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Source: (consider it) Thread: What is sex?
duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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Well, some think that if you don't become "one flesh" then you didn't really have sex...and that is only penetrative sex. Okay to do and have outside marriage every thing

I believe much like Lori that sex is much more than that.

And while I choose to remain celibate, I try to fight the urges in my brain to make a sex story.

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Oh go on, write some erotica, you know you want to.

If only to demonstrate it can be done in a Christian and tasteful way. [Big Grin]

You could use this thread as a reference point and write an erotic novel about what constitutes sex, and when and why it is a good idea. Then you could marry, or civilly partner, off the two lead couples at the end. [Two face]

[ 20. January 2007, 13:47: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252

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quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
But the logical result is that two people could then rightly disagree about whether or not they had 'had sex'.

Well, not necessarily. I'm not denying that there may be objective criteria for what 'sex' is. I am saying that discerning what those criteria are is tricky, and that I've yet to hear a plausible account.

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duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Oh go on, write some erotica, you know you want to.

If only to demonstrate it can be done in a Christian and tasteful way. [Big Grin]

You could use this thread as a reference point and write an erotic novel about what constitutes sex, and when and why it is a good idea. Then you could marry, or civilly partner, off the two lead couples at the end. [Two face]

Boy meets girl. Courts her. Marries her. Then goes off to have hot wanton sex. The end. [Smile]

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Pheonix

Twisted fire starter
# 2782

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quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Oh go on, write some erotica, you know you want to.

If only to demonstrate it can be done in a Christian and tasteful way. [Big Grin]

You could use this thread as a reference point and write an erotic novel about what constitutes sex, and when and why it is a good idea. Then you could marry, or civilly partner, off the two lead couples at the end. [Two face]

Boy meets girl. Courts her. Marries her. Then goes off to have hot wanton sex. The end. [Smile]
[Killing me] Its kinda lacking a bit in terms of depth of character isn't it?
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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Pheonix:
[Killing me] Its kinda lacking a bit in terms of depth of character isn't it?

Unlike all that other porn -- excuse me, erotica -- that is written?

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Pheonix

Twisted fire starter
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quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by Pheonix:
[Killing me] Its kinda lacking a bit in terms of depth of character isn't it?

Unlike all that other porn -- excuse me, erotica -- that is written?
Yeah, but there's usually a bit more detail in it than that?
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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Definitely more detail. Not much more depth of character (not that I've read any myself, no, certainly not).

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Left at the Altar

Ship's Siren
# 5077

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It lacks some of the essential words for erotica.


Boy meets girl. He has pulsing Love Engine, never used, good condition. She has pert breasts, never used, good condition. He courts her with Love Engine straining to be released, but fights temptation to take it for a run by praying hard. She resists temptation to run her hands over its smooth duco by praying hard. They kiss. She keeps her legs crossed. He marries her. Then they go off to have hot wanton sex for the purposes of procreation, with the lights off. The end.

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duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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Yes, I think you've nailed it.

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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612

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quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
She resists temptation to run her hands over its smooth duco by praying hard.

Smooth duco? Where can I get that effect from?
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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
She resists temptation to run her hands over its smooth duco by praying hard.

Smooth duco? Where can I get that effect from?
Dude, open your email.

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duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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I have to say you all turn everything I write into dirty filthy novels.

But this one did make my point very well. And LATA naughty, naughty, naughty!

I will say though that YEAH, I really do think like that. And I will stay on my island and wait until my ship sails by with the dude who actually wants a commitment with me before kissing. That would be so totally cool, to feel that secure. But I guess that is a girl thang.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Oh go on, write some erotica, you know you want to.

If only to demonstrate it can be done in a Christian and tasteful way. [Big Grin]

You could use this thread as a reference point and write an erotic novel about what constitutes sex, and when and why it is a good idea. Then you could marry, or civilly partner, off the two lead couples at the end. [Two face]

Boy meets girl. Courts her. Marries her. Then goes off to have hot wanton sex. The end. [Smile]
You missed out a stage.

Can I interject between "Marries her" and "Then goes off.."

"Spends a hilarious if humiliating week trying to work out which of her dohickeys are which, finally gets his south pole geography sorted out, then spends another week finding out that you can't just go diving in, because no-one's explained about foreplay".

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Pants

Emergency underwear
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Ok, so I've just read the 4 pages of the thread, and didn't see the answer.

What is sex?
Is 'virtual' (ie online chat) sex actually sex?
Is phone sex actually sex?
Does that mean masterbation is actually sex?

