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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: UK Christianity's greatest success story
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Good News .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
The Church of England still being vaguely viable in the 21st Century.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
I nominate the British choral foundations. They are the envy of the rest of liturgical Christendom. The number of American choirs that even approach their standard can be counted on the fingers of one hand. That they continue to do such beautiful work-- if anything, improved over the past fifty years-- given various mounting challenges financial, biological, and cultural, is miraculous.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Drewthealexander:
The Independent on Sunday opined that the Alpha Couse was worthy of this description.
What would be yours?
So a smug and often disingenuous course of apologetics based on a transparent bait-and-switch is the best thing Christianity has done in the UK?
No wonder the church is so fucked.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Tolerance and diversity (not as much irony as you think there...)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
The Christians up and down the uk who are making a real difference to the lives of others where they live and/or work.
God help us all if the smug middle class lifestyle sessions of the Alpha course are the greatest success story - thank God it ain't so IME.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Christians doing nice, kind things up and down the country isn't really news, though, is it? Or rather, they need to be doing nice, kind things in a distinctive way that has a measurable, widespread influence.
Alpha is a programme with a measurable, widespread influence. It's used in churches of all kinds. It has a high level of brand awareness. The fact that it has such vocal detractors, both inside and outside the church, is another sign that it's too important to be ignored. There's even been a novel written about it!
Anyway, the ongoing creativity of British Christian songwriting is surely something to be proud of. And maybe one could add the Street Pastors initiative, or Fresh Expressions. But these are projects yet to approach their full potential.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
It was smug middle and upper class Christians who brought about things such as the abolition of slavery and improved prisoner welfare.
If Christians aren't even prepared to celebrate people coming to Christ , from whatever social background , then we don't have to look very hard to see one reason as to why the Church is fucked.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
That reminds me:
the Fair Trade and trade justice movements, both with a strong core of Christian involvement. Jubilee 2000 and Make Poverty History have had tangible impacts on UK development policy.
[ 04. April 2013, 13:48: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Greatest successes of Christianity in UK in the early twenty first century, well I check Peter Brierly for figures see this document.
His figures suggests that Smaller denominations (36%), Pentecostal (27%) and New Churches (12% : I suspect higher but these are very difficult to count) are doing the well. Now these increases are on a relatively small base, but we are entering a world where the main form of church is not the older denominations but a rather more free/entrepreneurial approach favoured by these groups.
In which case I suspect these boards are not the right place to ask about the greatest success question. Our blinkers are on and we are largely not seeing the growth.
The biggest success however will be the way the Church survives this change.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
If Christians aren't even prepared to celebrate people coming to Christ , from whatever social background , then we don't have to look very hard to see one reason as to why the Church is fucked.
If Christians can't convince people to join their religion without a long course of dishonest apologetics, falsely advertised as an opportunity to ask questions, the church's fuckedness is pretty obvious anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Alpha is a programme with a measurable, widespread influence. It's used in churches of all kinds. It has a high level of brand awareness. The fact that it has such vocal detractors, both inside and outside the church, is another sign that it's too important to be ignored. There's even been a novel written about it!
Ah yes, too important to be ignored, like a Roman emperor. As Jesus said:
quote:
Blessed are those who have a high level of brand awareness, for theirs is the Kingdom of God.
Blessed are those who have vocal detractors, for there is only one thing worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about.
I always had an idea that Christianity stood for something more than marketing strategies, buzzwords and the ends justifying the means. Still, what do I know?
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
And I always thought it was about coming to Christ not 'joining a religion'. Silly me.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
Relationship, rules.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Relationship, rules.
But people do seem very keen on the latter. Like I have to believe in a Virgin Birth. I must believe in a physical literal resurrection. Those seem like rules to me. They seem like things to sign up to when joining a religion to me. If it's about the former, then why the huffiness about orthodoxy?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
The relationship is paramount. But any relationship has rules in order to properly function eg: I'm married to Mrs Black, but if I beat her up everyday, that's not much of a relationship (at least not for her); hence, stemming from the fact of my relationship with her, there's a rule that I don't beat her up.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
That's not the sort of rule I'm talking about, though, is it? It's something you choose not to do because doing so would negate the concept of there being a relationship.
Many of the "rules" Christians seek to impose on one another seem nothing of the kind. Rules about what we must believe, for example.
