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Source: (consider it) Thread: Felbrigg Hall lanyards
lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
What do you have to say to CK's analysis of the volonteers' discomfort here?

This.

quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
LGBT people being treated as human beings isn't like not understanding Twitter or contactless cards - age is no excuse. It erases the experiences of older LGBT people and their struggles and suffering. I would be gentle with someone who can't work an ipad, but why should I be gentle with someone's unjustifiable prejudice against other human beings?

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:Indeed. From your perspective, in their capacity as subordinates, the volonteers are "less than equal". You objectified them. They are billboards (that's what you said, however much you try and walk away from it) and should just suck it up or leave and get over it.
Don't you get tired of this shtick? The point was that the lanyards were not a new concept. Indeed, one that volunteers in trusts, museums and such the world over are used to.
quote:

In other words, in your mind gay rights trump workers' rights, every time.

Gay rights are workers rights. They are human rights, both of them. Gay v. worker isn't what this is about.
quote:

If an initiative advances the cause of gay rights (as you suppose) there can be no admission of mistakes,

Inaccurate. Typical of your all or nothing responses, though.

quote:
And I find a major problem with your argument is that you are trying to make this about gay rights and nothing else.

You appear to be pretending it is libertarianism and and nothing else.


quote:

You have cast the volonteers' behaviour in the worst possible light by defining homophobia
as covering the range from slight discomfort to hate, thus allowing you to qualify their discomfort as homophobia,

That is the word we have. I asked for alternates, whatcha got?

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

Is that enough, or do you want to crush them like beetles beneath your heel as well? Because how we behave in victory is how we will be treated in defeat.

Did you fall from a window as well?
I don't want anyone crushed. What I would really have like is the NT to use the kerfuffle as an opportunity to teach. Instead we got "What am I like? Sorry"

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The reality is that the NT wants to expand their welcome to people beyond their usual constituency of middle-class heterosexual families a.

I suspect - perhaps wrongly - that working-class people are under-represented among visitors to NT properties and that the Trust actively wants to reach out to them. I also suspect that many heritage organisations, in their zeal to attract families by offering "child-friendly" displays and experiences, have unwittingly put off older (or, at least, unchilded) visitors who want a more "serious" approach.

But, while welcoming the current exhibitions being mounted by the Trust, I would like to ask if there is any evidence that gay people felt unwelcome at, or excluded from, their properties before. (As a straight man, I cannot comment from personal experience!)

[ 10. August 2017, 15:57: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Curiosity killed ...

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@lilBuddha - How do you know that the National Trust are not using this debacle as an opportunity to teach?

This whole campaign is about teaching how much of our heritage has been changed by LGBT+ people. Felbrigg Hall is still part of the Prejudice and Pride exploration of "themes of gender and sexuality" and the film is still being shown.

The volunteers who have objected at Felbrigg Hall have either chosen not to be on the rota through this 6 week period (that's in one of the Telegraph or Mail stories), have chosen to take back room duties or have been allowed to continue being guides without wearing a rainbow-coloured lanyard or badge. That last was the only concession that the National Trust made in this situation.

Good personnel management would also suggest that the people who objected will be discussing their difficulties when they are supervised / managed and maybe asked to undergo some training on inclusion, which would also be an educational opportunity. But that sort of personnel management would be kept private.

[ 10. August 2017, 16:26: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I suspect - perhaps wrongly - that working-class people are under-represented among visitors to NT properties and that the Trust actively wants to reach out to them.

I don't think you are wrong to suspect this and I'm sure that the NT does want to reach out to them.

quote:
I also suspect that many heritage organisations, in their zeal to attract families by offering "child-friendly" displays and experiences, have unwittingly put off older (or, at least, unchilded) visitors who want a more "serious" approach.
Possibly - but here's the thing: there are hundreds of NT properties, and by far the majority are variations on a single theme: a large house owned by an upper crust aristocratic family with extensive formal gardens and/or deer parks. If one wants to go to a NT property to see the "serious" approach with lots of gilded furniture, paintings, ceilings and other bling, there are plenty to choose from.

If, on the other hand, you want to see something that reflects a different aspect of British life - from the Workhouse to the back-to-back to the cotton mill etc - then there aren't many to choose from in the catalogue. There are some, just not many.

If, on the other other hand you want to see black history or gay history or punk history or whateverelse history then you're not going to see it in the vast majority of NT properties. Not because it isn't there, but because the bloody volunteers want to pretend it isn't there.

