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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Dead Horses: Transsexual woman allowed to marry
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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
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Posted
quote:
BBC report
A British transsexual has won her battle in the European Court of Human Rights to be recognised as a woman and be allowed to marry.
It believe this now opens the doors for other transsexuals to marry.
bb
[ 21. October 2005, 07:47: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
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Olorin
Shipmate
# 2010
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Posted
But how is 'she' a woman? If you were to take some DNA & clone it you would get another man. If she were not to take the hormones & other tablets on a daily basis 'her' body would revert back to its natural male state (sans surgically missing bits). While a considerable amount of cosmetic, surgical & chemical altering can be done to the human form, it only alters the surface. The underlying DNA superstructure remains untouched.
To recognise & respect that a transexual is 'Other' and appreciate them as human beings is one thing, but to call them what they basically are not seems illogical.
I actually picked up most of this idea from Germaine Greer discussing a transexual student being accepted into an Oxford Women only college.
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I wrestled with God, and lost by two falls & a submission.
Posts: 390 | From: Hammersmith, London | Registered: Dec 2001
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fusilli
Shipmate
# 2930
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Posted
quote:
If you were to take some DNA & clone it you would get another man
I don't know about the particular case in the OP but the above statement is not necessarily true as there are a few people who are sexually indeterminate (YYX instead of YY or YX). I don't know if this makes a differnece to the arguement or not.
There were a couple of really god articles in the Christian Press last year. I found some refs:
A Personal Testimony
So what is a Christian response to transsexuals?
There was also an article about a church that minsitered to and lovingly integrated a transsexual who wanted to revert. Unfortunatley, I couldn't find a link to that.
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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I want to be weaker, give help to the strong ("Deeper" by Martin Smith)
"... my power is made perfect in weakness" (2 Cor 12:9)
Posts: 206 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Jun 2002
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J Whitgift
Pro ecclesia dei!
# 1981
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Posted
By saying that a persons DNA defines them as who they are, surely we are rejecting the right for them to define themselves as who they are, not just as what they are. Surely to define someone simply by what chromosomes or genetic make-up they have we are predicting who they are, and determining it for them. Surely it is society, familial upbrining, psychological upbringing which develops who we are, dosed with a liberal sprinkling of the Holy Spirit (who is the Lord the giver of Life), and some influence of other people, not mentioned above.
It may not be morally/ ethically right for a transexual to marry someone of the same sex (if they perceive themselves as being Male-Female or Female-Male), but it is not a biological point per se.
We surely have to allow this person to be the person they feel themselves to be (over and above what a biological determinism might assume). After this we must then review the ethical and moral issues, and base the decision on that. Ok it might not be right for that person to marry, but at least lets affirm in them there right to be them.
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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.
Posts: 2838 | From: Gone shoreside | Registered: Dec 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fusilli:
There were a couple of really god articles in the Christian Press last year. I found some refs:
A Personal Testimony
So what is a Christian response to transsexuals?
Oh God. Give me strength.
I'm deeply happy for Keith Tiller. I guess all that we can say about him then, is that he does not suffer from gender dysphoria, also known as gender identity disorder and congenital gender disability, which is an internationally recognised medical condition and treated under the strict conditions of the
Harry Benjamin Standards of Care.
Fusilli, acquaint yourself more thoroughly on the subject matter before you start posting links to misinformed material that is harmful to and misrepresenting of persons with gender dysphoria. Namely, articles that describe gender dysphoria as 'an addiction' and 'a self-determined gender identity'. quote:
From Mr Tiller's testimony:
Last year (1999) the Evangelical Alliance commissioned a report on transsexuality which has just been published by Paternoster. It is the most comprehensive publication on the subject to date – anywhere.
It is not the most comprehensive publication on the subject to date, but it may well be the most academically dishonest publication on the subject to date. I knew it would only be a matter of time before the EA's book on Transsexuality became the de jure standard for christian understanding and response on the matter. Jesus wept.
I couldn't get the 2nd link to load. That is probably a good thing.
