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Source: (consider it) Thread: Anyone know any 'cured' gay folk?
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
A good friend of mine, who has always been gay, is now getting married to a woman.

Does she know? If so, then please give them my congratulations and best wishes. If she doesn't know, then I wouldn't want to give him the time of day and my opinion is unprintable.
Be reassured. And it came as much of surprise to him as it did to us...

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Forward the New Republic

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Augustine the Aleut
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Anecdotology may not be useful here, but I have two lesbian friends who have married men. One (Antiochian Orthodox) continues to claim to be lesbian, although monogamous in her marriage with a man (no denomination, but supportive of their child being raised Orthie). The other (lapsed UCofC) says she is not really certain about her self-definition, but states that she does not know if it is important.

However, I have a straight woman friend (Unitarian) who has married another woman (Presbyterian Church of Canada) and (details available if you're really interested) they have a child (baptized PCC but in Unitarian Sunday school) together. She continues to hold that she is straight as an arrow; she happened to fall in love with someone who happened to be female.

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Evangeline
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# 7002

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

My gay lifestyle today involved doing lots of filing, and there might be some ironing this evening.

Your gay lifestyle seems very similar to my straight one. Except the ironing bit. And the filing. But similar in nature if not detail.
Does writing a Word doc count with filing?

Gays don't use Word. We've got our own special software.
What, why did nobody tell me before????? For something that replaces Bill Gates's annoying rubbishy software I might consider a change in sexual preference......
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
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quote:
Originally posted by Mary Marriott:
One common form of 'treatment' involves the giving of electric shocks, to gay men while pictures of naked men are shown, projected large size on to a screen. Electrode round one ankle. Very searing pain.

After the shocks comes calm and pictures of women ar projected on to the big screen.

Then more men, more shocks.

These sessions a number of times per week at psychiatric hospital out-patients in the UK. This is still going on to this day I believe.

It is not happening in the NHS now and has't for decades. If, big if, it is happening anywhere in the private sector it is probably being done illegally. ECT is offered under anesthisia for severe depression - and dedicated ect suites exist in big acute hospitals for this purpose.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Gays don't use Word. We've got our own special software.

What, why did nobody tell me before????? For something that replaces Bill Gates's annoying rubbishy software I might consider a change in sexual preference......
Actually, you don't have to be gay to use OpenOffice.

And it makes my word count look bigger [Razz]

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Forward the New Republic

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Gays don't use Word. We've got our own special software.

The hardware, however is exactly the same.

I'm interested in hearing of your treatment, orfeo. Not the same as Mary's I hope. Let's hope the software does not eat it again.

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beatmenace
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There is another one in the Indy.

Is there a tax exemption for working on this particular part of the Christian Loony Fringe?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/they-say-being-gay-is-a-sin--and-they-cant-get-over-it-7643992.html

Don't know whats worse in this article - describing Greenbelt Festival as being responsible for the 'Gayification of society' or calling the said Festival 'innocuous'.

Not the effect the organisers were trying to achieve i think.

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
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The "treatment" in that article is horrendous. I wonder which part of the Bible they get their traumatising people for Jesus beliefs from.

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Edith
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Does anyone know anything about these so called Christian groups? There has been a lot of ink spilled and they have garnered a huge amount of publicity for their bizarre views. But I've never heard of them before. What really upsets me is that friends and acquaintances are blaming 'Christians' for every bit of homophobia they can. Many are mystified that I can continue to be a Christian if these are the views that they hold. In vain do I protest that that they are probably a very small totally untypical subset. It's a dilemma, isn't it? Do we protest about it and thus publicise it, or do we ignore it and trust that in the general bombarding of the senses in Central London, everyone else will too.

