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Source: (consider it) Thread: From TICTH - The dozy chav
lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Figbash:

Moreover, I am sure that the word 'valued' is loaded in such a way that, no matter how I respond, no matter how strong my evidence, you will still find some way of claiming that it doesn't really constitute women being valued, but is merely exploitation.

Not loaded. Doubting, yes, but not loaded. You list the women of Sparta, but they were not only different to Athens, but the rest of Greece and the Mediterranean. And yes, the list is longer than that. It does not change that the great majority of women in the great majority of societies have been valued primarily for bearing children and that attractiveness has been a main factor in gaining a mate.

quote:
Originally posted by Figbash:

That is, of course, the advantage of overarching single narrative theories: they can be used to explain anything (and nothing).

And you do not see your "feminist agenda" argument is exactly this?


quote:
Originally posted by Figbash:

In other words, it is a determination to adopt victimhood as a badge of honour. Which is where we started in on all this.

No determination to adopt victimhood. It is the same argument faced by black people in the West.
If one is never allowed to point out the wrongs, the wrongs will not be righted.

Victimhood is a label for the ones who never try.
Not for the for the ones who shine a light on the very real obstacles in their path as they move forward.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Gee D
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Perhaps Ms Cunningham could contact Geoffrey Edelsten, who seems to have a preference for pneumatic women much younger than he.

On a much more serious note a 15 or 16 year old girl showing no breast development, would seem to have some problem requiring medical treatment. Both here and in the UK, that sort of treatment is and ought be available through the public health system, free of charge to her. It is unfortunate that either she was not better advised as to a suitable result, or chose not to accept any such advice. If the latter, perhaps an over-reaction to her flat-chestedness?

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Autenrieth Road

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What are the suitable size of breasts a woman should have?

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Truth

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Gee D
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Good point, but I think you know what I mean. Apart from anything else, think a few years down the track, some more children perhaps, and the usual effect of age - she may well be very uncomfortable. But as my avatar suggests, I'm a grumpy old man.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
What are the suitable size of breasts a woman should have?

Yes, we are back to the issue of authority, or in fact, authoritarianism. Should we have a situation where a patient is offered choice, but then told that her choice is not acceptable? Or the NHS could simply offer no choice - but I think that goes against one of its philosophical bases.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
What are the suitable size of breasts a woman should have?

The size she is comfortable with.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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quetzalcoatl
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I was interested in the points made by Figbash, for example, on tightlacing, that in fact, this was often desired by women, and not imposed by men. And also, that various fantasies about damage to internal organs were common in the 19th century - I think doctors and clergymen were often opposed to tightlacing. I'm not sure why clergymen were, perhaps some kind of moral objection to female curves?

But the thing I find puzzling is that this is often a matter of interpretation. How do we tie this down empirically?

One of the problems here is to do with unconscious motives - did women want corsets because men wanted a certain body shape in women? And were they aware of that motive? There are many anecdotes of mothers tightlacing their daughters - to achieve the desired body shape. But does this mean that corsets were part of female culture?

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by Figbash:

Your argument shows the standard fallacy of feminist theory. It assumes that all women (save, of course, the feminist theorist) are pliant victims who are incapable of doing anything save because men want them to. This is deeply offensive to women. It is also deeply patronising, in that the feminist theorist appears to believe that she has the right to say what women should and should not do, which makes me wonder in what way she is meant to be better than the patriarchs. And worst of all, it has little, if any, basis in truth.



Or is it just something that feminist theory teaches you in its 'All women but me are victims 101' class?

If you read the correspondence in the ladies' magazines of the period, or the horrified commentary by their menfolk, you might see why one might describe it as a passion.




And I don't buy the desire to impose the really very, very unpleasant world view of feminist theory on women and men all over the world. It looks at the world and sees all men as vicious exploiters and all women as dumb slaves. It sees women the world over who insist that its interpretation of their actions is wrong, and replies that it doesn't buy it, and they must be victims really. If any of its practitioners had the slightest shadow of intellectual integrity, they would see this as reason to dump the theory and get a better one. One must conclude that they do not.