How exactly is that fair?

quote:
But, while welcoming the current exhibitions being mounted by the Trust, I would like to ask if there is any evidence that gay people felt unwelcome at, or excluded from, their properties before. (As a straight man, I cannot comment from personal experience!)
It would be amazingly unlikely if gay people didn't feel unwelcomed because the sanitised and whitewashed history presented by the NT until very recently conveniently didn't portray much beyond the weirdness of scatter-minded aristocracy.

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mr cheesy
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And it isn't just the NT, it is a feature of middle class Englishness to want to blot out "nastiness" in the history of buildings.

Until very recently, highly gilded churches and public buildings in Bristol did not want to acknowledge that the gold was paid, at least in part, from the profits the Merchant Venturers made from slavery.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I don't want anyone crushed. What I would really have like is the NT to use the kerfuffle as an opportunity to teach. Instead we got "What am I like? Sorry"

Well, that's not how you're coming across. And you're misrepresenting the NT's concession.

All the refuseniks got was "you don't have to wear a rainbow lanyard if you don't want to". Everything else - literally everything - is as originally planned. Those that do turn up for duty, while they won't have someone following them, ringing a bell and shouting "shame! Shame!" behind them, will know that virtually all their colleagues either enthusiastically or tacitly agreed with the NT's approach. I would have thought that quite enough of a 'teaching opportunity', right there.

Clearly you don't think so.

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Get your arse to Mars

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
There are hundreds of NT properties, and by far the majority are variations on a single theme: a large house owned by an upper crust aristocratic family with extensive formal gardens and/or deer parks. ...

If, on the other hand, you want to see something that reflects a different aspect of British life - from the Workhouse to the back-to-back to the cotton mill etc - then there aren't many to choose from in the catalogue.

Well, that's as much to do with the way that the Trust was set up, and the Government telling property owners that they leave their properties to the NT and avoid death duties, as anything else. I suspect the NT would love to diversify its portfolio - though, I grant you, people seem to love seeing the "olde" and picturesque" (and gawp at "life above stairs").

quote:
If, on the other other hand you want to see black history or gay history or punk history or whateverelse history then you're not going to see it in the vast majority of NT properties. Not because it isn't there, but because the bloody volunteers want to pretend it isn't there.
Surely any pretence (if it indeed exists) comes from the Trust itself, not the volunteers?

quote:
It would be amazingly unlikely if gay people didn't feel unwelcomed because the sanitised and whitewashed history presented by the NT until very recently conveniently didn't portray much beyond the weirdness of scatter-minded aristocracy.
Fair comment, but I think you may be muddling two aspects of social history there: class and sexuality.
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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Until very recently, highly gilded churches and public buildings in Bristol did not want to acknowledge that the gold was paid, at least in part, from the profits the Merchant Venturers made from slavery.

Though I went to the old Bristol Industrial Museum about 15 years ago, and the slaver heritage was given a very high profile.
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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Until very recently, highly gilded churches and public buildings in Bristol did not want to acknowledge that the gold was paid, at least in part, from the profits the Merchant Venturers made from slavery.

Though I went to the old Bristol Industrial Museum about 15 years ago, and the slaver heritage was given a very high profile.
I had an interesting discussion with someone in Mary Redcliffe about 20 years ago because slavery wasn't mentioned there at all. Even now you have to dig very deep in their website to see any mention of it.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Fair comment, but I think you may be muddling two aspects of social history there: class and sexuality.

Not really: there is a more complex history in all NT properties than the most obvious story about privilege.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
What do you have to say to CK's analysis of the volonteers' discomfort here?

This.


Then you haven't listened properly to what CK had to say. Discomfort can be down to poor organisational management just as much as to homophobia.
quote:
Don't you get tired of this shtick? The point was that the lanyards were not a new concept. Indeed, one that volunteers in trusts, museums and such the world over are used to.

Divert, divert, divert. The issue is that your attidude, and especially that statement "volunteers are billboards" (not "sometimes...", and not "in some ways..."), comnveyed that because they were volunteers they were less than those campaigning for LGBT rights, which trump everything else. Especially if they opted not to wear them.
quote:
Gay rights are workers rights
Your redefinition of language never ceases to amaze me. They clearly aren't the same thing, and sometimes they might conflict¹.
quote:
They are human rights, both of them.
Yes, but the fact that they are elements in the same set does not make them identical.
quote:
Gay v. worker isn't what this is about.
No, it's about a whole load of overlapping and sometimes conflicting interests, including but not limited to:

- volunteer management
- LGBT rights
- history, its erasure and its interpretation
- power relations in organisations
- change management
- etc.

