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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Will there ever be a new prayer book for The (US) Episcopal Church?
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
Also note: it's hard to simultaneously blame young people and the "new" prayer book for the numerical decline in the church. The fact that it's no longer a requisite part of New England high society might have more to do with it...
I think it is more that what constituted New England high society has lost its prior prominence, and what constitutes "high society" has significantly changed from years past.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
I suspect that the '79 BCP may prove to be TEC's 1662- endlessly supplemented and modified but never officially supplanted. This is because there is no consensus on how it should be revised- one fraction would like a liturgy along the lines of "Enriching Our Worship", with inclusive language throughout the liturgy both for humans and for God, and with no reference to the Bible as the Word of God. Another fraction, smaller but probably younger on average, would prefer a more traditional Anglican liturgy, including the complete Prayer of Humble Access and "miserable offenders" in Morning Prayer. Members of this group would probably want to replace "and also with you" with "and with your spirit", but would be divided about adding "men" to "for us" in the Creed. While fine with traditional language for God, even the liturgical traditionalists in TEC tend to shy away from using exclusively masculine language to describe groups of human beings of both genders. If there is a new TEC BCP it will probably be along those lines, but not for another generation. Yes, I would agree that the '79 BCP is on the cusp between the era of the liturgical movement and that of the reaction against the liturgical movement, but so was the ASB and that did not stop the Church of England from putting out Common Worship. However the difference is that no-one really liked the ASB while most Episcopalians are satisfied with the '79 BCP.
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Are you sure that "And with your spirit" would appear in the modern-language version of any liturgical revision? After the RCC's recent retranslation, those words seem to represent authoritarianism (and clericalism) to many (not to me, though, who prays for the day no one ever says "And also with you" again). Same thing with "it is right and just" or "meet and just" or anything other than "it is right to give him thanks and praise." These and the modern Gloria would probably remain untouched for "ecumenical" reasons - not only because they remain in several other mainline protestant denominations but because the current RCC translation is seen as the antithesis of ecumenicalism given the way it was prepared and implemented.
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
When Anglicans are only 5-12% of the population, those who seek out prayer book worship or who have stayed with it, do so because that is their preference. If they want more bells and smells, they incline to the Orthodox (the RCs tend to be lower in practice than Anglicans) and if they want something more evangelical, they have dozens of options.
[raises hand]
Question - it's interesting that you use "evangelical" as an antonym of "bells and smells". I wonder about "informal liberal". Is this even a thing? Or just a very small thing?
First, what I mean by that might not be what you mean.
Using my definition, it is a very big element in Canada and is predominant in the UCC and Anglicanism (where the Book of Alternative Services takes primary place and is essentially a form of prayer book worship). In Anglican circles in Canada, there are very few evangelical or bells & smells parishes, and a high degree of liturgical conformity. TEC has a slightly higher degree of practice, but is also marked by adherence to the authorized book.
Quite. I'm very high up the candle for a United Churcher, but by Anglican standards I'm Low Church. My congregation will do a sung communion service as published in the service book and hymn book, but smells and bells aren't even on the radar.
Methodism in North America gets higher the further south you go; many old Methodist places in the United Church are extremely low (Bible Christian or Primitive Methodist) while Methodism in Texas does things that would rate as High Anglican up here.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Are you sure that "And with your spirit" would appear in the modern-language version of any liturgical revision? After the RCC's recent retranslation, those words seem to represent authoritarianism (and clericalism) to many (not to me, though, who prays for the day no one ever says "And also with you" again). Same thing with "it is right and just" or "meet and just" or anything other than "it is right to give him thanks and praise." These and the modern Gloria would probably remain untouched for "ecumenical" reasons - not only because they remain in several other mainline protestant denominations but because the current RCC translation is seen as the antithesis of ecumenicalism given the way it was prepared and implemented.
I don't think it would.
It's worth noting that, as time goes on, the number of people who have ever known the Sursum corda to be anything other than "The Lord be with you/And also with you...It is right to give him/our/God thanks and praise" approaches zero. Language is good by virtue of its prayerful use by the worshipping community; it does not become prayerful language for the worshipping community by being (pedantically?) more correct. With the exception of a few people who are historically inclined, most young people don't even know "And with your spirit" would be an option. And indeed, the shift from a parallelism we're familiar with to Semitic parallelism would require a bit of explanation!
That said, the RCC having changed back may in fact make it more visible in TEC over time, given our large post-Catholic contingent.
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
I do NOT think that Latinisms such as "it is right and just" will ever find their way into Anglican liturgy. "And with your spirit" echos Rite I (which most Episcopalians have attended), and it is also perfectly understandable modern English. The other changes in the new Roman Missal translation are not good English.
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
After the RCC's recent retranslation, those words seem to represent authoritarianism (and clericalism) to many (not to me, though, who prays for the day no one ever says "And also with you" again).