You seem to be blaming me for all the "feminist theory," in the world simply because I'm against the trend of implanting artificial breasts. I've actually never had a course in feminist theory or read any books on the subject, so it's odd that you think I'm quoting from freshman class 101.

I don't blame men for everything wrong in the world of women and I've never viewed women as helpless victims of the patriarchy.

You are correct about one thing. I haven't read a comic book since I was ten years old when men wrote most of them.

As to tight lacing, I'll take the overall evidence of paintings, photographs and description in novels written at the time, over magazines of the period with specific viewpoints and letters chosen to support that viewpoint.

This thread is about breast implants (along with the NHS) and I certainly don't see women as helpless victims in this. Neither do I see the women who chose to have them as self-empowering Amazons using large breasts as a symbol of their own passion for themselves. I think it's a fashion. Like most fashions there are a number of people who will follow it just because everyone else is doing it, some who feel pressured to conform and some who think the opposite sex wont find them attractive without it.

I think this particular fashion is drastic, invasive and rather stupid. That's my opinion as an individual, not as a spokesperson for feminist theory and not something I'm demanding the "sisters," as you so offensively call them, get on board with.

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Autenrieth Road

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Good point, but I think you know what I mean. Apart from anything else, think a few years down the track, some more children perhaps, and the usual effect of age - she may well be very uncomfortable. But as my avatar suggests, I'm a grumpy old man.

No, I don't know what you mean, and your explanation seems like a post hoc rationalization.

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
What are the suitable size of breasts a woman should have?

The size she is comfortable with.
Exactly.

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Truth

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Paul.
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The thing about restricting NHS boob-jobs to appropriate sizes is that it's using medical rules to try to effect cultural change i.e. we (society) decide that disproportionate large fake breasts are part of a wider pattern of objectification of women and we want to change that by not paying for them. I think if there were were implants on demand on the NHS then I might agree with that, but as we're talking about a procedure that has a medical justification I'm uncomfortable with imposing a moral judgement on the individual patient.

I'm in favour of trying to change the negative cultural norms but to do so using the small minority of women who are in medical need, and who are arguably more vulnerable anyway, seems high-handed to me. It'll also be futile if similar restrictions aren't placed on private operations.

How about this instead: tax private cosmetic surgery and use the money to fund public information campaigns promoting positive body image?

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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
The thing about restricting NHS boob-jobs to appropriate sizes is that it's using medical rules to try to effect cultural change i.e. we (society) decide that disproportionate large fake breasts are part of a wider pattern of objectification of women and we want to change that by not paying for them. I think if there were were implants on demand on the NHS then I might agree with that, but as we're talking about a procedure that has a medical justification I'm uncomfortable with imposing a moral judgement on the individual patient.

I don't think anyone is expecting the doctors to effect cultural change, or to make moral judgments, just that they stick to medicine and stay away from fads. I know that if I went to my dentist to replace a missing tooth and asked him to make vampire fangs, he would refuse on the grounds that he's a serious dentist and not a Hollywood special effects artist. By the same token a doctor who is working to correct abnormally small breasts probably shouldn't be going to the opposite extreme for show business reasons. It's not a moral judgment to make reasonable esthetic decisions.


quote:
How about this instead: tax private cosmetic surgery and use the money to fund public information campaigns promoting positive body image?

Now that I would be against. I think what people pay for privately is their own right, be it eight holes in each ear or three breasts, provided they can find a private doctor who is willing to take their money.

I would like to see cultural change in this as well, but I think it has to come from within, not through any sort of government action.

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Soror Magna
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While we're arguing about the right size of boob job, let's not forget how this thread began:

quote:
Girls don't worry if ur results are poor - you can always have a career getting your t***s out or escorting.
She's not wrong in describing the actual state of affairs in our society and many others. Women's bodies have always been an exploitable commodity. The arguments above about feminist theory* seems to be about who is exploiting whom.

* And I have no idea what anyone here means by feminist theory, because there are many theories of feminism. Maybe she's a socialist feminist and being ironic. [Razz]

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
The arguments above about feminist theory seems to be about who is exploiting whom.

