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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: To Deacon or Not to Deacon
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PentEcclesiastic
Shipmate
# 12098
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Posted
In the case where a parish has no deacon and a priest fulfills the role of deacon, i.e. reading the Gospel, leading the Prayers of the People, and setting the Table, is it appropriate to list him/her in the service leaflet as "Deacon"?
It seems odd to me, but I don't know of any other options. To use "Gospeller" would preclude the other functions that this person is fulfilling in the service.
Any thoughts?
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We are called to be Holy.
Posts: 186 | From: Atlanta, Georgia | Registered: Nov 2006
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Were this to be the RC church a second priest would be indicated as a priest or indeed as a 'concelebrant'.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I have seen this done in Anglican Sarumistan by listing: Fr AB as celebrant, Fr BC as deacon, and Mr DE as subdeacon.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
Our leaflet no longer lists who did what role among the clergy; the only name given is that of the preacher on the line where "The Sermon" is indicated.
Previously, yes, we might have had something like:
Celebrant: Fr. A
Deacon: Fr. M
Subdeacon: John Doe
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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PentEcclesiastic
Shipmate
# 12098
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Posted
Right now, we list Presider, Preacher, and "Deacon." All three are priests.
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We are called to be Holy.
Posts: 186 | From: Atlanta, Georgia | Registered: Nov 2006
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
At least one prominent Canadian Anglo-Catholic parish lists "Celebrant, Assistant, Subdeacon" in the bulletin when the deacon is also in priest's orders.
[ 25. February 2016, 17:12: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
Following on to this query:
In your practice, when a person in priest's orders fills the deacon role, what vestment is worn? Alb-and-stole, dalmatic or con-celebrant chas? And if the first option, is the stole worn diagonally (diagonally?)
I've seen all of the above, and am just wonderin'
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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PentEcclesiastic
Shipmate
# 12098
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
Following on to this query:
In your practice, when a person in priest's orders fills the deacon role, what vestment is worn? Alb-and-stole, dalmatic or con-celebrant chas? And if the first option, is the stole worn diagonally (diagonally?)
I've seen all of the above, and am just wonderin'
Cassock-Alb and stole, worn as one would expect. Is that vertical?
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We are called to be Holy.
Posts: 186 | From: Atlanta, Georgia | Registered: Nov 2006
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
One would expect this on a deacon (plus maniple and/or tunicle, depending on parish custom).
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
Following on to this query:
In your practice, when a person in priest's orders fills the deacon role, what vestment is worn? Alb-and-stole, dalmatic or con-celebrant chas? And if the first option, is the stole worn diagonally (diagonally?)
I've seen all of the above, and am just wonderin'
In our place: amice, alb, cincture, stole worn diagonally (and fitted with connector gizmo to hold it that way), maniple if it exists in the set, and dalmatic.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
The justification for priests taking the deacon's role and wearing a dalmatic (which was standard practice pre Vatican 2) was put to me by one priest as he'd been ordained a deacon and remained one even when he was ordained priest.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
This still occurs regularly in the growing number of locations where the Extraordinary Form is used. RCs traditionally list the priests in question as Deacon and Subdeacon of the Mass.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Up In Smoke
Shipmate
# 10971
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Posted
In our place, a TEC parish, a priest serving as liturgical deacon wears the dalmatic but wears stole in the usual priestly configuration rather than over the left shoulder as a vocational deacon does. Since the stole is covered by the dalmatic, few would notice in any case. In our diocese, deacons are a strong presence and high profile. In many parishes, vocational deacons wear their stole over the dalmatic, to mark their diaconal vocation and their role in the liturgy.
Posts: 109 | From: The Left Coast | Registered: Feb 2006
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sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
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Posted
There is, I think, more than a bit of muddle here. I happened upon a TEC "Solemn High Mass" in the American Midwest where both liturgical deacon and subdeacon were laymen (the gendered noun is intentional) vested in dalmatic and tunicle, but the "deacon" performed none of the ritual acts typically associated with that order. I must confess, I don't get it here - a deacon is ordained to an order in the church's ministry - such an individual's role in the community, and role in the liturgy, should be consistent.