We do well to remind ourselves periodically that the distinction - and any significance read into it - is limited to the English language (and initially to the anglophone RC episcopal conferences, though it later spread from there). One of things I find to be a relief when I sleep in and attend the French Mass at my local cathedral is not having to remember two versions of every phrase. BCP or BAS, page 185 or page 230, the answer to "Le seigneur soit avec vous" is always "Et avec ton esprit."
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Try:
I do NOT think that Latinisms such as "it is right and just" will ever find their way into Anglican liturgy. "And with your spirit" echos Rite I (which most Episcopalians have attended), and it is also perfectly understandable modern English. The other changes in the new Roman Missal translation are not good English.
"It is right and just" is much more understandable than the old "It is meet and right."
What does "It is meet" mean, anyway?
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
From my handy-dandy Merriman-Webster's Tenth Collegiate: precisely adapted to a particular situation, need, or circumstance: very proper syn see Fit
Since this dictionary orders its sense etymologically, it is likely this sense that Cranmer had in mind.
But, you do make your point.
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Try:
"And with your spirit" echos Rite I (which most Episcopalians have attended...
I beg to differ with this. I grew up with the 1928 BCP, but have been to very few Rite I services since the 1979 BCP was approved. My parish never uses it, and I know of almost none that do. Maybe it's geographical.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Maybe it is chronological. If you'd bestir yourself earlier on a Sunday morning you could attend the fabled (and actual) celebration of the Rite I eight o'clock service, celebrated from Boston to Atlanta to Overland Park and on to San Diego and Seattle.
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Julian the Orthodox
Apprentice
# 18107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by Try:
I do NOT think that Latinisms such as "it is right and just" will ever find their way into Anglican liturgy. "And with your spirit" echos Rite I (which most Episcopalians have attended), and it is also perfectly understandable modern English. The other changes in the new Roman Missal translation are not good English.
"It is right and just" is much more understandable than the old "It is meet and right."
What does "It is meet" mean, anyway?
This is why I prefer usage of Elizabethian, Prayer-book English in the liturgy. It tends to be precise, poetic, and harmonises the hymns with the propers.
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Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Maybe it is chronological. If you'd bestir yourself earlier on a Sunday morning you could attend the fabled (and actual) celebration of the Rite I eight o'clock service, celebrated from Boston to Atlanta to Overland Park and on to San Diego and Seattle.
No, the 8:00 service at my church is Rite II -- which is why I said my parish never uses Rite I. Never.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I know of almost none that do.
You were quite clear that your parish never uses Rite I.
Is there is another parish in Hogwarts that does? At the eight o'clock.
Perhaps my coast-to-coast merism wasn't clear enough: there are many parishes that do just that. Rite II at the principal service and Rite I at the eight o'clock.
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
I would agree that the assertion that "the number of people who have ever known the Sursum corda to be anything other than "The Lord be with you/And also with you...It is right to give him/our/God thanks and praise" approaches zero" is an overly broad and sweeping maxim to which assent should be withheld. As someone else pointed out, there are very many TEC parishes that offer rite I at 8AM, and there are even some others for whom it is their standard at all times, That said, the implication that people who have heard "And with thy spirit" are dying off is also questionable. World War II veterans are dying off, yet at the recent D-Day 70th anniversary observances, I was surprised to see how many service vets of the period are still alive. (My own father, one of them, is not.) So "And with thy spirit" veterans, of a period thirty-plus years later, would not be as difficult to find, one would think.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
"It is right and just" is much more understandable than the old "It is meet and right."
What does "It is meet" mean, anyway?
See the third sense.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Around here, 8(30) services cater almost exclusively to the elderly and using the BCP (or at least the simulation in the BAS) is pretty much part of their raison d'ętre. I did know one prayer book parish that used it as an "off-time" to which to punt the BAS service, but otherwise a "modern-language 8 o'clock" would almost be a contradiction in terms.
"Main services" in traditional language would be a minority by now but are hardly unusual: Pigwidgeon's "almost none" would seem a bit extreme unless ECUSA is more dramatically different than I thought from the episcopal churches here. Anecdotally, I would say there's a correlation between a professional choir and the proportion of the music budget, and the likelihood of finding a "Rite I" (p230) service at 10h30 or 11 (though there are also some churches with fine choral programmes in a contemporary language context too).
[ 20. June 2014, 15:56: Message edited by: LQ ]
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Is there is another parish in Hogwarts that does? At the eight o'clock.
Very few -- and they have very low attendance, mostly the elderly who grew up with 1928*. Thus my comment, that the majority of Episcopalians today are not familiar with Rite I.
*Not saying that only elderly grew up with 1928 -- I did -- but those who cling to the Elizabethan language are mostly more the age that my parents would be.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
The TEC parish that several of my friends belong to (and the one parish in the East Bay that is actually growing) never uses Rite I as far as I can tell. I doubt this has any relation to the state of their community, though.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
Although my place does not use Rite I (I have never had the opportunity to celebrate RI at my current posting, I'm rather sorry to say), it really is quite common to have a Rite I early service with the main service Rite II.
