Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Double-consecration
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
The earth is the Lord's and everything in it.
Does that mean that all things are consecrated already and don't therefore need a specific act?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ExclamationMark: quote: Originally posted by Albertus: FFS people, stop being so namby pamby. Where are the verified cases of significant incidence of illness, not during pandemics, acquired by sharing tne common cup?
Yes but some of us are choosy who we share our bodily fluids with. A few of us are very choosy indeed.
Well of course, I can see that if you do have some infectious and loathsome condition, EM, it is only right to be choosy who you share your bodily fluids with. Very public-spirited of you. But whatever it is that you are suffering from, I hope that it clears up soon.
(Actually this reminded me of that lovely line in Clueless where the heroine explains why she is, to her friend's surprise, still a virgin : 'But of course. You know how choosy I am about shoes, and they only go on my feet'. [ 03. June 2015, 20:41: Message edited by: Albertus ]
-------------------- My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Albertus: quote: Originally posted by ExclamationMark: quote: Originally posted by Albertus: FFS people, stop being so namby pamby. Where are the verified cases of significant incidence of illness, not during pandemics, acquired by sharing tne common cup?
Yes but some of us are choosy who we share our bodily fluids with. A few of us are very choosy indeed.
Well of course, I can see that if you do have some infectious and loathsome condition, EM, it is only right to be choosy who you share your bodily fluids with. Very public-spirited of you. But whatever it is that you are suffering from, I hope that it clears up soon.
(Actually this reminded me of that lovely line in Clueless where the heroine explains why she is, to her friend's surprise, still a virgin : 'But of course. You know how choosy I am about shoes, and they only go on my feet'.
Significant bits of me are loathsome - so I wouldn't want to inflict them on others. Little hope of it clearing up (at least in this life), I'm afraid to say.
When it comes to the bodily fluids of others, that's when the yuk sets in ..... let alone the lipstcik et al on the cup!
Suffice to say that Mrs M and the 3 Misses M (now Mrs B, Mrs B and Mrs A), will never share a common cup with anyone else in a church service. Perhaps the fact that they are all employed in the NHS gives them a kind of gnostic understanding of the dangers.
Certainly Mrs B (the middle ex Miss EM) would wipe all surfaces used by more than one person if she could - and that includes the pavement. I'm sure her employers, a major UK hospital trust, values her work as an Infection Control Specialist Nurse overseeing ITU, CC, ITC etc.. I'm sure she knows stuff I don't about cross infection. [ 04. June 2015, 11:47: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Actually, teasing aside, am I right in thinking that anyway it's your tradition to use 'wee cuppies'? Don't know much about Baptist communion practices, I'm afraid.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
The vast majority of Baptist churches do, indeed, use the little cups. They can be made of glass, occasionally metal or even clear plastic (these are intended to be disposal; however they might be washed and reused!)
I have occasionally come across chalices, usually in more informal worship settings and often made of pottery rather than metal. These would often accompany a "real loaf of bread" from which people tear chunks, rather than the antiseptic little cubes of Wonderloaf which are often used. (Wafers are very rare). [ 04. June 2015, 15:15: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
May I ask a dumb question? How in the world do they manage to create those little cubes of Wonder bread anyway? Is there some special bread slicing machine or something? I ask because in my experience bread (even pseudo-bread) crumbles/mushes horribly when you try to slice it that small.
-------------------- Er, this is what I've been up to (book). Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Lamb Chopped: May I ask a dumb question? How in the world do they manage to create those little cubes of Wonder bread anyway? Is there some special bread slicing machine or something? I ask because in my experience bread (even pseudo-bread) crumbles/mushes horribly when you try to slice it that small.
