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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Serving the poor and saving the lost
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Er, what does midwinter solstice celebration have to do with Jesus?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Martin60
Thanks for explaining Enoch's post!
From what I've read, your city has a rapidly changing demographic. This is probably one reason why fairly young mosques haven't been able to sort themselves out to address the problems. Still, the problem of a minority of evangelical Christians ministering to struggling Muslims (if it is a problem) probably can't be left unaddressed for much longer. Various inter-faith and ecumenical organisations will have to get involved at some point.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Earlier this year I was on the phone to someone at Christians Against Poverty (CAP) HQ when a bell started ringing in the background. I thought the phone call was about to be cut short while the building was evacuated. But in fact this wasn’t the fire alarm. It was CAP’s ‘salvation bell’. Every time a client becomes a Christian the bell rings and the staff celebrate.
(Source).
quote:
People at CAP would like others to experience God’s love and enter into a relationship with Jesus because it’s the best life on offer
There is no way people with the churchmanship of CAP can understand "saving the lost" as being possible without a verbal explanation of the Gospel.
The author of that piece argues that it is possible to conduct the rest of the ministry and not work towards such an outcome, but I for one would find it difficult to envisage that kind of mindset with a fricking bell going off in head office every time someone "makes a decision" like a productivity target being met on a Japanese-style assembly line ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
And I would feel much more comfortable if such a goal was explicitly mentioned on their website.
Why are there no values at all on the website (at least in the UK)?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Clearly, as the quote came from the Evangelical Alliance magazine (albeit 4 years ago), the writer regarded the ringing bell as a good thing. To be fair, though, the article continues:
quote:
"What struck me is that CAP are not involved in debt counselling so they can then do evangelism. I didn’t get the impression that their social action was a vehicle for their evangelism. At CAP they’re just busy doing the business of God’s kingdom. They want to help people in desperate need and they want to tell people about Jesus. Both are seamlessly intertwined. There’s no sense that evangelism compromises the professional service they offer people. God is not forced on people; they offer the same service level to people regardless of whether they accept CAP’s invitation to pray with them."
Whether you feel that is ingenuous will, I think, depend on where you're coming from. I certainly can't find the evangelistic goal explicitly mentioned on their website. Something may be said in the video (which I haven't watched) or the booklets you can order.
Let me make one thing clear. I heard a CAP speaker about 8 years ago and found his presentation somewhat disquieting, for the reasons we've outlined above. However we cannot deny that many people have found their services extremely helpful and that some have indeed found faith. Thereby lies the dilemma.
[ 10. September 2016, 16:03: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Sometimes I get the feeling that some people living in a very secular culture are a bit embarrassed to let others in on their faith.
Oh yes!
When I look at how the Church deals with the Dead Horse issues I am very embarrassed. I never share the fact that I'm a Christian. If asked I ask what they mean by 'Christian', because I don't identify with what's likely to be their concept at all .
And this is why I always twig to being a Christian. Somebody has to show people that we aren't all asshats. It might as well be me. (Although I am sometimes an asshat, just not a Dead Horse kind. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) )
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Well, didn't St. Paul talk about being a "fool for Christ"? So you're in excellent company!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
However we cannot deny that many people have found their services extremely helpful and that some have indeed found faith. Thereby lies the dilemma.
No, no, a thousand times no.
All too often, "but look at the good work they're doing" is seen, especially in Christian circles, as a kind of trumps-all argument.
Do you hear anyone going round saying that Volkswagen's wilful cheating on emissions tests is somehow excused by the general reliability of their vehicles or their good reputation?
On the contrary, the scandal wholly undermines their credibility; and to my mind the same applies here.
Any overall good performance does not somehow make bad governance disappear or dispense with the need for it to be addressed.
And the fact that some people benefit in no way makes saints out of the providers.
It seems to me that the absence of a statement of any values on the homepage of a charity of this magnitude is really, decidedly odd, especially as the website's look & feel suggests they are no slackers at good PR.
To me this absence means either that they know what their values are but are reluctant to publicise them, or that there is deep internal disagreement about them.
If they have an evangelistic aim they should say so, and they should say so up front.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Er, what does midwinter solstice celebration have to do with Jesus?