Losing Rite I in the transition to a new prayerbook would anger a small-but-vocal minority within the church; that alone might be a reason to tap the brakes on the matter. Even so, I just don't think we *need* a new prayerbook. The 79BCP gave us things that we desperately needed and were not in the 28. What will the 2016 BCP give us that we desperately need and don't have now? Maybe rites for SSM, but we can have those anyway without a new book.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Very few -- and they have very low attendance, mostly the elderly who grew up with 1928*.
That's generally true of "early celebrations," though. I would be surprised if the few places that use modern language for it pull dramatically higher numbers.
[ 21. June 2014, 00:47: Message edited by: LQ ]
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
Losing Rite I in the transition to a new prayerbook would anger a small-but-vocal minority within the church; that alone might be a reason to tap the brakes on the matter. Even so, I just don't think we *need* a new prayerbook. The 79BCP gave us things that we desperately needed and were not in the 28. What will the 2016 BCP give us that we desperately need and don't have now? Maybe rites for SSM, but we can have those anyway without a new book.
Agreed. I would not want to lose Rite I. I don't think it should be removed in any future American BCP. My point was only about "And with your spirit."
And Ceremoniar, I didn't say that all people familiar with Rite I/1928 are dying off. But people who are dying off are disproportionately familiar with Rite I/1928, if you see what I mean. I'm not saying it's close to nobody, I'm saying it's approaching nobody, i.e., decreasing. My point still stands even if we only admit that as time goes on, the proportion of people for whom "And also with you" is "native" increases, which seems impossible to deny over the next 50 years or so.
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Hilda of Whitby
Shipmate
# 7341
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Very few -- and they have very low attendance, mostly the elderly who grew up with 1928*. Thus my comment, that the majority of Episcopalians today are not familiar with Rite I.
*Not saying that only elderly grew up with 1928 -- I did -- but those who cling to the Elizabethan language are mostly more the age that my parents would be.
Very people attend the 8 AM service at my church; I'm one of them. It's always Rite II. I'm fine with it.
I grew up with 1928 and have a very nice copy of the 1928 BCP that I got at the Washington National Cathedral many years ago. I rarely use it--it doesn't have Compline, for one thing--but I'm very glad to have it. I wouldn't say that I "cling" to 1928; more like these are the words that I was soaked in during my formative years--almost like they are part of my DNA. I credit 1928 with giving me an appreciation of the beauty of the English language, and giving me the sense of the majesty of God. That is no small thing.
PS I remember the "trial liturgy" before the 1979 BCP was instituted.
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"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:
...more like these are the words that I was soaked in during my formative years--almost like they are part of my DNA. I credit 1928 with giving me an appreciation of the beauty of the English language, and giving me the sense of the majesty of God. That is no small thing.
PS I remember the "trial liturgy" before the 1979 BCP was instituted.
Well put, indeed. Same here--combined with bits from the Anglican Missal, 1928 contributed substantially to my love of our God and our language, even though at the same time, I also loved Latin in the same way. The latter started with the Ordinary of the Mass, which I frequently heard sung in Latin by the choir, and I beheld the italicized titles/opening words to the psalms in the BCP, along with similar Latin titles for the various prayers in the Anglican Missal.
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
I neither want nor expect a new Prayer Book soon. The one we have, while it can be improved, is adequate for now.
I posted a proposal for the next revison on this board in 2005, but Oblivion doesn't go back that far. So here it is again, in an updated version. The revision of the Nicene creed to conform to its Greek text is not explicitly listed here since General Convention has already resolved that this revision will be made.
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Here are some proposals that the next revision of the American Prayer Book will include if the revision (if ever there is one) is handled by people of good sense:
1. Align the right hand margin, for crying out loud.
2. Calendar:
a. Scrap the following festivals:
August 6: The Transfiguration (Redundant. We have the Last Sunday after the Epiphany for this.)
July 26th: The Parents of the BVM (Silly.)
September 14th: Holy Cross Day (Redundant. We have Good Friday).
b. Delete the following festivals, or transfer them to the 3rd week of Advent:
March 25th: The Annunciation
May 31st: The Visitation
c. List the lunar epacts along with the Golden Numbers. Provide more detailed discussion of the theory of the Easter cycle.
3. Liturgy of the Hours:
a. Devise an Order of Worship for Morning, corresponding to the Order for Evening already provided.
b. Devise more authorised intercessions and thanksgivings that depart from the traditional "collect" format. (The General Thanksgiving already moves in this direction, as do a few other prayers. We might have more such).
c. Translation of the Te Deum Laudamus: return to "We praise you O God." "You are God. We Praise you" may be a slightly better rendering of the Latin, but it's silly English.
d. Venite: Provide, within the pages for Morning Prayer Rite II, a printed contemporary-language version of the old Venite, (i.e.with the verses from Psalm 96.)
e. Allow at least some Psalms to be used as canticles. More generally, provide more scriptural canticles.