Take a loaf of sliced bread. Take one sharp knife (carving knife size)
Put slice of bread on bread board - knife on bread, press down hard. Repeat with cross cuts to get small cubes. Easy.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
When I was young, I sometimes used to worship in a "Brethren" assembly. This always centred around the Lord's Table. At a crucial moment, an Elder would come to the Table, pick up the (whole) loaf of bread and break it into two halves to place on two plates which would then be circulated. It always amazed me how he could do this - until I discovered that the loaf was pre-cut, three-quarters of the way through, before the service!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan: When I was young, I sometimes used to worship in a "Brethren" assembly. This always centred around the Lord's Table. At a crucial moment, an Elder would come to the Table, pick up the (whole) loaf of bread and break it into two halves to place on two plates which would then be circulated. It always amazed me how he could do this - until I discovered that the loaf was pre-cut, three-quarters of the way through, before the service!
Good grief - first Matisse-gate, now this. How can you trust anyone in this world?!
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan: When I was young, I sometimes used to worship in a "Brethren" assembly. This always centred around the Lord's Table. At a crucial moment, an Elder would come to the Table, pick up the (whole) loaf of bread and break it into two halves to place on two plates which would then be circulated. It always amazed me how he could do this - until I discovered that the loaf was pre-cut, three-quarters of the way through, before the service!
Aaaah he's not been shown how to do it! Try holding the loaf with the 1st two fingers of each hand underneath it. At the moment of consecration/thanksgiving stab the fingers into the base of the loaf and pull apart.
Two halves! Simples - can be repeated as necessary.
[Mind you I have now moved on to a) wrenching flower pots apart b) bending 6 inch nails.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Beeswax Altar: quote: Originally posted by Albertus: quote: Originally posted by leo: The mass is not valid unless you consecrate bread and wine.
Since the real presence is for ever, you cannot 're'consecrate.
No fresh wine, no consecration, no mass.
Ahem. This argument works if you are an RC but not if you are CofE- Article XXVIII: Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by holy Writ; but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions.
Fair enough. However, based on the theology of the 39 Articles reserving the leftover wine in the first place is problematic. I also don't understand the people who have a problem with Benediction but not keeping watch in front of an altar of repose from Maundy Thursday until Good Friday. If Jesus is really present on that altar, then what's wrong with benediction. If Jesus is not really present on that altar, why are you awake in the wee hours of the morning sitting in front of tasteless bread and cheap wine?
Thanks for the reminder of the Articles Albertus. I had another look.
The Article states we partake in the body and blood of Christ in an "heavenly and spiritual manner". How does that equate with "Real Presence".?
And something else I'd forgotten: " The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was not by Christ's ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up or worshipped". Fascinating! We've always had reserve sacrament at all the Anglican parishes I've been in. How does that work? Indeed technically the OP's question about re-consecration would be invalid because technically we're not suppose to reserve.
Ya wha........?
Or is this simply a case of the 39 Articles being "guiders" rather than strict rules?
-------------------- a theological scrapbook
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
And you have the Black Rubric to contend with as well: quote: Whereas it is ordained in this Office for the Administration of the Lord's Supper, that the Communicants should receive the same kneeling; (which order is well meant, for a signification of our humble and grateful acknowledgment of the benefits of Christ therein given to all worthy Receivers, and for the avoiding of such profanation and disorder in the holy Communion, as might otherwise ensue;) yet, lest the same kneeling should by any persons, either out of ignorance and infirmity, or out of malice and obstinacy, be misconstrued and depraved: It is hereby declared, That thereby no adoration is intended, or ought to be done, either unto the Sacramental Bread or Wine there bodily received, or unto any Corporal Presence of Christ's natural Flesh and Blood. For the Sacramental Bread and Wine remain still in their very natural substances, and therefore may not be adored; (for that were Idolatry, to be abhorred of all faithful Christians;) and the natural Body and Blood of our Saviour Christ are in Heaven, and not here; it being against the truth of Christ's natural Body to be at one time in more places than one.
[ 07. June 2015, 12:00: Message edited by: seasick ]
-------------------- We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Evensong: The Article states we partake in the body and blood of Christ in an "heavenly and spiritual manner". How does that equate with "Real Presence".?
This shows the Reformed influence on the 39 Articles, as this is the classic Reformed understanding. A spiritual presence is no less "real" than a physical one.