On the face of it it seems like you're comparing doubting the virgin birth with wife-beating. I'd be a bit careful on that one, if I were you. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 04. April 2013, 14:45: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
You have a point. The added complication with a non-material/ non-corporeal relationship is that one has to have an idea of the other person involved outwith that provided by our usual senses. So, yes, I agree that there are certain rules that pertain to Christianity that have nothing to do with the quality of the relationship but rather with it's object. But I would classify these rules as primarily descriptive (Virgin Birth) as opposed to proscriptive (no wife-beating).
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
The Media not only being interested in main religious news items eg. choosing of the Pope and the Installation of the Archbishop of Canterbury, but also devoting hours of column inches and airtime to these items.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
I always had an idea that Christianity stood for something more than marketing strategies, buzzwords and the ends justifying the means. Still, what do I know?
Firstly, I take it as read that for Christians, Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and his is the example we should follow. That's true for 'UK Christianity', and all other national forms of Christianity, at all points in history. We all know that, so I surely don't have to spell that out! However, the article in the Indy was trying to highlight a contemporary aspect of British Christianity that in some way was newsworthy (since the Indy is a newspaper) as well as successful, by a certain set of criteria.
I don't think you have to approve of the Alpha course to recognise its - partial - success as a famous and programmatic form of Christian evangelism that's travelled from Britain and around the world. That's simply a matter of fact. What we might think of the form, the content and the globalisation of Alpha is another matter entirely. I have my own reservations about Alpha, although they're probably not exactly the same as yours.
[ 04. April 2013, 18:04: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't think you have to approve of the Alpha course to recognise its - partial - success as a famous and programmatic form of Christian evangelism that's travelled from Britain and around the world. That's simply a matter of fact. What we might think of the form, the content and the globalisation of Alpha is another matter entirely. I have my own reservations about Alpha, although they're probably not exactly the same as yours.
The fact that Alpha achieves what it sets out to achieve does not make it "UK Christianity's Greatest Success", which is what the OP referenced. It may be Nicky Gumboil's success story, or HTB's; but as others have said, that doesn't mean it's necessarily what Jesus had in mind.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
That the Christian faith, which seems to have disappeared in what's now England after the Anglo-Saxon invasions, survived the Danish ones and prospered under Alfred and thereafter?
Or the evangelism of large areas of Africa and elsewhere in the C19?
[ 04. April 2013, 20:51: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
I'd have thought that the twice (partial) abolition of slavery ought to be a strong contender (shared with worldwide Christianity and Enlightment values respectively).
The reintroduction in the middle is probably a strong contender for a low point (again shared between all parties).
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
The fact that Alpha achieves what it sets out to achieve does not make it "UK Christianity's Greatest Success", which is what the OP referenced. It may be Nicky Gumboil's success story, or HTB's; but as others have said, that doesn't mean it's necessarily what Jesus had in mind.
As to whether Alpha is what Jesus had in mind, the same question could be asked of any of the plentiful Christian movements, denominations and projects that the British have come up with and exported around the world over the centuries.
Actually, I'd assumed that the article was talking about a contemporary success, in which case Alpha is a reasonable example. But if we're talking about the whole of British church history, then Alpha's probably not very distinctive.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Relationship, rules.
But people do seem very keen on the latter. Like I have to believe in a Virgin Birth. I must believe in a physical literal resurrection. Those seem like rules to me. They seem like things to sign up to when joining a religion to me. If it's about the former, then why the huffiness about orthodoxy?
It is not a rule, it is just logical that you can´t have a relationship with a person which you believe is not alive, or only alive in a "non-literal way".
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
The question I would like to ask is how successful has Alpha been? If it had really made such a huge difference, wouldn't you notice the pendulum start to swing back the other way, with Britons starting to return to church?
Oh, I've heard plenty of talk about "Back to Church Sunday", gushing media articles about how individuals' lives have been changed, but how can it be such a success story when people are still deserting the churches?
Therefore, I can't describe anything contemporary as UK Christianity's greatest success story - all I see is failure. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
It may be Nicky Gumboil's success story, or HTB's; but as others have said, that doesn't mean it's necessarily what Jesus had in mind.
The basic format of Alpha is meal together, talk and then discussion. Jesus liked to be at meals. I suspect people would ask him about stuff at the meal, and his teaching method often involved posing questions to those there, which would provoke discussion. So, as a style of reaching people, my opinion is the Jesus would like it.
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
It was smug middle and upper class Christians who brought about things such as the abolition of slavery and improved prisoner welfare.
If Christians aren't even prepared to celebrate people coming to Christ , from whatever social background , then we don't have to look very hard to see one reason as to why the Church is fucked.
Mark Betts [[ LIKED ]] this (apart from the 'F' word.)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Relationship, rules.