4. Liturgy of the Table
a. Amend the rubrics to emphasize the integrity of the Offertory and Thanksgiving as two parts of a single whole: The one should move immediately to the other, and the dialog (sursum corda) at the beginning of the Prayer should never depart from the fixed text: No "orate fratres" or other such intrusions.
b. Eucharistic Prayers: follow the Lutherans in providing for the use of the Pauline version of the words at the cup: "This cup is the covenant in my blood". (One of the transitional Eucharistic Prayers, in the early 1970s, had this, but it got lost in the revision process.)
c. Eucharistic Prayers: Allow for omission of the words of institution altogether. Their presence is a relic of an unfortunate failure of liturgical nerve on the part of the early church: they lost the early mystical understanding of the rite and had to fall back on the legalistic rationale that our Lord had "instituted" it.
d. Eucharistic Prayers: Revise to make the element of thanksgiving clearer. "Therefore we praise you" in the run up the the Sanctus isn't bad, but we could do better, as we do in Rite II Prayer B, in which the main part of the prayer begins "We thank you". All the Eucharistic prayers should give explicit thanks at least as well as this.
e. Order for Eucharist (so-called "Rite III"): amend the rubrics to allow a full meal to be fully integrated with the Eucharist, if carfully and reverently done. The present rubrics (p. 401) forbid this by requiring that a full meal, when one is eaten, always follow the Eucharistic rite.
f. Translation of the Gloria: Replace the present contemporary-language translation with one that translates all the Latin words in their proper order.
5. Ordinations: revise the rites to make more explicit reference to the priesthood of all believers.
6. Language: the new book will never address God as "mother", or refer to him in such a way except in direct quotes of scripture passages that make this analogy.
[ 21. June 2014, 14:45: Message edited by: Mockingbird ]
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Forţon we sealon efestan ţas Easterlican ţing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, ţaet we magon cuman to ţam Easterlican daege, ţe aa byđ, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
I neither want nor expect a new Prayer Book soon. The one we have, while it can be improved, is adequate for now.
Here are some proposals that the next revision of the American Prayer Book will include if the revision (if ever there is one) is handled by people of good sense:
I'm afraid I agree only with 3c and 3e.
And as for aligning the right margin, I don't understand the need for that. There are many things I love about the BCP 1979, and its typography is one of them. Dignified, classic yet modern, and very legible.
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
e. Order for Eucharist (so-called "Rite III"): amend the rubrics to allow a full meal to be fully integrated with the Eucharist, if carfully and reverently done. The present rubrics (p. 401) forbid this by requiring that a full meal, when one is eaten, always follow the Eucharistic rite.
I'm a tad confused about this one. Are you talking about eating a regular meal, non-consecrated food, during the actual Eucharist? Wouldn't that mean any pre-communion fasting is now out the window?
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
I neither want nor expect a new Prayer Book soon. The one we have, while it can be improved, is adequate for now.
I posted a proposal for the next revison on this board in 2005, but Oblivion doesn't go back that far. So here it is again, in an updated version. The revision of the Nicene creed to conform to its Greek text is not explicitly listed here since General Convention has already resolved that this revision will be made.
-------
Here are some proposals that the next revision of the American Prayer Book will include if the revision (if ever there is one) is handled by people of good sense:
1. Align the right hand margin, for crying out loud.
2. Calendar:
a. Scrap the following festivals:
August 6: The Transfiguration (Redundant. We have the Last Sunday after the Epiphany for this.)
July 26th: The Parents of the BVM (Silly.)
September 14th: Holy Cross Day (Redundant. We have Good Friday).
b. Delete the following festivals, or transfer them to the 3rd week of Advent:
March 25th: The Annunciation
May 31st: The Visitation
c. List the lunar epacts along with the Golden Numbers. Provide more detailed discussion of the theory of the Easter cycle.
3. Liturgy of the Hours:
a. Devise an Order of Worship for Morning, corresponding to the Order for Evening already provided.
b. Devise more authorised intercessions and thanksgivings that depart from the traditional "collect" format. (The General Thanksgiving already moves in this direction, as do a few other prayers. We might have more such).
c. Translation of the Te Deum Laudamus: return to "We praise you O God." "You are God. We Praise you" may be a slightly better rendering of the Latin, but it's silly English.
d. Venite: Provide, within the pages for Morning Prayer Rite II, a printed contemporary-language version of the old Venite, (i.e.with the verses from Psalm 96.)
e. Allow at least some Psalms to be used as canticles. More generally, provide more scriptural canticles.