I don't know. Does a mid-winter festival connected with Jesus get celebrated in any way in your home? Ever go to church on December 24 or 25 and hear something about a baby who was God? Do some of the jingles on the Muzac at the stores mention something about a Holy Night? I know it is getting a bit tenuous but, yeah, Jesus gets a shout out near the winter solstice.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
My thanks for interesting comments to think about. quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
'The lost' have been mentioned quite a lot in this thread, so I wonder if CAP and members here have a specific definition of this phrase?
Do no send to know whom they mean - they mean you Susan! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I’m afraid Snthetic Dave had a slight problem with the first half of that sentence! ![[Smile]](smile.gif) No problem though.
Seriously howeverh, there is not a moment in my life, and has not been for many a long year, when I have felt in any way spiritually ‘lost’. Not knowing all the facts about something does not ever blur into a belief which requires faith without evidence. quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I see 'saving the lost' as another way of saying 'sharing the good news of Jesus'. Again, while it may be a core value, it does not imply coercion nor conditionality of service, rather a desire to share.
Yes, I do understand that and the more we human beings can do to make others' lives easier in any way, the better.
Regarding the 'good news' about Jesus what is it that you think those with whom you share it will gain, over and above knowing that other people are doing what they can for them? quote:
'The lost' would cover anyone in a spiritual desert due to a lack of knowing which way to turn. Jesus shows us the way.
Well, when I was young, I was certainly in a position where I did not know which way to turn, but there was only one way to get through it and that was to work through it myself. As I went along, I had practical help from people and sorted things out myself. Took about ten years altogether! I never felt I was in a spiritual desert though.
[ 10. September 2016, 17:27: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Yes I have Lyda*Rose, more than once. Sober each time. Unlike many. I found that most strange, being in church on Xmas day surrounded by drunks who never came any other time.
So only in a folk way. Nobody - a couple or three percent - takes it seriously, takes it as Advent.
[ 10. September 2016, 17:32: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
[qb] I see 'saving the lost' as another way of saying 'sharing the good news of Jesus'. Again, while it may be a core value, it does not imply coercion nor conditionality of service, rather a desire to share.
Yes, I do understand that and the more we human beings can do to make others' lives easier in any way, the better.
Regarding the 'good news' about Jesus what is it that you think those with whom you share it will gain, over and above knowing that other people are doing what they can for them?
They might gain a conscious connection with the love of God through the living Christ which will continue for the rest of their lives and be transformative.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Do some of the jingles on the Muzac at the stores mention something about a Holy Night? I know it is getting a bit tenuous but, yeah, Jesus gets a shout out near the winter solstice.
Those jingles on the muzac are being used to sell people stuff they don't need and can't afford. This season is probably where most of the debt problems start. It's also where the retails get into profit. So this "celebration" that's connected with Jesus, so you say, is used by the world as a way transfer wealth from the poorest in our communities to those who can afford to own shares in retail businesses.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
However we cannot deny that many people have found their services extremely helpful and that some have indeed found faith. Thereby lies the dilemma.
To me this absence means either that they know what their values are but are reluctant to publicise them, or that there is deep internal disagreement about them.
If they have an evangelistic aim they should say so, and they should say so up front.
I think this would be a question to ask them.
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Garden. Room. Walk
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Very true. You are (on this occasion) the voice of my conscience. I've just sent them this:
quote:
Hello
I recently heard that your ministry has a number of core values:
• Serve the poor
• Save the lost
• With the church
• Across the nation
Wanting to check this, I visited your website and was surprised to find that not only were these values not visible, I couldn’t actually find a link to a statement of your values anywhere.
Have I missed something on your website? Do you have any public documentation that summarizes your core values? Are the ones above correct and current?
I was quite surprised not to find anything like this in view of the size of your charity.
Do you have any explanation as to why your values are not visible on your website?
Thanks in advance,
Yours sincerely
I'll let y'all know if I get a reply.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I was able to see this from the other side today - those who are fully-onboard with the CAP way of thinking believe that there is no difference between spiritual and physical needs and that the deity would not want them to offer to help with the debt issue without also offering the Good News.
So it seems that they believe it is entirely legitimate to - as some might see it - "lure" clients into close proximity with trained advisors, attend meetings (apparently other kinds of courses offered under the CAP banner) with people with various kinds of problems as ultimately the only important issue is the destination of their eternal soul.