But people do seem very keen on the latter. Like I have to believe in a Virgin Birth. I must believe in a physical literal resurrection. Those seem like rules to me. They seem like things to sign up to when joining a religion to me. If it's about the former, then why the huffiness about orthodoxy?
It is not a rule, it is just logical that you can´t have a relationship with a person which you believe is not alive, or only alive in a "non-literal way".
No, I believe that Jesus is alive in a quite literal way, or at least that if he isn't Christianity's a bit pointless. You appear to be assuming I've said things I haven't said.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
It may be Nicky Gumboil's success story, or HTB's; but as others have said, that doesn't mean it's necessarily what Jesus had in mind.
The basic format of Alpha is meal together, talk and then discussion. Jesus liked to be at meals.
I like to eat, too. I find it helps in staying alive. Did you have a point?
quote:
I suspect people would ask him about stuff at the meal, and his teaching method often involved posing questions to those there, which would provoke discussion.
Well, if you suspect it, it must be true.
quote:
So, as a style of reaching people, my opinion is the Jesus would like it.
Any interest in discussing the substance?
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The question I would like to ask is how successful has Alpha been? If it had really made such a huge difference, wouldn't you notice the pendulum start to swing back the other way, with Britons starting to return to church?
Thing is, how do we know what the church membership / attendance situation would have been without the Alpha Course? I wonder if any serious research has been done to compare areas where Alpha has been run with areas where it has not; and likewise for other 'introducing Christianity' courses, if Alpha specifically isn't one's cup of tea.
I think Christians Against Poverty deserve a mention. They've helped thousands of people get out of debt, introduced Jesus to many people who were completely unchurched, and won several secular awards for being a good employer. My church runs a CAP centre and it's been just brilliant in many different ways.
Funnily enough, there's an interesting contrast with Alpha, in that CAP brings the Christian message to many people who know virtually nothing about it, whereas Alpha seems effective at giving already interested people a forum for exploring Christianity further.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The question I would like to ask is how successful has Alpha been? If it had really made such a huge difference, wouldn't you notice the pendulum start to swing back the other way, with Britons starting to return to church?...
Ah yes, the elephant in the room, which everybody tries to ignore. So, what exactly is the point of putting money and resources into Christianity if it is beyond the point of no return anyway? It doesn't even delay the inevitable; all it does is keep a small army of priests and ministers in employment for a bit longer. Short of making church-going compulsory, there isn't going to be a great revival. It's a bit like the Welsh language - however many resources the Welsh Assembly spend on promoting it, it will continue to decline, because people don't see the point of learning or speaking it. And like Welsh, all that will remain will be groups of middle-class hobbyists and literati.
How about looking ten or twenty years ahead, and planning now for a radically slimmed-down Christianity - with maybe just the cathedrals and a few larger churches keeping the choral tradition alive, and the rest opened up to community groups and other faiths. Because that's what will happen anyway, so we might as well start thinking about it now.
At least, that's how I see things going.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Mae ofn gen i eich bod chi'n gywir/I fear that you're right
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
From the linked Independent article in the OP:-
quote:
Twenty years ago, evangelical Christianity was a fringe activity, associated with loony American cults.
Wilberforce?; Clapham Sect?; J C Ryle?: Donald Coggan?; John Stott?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
It may be Nicky Gumboil's success story, or HTB's; but as others have said, that doesn't mean it's necessarily what Jesus had in mind.
The basic format of Alpha is meal together, talk and then discussion. Jesus liked to be at meals.
I like to eat, too. I find it helps in staying alive. Did you have a point?
Perhaps I should have made it clearer that is meals together with others which is significant. This does seem to be something which Jesus did, and (of course) invites us to do with him.
quote:
quote:
I suspect people would ask him about stuff at the meal, and his teaching method often involved posing questions to those there, which would provoke discussion.
Well, if you suspect it, it must be true.
I'm just inferring from the NT accounts of such meals. Do you think when Jesus was at such a meal, the folk there would be all coy and English and not talk about religion?
quote:
quote:
So, as a style of reaching people, my opinion is the Jesus would like it.
Any interest in discussing the substance?
There have been discussions previously on the content of Alpha, if that is what you mean. From my point of view it is not a very surprising, fairly standard evangelical telling of the Gospel and the christian life, with an emphasis on charismatic matters which is a bit too much for some. However, the standard content does get adapted for different contexts. I believe that Catholics are using Alpha in a number of countries.