4. Liturgy of the Table
a. Amend the rubrics to emphasize the integrity of the Offertory and Thanksgiving as two parts of a single whole: The one should move immediately to the other, and the dialog (sursum corda) at the beginning of the Prayer should never depart from the fixed text: No "orate fratres" or other such intrusions.
b. Eucharistic Prayers: follow the Lutherans in providing for the use of the Pauline version of the words at the cup: "This cup is the covenant in my blood". (One of the transitional Eucharistic Prayers, in the early 1970s, had this, but it got lost in the revision process.)
c. Eucharistic Prayers: Allow for omission of the words of institution altogether. Their presence is a relic of an unfortunate failure of liturgical nerve on the part of the early church: they lost the early mystical understanding of the rite and had to fall back on the legalistic rationale that our Lord had "instituted" it.
d. Eucharistic Prayers: Revise to make the element of thanksgiving clearer. "Therefore we praise you" in the run up the the Sanctus isn't bad, but we could do better, as we do in Rite II Prayer B, in which the main part of the prayer begins "We thank you". All the Eucharistic prayers should give explicit thanks at least as well as this.
e. Order for Eucharist (so-called "Rite III"): amend the rubrics to allow a full meal to be fully integrated with the Eucharist, if carfully and reverently done. The present rubrics (p. 401) forbid this by requiring that a full meal, when one is eaten, always follow the Eucharistic rite.
f. Translation of the Gloria: Replace the present contemporary-language translation with one that translates all the Latin words in their proper order.
5. Ordinations: revise the rites to make more explicit reference to the priesthood of all believers.
6. Language: the new book will never address God as "mother", or refer to him in such a way except in direct quotes of scripture passages that make this analogy.
Thanks for posting this. This is the kind of list I was hoping people would post instead of arguing so much about whether it is the right time or not to have a new Prayer Book. Can't people just work in hypotheticals? I couldn't disagree more strongly with some of your suggestions, but others are good.
-I, for one, would explicitly authorize the "Orate Fratres" and all other kinds of Romanisms as acceptable options in any future BCP, along with any 1662isms or 1928isms that people hold dear.
-I would even be ok with a Eucharistic prayer without the words of institution, but ONLY if it had ancient roots in a liturgical church like the Anaphora of Addai and Mari.
-I would allow the epiclesis to be moved before the words of institution, if not there already, in any Eucharistic prayer if so desired
-I would allow the Agnus Dei to be said or sung by the priest and congregation during the fraction and have the "Christ our passover" moved to afterwards, if a priest or congregation so desires.
And more, if I get the motivation to post them... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
You want to abolish the Annunciation? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
That seems a sure-fire way of courting controversy.
Nor am I convinced that a prayer book is the place for discussion of lunar epacts and other astronomical details...
But I agree about justify the right-hand margin.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
You want to abolish the Annunciation?
That seems a sure-fire way of courting controversy.
Every Good Bruiting Dons Flamebait.
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Forţon we sealon efestan ţas Easterlican ţing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, ţaet we magon cuman to ţam Easterlican daege, ţe aa byđ, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
I am happy enough with a pot luck after Mass. I've been in places where the Holy Sacrifice and dinner have been combined and from what I have seen it doesn't lead to greater reverence.
We need the Annunciation and Transfiguration and other old holy days. I do wish that in the future they would reclassify days according to rank and impose if possible the concept of holy days of obligation. Probably won't happen though.
I find HWHM's idea of saying celebrating the day of the guy who started a men's group in Muncie or some heretofore unknown lesbian poet with Collect, Gloria, Old Testament, Psalm, Epistle and Gospel sermon, Creed and preface overkill for a brisk Wednesday afternoon said service.
I do wish they would provide more variety in the proper prefaces.
I admire and use the way the CofE has each season in low gear and high gear modes. There is a shift in focus during the last days of Advent, the last fortnight of Lent, from Ascension onwards in Easter. In Lent, that means the hymns that have been unsung since the 1979/1982 books can be sung again. Passiontide is a great shift in focus from "me" to Jesus and shows up in Common Worship. In TEC, since Passiontide has been conflated with Holy Week, the mood has been lightened.
Also, restore Pre-Lent either with the old names or the CofE's "third Sunday before Lent" or what have you.
I know the old canard about how stupid it is to "prepare for preparation, (eye roll)." But nowadays most Episcopalians I know haven't the foggiest notion of giving up anything for Lent "Father So-and-So said not too; we must take something on instead!"
Now, Ash Wednesday takes many people by surprise and people in my experience don't do much of anything for Lent or Easter. YMMV of course.
Better translations of Te Deum and Gloria and everything really. Make Scripture snippets conform to NRSV or whatever comes next.
I'd prefer "blessed" instead of "happy" if there is a choice. I have never seen a happy person mourning, but have seen them blessed.
Agnus Dei should be required.
Orate fratres would be cool.
