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Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
A very good report - St. Magnus London Bridge is a church I know well, but I neglect to make a habit of going there.

From the time of Fr. Henry Joy Fynes-Clinton (I name from memory) who was Rector there for many a long year until 1959, the Church has a reputation for being Anglo-Papalist. The present Rector, Fr. Philip Warner, seems to be making the most of his resources in his plans for his church. He seems to value the spirituality of old-fashioned ceremonial and is liable to have the three sacred ministers with the sub-deacon wearing the humeral veil as he holds the paten at High Mass. But I have not been to the church often enough to know how varied he makes his ceremonial.

Fr. Philip Warner took the bold step some years ago of having a ringing peal of 12-bells installed and of course, these things cost money.
The previous ring of 10-bells was destroyed by enemy action in 1940 during WW2 and it has taken 60 years, or so, to have bells reinsted in the tower. I understand that Sunday ringing takes place following the Solemn Mass, to fit in with the band of ringers ringing at another church in the neighbourhood earlier in the morning. As a bellringer myself, I have yet to 'grab' that tower to experience ringing the bells.

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Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
A very good report - St. Magnus London Bridge is a church I know well, but I neglect to make a habit of going there.

From the time of Fr. Henry Joy Fynes-Clinton (I name from memory) who was Rector there for many a long year until 1959, the Church has a reputation for being Anglo-Papalist. The present Rector, Fr. Philip Warner, seems to be making the most of his resources in his plans for his church. He seems to value the spirituality of old-fashioned ceremonial and is liable to have the three sacred ministers with the sub-deacon wearing the humeral veil as he holds the paten at High Mass. But I have not been to the church often enough to know how varied he makes his ceremonial.

Fr. Philip Warner took the bold step some years ago of having a ringing peal of 12-bells installed and of course, these things cost money.
The previous ring of 10-bells was destroyed by enemy action in 1940 during WW2 and it has taken 60 years, or so, to have bells reinsted in the tower. I understand that Sunday ringing takes place following the Solemn Mass, to fit in with the band of ringers ringing at another church in the neighbourhood earlier in the morning. As a bellringer myself, I have yet to 'grab' that tower to experience ringing the bells.

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Right, here goes my second attempt to reply

Many years ago, there was an anecdote about Father Fynes-Clinton showing a visitor around the church. Arriving at the monument to Myles Coverdale, Father Fynes-Clinton announced to the visitor "We've just had a service in the language out of which he translated the Bible". I hope the account is true.

Another story concerns Father F-C's interest in legal processes and minutiae. During the mid 1920s, he was taken through the ecclesiastical courts by the Protestant Truth Society and was forced to remove many of the ornaments from the church. Undeterred, Father Fynes went to a hardware store and a grocer's shop and bought a number of items.

As a result, when members of the Protestant Truth Society came to the church to ensure that the court's orders had been carried out, they were dismayed to see that the holy water stoups had been removed but had been replaced by jam jars filled with holy water. The magnificent baroque altar candlesticks had gone but, in their place, stood six candlesticks fashioned from dowelling of the kind normally used for broom handles.

The protestants were (understandably) dismayed but they cheered up when Father Fynes told them they could remove the offending items themselves as long as they signed a document attesting to the fact. Once the transaction was completed, Father Fynes then replaced the original items and the whole process had to begin again.

At this point, the irresistible force of the Protestant Truth Society realised it had been overcome by the immovable object that was Father Fynes-Clinton and took its fight elsewhere.

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Originally posted by Jel:
My one visit many moons ago (the church being dedicated to the founder of my family) caught Father Warner engaged in loving contemplation of a drawer full of chasubles. I did not return.

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I went to a lunch-time Ascension Day Sung Mass at St. Magnus (back in the late 70s/early 80s, IIRC), and remember being astounded at the quality of the music - a Mass setting by young Mr. Mozart, no less, sung by a choir of 4 voices!

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It's all very puzzling and other worldly compared to us poor old non conformists.

We'd struggle with the morality of having 6 chasubles when the time and money could be put to better use elsewhere.

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It's all very puzzling and other worldly compared to us poor old non conformists.

We'd struggle with the morality of having 6 chasubles when the time and money could be put to better use elsewhere.

