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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sacraments and magic
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
I can't see Orthodoxy having to deal with something equivalent to the Reformation. Having to deal with modernity is something completely different. It's something we all have to do. However, I can't see Orthodoxy being overcome by the spirit of modernism, as happened in the West during the early to mid twentieh century. I agree with the RC Trads on one thing, that the key is the liturgy. It's just ironic that those popes whom they venerate as pillars of orthodoxy layed the path of liturgical destruction for the RC. Both Pius X breviary reform and Pius XII holy week reform set the precedent for what was to come in Vatican II.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
That's interesting ... and I've met a scary Society of Pope Pius X chap who was interested in Orthodoxy precisely because it hadn't messed about with its Liturgy ...
I s'pose in a gentle, Anglican way ... with some Orthodox influences ... I'd be inclined to agree that Liturgy does help to preserve, conserve and indeed convey and pass on the Gospel.
However, my default position on Vatican II has generally been that it was a 'good thing' ... but that's very much an outsider's view from within Protestant settings.
However, having seen some of the developments in RC liturgy both online and in real life, part of me sides with those who want to turn the clock back ...
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
However, my default position on Vatican II has generally been that it was a 'good thing' ... but that's very much an outsider's view from within Protestant settings.
Vatican II itself was not a bad thing. It was hijacked by elements within the Catholic church who wanted to remake the church in their own image, and that was a bad thing.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I can't see Orthodoxy having to deal with something equivalent to the Reformation.
Because of people like you and mousethief, basically. As the Orthodox expand in the West, they are basically herding sheep with the "Western virus" their way. Eventually, their immune system will not be able to cope with this influx somewhere, sometime, and the symptoms will start manifesting themselves... Just how bad the fever is going to be is anybody's guess. Anyway, Orthodoxy is importing the (Counter-)Reformation via its Western missions.
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Having to deal with modernity is something completely different. It's something we all have to do. However, I can't see Orthodoxy being overcome by the spirit of modernism, as happened in the West during the early to mid twentieh century.
Whereas I see a lot more potential for Orthodoxy to be overcome, since the hierarchy is so much weaker and more dependent on the laity. Just imagine for a minute that the population of Greece was culturally thoroughly secular, hedonist, and humanist, like say in England, France or Germany. Just what would remain of Orthodoxy as we know it? The question is simply whether, and for how long, Orthodox homelands can resist the cultural assimilation to the West. I'm skeptical that they can resist for much longer. I do not think that the Orthodox are ready to deal with the onslaught of Western modernity. I think the RCC might just make it, but I wouldn't put my money on it. But if the RCC dies in the North and West, it will still have a strong presence in the East and South. I don't think that Orthodoxy has this kind of safety buffer. If it goes belly up in its current homelands, and if it corrupts in its Western branches (see above), then that's basically it.
Greece will be the test case. For various reasons, including in particular the Ottomans / Turks, they represent just about the closest identification of church and state one can imagine in modern Europe. If this identification starts to show cracks, as may already have happened in the case of Greek ID cards, then you know that time is up. (I guess though that the economic crisis will slow the process - affluence typically aids secularisation...)
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I agree with the RC Trads on one thing, that the key is the liturgy. It's just ironic that those popes whom they venerate as pillars of orthodoxy layed the path of liturgical destruction for the RC. Both Pius X breviary reform and Pius XII holy week reform set the precedent for what was to come in Vatican II.
Maybe. As I've said, one of the joys of being born in this era is that I get to witness a kind of social experiment on this.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
However, my default position on Vatican II has generally been that it was a 'good thing' ... but that's very much an outsider's view from within Protestant settings.
Vatican II itself was not a bad thing. It was hijacked by elements within the Catholic church who wanted to remake the church in their own image, and that was a bad thing.
Was it the only time some people tried to remake the church in their own image?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Orthodox friends from Romania tell me that the tide of secularism is rising there.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Whereas I see a lot more potential for Orthodoxy to be overcome, since the hierarchy is so much weaker and more dependent on the laity.
On the contrary. That there is no Orthodox pope who claims jurisdiction over the whole Church is its strength, not being subject to the whims of one ultramontane man. Should one fall out of line the rest can say, you're no longer in communion with us.
[ 22. January 2015, 21:02: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I would have thought Russia even after the end of Communism remains far more fundamentally materialist and profoundly secular than anywhere in Western Europe.