Perhaps the substance should be measured in the change in people, and I do know people whose lives have been changed significantly having encountered God through Alpha (and not all smug middle class people). Even the (formerly) smug middle class find themselves doing the kinds of good works which have been mentioned in this thread.
For instance, HTB (not my church) does a lot with prisoners, ex-offenders and the homeless.
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
From the linked Independent article in the OP:-
quote:
Twenty years ago, evangelical Christianity was a fringe activity, associated with loony American cults.
Wilberforce?; Clapham Sect?; J C Ryle?: Donald Coggan?; John Stott?
Yes - what did they think Britain was like in 1993? That may have been a perception of British Evangelicalism but it was far from the reality. Then as now, evangelical churches were thriving and amongst some of the most socially active "organisations" in the UK.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
Meh. All too easy to take pot shots at HTB and Alpha.
Me, I thank God for anything that brings people to Christ. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Alpha. Christianity Explored. Anything else. Whatever it is. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
But on a lighter note, this is admittedly hilarious - vampires on the Alpha course: ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4anu5veNhSg
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
From the linked Independent article in the OP:-
quote:
Twenty years ago, evangelical Christianity was a fringe activity, associated with loony American cults.
Wilberforce?; Clapham Sect?; J C Ryle?: Donald Coggan?; John Stott?
Yes, quite.
I accept that we evangelicals don't have the same 'sexy' profile as Catholics ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) but that's lazy journalism!
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
The Salvation Army?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
When people start criticizing an activity for being "middle class" (and the person criticizing it, is very probably a middle class person too...) you just know that there is no point at all.
The problem with Alpha is... it is evangelical christianity. And people who don´t like evangelicalism will not like it. But they are doing their job. You cannot criticize a church course for teaching exactly those church´s beliefs... that´s what you expect when you go do a Church´s course. And you can´t criticize it for being too superficial, when the course is aimed exactly at newcomers and people who are not familiar with christianity.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
[QB] The question I would like to ask is how successful has Alpha been? If it had really made such a huge difference, wouldn't you notice the pendulum start to swing back the other way, with Britons starting to return to church?
The fact that the current Archbishop of Canterbury probably wouldn´t even be a practicing anglican if he had not joined the course once upon a time is worth to be noted. And various churches that were about to be closed, with fewer then 25 parioshioners going to the main service on Sunday are now with large congregations is a good thing too. Of course it has not turned England into a very religious country, but at least it has kept many congregations from being extinct.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
And Alpha is not merely evangelical. Some Catholic parishes are using it too.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
Ah yes, the elephant in the room, which everybody tries to ignore. So, what exactly is the point of putting money and resources into Christianity if it is beyond the point of no return anyway?..
Well, I never suggested that christianity is in terminal decline. I don't believe history is like that, where people can observe constant linear progression (or regression) and thereby predict the future. My point was that, at present, the Church has got things badly wrong - although this is not helped by the fact that we (in the west) are at this time probably in a trough of materialism, secularism and naturalism.
But if we look in our history books, we should be able to see that it was never possible to accurately predict the future from one moment in time, no matter how clever we think we are.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The Salvation Army?
Well, you would say that, wouldn't you?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
The fact that the current Archbishop of Canterbury probably wouldn´t even be a practicing anglican if he had not joined the course once upon a time is worth to be noted...
You are aware that Justin Welby and Nicky Gumbel are fellow Old Etonians, aren't you? ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
...You are aware that Justin Welby and Nicky Gumbel are fellow Old Etonians, aren't you?
...as is Sandy Millar (I mean yet another Old Etonian who was the principal founder of the Alpha Course.)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
...But on a lighter note, this is admittedly hilarious - vampires on the Alpha course:
Alpha Course - The Armstrong and Miller Show - BBC One
HAHAHAHA!!! ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) I LOVE it!
(sorry for the quintuple post - I have itchy fingers this morning...)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The question I would like to ask is how successful has Alpha been? If it had really made such a huge difference, wouldn't you notice the pendulum start to swing back the other way, with Britons starting to return to church?
Oh, I've heard plenty of talk about "Back to Church Sunday", gushing media articles about how individuals' lives have been changed, but how can it be such a success story when people are still deserting the churches?
Therefore, I can't describe anything contemporary as UK Christianity's greatest success story - all I see is failure.
Nice post - I agree! *
I also go along with The Great Gumby's posts here too of course.
As a matter of fact, I joined the thread because my screen reader read it as 'alpha cows' and I wondered what it was about. If I'd realised it was the alpha course, I would have stayed away, as I have a very low opinion of it!
*Oh dear!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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