-20 years or so of Christian celeb culture and dumbed-down worship songs, the family can still return to their roots. Perhaps liberal-Catholicism is a bit like opera - best enjoyed by old folks.
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by markporter:
I notice that Antony has published a response on this website defending himself. I'm not sure whether I know who to believe or how to decide. Perhaps I'm just naive.
That reminds me of Lance Armstrong. Just before the report was published, he wrote a piece defending himself and arguing the enforcing body had taken agin him. It was plausible and I wanted to believe it. Subsequent events have undermined it rather....
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
As far as I can tell, all the defense on his website consists of is:
- I was told the old guy who taught me kung-fu was my grandad, but he wasn't
- I dramatised some dialogue
- I changed some names to protect people
- This stuff is normal for the genre
This doesn't come within a country mile of answering the detailed critique.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I think you need to add the Scripture passages he quotes which basically seem to say, "Every faithful servant of God is bound to encounter opposition and criticism; what I'm going through is par for the course so hey! I must be doing things right".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
What should churches do? Tell the truth and shame the devil? And find a loving way to do that?
I think there is a deeper issue at work. One of the formative books I read in the late 50's/early 60's while still in my teens was Vance Packard's The Hidden Persuaders. Basically about manipulation by advertising, it opened my mind at least to the different ways in which persuasive hooks are lowered into human minds to achieve desired effects. I've lived long enough to see the relatively primitive but quite effective techniques in use then become more sophisticated and more generally applied in fields such as politics, news media and, yes, religious prosyletisation. I don't think fraudulent statements for effect are anything new, by the way. What is new is the development of powerful manipulative techniques.
I guess we all need to face an uncomfortable truth which is that we all edit our own personal history, sometimes to avoid shame, sometimes to make ourselves more interesting, sometimes just for the sake of a good story. We don't need much encouragement to do that, but living in a culture which is generally "economical with the actualité" makes it easier to justify to ourselves.
The problem of ubiquitous lying and evasion is that it has created a general distrust of the truth of the spoken word. Chris Froome has just discovered this in the Tour de France. Lance Armstrong has done more than just damage himself by making a career out of cheating and lying about it. And that example can be multiplied.
I think the real message for the church in our culture is to put a lot more emphasis on deeds than words. Words on their own have been largely deprived of their power to convince anyone. And so far as "shiny testimonies" go, treat them with a large pinch of salt, whether they are written or spoken. They may be salve for itching ears, but truth is not always comfortable and is often messy.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I wasn't criticising people with families from the liberal-catholic parish for attending the evangelical parish for the yoof work, SvitlanaV2. I was simply stating a fact. We gravitated towards the evangelical parish when we moved here because we both come from evangelical backgrounds - although I've been on a trajectory away from that to some extent - and because our kids were of a similar age to the vicar's and because there was yoof-work there.
What I was doing was criticising the evangelical parish of dumbing things down.
Yes, I agree that more traditional forms of Anglicanism appeal to older people. It appeals to me now I'm in my 50s in a way it didn't appeal when I was in my 20s and 30s.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zebra
Apprentice
# 17773
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Posted
Discrepancies with his date of birth were certainly no mistake. There was a wrong date of birth not only for his marriage.
according to http://crosswire.org.uk/tag/tony-anthony/:
"He used his correct date of birth on official records when he registered Avanti Ministries Ltd in 2003; but two years later he submitted a change of details form to Companies House amending his birth year to 1969."
"The most surprising aspect of the court case is that Tony Anthony was convicted using a false date of birth.
A certificate of conviction released by Reading Crown Court shows his date of birth as 7th August 1969 rather than the true date of birth, 30th July 1971."
Posts: 1 | Registered: Jul 2013
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David Matthias
Apprentice
# 14948
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Posted
Soul Survivor had to deal with similar with that Pastor's son who was healed of cancer, wrote a song, then it turned out he did not have cancer but was addicted to pornography. I don't see the link but that was the story.
I think the days of the traveling testimony are greatly diminished. I remember seeing the "jellyfish man" and wondering about it.
It's not that I am even accusing him of lying, but I do think quite a lot of it is unverifiable.
It certainly makes me consider that real stories from real people in your own congregation who you can vouch for might be a little less sexy in terms of marketing but reduce the risk of egg on face in the medium term.
Posts: 29 | From: Shrewsbury | Registered: Jul 2009
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Matthias:
I think the days of the traveling testimony are greatly diminished. I remember seeing the "jellyfish man" and wondering about it.
Just correlate it with every other person who claims to have had the same experience and discount it appropriately.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Gracie
Shipmate
# 3870
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Posted
Some bookshops are now apparently offering to refund money against the return of Tony Anthony's books.
This site also has a very good series of questions the bookshop asked Avanti, without getting any answers from them.