[fixed UBB for URL]
[ 11 July 2002, 13:31: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
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Posted
Please remember that some of our shipmates have identified themselves as being transsexuals. 'They' are part of the ship's community; 'they are 'us'.
bb
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
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Atticus
Shipmate
# 2212
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Posted
With all deference to transexuals, I'm not sure I buy into this whole "allowing people to define themselves" bit. Not having to do with sex necessarily, but I can't define myself as a geriatric woman of African descent just because I want to. I agree that society should not define people for them, but there are facts in this old world of ours, one of the facts is that I am a young white male. I can't change that just because I don't like it. Sure I'd like to be Morgan Freeman, but I CAN'T. It is not my right to be called Morgan Freeman and referred to as that "old sexy black guy" just because I want it that way.(I don't mean that as an argument against transexuality, but rather against post-modern mumbojumbo)
Frankly folks should be allowed to marry whomever they please (provided churches be allowed to decide who they do and don't marry, according to their beliefs). But saying we can redefine ourselves however and whenever we want is bunk. We are who we are, we are who we were born as, we are the sum total of our decisions, we cannot just up and decide to be something we are not. Accept the facts and deal with them as you will, surgically or otherwise, but don't try to negate the facts of life.
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This time it's for real, I'm really gone until August. For real. Gone. Bye.
"My life would be a lot simpler if I were gay."
Posts: 321 | From: off the deep end | Registered: Jan 2002
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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
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Posted
Before we understood about genetics, hormones, or how various bits of the brain work society had already decided that there were two sexs, male and female.
Males were males, females were females. Most of the time they liked others of the opposite sex. Transsexuals were probably seen as being effeminate/butch and homosexual.
Then along comes genetics which says that there are males XY and females XX, but there are also 'in-betweeners' XXY XYY etc. Then after a while people start working out that hormones have a huge deal to do with how the body works, and that hormone can 'over-rule' the 'starting position'.
And we still try to make everyone fit into the male and females categories!
Christine Goodwin, regardless of her 'starting point', feels more at home being crammed into the 'female' box that the 'male' one. As she is the one who knows what is going on inside herself, then it should be she who decides.
bb
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I'm not a doctor or scientist so I may have this all wrong but here's how I see it.
Humans have a thousand ways they can mess up the body God gave them. Some of these mistakes can happen in utero. Just as a healthy fetus can be harmed by thalidomide it can also be harmed by injested hormones.
All embryoes look female for the first few months and then the ones intended to be male are filled with testosterone (more than they'll have again until puberty) and the "ovaries" desend and become testicles while the "clitoris" grows into a penis and the vagina closes over. This process is usually only completed during the last few hours before birth.
Now, say the mother is carrying a fetus whom God intended to be a girl. It has a female mind. Suddenly, due to a pill or hormone laced beef or tainted water or whatever, the mother ingests excess testosterone and the fetus, all unintended by nature, develops male characteristics. Is she not still a female? Are the male apendages as mistaken on her body as the sad effects of thalidomide on another? Doesn't she have a right to correct this and live her life as she was originally intended?
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olorin:
But how is 'she' a woman? If you were to take some DNA & clone it you would get another man. If she were not to take the hormones & other tablets on a daily basis 'her' body would revert back to its natural male state (sans surgically missing bits).
Because you are approaching the matter from genetics I offer you the example of CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) women. These are XY women, typically with beautiful, leggy, voluptuous bodies and female genitalia. If you clone one, you will get another XY person, who will show the same body-type. These women are often not even aware of their chromosome make-up until they reach puberty and don't menstruate, or they try to conceive (some similar conditions eg. Swyer syndrome, the woman menstruates but goes through a very early menopause). Take a look at these women: CAIS women and ask yourself if you could tell them they weren't really women and they couldn't marry. If the site is down because it has exceeded its no. of page views, then look at Jamie Lee Curtis who is a classic CAIS looking woman. (She has not confirmed it, but also never denied it). No-one in their right mind would try to get them to 'revert' or attempt to be physically congruent to their chromosomal sex (which with their resistance to the effects of testosterone means it can only happen via masectomy and other surgical procedures).
I am using an intersex condition to demonstrate, but consider that there also exist C (and partial) AIS XY men. Men who may have been raised as girls, gone through a distressing puberty but in the face of all visible physical evidence insist that they are men, and then undertake surgical reassignment to make their body congruent with their core gender.
I used this example to show that chromosomal sex is not the last word.
So then, is the case of a transsexual woman any different? quote:
While a considerable amount of cosmetic, surgical & chemical altering can be done to the human form, it only alters the surface. The underlying DNA superstructure remains untouched.