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Edith

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Louise
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# 30

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At Anglican Mainstream's last conference on homosexuality only 30 people turned up. But they have some well-known defenders - Lord Carey, Michael Nazir Ali and Wallace Benn, Bishop of Lewes. Though the first two are retired, they are very popular with sections of the media and get a lot of coverage. Because the current Archbishops haven't spoken up about this and dissociated themselves from it, I think there is a problem that actual mainstream Anglicanism (and other churches) will be undeservedly associated with this.

L.

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Sir Pellinore
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Mainstream Anglicanism currently suffers many ills, Louise.

If you like, you could add it to your list.

I've run out of space.
[Killing me]

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Well...

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beatmenace
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Ouch - what started as merely a puzzled piece of questioning now seems to have implicated a couple of Bishops too. Now I have found some of George Carey's recent pronouncements a bit paranoid, for a man who wrote 'the church in the marketplace' the conflict of christianity with increasingly secularised culture shouldnt be suprising - but Bishop Nazir-Ali always seemed reasonably sensible.

Ignoring Westbro Baptists who have their own unique spot on the loony spectrum, the way i seem to see it there seem to be three strands of Christian Opinion on this issue.

1) God sees Homosexuality as needing repentance / deliverance / curing.
Anglican 'Mainstream' (hah) seem to take this view. Cue Loony Psychotherapy / Demon slaying depending on your church background.

2) God wants gay folk to stay Homosexual but live a celibate / non-partnered life. I think this is the official 'Mainstream' view of the Church of England and I think its now the current view of True Freedom Trust who were mentioned in one of the articles.

3) God doesnt care about your orientation or practice. He is much more concerned about other stuff, like 'loving your neighbour as yourself' etc. The biblical Hebrew and Greek wasn't intended to apply to a modern understanding of Homosexuality.

In an attempt to balance scripture with experience i would have leaned towards 2) but as i have now done more reading on the actual Greek and the culture of the Roman world I now read the texts differently (Romans 1 particularly).

Thanks for sharing your experiences Shipmates, i think i'm now pretty much in camp 3) or at least enough to belive there are different ways to read scripture on this - making it an 'agree to disagree' issue, and not worth all the heat its generating in the media.

Except for the human cost which does need exposing, which i think is the REAL issue here. I think most of these curers are deceiving themselves - and the truth is not in them.....causing great harm in the process.

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Alogon
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4) A homosexual inclination is a call to the monastic life.

Without being as accepting or indifferent as (3), it promises a far more positive and valued place in the cosmos than does the dismal negativism of (2).

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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beatmenace
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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
4) A homosexual inclination is a call to the monastic life.

Thats an aspect i hadn't thought of - not being from a tradition with a monastic component. Agree wholeheartedly that that might be a more positive way to go if you are committed to celibacy.

I think i'd see that as a subset of 2)though.

I also think that that whatever body sits as the 'Monking Selection Board' would look for a BIT more evidence of a call to the Cloisters than Sexual Orientation. But i could be wrong.

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LucyP
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Am currently reading " The Mind and the Brain : neuroplasticity and the power of mental force", by Jeffrey Schwartz, a psychiatrist who has also written a book about treatment for Obsessive Compulsive disorder.

The book (like Norman Doidge's The brain that changes itself ) outlines a paradigm shift in our understanding of the brain's capability for change.

As late as the 1990s, it was believed that the brain could not rewire itself. So after a stroke, if you had lost the use of the neurones that controlled your left arm, no other neurones could take over that function.

Research in the last 2 decades has demonstrated that this is false, and that -with appropriate therapy -new neurones can be co-opted into taking over the function of the old ones.

Schwartz extends this concept to managing psychiatric conditions such as OCD, and treats them by using (Buddhist inspired) mindfulness based therapy. For example, instead of being overwhelmed by OCD impulses, a person learns to recognise these impulses as "an OCD thought", and instigates alternative, pleasant or neutral behaviours, instead of performing a compulsive action. Schwarz claims that this approach is far more effective than previous approaches using behavioural strategies (such as forced exposure therapy). He is optimistic that "brain states" are amenable to alteration, and that free will trumps biological determinism (with appropriate assistance; change is not always possible through "sheer will power".)