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Originally posted by Vade Mecum:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It's all very puzzling and other worldly compared to us poor old non conformists.

We'd struggle with the morality of having 6 chasubles when the time and money could be put to better use elsewhere.

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Could it? What better use of money (a fairly paltry sum, even for the lush contents of the vestry at S. MM) is there than the salvation of souls, the revelation of Christ in His Glory, and the feeding of the lost with the Body of Our Lord? Cheap at twice the price, I should have thought.

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Originally posted by Gildas:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It's all very puzzling and other worldly compared to us poor old non conformists.

We'd struggle with the morality of having 6 chasubles when the time and money could be put to better use elsewhere.

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There is a good scriptural Apostolic precedent for saying that something expensive, given in honour of Our Lord, could be sold and the money given to the poor. Now what was the chaps name...

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Originally posted by venbede:
Do you wear the same clothes every Sunday, Mark?

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Exclamation Mark - to respond to your comments about charitable giving: CofE charitable giving is often off the books. Here the thousands collected for Christian Aid goes straight to Christian Aid without being added into the church accounts. The collection at the Remembrance Service goes straight into collection tins for the Royal British Legion, the collection for Water Aid goes directly to them. It's a huge can of worms that doesn't fairly reflect the giving. There are additional receptacles of squirming objects around charities giving to charities and what the Charity Commission says about that.

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

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Originally posted by Vade Mecum:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It's all very puzzling and other worldly compared to us poor old non conformists.

We'd struggle with the morality of having 6 chasubles when the time and money could be put to better use elsewhere.

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Could it? What better use of money (a fairly paltry sum, even for the lush contents of the vestry at S. MM) is there than the salvation of souls, the revelation of Christ in His Glory, and the feeding of the lost with the Body of Our Lord? Cheap at twice the price, I should have thought.

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Quite: But, one of that needs special gear

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Count this A-C (not that I count as one to everyone here) in on the bafflement. Bling is not a requirement for those things. On the contrary - the salvation of souls happens at a blood-soaked execution at the local rubbish dump. Christ in His Glory is revealed in a dirty stable full of animals and their attendant messes, and on a dusty road to a tired, crying woman. The feeding of the lost with the Body of Our Lord needs only a cup, and a dish, and the promise to feed on Him in our hearts by faith with thanksgiving. Methinks some A-C establishments need a bit more of the dust and dirt of the Incarnation.

EM, I'm sure you're aware, but Anglican monasticism is just as A-C as tat palaces. Simplicity is not just for Nonconformists

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
[QUOTE]EM, I'm sure you're aware, but Anglican monasticism is just as A-C as tat palaces. Simplicity is not just for Nonconformists

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
<tangent continued>Well, it's complicated by the Christian Aid collection here being a joint churches initiative so it's carried out under that umbrella. The main CofE church collects well over half the final take, but is only one of five or six denominations collecting (it's why I used that one as an example).

The last time I was on the PCC we were discussing how to reflect charitable giving correctly so I'm not sure how some of the other collections are now put through.

In addition we had to insist that retirement collections for charities weren't taken at church funerals because the funeral directors blithely organised them for a number of charities which weren't in line with the charitable aims of the church. And charities cannot donate to other charities if those charitable aims are not in alignment. In those cases we asked that the funeral directors arranged the collection somewhere else. </tangent>

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Originally posted by venbede:
Good on you, Jade.

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Originally posted by Angloid:
There is not only the example of our Lord and the ointment, there is the principle of the state supporting art galleries. Only a thoroughgoing philistine (or a wealthy Tory, which IMHO often amounts to the same thing) would object to that.

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

I can't quite see how you send the money off to CA given you don't send cash so it must be banked somewhere. It would then show up on a bank statement which would have to be explained if asked by HMRC and CC. If it's there best to record it anyway.

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

I can't quite see how you send the money off to CA given you don't send cash so it must be banked somewhere. It would then show up on a bank statement which would have to be explained if asked by HMRC and CC. If it's there best to record it anyway.