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Gill H

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# 68

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Karl - no, because this is fiction. The hero and heroine of the story will have read good, sensible and interesting books by Christian authors which explain the whole thing realistically, and do not make it sound like an exam or mess up the hero and heroine's minds before they start.

(Not entirely fictional - such a book does exist, but sadly it's out of print. Unlike the bad ones, which are legion.)

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Shakespeare wrote two plays on the subject, you know.

Love's Labours Lost and The Comedy of Errors

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Pânts:
1.What is sex?
2.Is 'virtual' (ie online chat) sex actually sex?
3.Is phone sex actually sex?
4.Does that mean masterbation is actually sex?

1. I can't define it but I know it when I see it.
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes

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HenryT

Canadian Anglican
# 3722

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quote:
Originally posted by Pânts:

Does that mean masterbation is actually sex?

"masterbation" is a spelling error for "masturbation". Which, IMO, is sex.

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HenryT

Canadian Anglican
# 3722

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quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
...

And I'm a pedant, which is a worse sin that either masturbation or misspelling.

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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788

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Jack the Lass

Ship's airhead
# 3415

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quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
...

And I'm a pedant, which is a worse sin that either masturbation or misspelling.
Oh, I don't know - some of us find pedants ever so sexy [Big Grin]

[Where did my point go?]

[ 06. February 2007, 21:22: Message edited by: Jack the Lass ]

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Zoey

Broken idealist
# 11152

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Just a minute .... you guys are saying that masturbation by a person who is alone is actually sex?!?!?!?!?!?! [Eek!]

I'm female, but I've been lead to believe (and I've not heard any counter-evidence) that masturbation is pretty much a biological requirement for post-pubescent males (if sex with a partner is not available) - sperm and semen get produced inside blokes' testes no matter what and all that sperm and semen needs to get out one way or another.

So if 99.9% of the male population start having sex by masturbation when they hit puberty, why is it a big deal whether or not they get another person involved? (ie - can't they argue that if they're having sex already (by masturbating), they might as well have sex with another person even if they're not in a committed relationship with that person.)


Hmmm ... I think the main upshot of this post is that I don't think masturbation is the same thing as sex. I think that sex needs to involve more than one person.

But I'm interested in thoughts on the above points from those who think that masturbation is sex. Do you believe that masturbation is always wrong? Or that it is sometimes wrong and sometimes okay? - in which case, which circumstances make it okay? Or that it is always okay?

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by mountainsnowtiger:
Just a minute .... you guys are saying that masturbation by a person who is alone is actually sex?!?!?!?!?!?! [Eek!]

What other category could it possibly fall under? Exercise?

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Shakespeare wrote two plays on the subject, you know.

Love's Labours Lost and The Comedy of Errors

Three, at least. You forgot Much Ado About Nothing --in which the "nothing" is a well-known pseudonym for, um, something shaped roughly like a zero (nothing, geddit?).

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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by mountainsnowtiger:
Just a minute .... you guys are saying that masturbation by a person who is alone is actually sex?!?!?!?!?!?! [Eek!]

What other category could it possibly fall under? Exercise?
Well, it does relieve stress! OliviaG

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Zoey

Broken idealist
# 11152

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I wouldn't say it falls under any category. I would say 'masturbation' in itself is an activity. And that it's distinct from 'sex' which I think needs to involve more than one person.

My question is:-
Are you saying that all the unmarried single blokes who masturbate and attend churches which teach that one shouldn't have sex outside of marriage, are actually going against that teaching by masturbating? (I ask this question whether or not you yourself think that sex outside marriage is wrong - although that would also be an interesting thing to know in the context of the discussion.)

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by mountainsnowtiger:
I wouldn't say it falls under any category. I would say 'masturbation' in itself is an activity. And that it's distinct from 'sex' which I think needs to involve more than one person.

My question is:-
Are you saying that all the unmarried single blokes who masturbate and attend churches which teach that one shouldn't have sex outside of marriage, are actually going against that teaching by masturbating? (I ask this question whether or not you yourself think that sex outside marriage is wrong - although that would also be an interesting thing to know in the context of the discussion.)

That rather depends on their definition of "Sex", not mine.

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Zoey

Broken idealist
# 11152

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I think masturbation is a sexual activity, but it is not 'sex' per se.

Okay. I'm not actually asking you to answer these questions, because they are far too personal to be answered on a public web-forum, but the following questions might illustrate where I am having difficulty with the logic that masturbation = sex.