Living in society, or within an organisation, is about managing all these and other issues - not just rights. This is achieved not through militant activism but through compromise and truces². That does not mean there is no place for activism. But there needs to be more than just activism. There needs to be room for dialogue and compromise.
quote:

quote:
If an initiative advances the cause of gay rights (as you suppose) there can be no admission of mistakes,

Inaccurate. Typical of your all or nothing responses, though.
It's typical of your position on this thread. In fact can't find anyone with a more absolutist view than you. I can't see anywhere to date on this thread that you've got anywhere near conceding anything. Can you? Your position is that the rainbow campaign was appropriate and justifiable, there were no reasonable grounds for dissent, and all opposers are ipso facto homophobes. If that's not all or nothing I don't know what is. Am I misrepresenting you there? If so, show me.

It's you who are taking an all or nothing approach by saying that this is about gay rights and nothing else.

quote:
That is the word we have. I asked for alternates, whatcha got?
I'm not casting around for alternates, I'm suggesting a) that you narrow your ridiculously broad scope of meaning for "homophobe" b) that you accept that their could be reasons for discomfort in this situation that no impartial bystander would deem to constitute homophobia.


==
¹ To give an example from a field familiar to me, and return to Doc Tor's "truce" concept: smoking in public buildings is prohibited in France. Prisons are public buildings - but prisoners have the right to smoke in their cells. An accommodation has been reached between two apparently irreconcilable positions, and for good reason. It's not perfect, but it works. (In the UK, smoking has recently been banned throughout prisons and I am told that the current phase of jail unrest there is due in no small part to this).

² I recently completed reviewing the diversity handbook for a major multinational in my capacity as both translator and Christian leader involved in multifaith issues. The handbook (written by a consultancy founded by someone YouTube tells me is a militant atheist, but a very nice man especially because he paid on time) leaves me in no doubt that your attitude to rights in all their diversity would be entirely useless, if not downright destructive, in an organisational context.

[ 10. August 2017, 18:12: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
@lilBuddha - How do you know that the National Trust are not using this debacle as an opportunity to teach?

The NT had a national platform to talk about why these sort of campaigns are important. They didn't grasp it.
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I don't want anyone crushed. What I would really have like is the NT to use the kerfuffle as an opportunity to teach. Instead we got "What am I like? Sorry"

Well, that's not how you're coming across.
As I've mentioned more than once on the Ship, I've a tendency to post in way that could be considered terse. I need to work on this. Part of it, honestly, is reactionary as well. Also my fault. I shouldn't let anger or annoyance affect how I post.

quote:

And you're misrepresenting the NT's concession.

All the refuseniks got was "you don't have to wear a rainbow lanyard if you don't want to". Everything else - literally everything - is as originally planned. Those that do turn up for duty, while they won't have someone following them, ringing a bell and shouting "shame! Shame!" behind them, will know that virtually all their colleagues either enthusiastically or tacitly agreed with the NT's approach. I would have thought that quite enough of a 'teaching opportunity', right there.

One, I don't think they will be shamed. The volunteers will likely fill all the range from complete acceptance to complete lack of acceptance. And most of them are in the same peer group. So, IMO, there will be more sympathy than antipathy on site.
Second, but more importantly; I don't want anyone crushed or shamed. I am arguing about how much accommodation there should be.
I don't think the original position of wear the lanyard or work behind the scenes for the duration is an outrageous position.
BTW, the reaction of the volunteers really denigrates those behind the scenes workers.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I don't think the original position of wear the lanyard or work behind the scenes for the duration is an outrageous position.

It's not outrageous if it's reached as a reasoned compromise. It is outrageous if it was presented as an ultimatum, or amid much rolling of eyes and sighing.

The fog of media and feelings running high makes it impossible to know exactly how this position was arrived at, but the fact the NT backtracked does suggest it was not reached by reasoned compromise in the first instance.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I don't think the original position of wear the lanyard or work behind the scenes for the duration is an outrageous position.

It's not outrageous if it's reached as a reasoned compromise. It is outrageous if it was presented as an ultimatum, or amid much rolling of eyes and sighing.

The fog of media and feelings running high makes it impossible to know exactly how this position was arrived at, but the fact the NT backtracked does suggest it was not reached by reasoned compromise in the first instance.