It's worth noting Associated Parishes position that the transitional diaconate should be abolished - one is ordained either to the diaconate or the priesthood - they are separate orders, they perform different roles in the community and in the liturgy.
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"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
Posts: 386 | From: Between two big lakes | Registered: Apr 2008
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
There is, I think, more than a bit of muddle here. I happened upon a TEC "Solemn High Mass" in the American Midwest where both liturgical deacon and subdeacon were laymen (the gendered noun is intentional) vested in dalmatic and tunicle, but the "deacon" performed none of the ritual acts typically associated with that order.
We'd never have anyone but an actual deacon or priest vest as a deacon; if we lacked someone to serve as deacon of the Mass, we'd deploy our "deaconless Mass" ceremonial, which is really a Missa Cantata. The celebrant comes in wearing the chasuble (so no cope-lifting ceremonial) and takes the essential tasks normally done by the deacon, and the subdeacon vests in cassock and surplice, stepping in to do some but not all of the usual things (read the Epistle; hold the Gospel book; administer a chalice).
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Not that it's been relevant for the past century, but in pre-Canon Code days, the wearing of deacon's vestments (including the maniple) by a layperson would be considered an impediment to any ordination down the line.
If you don't have a live deacon handy, then just do the missa canatata.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
Bishops of Oxford have been known to give permission for High Mass to be celebrated with two subdeacons rather than deacon+subdeacon. The one doing the deacon things didn't wear a stole, but did wear the dalmatic. I speak of the mid-70s,but the permission probably dated from Bishop Kirk's time.
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
Bishops of Oxford have been known to give permission for High Mass to be celebrated with two subdeacons rather than deacon+subdeacon. The one doing the deacon things didn't wear a stole, but did wear the dalmatic. I speak of the mid-70s,but the permission probably dated from Bishop Kirk's time.
Are you sure that is correct? Under canon law, I don't think a Bishop can dispense from what is compulsory and episcopal consent is not required for what is not compulsory.
There is also no technical distinction that I'm aware of in the CofE that is actually binding as a matter of canon law, between different sorts of Communion Service, either in the 1662 BCP or any of the books authorised since.
There is, arguably, a distinction between who could read the gospel in the BCP, and who can now - though one would have to be a very expert whizz to know exactly what the position was when in the intervening years. There is also a distinction between the rules applicable on this side of the Severn and the other side. Most of the rest is up to the particular package of ecclesiastic prejudices held by the incumbent.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
I'm donning my tinfoil hat here as I expect a lot of flak.
As a Reader, I often serve as liturgical deacon at the Mass. When doing so, I wear a Dalmatic (but no stole, obviously) and fulfil all the duties of a deacon. This includes the invitation to confession, reading the Gospel, preparing the altar, receiving g the offertory, administering the sacrament and giving the dismissal at the end.
Before anyone shoots me down in flames, all of these duties (among others) are listed on my Reader's licence as things that I am authorised to do.
When one of the priests acts as deacon, they wear a diaconal stole (i.e. over the left shoulder) under the dalmatic.
[ 28. February 2016, 19:19: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
I'm donning my tinfoil hat here as I expect a lot of flak.
As a Reader, I often serve as liturgical deacon at the Mass. When doing so, I wear a Dalmatic (but no stole, obviously) and fulfil all the duties of a deacon. This includes the invitation to confession, reading the Gospel, preparing the altar, receiving the offertory, administering the sacrament and giving the dismissal at the end.
Before anyone shoots me down in flames, all of these duties (among others) are listed on my Reader's licence as things that I am authorised to do.
When one of the priests acts as deacon, they wear a diaconal stole (i.e. over the left shoulder) under the dalmatic.
No flak from me. Apart from wearing a dalmatic, rather than cassock, surplice and blue scarf, those are all things that as I understand it, a Reader is supposed to do.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
I'm told that's not so unusual in A-C churches in the C of E. Since unordained subdeacons wear tunicles, and the word describes the same garment as "dalmatic" does, I can't see that it's improper for them to be worn by lay ministers. Heck, in some uses, there's a fourth sacred minister at high mass (i.e. a clerk or acolyte) who wears one too!
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I don't understand Readers. They are acting as non stipendiary deacons so they ought to be ordained as such.