1) Do you believe that sex should only take place inside a committed relationship?
2) Have you ever masturbated while not in a committed relationship?
3) If yes to both of the above, was your masturbation wrong? If not, why not?

I get the impression that quite a few Christian men would answer yes to questions 1 and 2, but would not consider their masturbation to have been wrong because it did not involve other people/promiscuity etc. At which point, the answer to question 3 - 'why wasn't the masturbation wrong' - is 'because it was a special category of sex not involving another person'. At which point, we're messing about with semantics and if masturbation is such a distinct category of sex why can't it just be classed as a sexual activity which is not equivalent to 'sex'.

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Pants

Emergency underwear
# 999

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quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by Pânts:
1.What is sex?
2.Is 'virtual' (ie online chat) sex actually sex?
3.Is phone sex actually sex?
4.Does that mean masterbation is actually sex?

1. I can't define it but I know it when I see it.
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes

Mountainsnowtiger, if as MT says, 2 and 3 are sex, then 4 must be too as 2 and 3 are a form of 4. Although they are different as there is 'someone' else involved with 2 and 3.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
...

And I'm a pedant, which is a worse sin that either masturbation or misspelling.
Or confusing "than" and "that".

I hereby formally state KLB's Law:

"Any Internet posting criticising another's spelling, grammar or punctuation will itself contain at least one solecism".

[ 07. February 2007, 08:38: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252

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quote:
Originally posted by Pânts:
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by Pânts:
1.What is sex?
2.Is 'virtual' (ie online chat) sex actually sex?
3.Is phone sex actually sex?
4.Does that mean masterbation is actually sex?

1. I can't define it but I know it when I see it.
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes

Mountainsnowtiger, if as MT says, 2 and 3 are sex, then 4 must be too as 2 and 3 are a form of 4. Although they are different as there is 'someone' else involved with 2 and 3.
Are the following human beings?

2. George W. Bush
3. Billie Piper
4. All animals

Now, according to your reasoning above; we must conclude that all animals are human beings, since 2. and 3. are forms of 4. Spot the problem?

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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Is reading War and Peace equivalent to doing military service? Is watching a cop show on TV murder? Is Star Trek space travel?

Fantasy is not the thing itself.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Pants

Emergency underwear
# 999

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Ken, I take it you're saying M isn't sex? And if so, what about 2 and 3?

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leo
Shipmate
# 1458

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Confessors' manuals have defined masturbation as a sinful misuse of sex.

I wish they hadn't because it would have made my teenage years more enjoyable.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Is reading War and Peace equivalent to doing military service? Is watching a cop show on TV murder? Is Star Trek space travel?

Fantasy is not the thing itself.

Thus, imagining yourself having an orgasm, or reading about somebody else having an orgasm, is not sex. That's as far as this metaphor will take you. It certainly says absolutely nothing about masturbation.

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Zoey

Broken idealist
# 11152

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Would any of the male contributors to this thread who think that masturbation is sex and/or that masturbation is a sin care to comment on whether they think it's accurate to say that 90% plus of men who don't regularly have sex with a partner, do masturbate relatively regularly?

As already stated, this is the impression I've previously gained - but I'm young and female (I might even try keeping up my claim to be young and innocent [Biased] ) and I don't think masturbation is sex.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Fantasy is not the thing itself.

Thus, imagining yourself having an orgasm, or reading about somebody else having an orgasm, is not sex. That's as far as this metaphor will take you. It certainly says absolutely nothing about masturbation.

Nonsense. Sex is the sharing of genetic material. Two-becoming one. Orgasms might be a common accompaniment to that but they aren't the same thing.

[Edited to fix UBB]

[ 08. February 2007, 16:52: Message edited by: TonyK ]

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by mountainsnowtiger:
it's accurate to say that 90% plus of men who don't regularly have sex with a partner, do masturbate relatively regularly?

I would think that is an unbelieveably low estimate. 99% is more likely. 99.9%. Effectively everybody. When young anyway. Perhaps if fades away with age.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Pânts:
And if so, what about 2 and 3?

No, obviously not. Maybe count as fantasy or flirting or whatever. Would still probably be a betrayal when done by a married person with someone they are not married to. There are forms of unfaithfulness that are not sex.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zoey

Broken idealist
# 11152

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Well, it probably belongs on a separate thread, but if any churches do still think masturbation is a sin in and of itself - it seems pretty unfair for something to be a sin if it's virtually a biological necessity for young (but post-pubescent) men (which, again, I've previously stated is the impression I've gained, while not actually being male myself).