That the NT backtrack could as easily be about fear of negative publicity.
For the record, I don't think the NT consulted the volunteers for the campaign.
The the research coordinated nicely as part of the Pride campaign. Things were discussed, as per usual, and a plan was made. The decision was then announced to the volunteers in general. Just like every other campaign or exhibition.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Eutychus
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It's not like any other campaign or exhibition if you ask everyone involved to wear a symbol of gay pride, an issue previously unconnected with this heritage.

[ 10. August 2017, 19:41: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
BTW, the reaction of the volunteers really denigrates those behind the scenes workers.

Try working in amateur dramatics, dahrling. The stage roles are literally the only ones that matter. You could do a Michaelangelo-quality stage painting, and it'd still be about who plays Lady Bracknell.

Or a church, for that matter. No one gets the slightest bit upset when I snap on the marigolds and do an extra stint on the coffee rota, but get asked to do a quick turn in the drama group and it's all "why did you get asked and not me?" (literally last week, said to my face. They did apologise, later)

The older I get, the more enamoured I become to the doctrine of Original Sin. We have to work with that. Compromise, even with our enemies (and acknowledging we do have enemies, sometimes through the mere fact of existing), is sometimes necessary. The Felbrigg refuseniks have comprehensively lost. Granting them one concession isn't going to change that.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It's not like any other campaign or exhibition if you ask everyone involved to wear a symbol of gay pride, an issue previously unconnected with this heritage.

The flag is also associated with events discussing homosexuality. No one think a Starbuck's shop is gay because it has a rainbow flag. Just like they do not think their barrista John really loves an Iced Shaken Mango Black Tea Lemonade because he is wearing a button that says he does.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Curiosity killed ...

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Try working in amateur dramatics, dahrling. The stage roles are literally the only ones that matter. You could do a Michaelangelo-quality stage painting, and it'd still be about who plays Lady Bracknell.

[Two face] It does rather depend on what you do behind the scenes in amateur dramatics.

The last time I was involved in the local AmDram panto I not only made quite a few of the children's costumes but spent the run in the scout hut out the back of the village hall, minding the children and getting them back stage on cue. This was slightly complicated by this being a run of Robin Hood with Babes in the Wood, so two of the principals were back with me.

The night I had off the other mothers in the hut continued with their gossip and chit chat whilst minding the kids, not realising the reason why I'd been sitting in the corner reading was that I was listening into the feed from the stage and reading the script. Apparently it did not go well and I was welcomed back with open arms by absolutely everyone the next night.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No one think a Starbuck's shop is gay because it has a rainbow flag.

We've been here before.

You can't simultaneously argue that the nobody will think an organisation is denoting support for LGBT rights because it sports a rainbow flag and that not sporting a rainbow flag is homophobic. Well you can, but...

The rainbow flag at Felbrigg was there because of new gay history, not because they were trying to mimic Starbucks.

quote:
Just like they do not think their barrista John really loves an Iced Shaken Mango Black Tea Lemonade because he is wearing a button that says he does.
That is because an Iced Shaken Black Tea Lemonade is trivial and not, probably, wrapped up in all the rights and identity and politics issues the rainbow flag flown in association with LGBT issues is, and that's what makes it different. It comes with contemporary baggage.

Several people have argued on the basis of historic symbols for slavery or whatever. Twice now I've put forward a Black Lives Matter T-shirt as a similarly charged symbol today and nobody's discussed it.

I think a better strategy for the lanyards would have been an opt-in policy.

Meanwhile, perhaps the NT could learn something from Invictus. Yes there's an ultimatum, but what a way to win over uncomfortable staff. No requirement to wear an ANC lanyard either (and if you know the film, you'll know the next scens shows just how uncomfortable some of the black staff felt.

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
It does rather depend on what you do behind the scenes in amateur dramatics.

I think Doc Tor has nailed the really core issue dividing us all here. I worked as backstage crew for years at school, and my dream job was to become stage manager for the school panto (I can't remember whether I eventually ascended higher than simply being manager stage right).

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
BTW, the reaction of the volunteers really denigrates those behind the scenes workers.

Try working in amateur dramatics, dahrling. The stage roles are literally the only ones that matter. You could do a Michaelangelo-quality stage painting, and it'd still be about who plays Lady Bracknell.
I am more than familiar with this. But one's "Olivier winning performance" won't be seen if the lighting tech doesn't show up.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No one think a Starbuck's shop is gay because it has a rainbow flag.