You've not mentioned the core identity. That also is untouched. And in a true transsexual the core identity (we are talking here about a male-to-female transition) was female to begin with.
The aetiology of gender dysphoria is still in dispute, but there is evidence that a major part is determined by the in utero hormone environment of the foetus. So consider an XX foetus which is exposed to large amounts of testosterone in utero. At the crucial moment, the foetus' brain is masculinised - as happens in the normal development of an XY foetus. Therefore, I suggest it is no more possible or ethical to get an transsexual man to 'revert' than it is for a biological man. Not only that, but when couched in terms of 'christian healing and wholeness' it is immoral and dangerous.
quote:
To recognise & respect that a transexual is 'Other' and appreciate them as human beings is one thing, but to call them what they basically are not seems illogical.
You've missed the point! What sort of 'not quite one of us' comment is that?! A transsexual is not other! In his masculinity and identity a transsexual man is like any other man. He may not have any equipment (yet), but what's in a man's pants is not the defining characteristic of a man.
quote:
I actually picked up most of this idea from Germaine Greer discussing a transexual student being accepted into an Oxford Women only college.
Germaine Greer boxing herself into a corner on CAIS and being her usual compassionate self.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Olorin
Shipmate
# 2010
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Posted
For me people are people regardless. God loves 'em & the rest of us are trying.
The idea that we can define ourselves completely separately & independant from basic biological facts seems odd. As current medicine stands, I can not describe myself as having long blond hair. I am bald (mostly), and wearing a wig or other disguise or asking my friends to treat me as though I had long blond hair (out of respect for my selfmade identity) does not change the reality that I have very little hair.
Male and female are biologically fairly clearly defined. There are exceptions to be sure. All I'm asking is that we suggest that they are 'other', not male/female. Outside the conventional box where the box obviously doesnot fit. But don't call it a duck if does not have webbed feet & it cant swim .
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I wrestled with God, and lost by two falls & a submission.
Posts: 390 | From: Hammersmith, London | Registered: Dec 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Atticus:
But saying we can redefine ourselves however and whenever we want is bunk. We are who we are, we are who we were born as, we are the sum total of our decisions, we cannot just up and decide to be something we are not. Accept the facts and deal with them as you will, surgically or otherwise, but don't try to negate the facts of life.
Yes! Yes! A thousand times 'Yes'! The transsexuals of the world join me in saying 'Yes! You have spoken the truth!' Transsexuals do not define themselves, they are who they were born as and cannot be something they are not. They accept these facts and hence seek surgical and medical treatment.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olorin:
But don't call it a duck if does not have webbed feet & it cant swim .
Here is Mr Jamison Green.
He looks like a duck to me. He quacks like a duck. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
He can't inseminate a woman, but there are a few XY men that can't do that.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Sola Scriptura
Shipmate
# 2229
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Posted
Just a thought: can a marriage be a real marriage when there is at the outset no biological ability to reprouded in the case of a man pretending to be a woman and marring a man, or for that matter 2 heterosexuls who marry without the slightest inclincation to have children? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Used to be Gunner.
Posts: 576 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Lou Poulain
Shipmate
# 1587
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GUNNER:
Just a thought: can a marriage be a real marriage when there is at the outset no biological ability to reprouded in the case of a man pretending to be a woman and marring a man, or for that matter 2 heterosexuls who marry without the slightest inclincation to have children?
Ah, Gunner!!! The crux of the issue at last. What is marriage?
If two elderly folk decide to marry (happens all the time) and both are well past menopause, it is a "real" marriage? If a couple marry, and either party is sexually disfunctional, is it a "real" marriage? If a couple marry, and both parties realize that they would be horrid parents, and they decide, for the wellfare of children yet unconceived, to remain childless, is that a "real" marriage? What about a couple where one party is transexual?
So who draws the line?
Lou
Posts: 526 | From: Sunnyvale CA USA | Registered: Oct 2001
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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GUNNER:
Just a thought: can a marriage be a real marriage when there is at the outset no biological ability to reprouded
I presume that you mean reproduce.
Yes of course it is real. A friend of mine had to have a hysterectomy at the age of 25. She has no chance of producing any children. But if she decided to marry, I very much doubt whether anyone would question whether he marriage was real!
This is a complete and utter red herring.
bb
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
People may be interested to read about Kevin and Jennifer -v- The Attorney General for the Commonwealth.