[ 22. January 2015, 21:09: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
However, my default position on Vatican II has generally been that it was a 'good thing' ... but that's very much an outsider's view from within Protestant settings.
Vatican II itself was not a bad thing. It was hijacked by elements within the Catholic church who wanted to remake the church in their own image, and that was a bad thing.
Was it the only time some people tried to remake the church in their own image?
Why does that matter?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
However, my default position on Vatican II has generally been that it was a 'good thing' ... but that's very much an outsider's view from within Protestant settings.
Vatican II itself was not a bad thing. It was hijacked by elements within the Catholic church who wanted to remake the church in their own image, and that was a bad thing.
Was it the only time some people tried to remake the church in their own image?
Why does that matter?
Why are you asking No ... ?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Philip Charles
Ship's cutler
# 618
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Posted
I am looking at a piece of plastic film which has a nice picture of the Queen of New Zealand printed on it. It also has the wording "This is legal tender for twenty dollars" and is signed by Alan Bollard. This is a physical description of this object, I had to force myself to look at it this way because when I handle one of these notes the symbolic value overwhelms me and I think "Ah, twenty dollars". This kind of thing I call a effective symbol. Looking at the bank note as an effective symbol. It is effective within a community, New Zealand. It is authorised by a legitimate authority, Alan Bollard Governor of the Reserve bank.
A sacrament, here I am taking the Eucharist as an example, is also an effective symbol. Authorised by Jesus and to those who are part of his community the symbolic Body and Blood overwhelms the physical bread and wine.
Neither the plastic film of the bank note nor the bread and wine have changed, but they have been over whelmed by their symbolic value. They have effectively (not physically) changed. So there is no relationship between sacraments and magic.
Of course God is everywhere, but when someone is going through a bad dry period they cannot see, feel or experience God around them. When they receive communion they may not feel holy or any better, but they know objectively they have been in touch with God. Or someone who has lapsed for twenty years who quietly makes their communion in a strange church.
Some times the 39 Articles can be helpful.
quote:
XXV. Of the Sacraments.
SACRAMENTS ordained of Christ be not only badges or tokens of Christian men's profession, but rather they be certain sure witnesses and effectual signs of grace and God's good will towards us, by the which He doth work invisibly in us, and doth not only quicken, but also strengthen and confirm, our faith in Him.
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There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
Posts: 89 | From: Dunedin, NZ | Registered: Jun 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I absolutely love your parallel between the money and the Sacraments. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I'm preaching in a few weeks, and the lectionary readings are leading me to talk about symbolism (the particular symbols being the rainbow of the Noahic Covenant and baptism). Do you mind if I borrow your money analogy for the childrens address?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Unconvincing if "sacrament" means not just "Jesus, bread, wine" but a whole massive overlay of rigidly narrow list of humans allowed to officiate, specific prayers, hand motions, detailed theology of exactly what happens or doesn't and why.
I was once healed through a Jesus and bread and wine ceremony - at home alone. Many have told me that was not a valid ceremony. Why not? Jesus and bread and wine and an obvious spiritual-caused effect! "Doesn't match our theology which says can't be done by you and can't be done alone and you didn't use all the right prayers." Why should I care about a theology developed to support the political and "spiritual" dominance of the bloody victors of theological disagreements?
Church history is a real good reason to repent of just about everything that history endorsed.
"What works is what we tell you works, you encounter God if we say so, you are utterly dependent on us to connect in important ways with God." No. What a parody of Jesus' revelation of God to us all.
Institutional church may be "nice to have" (I'm increasingly doubting even that), it's definitely not a spiritual essential in any way, especially when it comes to recognizing what are all the real functioning sacraments!
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Unconvincing if "sacrament" means not just "Jesus, bread, wine" but a whole massive overlay of rigidly narrow list of humans allowed to officiate, specific prayers, hand motions, detailed theology of exactly what happens or doesn't and why.
Yes, well, not all of us go down that line, you know.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I was once healed through a Jesus and bread and wine ceremony - at home alone. Many have told me that was not a valid ceremony. Why not? Jesus and bread and wine and an obvious spiritual-caused effect! "Doesn't match our theology which says can't be done by you and can't be done alone and you didn't use all the right prayers." Why should I care about a theology developed to support the political and "spiritual" dominance of the bloody victors of theological disagreements?