-------------------- The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Utrecht Catholic
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# 14285
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Posted
I think that it is getting time to revise the 39 Articles, since they do not reflect the current understanding of the Eucharist in the Anglican Communion. Reservation,Elevation are normal liturgical practises with the Anglicans. Even Benediction and Procession of the Blessed Sacrament are not unusual,I have witnessed them in several C.of.E.Cathedrals. Not to forget the cathedrals outside the U.K.
-------------------- Robert Kennedy
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Given that the 39 Articles no longer have any authority anywhere within the Anglican Communion AFAIK, I'm not sure it matters! The most that can be said is that they represent an opinion that was present in the Church of England in the sixteenth century which the authorities at the time wanted to enforce. There is no problem with taking them into account as part of one's heritage, but they are certainly not binding.
-------------------- Flinging wide the gates...
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic: I think that it is getting time to revise the 39 Articles, since they do not reflect the current understanding of the Eucharist in the Anglican Communion. Reservation,Elevation are normal liturgical practises with the Anglicans. Even Benediction and Procession of the Blessed Sacrament are not unusual,I have witnessed them in several C.of.E.Cathedrals. Not to forget the cathedrals outside the U.K.
As with many things, this can vary. Reservation (often done very quietly, without tabernacles and perhaps even in the sacristy) is found among some Episcopal churches in these parts, but not in all. Benediction and a Procession of the Blessed Sacrament would very unusual around here—not normal at all.
As for Eucharistic understandings, a variety of viewpoints are found among Episcopalians around here. Some are very much in line with the 39 Articles, others are very Oxford Movement, and others are in between or even somewhat memorialist.
-------------------- The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Utrecht Catholic
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# 14285
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Posted
The Eucharistic Prayers of the 1979 BCP are more in line with the Oxford Movement than with the 39 articles. My American friends have told me that the 39 Aricles are regarded as an historical document,not relevant any more. It could be that they are relevant for the Anglican Church in North America. The US E.P.s do not reflect any memorialist view just the opposite Real Presence and Eucharistic Sacrifice.
-------------------- Robert Kennedy
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic: The Eucharistic Prayers of the 1979 BCP are more in line with the Oxford Movement than with the 39 articles. . . . The US E.P.s do not reflect any memorialist view just the opposite Real Presence and Eucharistic Sacrifice.
True up to a point, though there is still language, particularly in Rite I, that reflects an understanding closer to the 39 Articles. As with many things Anglican, there is some balance and compromise.
But in any event, I was talking about the variety of viewpoints that can be found, or at least that I have encountered, among Episcopalians, not the teachings reflected in the BCP.
-------------------- The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic: The Eucharistic Prayers of the 1979 BCP are more in line with the Oxford Movement than with the 39 articles. My American friends have told me that the 39 Aricles are regarded as an historical document,not relevant any more. It could be that they are relevant for the Anglican Church in North America. The US E.P.s do not reflect any memorialist view just the opposite Real Presence and Eucharistic Sacrifice.
Just to be clear (and this is a tangent) neither the Anglican CHurch of Canada nor the Anglican church in Mexico, nor for that matter the ANglican churches in Bermuda and the province of the West Indies -- all of which are part of the Anglican CHurch in North America -- are in any way affected by what the Episcopal CHurch of the US has in its Prayer Book or by its attitude to the 39 Articles.
As it happens, they are widely considered in the ACC to be simply historical artifacts, but they continue to be printed in the official BCP (not altered since 1959), and I don't know if there is in fact any formal statement about them since 1959.
Canadians and other non-US North Americans tend to be a little touchy about these things.
John [ 08. June 2015, 01:11: Message edited by: John Holding ]
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
Lutherans take a different approach. The elements are consecrated for just the one service alone. If wine is left over from a previous service it is no more consecrated than the wine just poured from the bottle. (I agree the wine in the chalice should be totally consumed or poured out on the ground--I am talking about wine left over in the flagon).
Now, when it comes to communing shut ins we fudge a little. We take the elements of the previous service to share with the sick and shut in with the understanding they are still paricipating in that mass. Still, I will say the words of consecreation, just to assure my people they are partaking of the body and blod
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