Prayers over the gifts
Seasonal blessings in the BCP
And Daily Offices revised more in line with the CofE and Rome, probably in separate books, or apps as they will be by then.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
e. Order for Eucharist (so-called "Rite III"): amend the rubrics to allow a full meal to be fully integrated with the Eucharist, if carfully and reverently done. The present rubrics (p. 401) forbid this by requiring that a full meal, when one is eaten, always follow the Eucharistic rite.
I'm a tad confused about this one. Are you talking about eating a regular meal, non-consecrated food, during the actual Eucharist? Wouldn't that mean any pre-communion fasting is now out the window?
I was thinking more in terms of a banquet with devotions before it, including the ritual sharing of the bread, and devotions after it, including the ritual sharing of the wine. Such a rite would only be appropriate in very small gatherings.
Fasting, as always, would be a matter of one's own conscience, though we should continue to encourage the old view that fasting is inappropriate on the Lord's day of during the Fifty Days of Easter.
[ 21. June 2014, 17:56: Message edited by: Mockingbird ]
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Forţon we sealon efestan ţas Easterlican ţing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, ţaet we magon cuman to ţam Easterlican daege, ţe aa byđ, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
I do wish that in the future they would reclassify days according to rank.
The rules of precedence that we now have are sufficient.
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
In TEC, since Passiontide has been conflated with Holy Week, the mood has been lightened.
We are well rid of a separate "Passion Sunday". Around here, I am not aware of any "light" mood during Holy Week.
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Also, restore Pre-Lent either with the old names or the CofE's "third Sunday before Lent" or what have you.
Nope. Scrapping the -gesimas was a good move. Good riddance to them.
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Orate fratres would be cool.
Orate fratres reeks of clericalism.
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Prayers over the gifts
We already have a prayer over the gifts. It is called the Eucharistic Prayer.
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
And Daily Offices revised more in line with the CofE and Rome
Nope. Stick with the classical Anglican pattern for MP and EP. My proposed "Order of Worship for Morning" would probably allow enough room for departure from the classical pattern in special circumstances, just as the Order of Worship for Evening already does for evening worship.
[ 21. June 2014, 18:09: Message edited by: Mockingbird ]
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Forţon we sealon efestan ţas Easterlican ţing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, ţaet we magon cuman to ţam Easterlican daege, ţe aa byđ, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
a. Scrap the following festivals:
August 6: The Transfiguration (Redundant. We have the Last Sunday after the Epiphany for this.)
July 26th: The Parents of the BVM (Silly.)
September 14th: Holy Cross Day (Redundant. We have Good Friday).
The reason for the celebration of multiple feast days for the same event is to acknowledge the different emphases of the event in question. Holy Cross Day focuses on the Cross as a sign of triumph while Good Friday focuses on mourning and suffering.
As for July 26th, what's wrong with remembering Our Lord's Nana?
quote:
b. Delete the following festivals, or transfer them to the 3rd week of Advent:
March 25th: The Annunciation
May 31st: The Visitation
Disagree: Annunciation commemorates the precise moment of the Incarnation when God became flesh within the womb of Our Lady. The Visitation foreshadows the relationship between Our Lord and John the Baptist and IMHO is important because it highlights a relationship between two women that is not often acknowledged or celebrated by the Church given its patriarchal heritage.
quote:
c. Eucharistic Prayers: Allow for omission of the words of institution altogether. Their presence is a relic of an unfortunate failure of liturgical nerve on the part of the early church: they lost the early mystical understanding of the rite and had to fall back on the legalistic rationale that our Lord had "instituted" it.
Strongly disagree, the Words of Institution are IMHO essential to the consecration. The recitation of Our Lord's words, preserve the memorial character of the Sacrament.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
c. Eucharistic Prayers: Allow for omission of the words of institution altogether. Their presence is a relic of an unfortunate failure of liturgical nerve on the part of the early church: they lost the early mystical understanding of the rite and had to fall back on the legalistic rationale that our Lord had "instituted" it.
Strongly disagree, the Words of Institution are IMHO essential to the consecration. The recitation of Our Lord's words, preserve the memorial character of the Sacrament.
I have to agree with Anglican Brat. This would certainly be a radical change, in my opinion. In fact, I do not think I have ever been to a church, of any denomination, that omitted the Words of Institution during the Eucharist.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
Posts: 285 | From: The Heav'n Rescued Land | Registered: Apr 2014
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
One thing I really don't want (which I've heard suggested) is replacing "The Lord be with you" with "The Lord is with you." It's in the subjunctive for a reason! Of course I'm one of the last defenders of the subjunctive mood in English.
Even though Bill Gates is always trying to correct it ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
In fact, I do not think I have ever been to a church, of any denomination, that omitted the Words of Institution during the Eucharist.
I did once, almost 40 years ago, and I was horrified. The service was at St. Paul's, Darien, Connecticut, during the heyday of
Terry Fullam, and the entire service was such a mish-mash of non-liturgical "stuff" that I couldn't bring myself to receive Communion. Theologically and liturgically, it was probably the most upsetting service I've ever attended.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
though we should continue to encourage the old view that fasting is inappropriate on the Lord's day of during the Fifty Days of Easter.