What would that mean? It likes other coffee shops? It doesn't get turned on by the greengrocer's shop?

The natural conclusion to draw from Starbucks flying a rainbow flag is that Starbucks supports gay rights in general, and probably whatever aspect of gay rights is currently under political discussion in particular.


quote:

Just like they do not think their barrista John really loves an Iced Shaken Mango Black Tea Lemonade because he is wearing a button that says he does.

Actually, I would think that. For John to wear an I heart Iced Shaken Mango Black Tea Lemonade badge when he thinks it's a ghastly sugary concoction would be dishonest.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

You can't simultaneously argue that the nobody will think an organisation is denoting support for LGBT rights because it sports a rainbow flag and that not sporting a rainbow flag is homophobic.

That isn't even close to what I was saying. The point I was making that you are missing is the separation between the organisation and its workers. No one assumes every worker supports every thing an organisation does.


Well you can, but...

The rainbow flag at Felbrigg was there because of new gay history, not because they were trying to mimic Starbucks.

quote:
Just like they do not think their barrista John really loves an Iced Shaken Mango Black Tea Lemonade because he is wearing a button that says he does.
That is because an Iced Shaken Black Tea Lemonade is trivial and not, probably, wrapped up in all the rights and identity and politics issues the rainbow flag flown in association with LGBT issues is, and that's what makes it different. It comes with contemporary baggage.

[ 10. August 2017, 20:39: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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lilBuddha
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Apologies. I screwed up the post and the edit. everything after

No one assumes every worker supports every thing an organisation does.

Isn't supposed to be part of the post.

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stonespring
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Has someone on this thread mentioned that most other movements for rights for historically marginalized groups do not have symbols as universally recognized as the LGBT+ rights symbols?

Rights for people of African heritage (and their history in general) can be represented by the pan-African flag colors of red, black, and green, but many people wouldn't necessarily recognize them. The "venus" symbol might work to represent women's rights and history, but although people are familiar with it as a symbol for women, people are less familiar with it as a symbol for women's rights (indeed, when I have seen it as a feminist symbol, it has usually had a fist added inside it).

Employees are used to being asked to participate in all kinds of campaigns to raise awareness of/raise funds to fight diseases like breast cancer (and the pink tsunami associated with it), but aside from LGBT+ rights, I cannot think of any other "color campaigns" associated with rights movements that have widely seeped into corporate and nonprofit culture.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No one assumes every worker supports every thing an organisation does.

Granted. But I think it is poor management to coerce employees into wearing anything unrelated to its normal mission, much worse management to coerce them into wearing something that stands for advocacy for a distinct cause*, and even worse management to do so for volunteers.

And I hold this to be true however worthy I believe the cause to be, and in fact doubly so if I do think it's a worthy cause.

==
* Even if they are broadly sympathetic to it, they may not wish to be cast as advocates for it, still less without having reached that decision independently.

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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
The "venus" symbol might work to represent women's rights and history, but although people are familiar with it as a symbol for women, people are less familiar with it as a symbol for women's rights (indeed, when I have seen it as a feminist symbol, it has usually had a fist added inside it).

That's an interesting example. I wonder how women visiting Emily Pankhurst's home would feel about being greeted by guys wearing that as a lapel button*?
quote:
aside from LGBT+ rights, I cannot think of any other "color campaigns" associated with rights movements that have widely seeped into corporate and nonprofit culture.
I think that's one of the things that makes it a) so contentious b) hard to find good equivalent examples.

==

*Perhaps a lapel pin based on Brenda's Iron Ovary (Second Class) award?

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:

Employees are used to being asked to participate in all kinds of campaigns to raise awareness of/raise funds to fight diseases like breast cancer (and the pink tsunami associated with it), but aside from LGBT+ rights, I cannot think of any other "color campaigns" associated with rights movements that have widely seeped into corporate and nonprofit culture.

Because cancer and homosexuality don't respect racial or class boundaries. Your son won't wake up you up to tell you he is black and your wife won't come back from the doctor having found out she is African.

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:


The natural conclusion to draw from Starbucks flying a rainbow flag is that Starbucks supports gay rights in general, and probably whatever aspect of gay rights is currently under political discussion in particular.

I don't think this follows. Why would I care what Starbucks thinks about marriage equality?

The simplest explanation for having a rainbow flag is that the coffee shop in question is trying to signal that people from a particular minority of the population are welcome because they want to sell them expensive coffee. They're waving and saying "hi guys, please come in here and buy coffee, it's very nice and we're not going to let anyone hassle you".