And, in a way, the narrative makes some kind of sense and is quite compelling. It isn't so different to Alcoholics Anonymous, just taken a bit further and in a different direction - here are some people with chaotic things happening in their lives that need redemption and we know that God offers redemption so what is needed is for these people to meet God and for them to allow him to become their saviour and heal them.
It has a revivalist or Primitive Methodist feel to it in a lot of ways.
[ 11. September 2016, 20:22: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
those who are fully-onboard with the CAP way of thinking believe that there is no difference between spiritual and physical needs and that the deity would not want them to offer to help with the debt issue without also offering the Good News.
Then they should say so up front.
I don't think "soup-soap-salvation" was a concealed mission statement...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Then they should say so up front.
I don't think "soup-soap-salvation" was a concealed mission statement...
Yes, I would prefer that they did, but then I can also see that at some level if you believe that your thing is the only true solution available then almost anything is permissible to get punters to access it. And then anyone else suggesting that maybe they ought to change their way of presenting themselves is likely seen as a threat to their holy mission.
[ 12. September 2016, 07:29: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I doubt they'd agree that they are lying, though. At worst they'd probably think it was just a slight change of emphasis in their publicity in order to avoid putting punters off before they've even attended a meeting.
Another thing I heard at the weekend was that CAP can't help people who have debt issues but are self-employed - I guess because of something to do with the regulator..? Which seems to catapult the thing into a level of farce; we are prepared to do whatever it takes to get people to meet Jesus, but not if they're self-employed..
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arse
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
They aren't lying, but if "saving the lost" in an evangelical sense is part of their core values, they are not being transparent about it, quite possibly on the basis of a policy erroneously based on "by all possible means save some" being taken to mean "the ends justify the means".
As I said in my first post in this thread, my guess is that there is in fact some tension within the organisation about this which has been brushed over rather than confronted.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Another thing I heard at the weekend was that CAP can't help people who have debt issues but are self-employed - I guess because of something to do with the regulator..? Which seems to catapult the thing into a level of farce; we are prepared to do whatever it takes to get people to meet Jesus, but not if they're self-employed..
That may be unfair, if they are not permitted to help such folk simply because of external controls or other legal reasons which you and I may not know about.
My suspicion - and it's nothing more - is that they may be legally liable if a self-employed person fails to get out of debt and decides to sue; or else that dealing with such folk is only permitted for Independent Financial Advisors.
[ 12. September 2016, 10:17: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
That may be unfair, if they are not permitted to help such folk simply because of external controls or other legal reasons which you and I may not know about.
My suspicion - and it's nothing more - is that they may be legally liable if a self-employed person fails to get out of debt and decides to sue; or else that dealing with such folk is only permitted for Independent Financial Advisors.
Agreed, as I said this may be nothing to do with them and everything to do with a regulator, but no less farcial!
from the FAQ on their website:
quote:
I am self employed, can you help me?
CAP may not be the best organisation to help you. This is due to the following reasons:
Self employed income is often erratic.
Running a business often means you need to have continued access to credit.
There is a likelihood that your debt problems are connected to business problems.
These reasons make it very difficult to run a CAP Plan in a sustainable way. However, we are able to suggest agencies that can help you tackle the business problems in conjunction with your debt. We would recommend you ring either of the following:
Business Debt Line who offer confidential, independent, free advice on debt and cash flow problems for people who are self employed on 0800 197 6026.
PayPlan, who offer free confidential advice including self employed IVAs. Ring 0800 280 2816 to find out more.
You may also be interested in a CAP Money Course or our Self Help options.
[ 12. September 2016, 10:50: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Actually the CAP FAQ page about their release groups is quite interesting - particularly given that they seem to be modelling them on the 12-step programmes.
There seems to be even less on this page to suggest that they're being run by churches which hold the kind of theology that we've been discussing above, and indeed seems to be being quite insistent that the course is not just for Christians.
That to me underlines the disconnect that worries me here.
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arse
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
from the FAQ on their website:
quote:
I am self employed, can you help me?