The Eucharistic fast is distinct in purpose and mood from the penitential discipline of fasting, which is traditionally precluded on Sunday and in the Great 50. There is no "old view" that is in inappropriate on the Lord's Day (that would make it unnecessary for most Communions!). It is certainly, for Anglicans and (other) Protestants, a matter of conscience. I remember being unimpressed at Prayer Book Society summer camp when the final day Mass was scheduled after brunch - and that was in a decidedly anglo-catholic leaning group.
Of course there's the old anecdote about the lady who would never observe the Eucharistic fast because "it would be a sin to pile bacon and eggs on top of Our Lord!"
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
c. Eucharistic Prayers: Allow for omission of the words of institution altogether. Their presence is a relic of an unfortunate failure of liturgical nerve on the part of the early church: they lost the early mystical understanding of the rite and had to fall back on the legalistic rationale that our Lord had "instituted" it.
Strongly disagree, the Words of Institution are IMHO essential to the consecration. The recitation of Our Lord's words, preserve the memorial character of the Sacrament.
I have to agree with Anglican Brat. This would certainly be a radical change, in my opinion. In fact, I do not think I have ever been to a church, of any denomination, that omitted the Words of Institution during the Eucharist.
I think it is fair to say that the Liturgy of Addai and Mari is a bit of an outlier on this but I cannot see any reason to suggest that the rest of the Xn world suffered from a failure of nerve and find the statement perplexing.
As far as Anglican penitential fasting goes, I had been taught during my catechism class that Friday was a day of abstinence and the BCP confirms my memory. I was always told that red-letter days and Sundays were days of exemption from the Lenten fast and I recall a child of the rectory telling me how much she looked forward to Sundays in Lent as there would be jam at breakfast. I do not know more than a half dozen others who observe a fast before Communion and it seems to have become a eccentricity in Canadian Anglicanism--LQ's account of the PB Society's post-brunch Mass does not shock me, such are our savage times.
Canadian Anglicans can always maintain the gesimas because of our canonical oddity that the BCP is the liturgical and doctrinal standard, while the universally-used BAS is simply an authorized text. I take a perverse delight in dating letters thus, or making a date for the Tuesday after Septuagesima. Good for winnowing out redheads who don't know their Barbara Pym.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bran Stark
Shipmate
# 15252
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Posted
My heart is with the earlier Prayer Book tradition, but if I had to reform the 1979 book while retaining its essence, here's what I would do:
* Remove modern-language Creed in Rite I, since the whole point of Rite I is to avoid the dreadful 1970s translations.
* Likewise, restore proper Gloria Patri with "Holy Ghost" for Rite I, instead of relegating it to an appendix.
* Restore "miserable offenders" and "there is no health in us" to Rite I Daily Office confession.
* Add Rite I services of Baptism and Matrimony.
* In interests of fairness toward Rite II, add modern-language Great Litany.
* Add Blessed Charles the Martyr to Kalendar for January 30, and St. Valentine for February 14. (I don't care how little we actually know bout him - we shouldn't let the secular romance industry monopolize a Christian martyr.)
* Remove Independence Day from Kalendar.
* Create Daily Office Lectionary that is either three-year (to align with the RCL) or one-year (to align with simplicity and tradition). Current practice with three-year lectionary for the Eucharist and two-year one for the Office is MUCH too complicated.
* Either way, said lectionary should have four whole Lessons assigned per day, to avoid current awkward situation where one has to borrow First Lesson from another year if one wants the classical 2 + 2 office.
* Integrate "Collects-Traditional", "Collects-Contemporary", "Proper Liturgies for Special Days", and the Eucharistic Lectionary into a single section; each page therein should have both Collects, and all nine readings, in a single place for easy comparisons between Rites I and II and between Years A, B, and C.
* As some other people have mentioned, align the right-hand margins. Also, return to classical liturgical typography by printing the initial letter of each prayer as a drop cap, and capitalize the remaining letters in the first word of every prayer.
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IN SOVIET ЯUSSIA, SIGNATUЯE ЯEAD YOU!
Posts: 304 | Registered: Oct 2009
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
* Create Daily Office Lectionary that is either three-year (to align with the RCL) or one-year (to align with simplicity and tradition). Current practice with three-year lectionary for the Eucharist and two-year one for the Office is MUCH too complicated.
The Consultation on Common Texts has devised a three-year daily lectionary that aligns with the RCL. The readings for Monday-Wednesday relate to the previous Sunday's readings, while those for Thursday-Saturday relate to the readings of the following Sunday.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
* Create Daily Office Lectionary that is either three-year (to align with the RCL) or one-year (to align with simplicity and tradition). Current practice with three-year lectionary for the Eucharist and two-year one for the Office is MUCH too complicated.