Most, if not all discussions about female porn, prostitution, or the general enhancement of female sexuality distill down to the self-same point.
Who exactly is doing the the exploiting? And which party, male or female, is the one exploited?

Finding agreement with something Twilight said above I too personally dislike the idea of silicone implants, as that which nature provided is often the most beautiful. Having said that I can still understand why many women feel the need to have it done.

No one here is knocking medical advancements that allow people who have been disfigured through injury or illness to be restored, whether it be a woman who's had a mastectomy or a man blown up by a landmine.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Paul.
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
The thing about restricting NHS boob-jobs to appropriate sizes is that it's using medical rules to try to effect cultural change i.e. we (society) decide that disproportionate large fake breasts are part of a wider pattern of objectification of women and we want to change that by not paying for them. I think if there were were implants on demand on the NHS then I might agree with that, but as we're talking about a procedure that has a medical justification I'm uncomfortable with imposing a moral judgement on the individual patient.

I don't think anyone is expecting the doctors to effect cultural change, or to make moral judgments, just that they stick to medicine and stay away from fads.
But by even calling it a "fad" you're invoking a cultural argument. And even if it is a "fad" (personally I think something that's been around as long as implants and shows no signs of disappearing has outlived the fad phase) then saying that it's wrong to follow fads is a moral judgement.

quote:
I know that if I went to my dentist to replace a missing tooth and asked him to make vampire fangs, he would refuse on the grounds that he's a serious dentist and not a Hollywood special effects artist.

Another comparison might be where you are having a "normal" tooth but you and your dentist disagree on which is the best colour match. Choice of analogy tells us something about where our values lie.

quote:
By the same token a doctor who is working to correct abnormally small breasts probably shouldn't be going to the opposite extreme for show business reasons.

Well I'm not talking about the OP specifically, but I understand that the comments about getting implants for career purposes were made after she'd had hers done for medically sound reasons.

But even so, I'd argue that where there are medically equivalent options then the choice should go to the patient. The patient's reasons for their choice are then their own business.

quote:
It's not a moral judgment to make reasonable esthetic decisions.
See I think it is. If two courses of treatment are medically equivalent but have different aesthetic outcomes then telling the patient that her choice is not "reasonable" is a moral judgement. Why should the doctor, the NHS or society at large get to say that her aesthetics are unreasonable?

If the answer is that it's because we're paying then that's using medical treatment to effect cultural purposes. I suspect there are people who are OK with that but I'm saying it makes me a little uncomfortable to go down that route.

quote:
quote:
How about this instead: tax private cosmetic surgery and use the money to fund public information campaigns promoting positive body image?

Now that I would be against. I think what people pay for privately is their own right, be it eight holes in each ear or three breasts, provided they can find a private doctor who is willing to take their money.

It's their right but so are a lot of things that we tax. Using tax as a disincentive toward certain activities as well as a way of raising money is a well trodden path.

Still I don't think it's likely to happen - but I was just trying to imagine something that would be the sort of thing one could do to discourage cosmetic surgery if one thought that it was a negative thing.

quote:
I would like to see cultural change in this as well, but I think it has to come from within, not through any sort of government action.
But restricting which cup size of implants a woman can get on the NHS would be a "sort of government action".

As I said it was more a thought experiment than a real suggestion, but it occurred to me because as well as dubious - to my mind - to try to effect such social changes through medicine, it's also targetting the minority of cases where implants are done on the NHS. So the message gets muddled up with ability to pay and it looks like an attack on poor women. The tax-PI plan was an attempt to think about a more level playing field.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
While we're arguing about the right size of boob job, let's not forget how this thread began:

quote:
Girls don't worry if ur results are poor - you can always have a career getting your t***s out or escorting.
She's not wrong in describing the actual state of affairs in our society and many others. Women's bodies have always been an exploitable commodity. The arguments above about feminist theory* seems to be about who is exploiting whom.