He says that when therapy has been successful, there are objectively demonstrable alterations in brain functioning, as shown on, for example, PET scans before and after therapy.

I think these theories may shed some light on why, over time, some people are able to change the way they relate to and express their sexual identities.

Brain science and psychological therapy are evolving rapidly, and the more we find out the more we realise there is to know. Sadly, a lot of people become fodder for unknowing therapists, who may mean well, but who are limited by the paradigms of their time.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
4) A homosexual inclination is a call to the monastic life.

Without being as accepting or indifferent as (3), it promises a far more positive and valued place in the cosmos than does the dismal negativism of (2).

Except that would be like putting a straight person into a co-ed monastery...Constant temptations.

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Sir Pellinore
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I'm not sure gays are called to any particular lifestyle, Alogon.

There are gays everywhere and they seem to function OK. Most seem perfectly normal. It's the abnormal ones who seem to attract attention and I'd hazard a guess they're abnormal for other reasons than their sexuality.

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Well...

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
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That would be true of straight people as well, Sir P.

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kiwimacahau
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Surely a liking for celibacy is the criteria for the call to a celibate, monastic life?

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by LucyP:
Am currently reading " The Mind and the Brain : neuroplasticity and the power of mental force", by Jeffrey Schwartz, a psychiatrist who has also written a book about treatment for Obsessive Compulsive disorder.

The book (like Norman Doidge's The brain that changes itself ) outlines a paradigm shift in our understanding of the brain's capability for change.

As late as the 1990s, it was believed that the brain could not rewire itself. So after a stroke, if you had lost the use of the neurones that controlled your left arm, no other neurones could take over that function.

Research in the last 2 decades has demonstrated that this is false, and that -with appropriate therapy -new neurones can be co-opted into taking over the function of the old ones.

Pertinent to this is a documentary about a rugby player who 'woke up gay' after a stroke. It's being repeated this Tuesday according to this.

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Custard
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It's worth pointing out that Peter Ould, Anglican priest, well-known blogger and Post-Gay activist has commented on the issue.

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Belle Ringer
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A lot of literature I've read over the years assumes people are a whole lot more flexible sexually than "is s/he hetero or homo" assumes. Man wants sex, if a person of preferred sex is available, great. If not, then someone of the other sex will do. If neither is available, then a sheep will do.
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Timothy the Obscure

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
This is why the professional bodies in medicine and psychiatry will probably not allow this kind of therapy from now on, as, as soon as you say that homosexual desire or behaviour is sinful, you are no longer doing psychotherapy at all.

Similarly, I doubt if any psychotherapist would today say that adultery is sinful.

The real point is that psychotherapy does not treat sin, it treats mental disorders (OK, there's some controversy there too--maybe it treats "problems in living," but we'll set that aside for now). And there is no rational basis for viewing homosexuality as a mental disorder.

I once worked with a therapist who I suspect was doing "reparative therapy." He never actually said so, but did mention that he got a lot of referrals from local clergy for men with "gender issues." I suspect he considered himself a "cured homosexual," though again, he never talked about it. I'm fairly confident he had never been attracted to a woman, based on my observations of how he interacted with them.

However, I do believe that sexual orientation is more fluid than we are comfortable acknowledging. I know a woman who was a lesbian for most of her life, and who in her 50s fell in love with and married a man. And I know other people who have fluctuated. I don't think homosexuality is one thing--there can be many pathways leading to the same overt behavior.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
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Sir Pellinore
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"My mother made me a homosexual".

"If I gave her the wool would she knit me one as well?"

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Well...

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
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There's an article on the BBC website today about a man who thinks the stroke he had turned him gay (his whole personality changed). There is a discussion about whether this is possible or whether he was really gay all along. If a stroke can do this to someone, then I suppose it's also possible a stroke could turn a gay person straight. I'd be interested to see if anyone claims this for themself.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
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That's Tonight, 9PM BBC3.