The Consultation on Common Texts has devised a three-year daily lectionary that aligns with the RCL. The readings for Monday-Wednesday relate to the previous Sunday's readings, while those for Thursday-Saturday relate to the readings of the following Sunday.
But that loses the reading of scripture (more or less)* continuously in the office -- at least I guess it does.
I don't see the problem with a two yearly office and daily Eucharist lectionary. The little references lectionary gives what should be read at everything and we use that and the BIble at the office. We have RCL lectionary/gospel book to read from on at the Eucharist Sundays and a daily Eucharist lecionary (or Exciting Holiness) to read from at weekday Eucharists (plus Exciting Holiness) .
Carys
*I have a habit of reading the bits of the OT which are skipped over if they aren't too long...
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
]Very few -- and they have very low attendance, mostly the elderly who grew up with 1928*. Thus my comment, that the majority of Episcopalians today are not familiar with Rite I.
As I mentioned earlier, we do rite I at 8am, and in my recent experience, about half the congregation were giving the rite II responses. So I might even claim that plenty of those who attend a rite I service aren't familiar with rite I.
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Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
I have to agree with Anglican Brat. This would certainly be a radical change, in my opinion. In fact, I do not think I have ever been to a church, of any denomination, that omitted the Words of Institution during the Eucharist.
My experience has been that the Words of Institution are said if nothing else. With one exception. I visited Mars Hill Church here in Seattle, and the elements were simply distributed with no prayer of any kind, not even the Words of Institution. I'm pretty broad-minded about liturgical customs in different traditions, but in my mind this was simply not Communion, this was just passing out bread and wine.
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Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ
https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/
Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
The Consultation on Common Texts has devised a three-year daily lectionary that aligns with the RCL. The readings for Monday-Wednesday relate to the previous Sunday's readings, while those for Thursday-Saturday relate to the readings of the following Sunday.
But that loses the reading of scripture (more or less)* continuously in the office -- at least I guess it does.
I don't see the problem with a two yearly office and daily Eucharist lectionary. The little references lectionary gives what should be read at everything and we use that and the BIble at the office. We have RCL lectionary/gospel book to read from on at the Eucharist Sundays and a daily Eucharist lecionary (or Exciting Holiness) to read from at weekday Eucharists (plus Exciting Holiness) .
Carys
*I have a habit of reading the bits of the OT which are skipped over if they aren't too long...
The experience of daily office lectionaries in the C of E indicates that there is no single right solution. Far better to have a variety of daily lectionaries to suit different needs:
- Daily office (morning and evening) for use in a church setting. This could be consecutive readings OR connected to the Sunday readings. Different churches will want different things.
- Daily office for individuals at home, wanting a single set of readings each day. These could, of course, be a subset of the church readings. But they don't have to be.
- "Pillar" readings for use in places like cathedrals, where you cannot assume that people will be coming back tomorrow, or that they will be in church on Sunday.
What is needed is NOT a "one size fits all" approach, but a real attempt to encourage the regular reading of scripture by as many people as possible, taking into account their different needs and circumstances.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
What is needed is NOT a "one size fits all" approach, but a real attempt to encourage the regular reading of scripture by as many people as possible, taking into account their different needs and circumstances.
I'll cast a vote here for a "one size fits all" approach: the current daily office (of whatever BCP) seen as the ongoing prayer of the larger church, into which individuals and local praying communities enter, whether daily or weekly or just occasionally, but which goes on day after day whether each of us attends to it or not.
This is why I wasn't a fan of what we used to do at monthly evensongs: use the lessons from another year's eucharistic lectionary because those attending might not be daily evening pray-ers and so tying the lessons to the eucharistic day might make more sense than keeping the daily office cycle going. My take: keep the daily office cycle going; those attending monthly evensong can then enter into this ongoing cycle and perhaps be encouraged to take it up more often. (This is in a parish with daily morning and evening prayer in church...another reason, IMHO, not to make an exception in lectionary use just for one office.)
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
What is needed is NOT a "one size fits all" approach, but a real attempt to encourage the regular reading of scripture by as many people as possible, taking into account their different needs and circumstances.
I'll cast a vote here for a "one size fits all" approach: the current daily office (of whatever BCP) seen as the ongoing prayer of the larger church, into which individuals and local praying communities enter, whether daily or weekly or just occasionally, but which goes on day after day whether each of us attends to it or not.
Yes, various people I follow on Twitter tweet comments on Morning Prayer from time to time. Sometimes I read these before I say the office (which is 0830 for me, some of them say it before 0700) and they suddenly make sense when I get to the same bit.
I can understand the desire for (and use of) the pillar lectionary in cathedrals, but am not keen on it. For a start it means that if I, who prays the office in my own church, drop into Evensong in the cathedral I don't get continuity with what I have been reading. I suppose it comes down to who the office is for.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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