God is not limited to acting through the sacraments. No "sacramentalist" I know would deny the possibility that you were healed by God through a "bread and wine" ceremony. But if this ceremony was now repeated by someone else somewhere else for someone else, would there be a guarantee that God will bring about the same kind of effect? I doubt that you would want to claim that. The point about the sacraments is however exactly that God has promised to act in response to these ceremonies in a specific way, always, as long as they are performed correctly enough. It may well be that what God has promised in the sacraments is not what you want. For example, no sacrament guarantees physical healing. It may well be that God gives you what you want in other circumstances and through other ways. There simply is no claim here that the sacraments are a kind of magic wand that will grant you your religious or worldly wishes. The claim is merely that here are occasions of religious significance where we reliably know what God is going to do. The importance of the sacraments is primarily in this reliability, and in what that reliability says about the relationship God wants to have with us, not in claiming some kind of "improved wish fulfilment", or the like.
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Church history is a real good reason to repent of just about everything that history endorsed.
People are people, and the fall was the fall. If you run any sort of global institution for two millennia, a lot of shit will happen. How often has the government of your country done something you are not proud of, in the last fifty years? The Church has been around forty times longer, and has spread across the globe. If the Church was free of stain across these scales, then we would have an iron-clad proof of the existence of God.
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
"What works is what we tell you works, you encounter God if we say so, you are utterly dependent on us to connect in important ways with God." No. What a parody of Jesus' revelation of God to us all.
That's more a parody of yours about what sacramental churches are saying.
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Institutional church may be "nice to have" (I'm increasingly doubting even that), it's definitely not a spiritual essential in any way, especially when it comes to recognizing what are all the real functioning sacraments!
You are a real functioning sacrament? The only meaning I can give that is if God is at your beck and call, and will supply His grace at your command. Or perhaps that wherever you go, God showers grace on all just by virtue of your presence.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
... But if this ceremony was now repeated by someone else somewhere else for someone else, would there be a guarantee that God will bring about the same kind of effect? I doubt that you would want to claim that. ...
You can't claim that either, IngoB. You can say that the bread and wine become the precious body and blood. Beyond that, you cannot guarantee what other consequences may or may not follow from any particular Mass. Nor can anyone else.
Not even everyone who goes to Lourdes get healed.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I saw some figures once that suggested that many more pilgrims have died, been injured in accidents etc than have ever apparently been healed at Lourdes.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Is that British understatement our Enoch?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Philip Charles
Ship's cutler
# 618
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Posted
quote:
I'm preaching in a few weeks, and the lectionary readings are leading me to talk about symbolism (the particular symbols being the rainbow of the Noahic Covenant and baptism). Do you mind if I borrow your money analogy for the childrens address?
I'm flattered. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
Children's talks are what adults enjoy most and understand best.
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There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
Posts: 89 | From: Dunedin, NZ | Registered: Jun 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
You can't claim that either, IngoB. You can say that the bread and wine become the precious body and blood. Beyond that, you cannot guarantee what other consequences may or may not follow from any particular Mass. Nor can anyone else.
And how is the former not exactly a case in point for my claim? I didn't say what would be caused by God, only that something specific would be caused without fail. (And incidentally, I explicitly denied physical healing as guaranteed outcome...)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
You can't claim that either, IngoB. You can say that the bread and wine become the precious body and blood. Beyond that, you cannot guarantee what other consequences may or may not follow from any particular Mass. Nor can anyone else.
And how is the former not exactly a case in point for my claim? I didn't say what would be caused by God, only that something specific would be caused without fail. (And incidentally, I explicitly denied physical healing as guaranteed outcome...)
No - there's no guarantee - that would be tantamount to a demand rather than a request. And the predictability of that one effect would tend to make us lose sight of all the other aspects of God, and eventually to take it for granted.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
No - there's no guarantee - that would be tantamount to a demand rather than a request. And the predictability of that one effect would tend to make us lose sight of all the other aspects of God, and eventually to take it for granted.
I don't care for your opinion on this matter, I care for God's opinion. God made promises, God keeps His promises, always and forever. Whatever positive or negative spin you want to put on it, the sacraments are as functionally certain as gravity. Indeed, more so, because God never promised us to keep gravity as it is.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
God keeps His promises, always and forever. Whatever positive or negative spin you want to put on it, the sacraments are as functionally certain as gravity. Indeed, more so, because God never promised us to keep gravity as it is.
I don't think one would have to work very hard to read Genesis 9 vv 8--17 (the rainbow) as a promise that there would be no more messing about with the physics.
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
No - there's no guarantee - that would be tantamount to a demand rather than a request. And the predictability of that one effect would tend to make us lose sight of all the other aspects of God, and eventually to take it for granted.