CAP may not be the best organisation to help you. This is due to the following reasons:
On this point, but maybe only this point, they are being honest. Knowing that they're not in the best position to help out in all situations, then it is good of them to point those they can't help to other organisations with more suitable expertise.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
On this point, but maybe only this point, they are being honest. Knowing that they're not in the best position to help out in all situations, then it is good of them to point those they can't help to other organisations with more suitable expertise.
I've not found the actual line of text to prove this, but I think it is a requirement from the Financial Conduct Aucthority for regulated debt advisers to signpost to other services.
More interesting to me might be to find out what would happen if (perhaps hypothetically) a client specifically asked if a CAP debt course was intended to be a form of evangelism - because they were an atheist and disapproved of it. According to the CAP website, the service is designed to help everyone, but would they really refer clients to a non-Christian service (or even... I don't know.. one which is known to be run by the Mormons, for example)?
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I also note the CAP annual report 2015 which states that
quote:
We are passionate about releasing people from a life sentence of debt, poverty and its causes.
Our vision is to bring freedom, hope and the good news to people in every UK community through local churches running 1,000 CAP projects by 2021.
We do this through:
a) The relief of poverty for persons in the United Kingdom and elsewhere who are in cond
itions of need, hardship or distress
by reason of their social and/or economic circumstances, by providing and promoting advice and other services.
b) The advancement of education of the public in all matters relating to the management of their personal finances.
c) The advancement of the Christian faith and doctrine.
d) Raising awareness of debt, poverty and its causes in the UK and inspiring churches and individuals to partner with us.
e) Expanding the work internationally where appropriate.
Then the section about advancing the Christian faith says:
quote:
Objective for 2015:
Continue to support local churches, as they reach out into their communities; giving clients the
opportunity to respond to God’s love in action. We also plan to run 14 Discovery Breaks to give 1,000 clients (including children) a break from their normal routine.
As well as physical poverty, our clients face spiritual poverty, isolation and emotional struggles. These are often as a result of
debt, and, in some cases, were contributing factors to debt. We partner with local churches because we care about each person’s complete wellbeing. When visiting clients, a volunteer Befriender accompanies the CAP Debt Coach, offering friendship and support in any
area of life, as needed. We offer prayer for clients and, if they are interested, talk to them more about God. Discovery Breaks are a highlight of the CAP calendar. These 2-4 day holidays offer our clients a break from the day-to-day realities of debt, precious time with their families and, in some cases, their first ever holiday. Discovery Breaks also allow clients the space to consider the reality of a God who loves and cares for them. In 2015, we took 929 people on 14 Discovery Breaks, which saw 254 people respond to the love of God, as part of the 877 people who made this decision throughout the year. This led to us celebrating 5,000 commitments through our work since 1996.
In 2016 we aim to:
Continue developing our relationship with local churchesaround the UK, enabling them to reach out to their communities and giving clients the opportunity to respond to God’s love in action. We also plan to run 14 Discovery Breaks to give 1,000 clients (including children) a break from their normal routine.
Mmm.
[ 12. September 2016, 12:28: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Is this thread about CAP and evangelism or evangelism per se?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
It's about whether serving the poor and saving the lost are compatible objectives in general, and about how CAP addresses that question in particular.
In all good faith, I went to their website to see what they had to say about it, and discovered a total lack of any values at all (my e-mail to them still awaits a reply).
That to me raises an immediate orange, if not red, flag about their transparency of purpose. Talk of a "salvation bell" in head office which rings every time someone becomes a Christian through their ministry to trigger celebrations (reported in a favourable review!) raises further suspicion that the ultimate motive is evangelism and not disinterested debt support.
ETA: That might be ok in certain circumstances, but to my mind failing to state that is emphatically NOT ok.
I take it you don't have an answer to my question to you here?
[ 13. September 2016, 06:42: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Is this thread about CAP and evangelism or evangelism per se?
Well I did want to discuss my own unease about the missionary style approach to social action, where the church effectively "targets" people who need their help for evangelism. However, I'm thinking this through as a result of recent contact with CAP, which put it into context for me. The discussion has not disappointed me so far. Thanks for all contributions thus far.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Still no reply to my e-mail. Disappointing but not surprising, and not doing them any good in this discussion.
I'm a little busy over the next few days, but if I have the time and energy I'll try contacting their press office (if they have one) and failing that, the trustees.
[ 14. September 2016, 10:20: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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