Ritual Notes was very against lay men wearing tunicles, IIRC.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I don't understand Readers. They are acting as non stipendiary deacons so they ought to be ordained as such.
Why?
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
Ordaining Readers as deacons in England would have legal implications, although it would also give their children reduced fees at some independent schools.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
Bishops of Oxford have been known to give permission for High Mass to be celebrated with two subdeacons rather than deacon+subdeacon. The one doing the deacon things didn't wear a stole, but did wear the dalmatic. I speak of the mid-70s,but the permission probably dated from Bishop Kirk's time.
Are you sure that is correct? Under canon law, I don't think a Bishop can dispense from what is compulsory and episcopal consent is not required for what is not compulsory.
There is also no technical distinction that I'm aware of in the CofE that is actually binding as a matter of canon law, between different sorts of Communion Service, either in the 1662 BCP or any of the books authorised since.
There is, arguably, a distinction between who could read the gospel in the BCP, and who can now - though one would have to be a very expert whizz to know exactly what the position was when in the intervening years. There is also a distinction between the rules applicable on this side of the Severn and the other side. Most of the rest is up to the particular package of ecclesiastic prejudices held by the incumbent.
I had no reason to doubt the word of the then Parish Priest --- whose primary resource in liturgical matters was usually the Sacred Congregation of Rites, "until our bishops start to do their duty". And as I have said here before, there were until the 1990s laymen in the diocese who still treasured up their episcopal letters appointing them as subdeacons.
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
As a Reader, I often serve as liturgical deacon at the Mass. When doing so, I wear a Dalmatic (but no stole, obviously) and fulfil all the duties of a deacon. This includes the invitation to confession, reading the Gospel, preparing the altar, receiving g the offertory, administering the sacrament and giving the dismissal at the end.
Before anyone shoots me down in flames, all of these duties (among others) are listed on my Reader's licence as things that I am authorised to do.
me too
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I don't understand Readers. They are acting as non stipendiary deacons so they ought to be ordained as such.
Ritual Notes was very against lay men wearing tunicles, IIRC.
Not quite. I can see where you are coming from but a Reader's primary role is preaching, teaching and assisting at Services, or even leading non-eucharistic services. A permanent deacon does those things but their primary calling is service of the poor, sick, needy etc. Readers can't do that very much because apart from on Sundays, they're out earning their living.
Also, if this is something that launches your boat, Deacons are clerics. Readers are lay.
[ 29. February 2016, 10:29: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I'd hope Readers do take their part in pastoral care.
I know they are technically lay, but they often look pretty clerical to me.
I once attended a eucharist at a leading evangelical church. The sermon was preached by a reader who was the youth worker.
He was dressed in mufti, not a blue cassock which seemed to me far more liturgically appropriate.
Leo has mentioned in the past he only wears a dalmatic under protest.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I don't understand Readers. They are acting as non stipendiary deacons so they ought to be ordained as such.
Ritual Notes was very against lay men wearing tunicles, IIRC.
Not quite. I can see where you are coming from but a Reader's primary role is preaching, teaching and assisting at Services, or even leading non-eucharistic services. A permanent deacon does those things but their primary calling is service of the poor, sick, needy etc. Readers can't do that very much because apart from on Sundays, they're out earning their living.
Also, if this is something that launches your boat, Deacons are clerics. Readers are lay.
While Deacons are clerics, some - transitional or permanent - are also non-stipendiary and so join Readers in the 'real' world earning a living from Monday to Friday (or even Sunday to Saturday in these enlightened times). They would need to carry out their diagonal duties alongside their employment, which might only be on Sundays.
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2696 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
...
I once attended a eucharist at a leading evangelical church. The sermon was preached by a reader who was the youth worker.
He was dressed in mufti, not a blue cassock ...
.
Do you mean blue scarf + cassock & surplice? Blue cassocks, IIRC, used to be worn by deaconesses (and I suppose still might be by the handful that remain in the CofE).
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I don't understand Readers. They are acting as non stipendiary deacons so they ought to be ordained as such.
Ritual Notes was very against lay men wearing tunicles, IIRC.