I don't care for your opinion on this matter, I care for God's opinion. God made promises, God keeps His promises, always and forever. Whatever positive or negative spin you want to put on it, the sacraments are as functionally certain as gravity. Indeed, more so, because God never promised us to keep gravity as it is.
I was referring to the perceived effect, Ingo - which changes. The connection that is made - we probably have very little difference of opinion, if any at all, if all the semantics were to be unpicked.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
I don't think one would have to work very hard to read Genesis 9 vv 8--17 (the rainbow) as a promise that there would be no more messing about with the physics.
I don't know what God precisely was messing with in walking on water, stopping sun and moon, etc., but it sure sounds to me like some physics was being messed with...
[ 06. February 2015, 11:57: Message edited by: IngoB ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
I don't think one would have to work very hard to read Genesis 9 vv 8--17 (the rainbow) as a promise that there would be no more messing about with the physics.
I don't know what God precisely was messing with in walking on water, stopping sun and moon, etc., but it sure sounds to me like some physics was being messed with...
... but not by God imho, as that would be reneging on the promise, which I take as being part and parcel of the foundational myth that the world created by God provides us with an ordered and rational home.
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
... but not by God imho, as that would be reneging on the promise, which I take as being part and parcel of the foundational myth that the world created by God provides us with an ordered and rational home.
You are going to deny that Jesus worked miracles over the promise to Noah?! That's an interesting point of view. I think the promise to Noah is exactly what it says on the tin: In future, God will not again kill off almost everything on the planet just to get a fresh start. (In future, God let's Himself being murdered just to get a fresh start...)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I don't care for your opinion on this matter, I care for God's opinion. God made promises, God keeps His promises, always and forever.
I think it's possible that some may have read your previous post and read 'ultimate cause' when you meant 'proximate cause'.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I was once healed through a Jesus and bread and wine ceremony - at home alone. Many have told me that was not a valid ceremony. Why not? Jesus and bread and wine and an obvious spiritual-caused effect!
That actually tells us precisely nothing, other than that God can act through anything. It could still have been an invalid ceremony in the sense your critics implied.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
I don't see why current understanding of either physics or chemistry should be used as a benchmark for what is or is not possible for God. The "laws of physics" are our laws, not God's laws - they are necessarily a small fragment of a particular perspective of how the universe works. To use a popular analogy, we have looked into the watch and determined that one wheel rotates "this way", without reference to the entire mechanism.
And furthermore, even though some science is considered relatively bullet-proof, ALL of science is a model and is constantly up for review. In principle, scientific laws are "the best we can do at the present time" and will always be so.
If we really knew God's laws wrt the physical world in which we live, we might have a very different view of what is or is not possible under their rule. So requiring that something complies to known physics, or even being astounded when things don't, is mistaking human knowledge with something rather bigger.
In fact, to cut across threads slightly, the same applies for how each one of us experiences God - we look at it from the perspective of our current understanding, and maybe that will always be incomplete... we stumble in the dark.
The sacraments give a good indication of one aspect of these laws - in that it is intention that determines meaning at its most fundamental level. It is the thought that is "creative". If the thought is not taken up that the bread and wine have consequence, then they are just tasteless wafers and a bit of watery vinegar. When we intend to connect, it is the intention/thought that makes the connection possible, and which immediately sets up that connection. One could say that this is magic - my current understanding is that it's only "magic" if we, as humans, attempt to create something ourselves rather than through Gods Grace. The distinction is a rather perilous knife edge.
[Duplicated post deleted]
[ 07. February 2015, 22:41: Message edited by: TonyK ]
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It occurred to me this afternoon as I walked down Dovedale that the wooden, excluding demand of real presence makes Jesus half man half biscuit. Always wondered what that meant.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It occurred to me this afternoon as I walked down Dovedale that the wooden, excluding demand of real presence makes Jesus half man half biscuit. Always wondered what that meant.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Thank you Martin, that late effort has made my day!
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
Sacraments are magical. They require a suspension of what we know to be verifiably true in order for them to be real, just like magic. Magic of course can be debunked in a straightforward way, which is probably the real difference. One can always say a sacrament has an unseen reality to it that exists in a dimension we are unable to ascertain or verify empirically.
[ 15. February 2015, 23:26: Message edited by: Alt Wally ]
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
One can?! One MUST!!!
And Sandemaniac, how will I ever top that?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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