I think it is actually quite easy as a capitalist business to separate any support for politics and rights causes from seeing particular communities as potential markets.

One can be a raving homophobe and simply put up the flag to sell gays coffee. Why not?

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
That's an interesting example. I wonder how women visiting Emily Pankhurst's home would feel about being greeted by guys wearing that as a lapel button*?

If I ever went to the Pankhurst residence, I'd hope any male volunteers were wearing this badge.

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It would astound me if an employer compelled its employees to wear a cancer awareness ribbon symbol or similar. Once again, those campaigns are powerful to the extent that they are opt-in.

And start losing their lustre real fast (for me at least) once you get despised for not opting in (cf poppies).

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'd hope any male volunteers were wearing this badge.

If I were wearing that I'd be on the lookout for angry feminists accusing me of doing the equivalent of Rachel Dolezal.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
If I were wearing that I'd be on the lookout for angry feminists accusing me of doing the equivalent of Rachel Dolezal.

I can't see why, you're not claiming to be a woman by wearing this badge, you are honoring the bulldog spirit of the Pankhurst women to get the suffrage.

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mr cheesy
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In fact that's a strange idea all over. Am I claiming to be gay by wearing a rainbow flag?

Can't I be celebrating that gay people exist? Honoring those that fought for rights?

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I'm only half-serious. But still... upthread you mentioned the idea of volunteers sporting a Black Panthers symbol. Again, not sure how that would go down if you are white.

For the rainbow symbol, the issues for me are a little different, but I think these few examples further highlight that it's not as straightforward as some have suggested.

[ 10. August 2017, 21:42: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm only half-serious. But still... upthread you mentioned the idea of volunteers sporting a Black Panthers symbol. Again, not sure how that would go down if you are white.

I don't understand - the Black Lives Matter t-shirts often have the black panther salute in the middle of them. White people wear them. Why wouldn't they?

quote:
For the rainbow symbol, the issues for me are a little different, but I think these few examples further highlight that it's not as straightforward as some have suggested.
Black Lives Matter seems pretty straightforward to me.

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I don't understand - the Black Lives Matter t-shirts often have the black panther salute in the middle of them. White people wear them. Why wouldn't they?

Cultural appropriation?
quote:
the imitator, "who does not experience that oppression is able to 'play', temporarily, an 'exotic' other, without experiencing any of the daily discriminations faced by other cultures."
In my experience treading the line between support and appropriation is not easy.

I can immerse myself in Manouche (French Traveller group) culture well enough to be assimilated. They can genuinely forget I'm a gadjo.

I have however learned to temper the satisfaction I feel at being able to achieve this with the awareness that I can opt out any time it suits me to do so - in other words, assert my privilege. When I do, I can see the look of confusion on the faces of my Manouche friends.

I can be "all things to all men", but only up to a point, for by the grace of God, I am who I am and need to come to terms with that too (what poor Rachel Dolezal obviously can't manage to do).
quote:
Black Lives Matter seems pretty straightforward to me.
Not to me. I could imagine myself (just about) donning a BLM T-shirt to offer my considered, personal support to an event or demonstration (much more qualms if it had a Black Panther logo on it). But I would definitely feel "uncomfortable" about being coopted into wearing it to support an exhibition in a tangentially related site and being made to feel a racist if I didn't.

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

Just like they do not think their barrista John really loves an Iced Shaken Mango Black Tea Lemonade because he is wearing a button that says he does.

Or a hand-pressed pomegranate lemonade for that matter.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I don't understand - the Black Lives Matter t-shirts often have the black panther salute in the middle of them. White people wear them. Why wouldn't they?

Cultural appropriation?
Black Lives Matter arose from the black community, but has always included white people. A white person wearing a Black Lives Matter shirt is much more likely to be hassled by white people than black. A white person wearing one isn't appropriation, but support.

The raised fist is a black power symbol, not a Black Panther salute. Though they have used it. Walk around with thislLogo on your shirt, some might have an issue. Or the black power fist by itself. However, in context of BLM, not so much.


LGBT+ material is pretty inclusive, in general.

quote:
But I would definitely feel "uncomfortable" about being coopted into wearing it to support an exhibition in a tangentially related site and being made to feel a racist if I didn't.

With the understanding that BLM isn't a black power movement, would you still feel uncomfortable?