And hopefully for a week on i>player.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
There's an article on the BBC website today about a man who thinks the stroke he had turned him gay (his whole personality changed). There is a discussion about whether this is possible or whether he was really gay all along. If a stroke can do this to someone, then I suppose it's also possible a stroke could turn a gay person straight. I'd be interested to see if anyone claims this for themself.

Given some of the research on the association of sexuality with certain brain structures (ie differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals in the size of particular areas), it seems entirely plausible to me that a stroke, physically changing the brain, could have that effect.

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Bran Stark
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quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
Ignoring Westbro Baptists who have their own unique spot on the loony spectrum, the way i seem to see it there seem to be three strands of Christian Opinion on this issue.

1) God sees Homosexuality as needing repentance / deliverance / curing.
Anglican 'Mainstream' (hah) seem to take this view. Cue Loony Psychotherapy / Demon slaying depending on your church background.

2) God wants gay folk to stay Homosexual but live a celibate / non-partnered life. I think this is the official 'Mainstream' view of the Church of England and I think its now the current view of True Freedom Trust who were mentioned in one of the articles.

I think 2 is actually rather a cruel position compared to 1. Harsh as 1 may be, it is at least consistent - homosexuality is a regrettable distortion of God's creation. But unless I'm reading you wrong, 2 appears to imply that God intentionally gives some people homosexual desires and then proceeds to turn around and make such desires sinful.

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beatmenace
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Brian - i am coming round to agreeing with you.

I have just set out the three common positions i have encountered.

My problem with 2) was it seems to me to be largely a fudge to keep notionally in line with Scripture and Tradition - both of which i think is important , and to keep Evangelicals ,Catholics and Liberals broadly abort the same Anglican ship.

There may be other ways to look at it though which does treat scripture seriously.

Try this....

http://www.thegodarticle.com/7/post/2011/10/clobbering-biblical-gay-bashing.html

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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)

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beatmenace
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Did i say 'abort the anglican ship' - is that a Freudian slip??

Of course i meant 'aboad'.

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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)

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Peter Ould
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quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
I think 2 is actually rather a cruel position compared to 1. Harsh as 1 may be, it is at least consistent - homosexuality is a regrettable distortion of God's creation. But unless I'm reading you wrong, 2 appears to imply that God intentionally gives some people homosexual desires and then proceeds to turn around and make such desires sinful.

This is a rather bizarre way of viewing the doctrine of Creation and Fall. Isn't it perfectly possible for someone to have a homosexual orientation which is "biological" but is part of the Fall? Your line of reasoning seems to be that every aspect of every person is good since we are God's creation - would you say for example that God *intentionally* gives people sexual desires towards children given that we know that some people have such sexual attractions?

And no, I'm not implying a moral equivalence, but I bet someone here will claim that I am and go off on one.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Peter Ould:
And no, I'm not implying a moral equivalence, but I bet someone here will claim that I am and go off on one.

Oh right, forgot one! (Related post on a parallel thread.) "[N]ot implying a moral equivalence" usually precedes or follows a statement about why two things are, in fact, equivalent, usually in a moral context. It's always interesting how those claiming they're not implying a moral equivalence between homosexuality and pedophilia (or bestiality, or kleptomania, or . . . ) can never seem to find an analogy that doesn't involve some kind of predatory immorality or criminal behavior. I've yet to hear anyone advance an argument along the lines of "would you say for example that God *intentionally* makes people left-handed?", probably because such analogies don't go where the analogist wants them to go. (" . . . therefore gays should get back in the closet, just like those sinister Lefties should get Right with the Lord!")

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Bran Stark
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quote:
Originally posted by Peter Ould:
This is a rather bizarre way of viewing the doctrine of Creation and Fall. Isn't it perfectly possible for someone to have a homosexual orientation which is "biological" but is part of the Fall?

