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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Pope at Madison Square Garden
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
My dad was one of the boys shouting vivat at the coronation - and yes it is rehearsed.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Mudfrog --
A friend of mine was one of the boys in the Abbey choir just after the coronation, and he assured me that the Vivats were indeed shouted by (some of) the boys of Westminster School, to whom that role belongs. I suppose they must have been coached as to when and how to shout, and perhaps they did so in a way that worked with the music.
John
Yes I know they did. Who is saying they didn't? They also did it at the 60th Anniversary service.
What I am saying is that it wasn't hysterical adulation.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
What I am saying is that it wasn't hysterical adulation. [/QB]
Well, I think it was the liturgical expression of adulation, and I think that Parry captures the hysteria marvellously in the way he incorporates the traditional high-pitched schoolboy "vivat"s into his anthem.
(Do I have to add a Corbynesque "I love my country"?)
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
What I am saying is that it wasn't hysterical adulation.
Well, I think it was the liturgical expression of adulation, and I think that Parry captures the hysteria marvellously in the way he incorporates the traditional high-pitched schoolboy "vivat"s into his anthem.
(Do I have to add a Corbynesque "I love my country"?) [/QB]
I'm sorry to be a pedant on this (I am English after all ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ) but:
quote:
ad·u·la·tion (ăj′ə-lā′shən)
n.
Excessive flattery or admiration.
[Middle English adulacioun, from Old French, from Latin adūlātiō, adūlātiōn-, from adūlātus, past participle of adūlārī, to flatter.]
American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2011 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.
adulation (ˌædjʊˈleɪʃən)
n
1. obsequious flattery or praise; extreme admiration
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
and
quote:
hysterical
hɪˈstɛrɪk(ə)l/Submit
adjective
1.
affected by or deriving from wildly uncontrolled emotion.
"Janet became hysterical and began screaming"
synonyms: overwrought, emotional, uncontrolled, uncontrollable, out of control, unrestrained, unrestrainable, frenzied, in a frenzy, frantic, wild, feverish; More
The 'Vivat Regina Elizabetha' is neither adulation (hysterical or otherwise), it is actually an 'acclamation':
quote:
acclamation
[ak-luh-mey-shuh n]
Spell Syllables
Word Origin
noun
1.
a loud shout or other demonstration of welcome, goodwill, or approval.
2.
act of acclaiming.
3.
Liturgy. a brief responsive chant in antiphonal singing.
4.
Ecclesiastical, response (def 3a).
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Crowds behaving in 'rock-star' fashion when the Queen attends church from Sandringham or Balmoral is a new one on me, american piskie ...
Yes, you'll get waving crowds but as Mudfrog rightly says, hardly 'hysterical adulation' ...
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
I recognise hysterical adulation when I see it and I don't see it when the Queen goes to a church service. Sure, there are people who idolise the monarchy but the most you'll get is some enthusiastic flag-waving - which isn't quite the same thing as 'hysterical adulation'.
Mudfrog and I both live on this scept'red isle. We know these things ...
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
Oh dear, my own youthful experience of being in the crowd as Her Majesty passed by was that I was part of a crowd indulging feverishly in obsequious praise. But there we go: nowadays when I see it on the telly I comfort myself reflecting on the Scottish minister's prayer at Crathie for Queen Victoria, "May she go before her people as a he-goat upon the mountains!"
(My religious affiliation does not match my residence.)
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
Back to the Mass at Madison Square Gardens ... it all looked rather splendid to me. But a question, not specifically about this service, but related to it. I think that of the three hymns, one was based on the words of St Francis, one was written by a Lutheran and one by an Anglican (please correct me if I'm wrong). Is there a set of 'acceptable' hymns in the Catholic church, or are those who are responsible for such things allowed wide latitude in choice of hymn, even if the Pope is visiting? Just curious.
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
Posts: 9123 | From: Near where I was before. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
The General Instruction on the Roman Missal assumes that either each bishop or each bishop's conference will approve hymns for their diocese or conference (the use of hymns always technically being second choice to chanting the texts provided in the Missal). This has never been done in the US. We have a variety of publishers here, all of whom will seek an imprimatur ("let it be printed") from their local publisher before publishing a hymnal. So, Archbishop Cupich controls what GIA can publish; Archbishop Sample, the repertoire of OCP; etc. Here at Notre Dame, we have our own hymnal, and the local bishop approved it (actually, he delegates that to one of our faculty here, who is priest of the diocese, which may have facilitated the process!).
In every diocese I've been in in the US, the understanding has been that so long as some bishop somewhere has approved it, it can be used there.
Many hymns of non-Catholic origin are popular. One Methodist friend remarked to me mournfully that Catholics are more likely to sing Wesley hymns than they are!
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Sorry, my description of the imprimatur process swapped the word 'publisher' for 'bishop' at one point, rather obscuring the point. I meant:
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
... We have a variety of publishers here, all of whom will seek an imprimatur ("let it be printed") from their local bishop before publishing a hymnal. ...
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
See from about 29:30 till about 31:30 on the video Miss Amanda linked to. That's plenty of chalanting for my money!
What is a little odd is that the deacon got there before the cantor, who was also using the ambo, had finished the acclamation. The cantor either forgot to take her music with her or had been told not to, and a special server had to clear a space for the gospel book (I wonder if that server did anything else that whole Mass they had so many of them!).
This has me wondering if it's technically correct that the gospel verse should be proclaimed from the ambo. Everywhere I can think either has the gospeller do it from the ambo, or a cantor do it from a separate cantor stand. Maybe the Papal Mass is the 'right' way to do it, but it seems awfully awkward.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
Because I genuinely do not know the answer:
How much say or sway do prelates have when they are making visitations, and does it matter if it's inside or outside the diocese or province, and is the Bishop of Rome a special case either because he is the Pope or because of the nature of a state visit or both?
Answers on a postcard please.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
The rubrics do not specify the location from which the Alleluia or other gospel acclamation is to be sung, only that it is:
62. After the reading that immediately precedes the Gospel, the Alleluia or another chant laid down by the rubrics is sung, as the liturgical time requires. An acclamation of this kind constitutes a rite or act in itself, by which the gathering of the faithful welcomes and greets the Lord who is about to speak to them in the Gospel and profess their faith by means of the chant. It is sung by everybody, standing, and is led by the choir or a cantor, being repeated as the case requires. The verse, on the other hand, is sung either by the choir or by a cantor.
As an experienced MC, I would agree that if there is an actual gospel procession, with incense and lights, that the cantor should be elsewhere at that moment, so as not to be in the way.
[ 09. October 2015, 12:42: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Generally speaking a prelate will only have a say within his own diocese where he is the chief shepherd of the faithful.
An archbishop similarly within his own province,particularly if he is in a situation of sede vacante within his province and he is replacing the departed bishop.
Within the Catholic church the pope has 'universal jurisdiction'.Only he has the right to wear the pallium outside of his own province.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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