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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine
Posts: 1090 | From: En lieu sûr | Registered: Dec 2002
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
National press now on it: link to The Grauniad.
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
This reminds me very much of Mike Warnke. He seems to still maintain his story (according to his website) twenty years later.
My.
God.
I remember our family going to see one of his comedy shows when I was young. Back then, I thought his worst quality was his love of fast food.
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
National press now on it: link to The Grauniad.
Amusingly a quick google will show that questions about his story were raised up to 6-7 years ago on various martial arts forums. They questioned the implausibility of some of his claims - for example his claim to have carried a cauldron full of molten steel with his bare elbows, his claim of wrestling with a wild white tiger in South China (both straight out of chop socky films).
It seems as a result of a lack of citations his wikipedia page was deleted at least once.
The christian community was predictably a lot more gullible.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Mr Anthony was taken at face value by people who invested a lot in his being the real deal.
Those people - and churches - should examine why they feel a need for conversion testimony and heroics rather than the day-to-day heroism of people who just get on with life.
Churches that welcomed him must 'fess up to their congregations and take the flak.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Mr Anthony was taken at face value by people who invested a lot in his being the real deal.
Those people - and churches - should examine why they feel a need for conversion testimony and heroics rather than the day-to-day heroism of people who just get on with life.
Kinda, sorta. In idly googling I found a couple of links:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=60260&page=57&p=2405231&viewfull=1#post2405231
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=60260&page=58&p=2407677&viewfull=1#post2407677
The original thread goes back to sometime in 2007. The posts there are dated 2010.
If you look at the information put up by EA and others - the impression (perhaps unintentionally) given is that new information that has recently come to light - specifically the claims about his ethnicity, the claims about being a bodyguard for a Saudi Ambassador, the claims of plagiarism. Yet it is clear that at least 3 years ago various people had contacted his co-writer and publisher to make them aware of this information.
The EA doesn't go into the ludicrous nature of some of his other claims (to have driven a camel across 190km of the Empty Quarter, to have carried a cauldron of molten metal - straight out of a shaw bros film).
Without a full mea culpa the impression given is that of a cover up - not in the conspiratorial sense - but rather that the various parties involved (including the EA) would prefer it if the entire affair was forgotten as soon as possible.
[ 30. July 2013, 10:14: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Maybe they should start with looking at various things they could have checked and didn't - for instance - Saudi Arabia has never had an ambassador to Cyprus
- the name of TA's grandfather being the same as a famous US chinese-impersonating magician (Chung Ling Soo - died 1918 London when bullet-catching trick went wrong)
- Riyadh's Le Meridien hotel didn't open until 2006 (+ TA spells the name wrong)
- hostile takeovers were pretty rare in the 1980s
- the Saudi stock exchange didn't open to foreigners until 2011
- the Al Yamamah Saudi/UK arms deal was signed in 1985 - it is inconceivable that a Saudi diplomat would have dealt with small-scale arms dealers around the same time
- for any diplomat being ambassador in London would be the pinnacle of their career - they wouldn't go backwards to Italy and Cyprus (or Malta)
- if he was at school in London in his teens why can't he produce school friends to verify this bit of his story
For the EA to claim that doubts about TA's story have come as a bolt from the blue is not credible: there have been doubts all over the web since 2008; the big question is why is the EA still in denial?
If the EA still refuses to row back on its cosy relationship with TA then I'd suggest churches should consider their relationship with the EA as a matter of some urgency.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
For the EA to claim that doubts about TA's story have come as a bolt from the blue is not credible: there have been doubts all over the web since 2008; the big question is why is the EA still in denial?
I agree with you - and from outside it is hard to see it as anything other than a form of damage limitation ("I'm shocked, shocked!").
I have a theory that the more 'miraculous' and 'spectacular' claims have been left unquestioned by the EA because of the prevalence of such claims among a certain segment of high-profile evangelists - and also a fear of seeming to cast doubt on the 'supernatural'.
The EA has a habit of trying to see which way the wind is blowing and then jumping to the winning side while trying to keep all their constituents happy (their report on prosperity theology was a very good example of this).
[ 30. July 2013, 12:31: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
Latest: EA kicks out Avanti. Phew...
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Jonah the Whale
Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244
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Posted
Does anyone have any (polite) suggestions about what I can do with a signed copy of Taming the Tiger?
Posts: 2799 | From: Nether Regions | Registered: Aug 2001
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
Does anyone have any (polite) suggestions about what I can do with a signed copy of Taming the Tiger?
Post it back to them with a letter saying why you are returning it and expressing your disappointment/anger/whatever else.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
Does anyone have any (polite) suggestions about what I can do with a signed copy of Taming the Tiger?
Ebay?
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
Does anyone have any (polite) suggestions about what I can do with a signed copy of Taming the Tiger?
Read it again and laugh.
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Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
The (questionable) man in question is now upside down:
Kiwi news article.
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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