* And I have no idea what anyone here means by feminist theory, because there are many theories of feminism. Maybe she's a socialist feminist and being ironic. [Razz]

Perhaps she's implicitly arguing that it's a good thing that the government is providing an operation that better fits her for the oldest profession, that so it should, this operation should be available under a start-up grant and other girls should do the same.

From that, the next step is the ultimate logic of some right-wing free-marketeers, that unemployed benefit should be withheld from young women unless they can show they have tried this career option and failed.

[ 05. October 2014, 13:12: Message edited by: Enoch ]

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
But by even calling it a "fad" you're invoking a cultural argument. And even if it is a "fad" (personally I think something that's been around as long as implants and shows no signs of disappearing has outlived the fad phase) then saying that it's wrong to follow fads is a moral judgement.


Only I never once said, or implied, that it was wrong to follow fads.
I said I thought doctors should stick to the business of health and leave fashion, including cosmetic surgery, to the people who work in those fields.

I wouldn't ask my doctor to give me botox injections or a tattoo and I wouldn't ask my dentist to knock out a healthy tooth and put in a gold one. It's against their oath to do no harm and their primary mission to fight disease.



quote:
If the answer is that it's because we're paying then that's using medical treatment to effect cultural purposes. I suspect there are people who are OK with that but I'm saying it makes me a little uncomfortable to go down that route.

I haven't said a word about the cost. It makes me extremely uncomfortable to bring money into health decisions. Of course my whole point is that I don't think huge implants have much to do with health.

I am also uncomfortable with the way you keep putting words, and attitudes like this, in my mouth. Talk about moral judgment.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
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quote:
Originally posted by Figbash:
Examination of the literature of the period shows tight-lacing as an exclusively woman-led phenomenon, a passion indulged in despite the opposition of brothers and fathers and husbands. It was, in fact, a kind of proto-feminist revolt, an assertion of identity and right to control one's one body.

This is very interesting. Could you refer me to the literature you mention? And where can I read about how women preferred doctors with forceps to midwives?

quote:
[Your argument shows the standard fallacy of feminist theory. It assumes that all women (save, of course, the feminist theorist) are pliant victims who are incapable of doing anything save because men want them to. This is deeply offensive to women. It is also deeply patronising, in that the feminist theorist appears to believe that she has the right to say what women should and should not do, which makes me wonder in what way she is meant to be better than the patriarchs. And worst of all, it has little, if any, basis in truth.
You're painting with a very broad brush here. Google something like feminism + complicity + resistance and you'll find that there are plenty of feminist scholars who recognize that it's a lot more complicated than that.
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Paul.
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
But by even calling it a "fad" you're invoking a cultural argument. And even if it is a "fad" (personally I think something that's been around as long as implants and shows no signs of disappearing has outlived the fad phase) then saying that it's wrong to follow fads is a moral judgement.


Only I never once said, or implied, that it was wrong to follow fads.



You said that doctors shouldn't follow fads. You also made it clear earlier in the thread that you think that this particular fad is a bad thing:

quote:
I'm against the trend of implanting artificial breasts
I'm really not trying to put words in your mouth, but it seemed like a reasonable inference that you would think following this particular fad would be a bad thing.

quote:
I said I thought doctors should stick to the business of health and leave fashion, including cosmetic surgery, to the people who work in those fields.


But in the case where cosmetic surgery is done for medical reasons you can't entirely separate the "fashion" part. And if the choice is between an approved cup-size NHS operation and none (due to lack of money) then that would be imposing societal standards on an individual. It's that that I'm unhappy with regardless of whether I share those particular standards or not.

quote:
I wouldn't ask my doctor to give me botox injections or a tattoo and I wouldn't ask my dentist to knock out a healthy tooth and put in a gold one. It's against their oath to do no harm and their primary mission to fight disease.
The problem with those analogies is that we've already established that the NHS doesn't do implants for purely cosmetic purposes. So the closer analogy would be an unhealthy tooth that you have replaced with one with a particular aesthetic look.


quote:
quote:
If the answer is that it's because we're paying then that's using medical treatment to effect cultural purposes. I suspect there are people who are OK with that but I'm saying it makes me a little uncomfortable to go down that route.