Of course it's possible for homosexual orientation to be biological yet part of the Fall. It's what I believe, in fact. But if the orientation is part of the Fall, then how can we say that "God wants gay folk to stay Homosexual"?

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Avila
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# 15541

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
There's an article on the BBC website today about a man who thinks the stroke he had turned him gay (his whole personality changed). There is a discussion about whether this is possible or whether he was really gay all along. If a stroke can do this to someone, then I suppose it's also possible a stroke could turn a gay person straight. I'd be interested to see if anyone claims this for themself.

Given some of the research on the association of sexuality with certain brain structures (ie differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals in the size of particular areas), it seems entirely plausible to me that a stroke, physically changing the brain, could have that effect.
Just watching the programme on iplayer now and given that there are cases (at least AFAIK) of post stroke changes to accents and other elements of personality why not this?

But it feels that the fear of it being used against them makes it too hard to acknowledge that rare things can happen.

It links with the 'cure' debate as well.

In my experience someone who comes out mid life is held up as one who was always gay but suppressed. But if anyone were to travel the opposite way...

If we are all on a sprectrum then surely it can go both ways. And therefore people will exist who have changed from gay to straight relationships as well as the other way around.

Yes there are reasons why people may seek to suppress an opposed minority aspect of who they are, but the assumption that all shifts are due to this is perhaps damaging. not least in terms of prior relationships which can be felt to be 'unreal' or 'invalid' in some way.

In the same way those who move to a straight relationship amid all this cure talk are dismissing their previous life.

Why do we have to do this? Why can't we be allowed to change over time in lots of ways?

Probably because it is too much of a threat to both tribes...

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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/

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Peter Ould
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# 482

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Ould:
And no, I'm not implying a moral equivalence, but I bet someone here will claim that I am and go off on one.

Oh right, forgot one! (Related post on a parallel thread.) "[N]ot implying a moral equivalence" usually precedes or follows a statement about why two things are, in fact, equivalent, usually in a moral context. It's always interesting how those claiming they're not implying a moral equivalence between homosexuality and pedophilia (or bestiality, or kleptomania, or . . . ) can never seem to find an analogy that doesn't involve some kind of predatory immorality or criminal behavior. I've yet to hear anyone advance an argument along the lines of "would you say for example that God *intentionally* makes people left-handed?", probably because such analogies don't go where the analogist wants them to go. (" . . . therefore gays should get back in the closet, just like those sinister Lefties should get Right with the Lord!")
And where did *I* make the moral analogy?

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Peter Ould
www.peter-ould.net

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Peter Ould
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# 482

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quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Ould:
This is a rather bizarre way of viewing the doctrine of Creation and Fall. Isn't it perfectly possible for someone to have a homosexual orientation which is "biological" but is part of the Fall?

Of course it's possible for homosexual orientation to be biological yet part of the Fall. It's what I believe, in fact. But if the orientation is part of the Fall, then how can we say that "God wants gay folk to stay Homosexual"?
Because ever so often God has a purpose through suffering? No-one ever said being a Christian meant that you have a perfect life.

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Peter Ould
www.peter-ould.net

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Peter Ould:
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Ould:
This is a rather bizarre way of viewing the doctrine of Creation and Fall. Isn't it perfectly possible for someone to have a homosexual orientation which is "biological" but is part of the Fall?

Of course it's possible for homosexual orientation to be biological yet part of the Fall. It's what I believe, in fact. But if the orientation is part of the Fall, then how can we say that "God wants gay folk to stay Homosexual"?
Because ever so often God has a purpose through suffering? No-one ever said being a Christian meant that you have a perfect life.
If God put a thorn in my flesh, it really isn't necessary for my brothers and sisters in Christ to keep hammering it in.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Soror Magna
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# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Peter Ould:
... Because ever so often God has a purpose through suffering? No-one ever said being a Christian meant that you have a perfect life.