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Money raised for CA week in all the local churches here is counted and verified in each church and then paid directly (in cash) into a special "local area" CA account. The CA treasurer then sends a sheet to all the churches showing all the payments made. We append a note in our annual financial report, for the benefit of the Charity Commission; I presume other churches do the same. So it never goes through the individual churches' books, but there is a strict checking procedure.

Money we raise for CA at other times (and for other charities) does go through our church books in the way you describe, and then sent off by us to CA but not via the "local area" account.

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

In terms of church tat - what is likely to draw people to the gospel? is it the "right" way of doing things inside a building with all the supporting cast or is it doing things in the open outside the same building amongst ordinary people?

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

The church accounts for 2013 show a total income of £139K and charitable giving of £1.25K (excluding Diocescan Precept). For 2012 income was £125k and giving £2000 with a catering and entertainment bill of £2887. For 2011 charitable giving was £550

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Originally posted by *Leon*:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

The church accounts for 2013 show a total income of £139K and charitable giving of £1.25K (excluding Diocescan Precept). For 2012 income was £125k and giving £2000 with a catering and entertainment bill of £2887. For 2011 charitable giving was £550

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To continue this tangent, I spent about 10 seconds googling but couldn't find the accounts. I'd be interested to know where the income comes from.

The charitable giving in those accounts is on the low side for an average anglican church (By this I mean the charitable giving that I'd expect to show up in the accounts, which, as noted, tends to exclude major items like Christian Aid). However, I suspect this church isn't average, and may have quite unusual sources of income. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of its money comes from charities (including livery companies). Presumably a livery company would want to make its own decisions about charitable giving to help the poor, so would expect any money given to a church to be spent on worship, music and so on.

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

In terms of church tat - what is likely to draw people to the gospel? is it the "right" way of doing things inside a building with all the supporting cast or is it doing things in the open outside the same building amongst ordinary people?

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
[QUOTE]EM, I'm sure you're aware, but Anglican monasticism is just as A-C as tat palaces. Simplicity is not just for Nonconformists

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No - I'd never make that claim. I find great reverence and space in a simple A-C offering and expression of faith. I can even reconcile the view of the real presence with my non conformist views of the same

IME I've benefitted greatly from retreats etc in the kind of environment you mention. Having seen it in action, I'm surprised like you seem to be too at the explanations so often given for low charitable giving but high expenditure on stuff and maintenance.

Like you .... I see an incarnate God dying on a rubbish heap amongst broken humanity: that's my glimpse of heaven - one who identifies with people like me and who is with people like me

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Originally posted by Angloid:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

In terms of church tat - what is likely to draw people to the gospel? is it the "right" way of doing things inside a building with all the supporting cast or is it doing things in the open outside the same building amongst ordinary people?

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Speaking for myself, I was drawn to the Gospel by the experience of worshipping in a MOTR village church at early communion, celebrated with formality, dignity but minimal 'tat' (simple eucharistic vestments and one server). That experience of God's presence has stayed with me for over 50 years (most of them in ordained ministry). I recognise that most people don't have that experience, or if they did would react differently, and that evangelism needs to take many different forms. But traditional liturgical worship still attracts many.

Having said that, the point of worship, and 'tat', is to honour and worship God. And if we do this without self-consciously looking over our shoulders at who if any is being attracted to it, then it is more, not less, likely to have evangelistic power.

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Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
I must speak in my friend Fr Philip's defence.

It is quite possible that there are 6 chasubles (with matching dalmatics and tunicles) for some seasonal colours (probably rose). However, one of his congregation is particularly talented at repairing and restoring tat that has become, well, tatty and been discarded from elsewhere. I strongly suspect that much of the tat cupboard is of a certain age.

He also has a considerable mission to part of the the flock who are ostracised at the other end of Grace Church Street.If that is aided by tat, so be it.

3F (formally of the PCC of Ct Clement and St Lawrence, East Cheap)

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Case in point: Monday's service at Westminster Abbey was wonderful. But it's about as close to everyday life in St Puddles as the moon. It either raises unrealistic expectations of what church might be like

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Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
He will have six of everything if only one will do!

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Originally posted by leo:

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Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
He will have six of everything if only one will do!

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You often need 6 chasubles for concelebrations.

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Originally posted by leo:

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Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
He will have six of everything if only one will do!

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You often need 6 chasubles for concelebrations.

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