I haven't said a word about the cost. It makes me extremely uncomfortable to bring money into health decisions. Of course my whole point is that I don't think huge implants have much to do with health.



I didn't say you'd brought money into it. I brought money into it. I brought it up because I was anticipating it as a possible response to my point (and not necessarily from you). And I brought it up because it's been mentioned before on this thread.

It makes me uncomfortable too. I also think it's an inescapable facet of the discussion of medical priorities.

quote:
I am also uncomfortable with the way you keep putting words, and attitudes like this, in my mouth. Talk about moral judgment.
I'm sorry if it comes across like that, it's really not my intent.

I'm trying to argue against a particular idea (medically necessary implants should be restricted in size) not a person. That's what we do in Purgatory isn't it? So my points about moral judgement etc aren't directed at you personally, they are directed at the idea. I think that if, as a society, we were to implement these restrictions then we, as a society, would be making medicine a tool of cultural change and making moral judgements. I'm not saying "Twilight is making moral judgements"

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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While the term 'chav' is foreign to me, the debates about health care and responsibility arent. What should and shouldn't be paid for?

How about obese people pay for their own gastric banding surgery? Or smokers for their cardiac bypass? And obesity related diabetes self pay?

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Lamb Chopped
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[RANT ON] Really, if we start getting all moralistic on people's health care, we might as well cut out pretty much everybody. How many people can say hand on heart that they've never had any share whatsoever in causing any of their health problems at any point in their lives? [Disappointed]

Besides, we don't even know half of what causes many health problems. Granted, if you scarf a dozen doughnuts at every meal you're going to get fat; but this can also happen if you're low thyroid, on antidepressants, live with chronic debilitating pain (which is unfortunately not visible to judgmental onlookers) and etc. etc. etc. There are even indications that some obesity is caused by viruses.

Twenty years ago we could have gotten all judgmental and health-care-denying to people with so-called stress ulcers. Now we know a bit more and we pop 'em on antibiotics and clear up the h. pylori infection we didn't use to know was causing them.

So, yes. Pay for the gastric banding, the implants for the totally flat chested, the infertility treatments. Or risk having some ass get judgmental on you and yours when you need a liver transplant/lung cancer care/dental care etc. etc. etc. And consider investing in a T-shirt to wear everyday that says "No, I really don't drink/smoke/eat lots of candy, thank you" to serve as a shield from all those accusing eyes. Seriously, you can't explain to everyone. And even if you could, why is it any of their business?

I think we need to cut people some slack.*

* Of course, I'm only saying this because I'm a dozy fat uppity daughter of the working class who just happens to have low thyroid, antidepressant use, and chronic pain due to an invisible genetic condition that prevents my joints from functioning properly. But hey, none of those things are visible--no walker or wheelchair yet. So I'm fair game for every jerk on the street who wants to shout slurs at me over my weight, and every fool in the papers who thinks I don't deserve medical care because of my weight. [RANT OFF]

And now I'll get all apologetic and Midwestern for ranting. Sorry, folks. But I've been sniped at the last few days for my size, and I'm at my wits' end figuring out what exercise etc. I can access that won't further destroy my collagen.

[ 05. October 2014, 20:38: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Enoch
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I agree with Lamb Chopped on this. I disagree with No Prophet.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
While the term 'chav' is foreign to me, the debates about health care and responsibility arent. What should and shouldn't be paid for?

How about obese people pay for their own gastric banding surgery? Or smokers for their cardiac bypass? And obesity related diabetes self pay?

I can think of three reasons against that: one, it's unworkable, since it's very difficult to check what unhealthy habits people have; two, poor people would be told to go away and die; and three, basically, it would privatize half the NHS. Well, of course, you could do that, but I quite like the NHS.

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I'm really not sure Figbash is right on corsets - this BBC4 programme on the unseen killers of the Victorian home talks about corsetry as it's second killer and looks at the effects of tight lacing. According to that programme corsetry was rejected by the Rational Dress Society led by Constance Wilde (wife of Oscar).

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