Welcome to the Ship, Peter Ould. We have a saying around here: Suffering for one's beliefs makes one a martyr. Making other people suffer for one's beliefs makes one a prat. OliviaG
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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
There's an article on the BBC website today about a man who thinks the stroke he had turned him gay (his whole personality changed). There is a discussion about whether this is possible or whether he was really gay all along. If a stroke can do this to someone, then I suppose it's also possible a stroke could turn a gay person straight. I'd be interested to see if anyone claims this for themself.

Given some of the research on the association of sexuality with certain brain structures (ie differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals in the size of particular areas), it seems entirely plausible to me that a stroke, physically changing the brain, could have that effect.
Just watching the programme on iplayer now and given that there are cases (at least AFAIK) of post stroke changes to accents and other elements of personality why not this?

But it feels that the fear of it being used against them makes it too hard to acknowledge that rare things can happen.

It links with the 'cure' debate as well.

In my experience someone who comes out mid life is held up as one who was always gay but suppressed. But if anyone were to travel the opposite way...

If we are all on a sprectrum then surely it can go both ways. And therefore people will exist who have changed from gay to straight relationships as well as the other way around.

Yes there are reasons why people may seek to suppress an opposed minority aspect of who they are, but the assumption that all shifts are due to this is perhaps damaging. not least in terms of prior relationships which can be felt to be 'unreal' or 'invalid' in some way.

In the same way those who move to a straight relationship amid all this cure talk are dismissing their previous life.

Why do we have to do this? Why can't we be allowed to change over time in lots of ways?

Probably because it is too much of a threat to both tribes...

Well, first off, the social pressure in each direction isn't equal. There simply isn't a social pressure for people to change from straight to gay, despite feeling inside that they're straight.

Also, there's a significant difference between accepting that a change in the brain could affect sexuality, and saying that people OUGHT to work on changing their brain in order to achieve a change in their sexuality.

There are aspects of personality that can be changed by a stroke or a brain injury, but it's not usual for people to take that information and say to people who have a personality that others find distateful, "it's in your brain, so you really should be working to get a better personality".

Accepting the possibility of change is not the same as expecting it.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Peter Ould
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# 482

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If God put a thorn in my flesh, it really isn't necessary for my brothers and sisters in Christ to keep hammering it in.

A very good point.

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Peter Ould
www.peter-ould.net

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Knopwood
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# 11596

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quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Ould:
This is a rather bizarre way of viewing the doctrine of Creation and Fall. Isn't it perfectly possible for someone to have a homosexual orientation which is "biological" but is part of the Fall?

Of course it's possible for homosexual orientation to be biological yet part of the Fall. It's what I believe, in fact. But if the orientation is part of the Fall, then how can we say that "God wants gay folk to stay Homosexual"?
Well, as one author I read on the subject put it, if this were the worst we had to say about it, in itself it would be no different from the wearing of clothes. I suspect that plenty of early Christians, not least St Paul, would have held _all_ sexual expression to be a part of the fall. Yet he allowed marriage as a state of life for those not gifted with the charism of celibate chastity because he recognized that not everyone was. Would that some of his followers could discern the same.

[ 18. April 2012, 16:32: Message edited by: LQ ]

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Horseman Bree
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# 5290

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Adding another, shorter article to the one beatmenace linked, may I offer "A Look at the Bible and Homosexuality" by Gordon Atkinson, aka the Real Live Preacher.
I'd be particularly interested in seeing reaction to the questions at the end.

I could add, from the same author "I Have No Title for This" , just for fun. I would prefer to take certain Christians to a cellar for the reasons given there than to beat up on gays.

--------------------
It's Not That Simple

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Ricardus
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# 8757

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quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Ould:
... Because ever so often God has a purpose through suffering? No-one ever said being a Christian meant that you have a perfect life.

