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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Kerygmania: 'Late' Babies
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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
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Posted
Over in Purg, I started a discussion about "the immaculate conception of John the Baptist" (it was something that my art history lecturer said). Thankfully the idea of JB having an IC was round defeated. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
But this did get me to thinking about 'late' babies.
Luke 1 - John the Baptist was born to an elderly seemingly barren couple. He then went on to the described as the greatest prophet.
1 Samuel 1 - Hannah is being tormented by her husband's other wife, and she prays to the Lord. Hannah, who has been declared barren, becomes the mother of Samuel. Samuel is a great prophet and judge.
My question is : are there any children born to infertile couples who do NOT go on to do great things? Is it a 'badge of office'? A child born in old age becomes the 'star'?
Who else was conceived in an extrordinary manner, or who had a 'special' birth/childhood?
bb
[ 19. June 2003, 17:55: Message edited by: Erin ]
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Porter-Miller
Tiocfaidh Separabit
# 1459
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by babybear:
Who else was conceived in an extrordinary manner, or who had a 'special' birth/childhood?
bb
Hi Babybear,
Surprised you missed out Isaac there! Genesis 17, 21 and 22 ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Oh well, we're not all perfect
Robert
Posts: 1231 | From: Washington, D.C. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ann
Curious
# 94
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Posted
And Joseph was born to Rachel after Leah and the two bond-maids had had ten of the sons of Jacob and his daughter first.
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Ann
Posts: 3271 | From: IO 91 PI | Registered: May 2001
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
This does seem to be a common theme of "hero" types in the Bible - ought it to alert us to a convention, rather than a reality? The scriptures do often play on the idea of the barren woman being given a child as a sign of God's grace and activity.
Interestingly, the birth of Zaphod Beeblebrox was, according to reports, accompanied by collapsing starts, earthquakes, tidal waves and major insurance claims. However, it seems that the source of these reports was Beeblebrox himself.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
I think that a "barren woman" represents Israel herself, waiting in vain for her Savior. Or in a larger sense, the world as a whole, waiting for the peace that has so long eluded it.
In fact, it is interesting that Jesus was not born to an old, barren woman. I guess the symbolic value of virginity trumped barrenness in this instance!
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I did find myself sniggering on Sunday during the readings, at the thought of Isaac being born to a man of 100 and being seen as a joy. I should think if I was a hundred it would be totally exhausting more like!
I am sure that either the birth is symbolic or the age is symbolic. Old people meant wise people, didn't they? A good excuse for adding an extra 40 years or so on. After all, it happens now the other way around, with the culture of youth so prevalent.
Best wishes, Chorister (aged 21 ![[Wink]](wink.gif) )
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dave P
stoned
# 2900
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Posted
I don't get it. All this women happily dropping sprogs way past the menopause and men living for hundreds of years. What happened? After Jesus, did people start dying younger to be with him sooner or is it that they knew about some now lost diet that kept them sprightly back then? I think its something in the water.
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ne Holy Stone
Posts: 736 | From: brum | Registered: Jun 2002
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
My opinion is that although the ages were symbolic, the story is nevertheless true. It was important for the events to really happen to these people at the ages stated for symbolic reasons. So I think that they might really have been that old.
I'm not sure why some people supposedly lived so long in these stories. Partly I think that the longevity is miraculous. But I'm also aware that it is not uncommon for people in third world countries to live to a very old age. There were a number of people over 100 years old in my small West African village when I was a Peace Corps volunteer (or so they claimed). It seems that if you are hardy enough to survive childhood, and the incredibly high infant mortality rate, you can survive anything.
On the other hand, these biblical ages could be purely symbolic, and bear no relation to the actual ages of Abraham, Isaac or whoever.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I think the story of the birth of Isaac is the only one where the mother is said to have been past menopause.
As far as the others are concerned, a woman is considered infertile if she has been married for years and failed to conceive.
This happens nowadays. I have a friend who was married at the age of twenty and very much wanted children. She didn't get pregnant, and the doctors told her she never would. She did get pregnant at the age of forty-one, and had a normal healthy child. Two years later she had another one.
I think this kind of thing happened in Bible times, but if the child did not turn out to be special, no one bothered to repeat the story.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
quote:
Who else was conceived in an extrordinary manner, or who had a 'special' birth/childhood?
What some folklorists refer to as 'Tales of the Youngest Son' - basically stories of wonderful deeds carried out by the most insignificant family member - are common in many cultures, and I suspect that some of the Old Testament stories are of this kind.
In such stories, the birth doesn't have to be miraculous - David is the disregarded youngest child 'out watching the sheep' - and yet ends up as the (literal) giant-killer.
In other stories, the youngest son is buried in a pit in the ground by his jealous siblings (like Joseph of the colourful coat) and yet still goes on to do great things.
(There are 'youngest daughter' stories too - Cinderella is a well-known example; is there a Biblical parallel to stories of this kind, other than Rahab the Harlot, who isn't 'the youngest', just 'the baddest'?)
BUT I wouldn't take this as implying that the Biblical stories are untrue (even in a Police Court sense) - true tales become folk-stories precisely because they 'seem right' to the people who repeat them.
John
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Sometimes all it takes to conceive is adopting. I've known it happen to more than one couple.
Reader Alexis
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
Hannah went on to have loads more children, and there is no record of them being in any way special......and who's to say she wasn't only a teenager when she was married? So she could have still been young when Sam. appeared.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ann
Curious
# 94
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Posted
Just remembered Samson.