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quote:
a tangentially related site
Felbrigg Hall isn't 'tangentially related'. Its last owner who left it to the Trust was gay. It's quite normal and unexceptional to have exhibitions or projects about particular owners of stately homes. I don't have time for a detailed post but this is what annoys me. People keep claiming it's about a lanyard and then simply can't help themselves wanting to denigrate or dismiss the significance and relevance of the history.

If it's about a lanyard then please stop continually swiping at the validity/relevance of LGBT history at this site. I heard the spokesman for rejecting this campaign on the radio explicitly advocating the continued erasure of gay history at this venue and so far there's not a single cheep from any of the other refuseniks to contradict his sentiments, just a lot of ingenious conjecture by various shipmates as to how this might not be about what was explicitly stated into my lugs by the man himself on the radio who was speaking for the others.

How would I feel about encouraging Gay or Lesbian friends to visit this venue for the history? I'll tell you. Worried. Worried that I would be letting my pals who have enough anti-gay prejudice to deal with in their everyday lives in for another dollop of prejudice by recommending it. Do people here think that LGBT people don't have enough prejudice to cope with in their lives without not being able to do a simple thing like visit a historic house without wondering if they're going to get some more?

When my gay friends can't enjoy the same simple pleasures that I do without having to worry about homophobic attitudes from the people who are supposed to be the customer service, then something is wrong.

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Louise
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Also to add if a business or visitor attraction is sporting the rainbow symbol, I'd take it in that context to mean 'You should expect our customer service to come without anti-gay attitudes as an extra and to be made welcome'. I don't think I'd expect it to mean anything more in that context.

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It would astound me if an employer compelled its employees to wear a cancer awareness ribbon symbol or similar.

I'm almost sure that here in the states I have been a customer at places where all employees had pink ribbons or buttons or t-shirts or bracelets for breast cancer awareness (or more specifically, to demonstrate their company's support for Susan G. Komen Race for the Cure). It is often done to encourage customers to donate or to buy pink products where parts of the proceeds go to Race for the Cure.
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During breast cancer awareness season whole NFL teams wear pink articles (socks, shoes, towels, jerseys, etc) in support.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
A white person wearing a Black Lives Matter shirt is much more likely to be hassled by white people than black.

Which is why it's important it's their own decision to do so.

quote:
With the understanding that BLM isn't a black power movement, would you still feel uncomfortable?

I would if I felt I really didn't get a free choice in the matter, yes. Like I said, to me it's not about the worthiness of a cause, it's about individuals' freedom to become a visible advocate for it.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
quote:
a tangentially related site
Felbrigg Hall isn't 'tangentially related'. Its last owner who left it to the Trust was gay.
I'm sorry, I wasn't happy with that word when I posted it.

Firstly and most importantly here, as CK says it is newly related. That makes a difference, and it especially calls for a greater degree of accommodation of expectations (tolerance in the sense referred to by Doc Tor) than a site better-known for its gay past.

Secondly, even if the owner was gay and even if (as one gay person has argued here) the site's aesthetic value was enhanced by this being repressed, it is not and probably never will be associated with the history of the gay rights movement in the way, say, the Edmund Pettus Bridge is with the civil rights movement (in more ways than one, as I suddenly learn who it was named after!).

To this extent I think that having an exhibition on site that addresses the issue of the owner's homosexuality and relates to the wider topic of how minority sexual orientations were experienced at the time is entirely legitimate - but that making it a symbol for gay rights as a cause is not.

(As I said earlier, I wouldn't expect to be welcomed at every site relating to a black person by someone sporting a BLM T-shirt unless, as a minimum, their race was bound up with the history of the site, or more legitimately, the site epitomised the issues at the core of BLM today.)

quote:
People keep claiming it's about a lanyard and then simply can't help themselves wanting to denigrate or dismiss the significance and relevance of the history.
It's about being compelled to wear a lanyard that associates the wearer with a contemporary advocacy cause that is neither the focus of the organisation they are there for nor embodied in the history of the site, especially if the history is not as they had understood it until recently.

quote:
I heard the spokesman for rejecting this campaign on the radio explicitly advocating the continued erasure of gay history at this venue
I didn't, but I'm sure he didn't put it that way!
quote:
and so far there's not a single cheep from any of the other refuseniks to contradict his sentiments
That doesn't necessarily mean they don't feel differently, just that more nuanced and conciliatory statements don't make soundbites or sell copies of the Daily Mail.