Welcome to the Ship, Peter Ould. We have a saying around here: Suffering for one's beliefs makes one a martyr. Making other people suffer for one's beliefs makes one a prat. OliviaG
Possibly worth examining Peter Ould's sig, then ...

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Peter Ould
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# 482

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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Possibly worth examining Peter Ould's sig, then ...

Well that's going to start another rumpus...

--------------------
Peter Ould
www.peter-ould.net

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Peter Ould:
Because ever so often God has a purpose through suffering? No-one ever said being a Christian meant that you have a perfect life.

You mean I should divorce my wife and find a man I'm not attracted to to run off with because God has a purpose through the resulting suffering?

(Somebody did say once that being a Christian meant that you had life to the full, which is what 'perfect' means. But what did he know?)

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
It's always interesting how those claiming they're not implying a moral equivalence between homosexuality and pedophilia (or bestiality, or kleptomania, or . . . ) can never seem to find an analogy that doesn't involve some kind of predatory immorality or criminal behavior.

To be fair, they're trying to rebut an argument along the lines of 'If X is (natural/unavoidably part of creation/intentionally given by God) then it must be morally ok'.
To rebut it they do need to posit a counterexample that is generally agreed not to be morally ok - and since the category of things generally agreed not to be morally ok largely consists of things that are predatory and/or criminal they do need to use something predatory or criminal as their comparison. Left-handedness may not be predatory or criminal, but it's not generally agreed to be immoral either. But the fact that they're using something predatory as a counterexample doesn't mean that they're arguing homosexuality is predatory. They're arguing that it's immoral, but then we knew that.

Of course, having done that they've merely established that 'X is (natural/unavoidably part of creation)' isn't sufficient to prove that something is morally licit. They haven't done anything to show that there actually is a category of acts that aren't predatory but yet are categorically immoral.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Left-handedness may not be predatory or criminal, but it's not generally agreed to be immoral either.

Well, in some cultures it is, or has been, considered immoral or bad. The Latin for left is sinister. In some cultures you must eat with your right hand only. Etc etc.

You also don't have to go back very far at all to find children being forced to use their right hand instead of their left. My grandmother is ambidextrous (note: 'dextrous' comes from the Latin for 'right', so effectively it means that both of my grandmother's hands are right hands), and I think in her case it's quite likely that she would have been predominantly left-handed if not for the interventions carried out in her childhood to make her perform certain tasks with her right.

Oh yeah, it's also correlated with homosexuality apparently... [Big Grin]

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Ricardus
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# 8757

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quote:
Originally posted by Peter Ould:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Possibly worth examining Peter Ould's sig, then ...

Well that's going to start another rumpus...
Apologies, it was probably unfair to put you under the spotlight.

FWIW, I am a straight man who is liberal on the Gay Issue, and one question which I have never quite dared ask is:

If someone feels attracted to members of the same sex, but believes that homosexual acts are sinful, and therefore does not act on those feelings of attraction: why would they identify as gay or homosexual at all? Granted its axioms, wouldn't it be like saying "I'm a liar, but I never actually tell lies"?

The link in your sig does seem to address that question, so thanks.

[ 19. April 2012, 09:44: Message edited by: Ricardus ]

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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beatmenace
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# 16955

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Peter - many thanks for joining this discussion.

I'm sure you can give us another perspective we haven't really had so far.

Although its a Dead Horse and never truly resolves, hopefully we can finish up by understanding each others point of view more, and that can only be a good thing as I think we all want to avoid the shameful bigotry this topic can create.

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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)

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Matt Black

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# 2210

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Ricardus, Mrs B and I have a very close friend who would fall within your category. He is a Christian, with same-sex attraction/ orientation, and would self-describe as gay, but believes same-sex sexual acts (define!!!) to be sinful and therefore leads a celibate life. He would personally be loathe to shout such things from the rooftops as he regards the whole matter as deeply private and personal to him but, if pressed, would probably self-describe as 'gay but celibate'.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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