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Ann
Posts: 3271 | From: IO 91 PI | Registered: May 2001
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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
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Posted
So, are we dealing with narrative causality here, or is this a way that God chooses to mark out people as being special, both mothers and babies?
bb
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
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Buttons
Shipmate
# 2108
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Posted
I am not suggesting that all miracles can or should be explained in terms of modern science. IMHO God isn't bound by any limitations, and certainly not by our feeble understanding of what is possible. That said, there are various hormonal conditions which make conception difficult; which sometimes allow suffers to conceieve as they approach the menopause and the balance of hormones in the body changes. Could there perhaps have been some genetic tendancy towards this amongst families in the Old Testament?
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It all depends what you mean by alright of course.
Posts: 137 | From: The bottom of a biscuit tin | Registered: Jan 2002
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Sarajane
Shipmate
# 1642
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Posted
There's a psychological aspect here too- a child who grows up among adults regarded as a 'miracle baby' and the apple of mum's eye in a very religious culture may be more likely to have the self-belief needed to do great things. They may have grown up with the idea that they are destined for something special- they'll certainly be more likely to have been a natural loner than the middle one of 5 kids brought up by a young and harrassed mother.
Food for thought
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Still wondering.....
Posts: 97 | From: half way up the mountain | Registered: Oct 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by babybear:
So, are we dealing with narrative causality here, or is this a way that God chooses to mark out people as being special, both mothers and babies?
I think this is just one of many metaphoric conventions that are common in the Bible. The barren mother waits in vain for the saving child, just as Israel, and the world as a whole, apparently waits in vain for peace, or its salvation. "Barren" is just another way of saying that life has become apparently fruitless and devoid of hope.
The idea is to encourage people not to give up even when their situation appears bleak.
The Bible is packed with stories in which the hopeless underdog succeeds.
1. The youngest often becomes the leader, as in Joseph and David
2. Victories are won by small and weak contingents, as with Gideon and Jonathan.
3. Abraham is promised that his descendents will be like the sand of the seashore, even though Sarah is barren.
4. Enslaved Israel is miraculously freed from mighty Egypt.
5. Elijah as the one prophet of Jehovah easily defeats the hundreds of prophets of Baal in the contest on Mt. Carmel.
6. Daniel is repeatedly saved in Babylon from the machinations of his enemies.
7. David defeats Goliath.
8. Humble and apparently powerless, Jesus saves the whole world.
I believe that all of these stories are true, and happened as stated. But they happened, and were recorded in the way that they were, to symbolize the miraculous nature of God's ability to save every person.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
quote:
So, are we dealing with narrative causality here
This is Roundworld, bb, not Discworld; there's a marked shortage of narrativium round here
John
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
This is Roundworld...
![[Confused]](confused.gif) ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Hastur the Unspeakable
Apprentice
# 2819
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
This is Roundworld...
It's a Terry Pratchett reference. Don't worry about it. On the Discworld, narrative causality is governed by a substance called narrativium which certain individuals can manipulate
In two of this latest books, a pocket dimension is created where magic (and thus narrativium) can't enter. The universe in this dimension evolves into something very similar to our own
Posts: 43 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: May 2002
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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
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Posted
Blast! I have managed to de-rail this thread.
quote:
Sarajane wrote:
There's a psychological aspect here too- a child who grows up among adults regarded as a 'miracle baby' and the apple of mum's eye in a very religious culture may be more likely to have the self-belief needed to do great things.
I have been wondering about that too. It was actually sparked by watching the movie "Joseph". One of the songs is "Miracle Child".
Does it matter where our heros come from? Is it important that they are from a backwater, Saul, first king os Israel, from the smallest tribe, and the least family? Or does this re-inforce the idea of the first shall be last, and the last shall be first?
bb
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by babybear:
Or does this re-inforce the idea of the first shall be last, and the last shall be first?
That is absolutely what it is about. Probably one of the primary themes in Scripture.
What can seem relatively unimportant in this world - religious love and faith - is EVERYTHING in the next. Those who put others first and themselves last become first. Those who give up their own lives for others, gain their life. Etc. etc. It is all about the re-orientation of priorities. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
quote:
That is absolutely what it is about. Probably one of the primary themes in Scripture.
We get back to Baby Bear's (or Pratchett's) narrative causality here, I suspect. No-one would think it worth remarking about if a hero came from a long line of heroes, or if he was was the obviously strong older brother, or if the beautiful older sister married the handsome prince - the very thing that makes the story into a story is the fact that our natural expectations of 'the way the world works' are subverted; of course, after a while we expect a story to work like that 'because that's how stories are'.
It's not purely a Biblical thing, though; King Arthur is the disregarded younger son (and foundling) who proves his worth by - in most versions of the story - getting a magical sword, either from the stone in which it's embedded or from the Lady of the Lake. The Anglo-Saxon hero Beowulf (whose name, incidentally, means exactly the same as Arthur (=Bear), and who also dies fighting a dragon by the sea-side (Mordred = Môr-draig = sea-dragon)) has a highly suspect lineage involving a cradle cast up on the sea-shore; and Moses is also found in a floating cradle by Pharoah's daughter. But then, if the hero were perfectly ordinary in every respect, he wouldn't be a hero!
John
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
It's not purely a Biblical thing, though;
Great observation. Maybe showing the universality of biblical thought.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarajane:
There's a psychological aspect here too- a child who grows up among adults regarded as a 'miracle baby' and the apple of mum's eye in a very religious culture may be more likely to have the self-belief needed to do great things. They may have grown up with the idea that they are destined for something special- they'll certainly be more likely to have been a natural loner than the middle one of 5 kids brought up by a young and harrassed mother.
Food for thought
Such a child would not only have a strong self-belief, but also a strong sense that great things are expected of him. He would not feel free to take an ordinary job and marry the girl next door.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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