Not quite. I can see where you are coming from but a Reader's primary role is preaching, teaching and assisting at Services, or even leading non-eucharistic services. A permanent deacon does those things but their primary calling is service of the poor, sick, needy etc. Readers can't do that very much because apart from on Sundays, they're out earning their living.
Also, if this is something that launches your boat, Deacons are clerics. Readers are lay.
While Deacons are clerics, some - transitional or permanent - are also non-stipendiary and so join Readers in the 'real' world earning a living from Monday to Friday (or even Sunday to Saturday in these enlightened times). They would need to carry out their diagonal duties alongside their employment, which might only be on Sundays.
My auto-text obviously needs a liturgical update - diaconal, not diagonal! That only applies to bishops, obviously.
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2696 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
A permanent deacon does those things but their primary calling is service of the poor, sick, needy etc. Readers can't do that very much because apart from on Sundays, they're out earning their living.
Mind you, so are permanent deacons generally.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I once attended a eucharist at a leading evangelical church. The sermon was preached by a reader who was the youth worker.
He was dressed in mufti, not a blue cassock which seemed to me far more liturgically appropriate.
Depends on the parish. There are some places where they never robe. I know of one Reader who borrowed a cassock, surplice and scarf for his licensing. He didn't see the point in shelling out to buy all that stuff he was only ever going to wear once.
Oh, and as Albertus has pointed out, Readers don't wear blue cassocks.
[ 01. March 2016, 06:38: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
We are a "lay people taking a liturgical deacon role" parish. Amice plus coloured apparel and alb for both "deacon" and "subdeacon" with dalmatics/tunicles for the gold, red and pink sets. No stoles or maniples.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Spike writes:
quote:
Oh, and as Albertus has pointed out, Readers don't wear blue cassocks.
Well, they shouldn't, but I have seen this in the Diocese of Central Florida, in churches in Orlando and in New Smyrna Beach. Happily, or not, depending on your leanings, blue cassocks are being replaced by cassock-albs.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
That's for the College of Readers?
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Friends don't let friends wear cassock-albs.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
We are a "lay people taking a liturgical deacon role" parish. Amice plus coloured apparel and alb for both "deacon" and "subdeacon" with dalmatics/tunicles for the gold, red and pink sets. No stoles or maniples.
As a matter of curiosity, does a 'lay person taking a liturgical deacon role' read the gospel?
In England, that is fine, but as I've mentioned before on various threads, I've sort of got an impression it isn't supposed to happen in Wales. Is there someone from Wales who knows? And in Wales, do Readers read the gospel?
Also does the 'lay person taking a liturgical deacon role' say the "Go in peace to love and serve the Lord" with the congregational response "In the name of Christ. Amen." at the end of the Communion service?
In England, Readers do, but does anyone know if they do in Wales?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
In our place, Enoch, yes they do. Gospel and dismissal.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
And at St Sanity also. Usually only a white cassock-alb, but tunicle/dalmatic on top for special occasions, as does the crucifer, who normally only wears an alb.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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BabyWombat
Shipmate
# 18552
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Posted
Coming in late on the discussion: we’re a small TEC parish, 2 retired priests, one paid, one volunteer. On high days and holydays we tend to take turns “deaconing” for eachother, which is really just serving as assistant priest, but doing the things a deacon would do – read the gospel, set the table, assist with the cup, wash the dishes, dismiss. Do so vested as priest in alb and uncrossed stole. To the best of my knowledge TEC has no provision for a “lay deacon” – rubrics call for a deacon to do some actions but in the absence of a deacon they are done by the priest. Lay persons appropriately licensed may distribute the cup.
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Let us, with a gladsome mind…..
Posts: 102 | From: US | Registered: Feb 2016
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
Informal Catholic Parish.
Readers act as liturgical deacon when we don't have a Deacon. They wear Reader's Choir Dress. We then have a 'Server' who acts as Subdeacon.
When our deacon is priested I will certainly be going on the Sunday School Rota and Crèche Rota, so won't be hanging about to 'Deacon'.
Although all the children are back in church for the peace.
Readers are not Deacons. Perhaps those who feel called to be ought to be. However this clearly outlines they take the liturgical role of deacons. I know plenty of readers who also do the pastoral work of deacons.
[ 04. April 2016, 17:11: Message edited by: Edward Green ]
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