I respect your struggle to combat erasure but if people expressing discomfort in the face of suddenly shifting history get met with nothing more than cries of "homophobe!", there's not much room for dialogue.

quote:
When my gay friends can't enjoy the same simple pleasures that I do without having to worry about homophobic attitudes from the people who are supposed to be the customer service, then something is wrong.
Yes it is, but I'm not sure mandatory lanyard-wearing would solve that and that is yet another part of the problem. Putting a rainbow lanyard round my neck does not cure me of homophobia, any more than sporting a pink ribbon means I have really grasped the issues surrounding breast cancer (especially if I'm a man).

It's in danger of emptying the symbol of its power. I'm sure we could all tell stories of our customer experience at the hands of staff sporting badges saying "happy to help"...
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
Also to add if a business or visitor attraction is sporting the rainbow symbol, I'd take it in that context to mean 'You should expect our customer service to come without anti-gay attitudes as an extra and to be made welcome'. I don't think I'd expect it to mean anything more in that context.

Once again, though, that is clearly not what the NT are trying to make the rainbow mean (whatever their website says). If they did and meant it they'd stick a rainbow flag at the front of every one of their properties as an expression of their corporate values.

But no, it's part of their campaign, Prejudice and Pride. That's a clever play on words, but it incontrovertibly denotes their use of rainbow symbol as pertaining to LGBT rights advocacy. As such it should have been opt-in from the start.

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
During breast cancer awareness season whole NFL teams wear pink articles (socks, shoes, towels, jerseys, etc) in support.

As discussed upthread, I think there is a genuine pond difference here in terms of the law on what employers can compel employees to wear and do and cultural expectations in that respect.

Either way, I have to say that as far as I'm concerned, unless there is an event that concerns an entire sports team (such as a death of a player) I personally feel the authentic power of the symbol is diluted by it being obvious that nobody in the team has really had a choice in whether to wear it or not.

In fact I've just remembered I argued the case against the England football team wearing poppies in a FIFA game for not dissimilar reaons.

[ 11. August 2017, 05:59: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by lilBuddha:
[qb]A white person wearing a Black Lives Matter shirt is much more likely to be hassled by white people than black.

Which is why it's important it's their own decision to do so.

If an institution is doing a programme on BLM, no one is likely to be bothered at all for wearing BLM materials.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Once again, though, that is clearly not what the NT are trying to make the rainbow mean (whatever their website says). If they did and meant it they'd stick a rainbow flag at the front of every one of their properties as an expression of their corporate values.

But no, it's part of their campaign, Prejudice and Pride. That's a clever play on words, but it incontrovertibly denotes their use of rainbow symbol as pertaining to LGBT rights advocacy. As such it should have been opt-in from the start.

Nope, as shown that (a) isn't how the flag is used (b) that isn't how the NT said they were using the flag and (c) as we've heard, that isn't how the minority in question take the use of the flag.

In fact that's a big steaming pile of nothing.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If an institution is doing a programme on BLM, no one is likely to be bothered at all for wearing BLM materials.

But it is not going to be relevant unless the site of the programme is related, directly, to that cause. Can you imagine a US employer asking all its employees to wear BLM t-shirts for a race awareness day? Would you think that's a legitimate way of raising awareness of the cause? Could you imagine some employees feeling uncomfortable about it for reasons other than racism?

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Putting a rainbow lanyard round my neck does not cure me of homophobia, any more than sporting a pink ribbon means I have really grasped the issues surrounding breast cancer (especially if I'm a man).

I've been very much with Eutychus on this post. One suggestion though is that asking (not compelling) people to wear the lanyards or badges relating to the exhibition (and suggesting that they think through their responses to the request) could be a way of gently provoking them to start examining their attitudes - although one would hope that the exhibition itself would do that anyway.
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
In fact that's a big steaming pile of nothing.

Is the NT's use of the flag supposed to denote their general acceptance of LGBTQ persons and their willingness to ensure they feel welcome along with everybody else at all their properties, or to draw attention to LGBTQ issues on tha basis of the history of particular sites in their portfolio?

It can't be both.

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Posts: 16985 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Putting a rainbow lanyard round my neck does not cure me of homophobia, any more than sporting a pink ribbon means I have really grasped the issues surrounding breast cancer (especially if I'm a man).

Bad example, men are affected by breast cancer when their wives, mothers and daughters are affected and also, men get breast cancer too - 350 a year in the UK and 2600 in the USA. The prognosis is OK if diagnosed early enough, but there is the rub, because men don't believe they can get breast cancer. You've just demonstrated that attitude.

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Posts: 13479 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged



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