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Posts: 3095 | From: the penultimate stop? | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290

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Here's the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the subject, mountainsnowtiger:

quote:
2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action." "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

Without wishing to get into a long (and ultimately fruitless) debate on whether the Church is Right, Wrong or Bonkers in this pronouncement, I would just point out that it does take “affective immaturity” into account as a major factor in the “fairness” or otherwise of considering this a “sin”. (As someone pointed out to me, in order for it to constitute Mortal Sin, one would have to be masturbating in order to defy God, which, pace Aleister Crowley, is really a rather negligible consideration. [Big Grin]

Not male myself, either, but I had rather picked up that, even if young men do not masturbate, excess sperm production finds natural egress via involuntary nocturnal emission, aka "wet dream".

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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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In some men, apparently. But "men who never masturbate" is too small a sample to really research the question.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290

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Well quite, Karl. Even if young men wank themselves stupid 10 times a day, they often also have wet dreams, such is the power of the thing at that age. All I was saying is that, even if their hands were tied behind their backs, there would still be emission.

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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain

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Zoey

Broken idealist
# 11152

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Exactly to all of the last 3 posts. And I have heard it on good authority (i.e. from somebody male) that wet dreams can be a much more disturbing example of human sexuality than straight-forward masturbation (i.e. when wanking a bloke will probably imagine having sex, but the 'dream' part of wet dreams can involve all sorts of weird and wonderful and potentially disturbing variations on the general theme of sex).

So it would seem to me rather unfair to decide that wanking is a sin and to therefore force all celibate men to endure unpleasant and potentially disturbing wet dreams (which might well also be considered sinful, or at least unhealthy, by the people who think masturbation is a sin - at which point what is the poor unmarried bloke meant to do about the semen which biologically needs to depart his body?).

But then, I doubt that this is the only area where my own thinking about sexual activities differs from that of the Catholic Church. (There are plenty of people on this planet already, thanks - if I'm ever lucky enough to get the sex as true love phenomenon, then I'll do without the procreation bit of it - but then that's probably a seperate thread again ....)

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Pay no mind, I'm doing fine, I'm breathing on my own.

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leo
Shipmate
# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Fantasy is not the thing itself.

Thus, imagining yourself having an orgasm, or reading about somebody else having an orgasm, is not sex. That's as far as this metaphor will take you. It certainly says absolutely nothing about masturbation.

Nonsense. Sex is the sharing of genetic material. Two-becoming one. Orgasms might be a common accompaniment to that but they aren't the same thing.

[Edited to fix UBB]

So lesbians don't have sex, then?

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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So sex with a condom isn't sex then?

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Scooby-Doo
Shipmate
# 9822

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quote:
Originally posted by mountainsnowtiger:
Would any of the male contributors to this thread who think that masturbation is sex and/or that masturbation is a sin care to comment on whether they think it's accurate to say that 90% plus of men who don't regularly have sex with a partner, do masturbate relatively regularly?

As already stated, this is the impression I've previously gained - but I'm young and female (I might even try keeping up my claim to be young and innocent [Biased] ) and I don't think masturbation is sex.

I think 90% of men do at some time, whether in a relationship or not. The other 10% are liars!

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John Holding

Coffee and Cognac
# 158

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Fantasy is not the thing itself.

Thus, imagining yourself having an orgasm, or reading about somebody else having an orgasm, is not sex. That's as far as this metaphor will take you. It certainly says absolutely nothing about masturbation.

Nonsense. Sex is the sharing of genetic material. Two-becoming one. Orgasms might be a common accompaniment to that but they aren't the same thing.

[Edited to fix UBB]

So same-sex ....isn't sex at all!

John

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Timothy the Obscure

Mostly Friendly
# 292

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I've seen some research (it was quite a few years ago and I can't recall where) that found that men actually masturbate more when they're in relationships than when they aren't.

I 'm not sure what that proves, exactly...

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
Well quite, Karl. Even if young men wank themselves stupid 10 times a day, they often also have wet dreams, such is the power of the thing at that age. All I was saying is that, even if their hands were tied behind their backs, there would still be emission.

Not in all. Or even most. I suspect that "wet dreams" are as often an explanation for stained sheets as they are real phenomena ifyouseewhatImean.

And most men manage quite well after vasectomies - where do their sperm go?

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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