In his judgement 12th Oct 2001, Justice Chisholm of the Family Court of Australia declared the marriage between a transsexual man and his wife valid. (The Attorney General has appealed the decision).
Notably: on the evidence of Australian and international experts on human sexual formation and transsexualism the Justice found "that a human being's sexual identity is biologically derived as a result of the sexual differentiation of the brain which, like the genitalia and gonads, irreversibly differentiates in the process of a person's formation as a human being"
Findings as listed by the Applicants' lawyer:
(for those that can't be bothered with the article)
7.1 The decision of Corbett is not persuasive and does not represent Australian law;
7.2 There may be circumstances in which a person who at birth had gonads, chromosomes and genitals of one sex, may nevertheless be of the other sex at the date of his or her marriage; such as in the case of a person who has, prior to the marriage, undergone the medical procedure called sex assignment or re-assignment;
7.3 That brain development is (at least) an important determinant of a person's sense of being a male or female, that the characteristics of transsexuals are as much "biological" as those of people thought of or referred to as intersex and that there is a biological feature of the brain that determines whether individuals think of themselves as male or female; whatever their other biological characteristics.
8. Thus, transsexualism is now properly recognised as a natural variation in human formation within the so-called intersex continuum; and not some form of psychological or mental illness. Like any predicament of human variation or difference, the prime ongoing disability of transsexualism for the persons who experience it, their families and their loved ones is not the predicament itself, but the response of others.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Astro
Shipmate
# 84
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Posted
There are some people who have XY chromosome but are unable to react to testosterone (the male hormone) so in some way they are male (XY) but in others more female than the average female who does get slightly effected by testosterone. They appear female.
Although now DNA can be tested there have always been cases where the doctors are not sure if teh baby has a small penis or a large clitoris, if they get it wrong it is usually very difficult to change the birth certificate (a recent case took about 9 years)
![[Smile]](smile.gif) My 1000th post and I managed to get the word clitoris into it
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if you look around the world today – whether you're an atheist or a believer – and think that the greatest problem facing us is other people's theologies, you are yourself part of the problem. - Andrew Brown (The Guardian)
Posts: 2723 | From: Chiltern Hills | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I first became interested in this subject when my cousin, a perfectly normal, healthy, sports loving boy, failed to go through puberty at the usual time. At sixteen his parents took him to a doctor. Tests proved "normal" as far as chromosomes, brain tumors, edochrine function and a dozen other possibilities.
His pituitary gland just didn't seem to know that it was time to send out the releasing hormones that trigger the surge of testosterone that cause a boy to turn into a man. At nineteen he began taking synthetic testosterone shots and within a few months he grew six inches, developed a deep voice, a beard, the ability to have sexual intercourse, a boney brow ridge, etc. etc. He's now a handsome young man with a steady girl friend. The one thing the hormone replacement injections can't do is make viable sperm so he won't ever be able to have a child of his own.
Now I ask you:
Should he be allowed to marry?
Would the "call a duck a duck" people maintain that he was not really a man but actually a boy, because without the hormones that's how he would have remained physically?
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Irvin D Yalom
Shipmate
# 2833
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fusilli:
[QUOTE]
There were a couple of really god articles in the Christian Press last year. I found some refs:
A Personal Testimony
So what is a Christian response to transsexuals?
If those are good articles, what would bad ones be like?
Actually, the first is okay. I'm glad that the first writer found a way through; he advertises the Gospel as a place of healing. I find some of the rest of his comments a bit dismissive, but there you go.
The second, though, is hilariously wrong - a great shining middlebrow example of the kind of nonsense which passes for informed Christian commentary in some circles.
I just love the last paragraph: "I don't really regret letting students raise knotty problems that totally stump me. I must do more thinking on this yet - but I wouldn't have started if it weren't for them." It strikes the same wistful note as someone who says, "I don't really regret being run over by a train" (subtext: it was God's will, and therefore I accept it).
The thing about knotty problems in which deep questions of identity and belonging, and the state of real people's souls, is that you have to sit quietly with them for a time, and also to read widely, not just run for the shelter of the nearest Evangelical Alliance encyclical on the subject. "The solution isn't physical, but psychological": that's alright, then, we can all go home with the Bible and the Daily Express tucked safely under our arms.
Apologies for sounding so cross, but I remember being a teenager in a similar-sounding youth group where a young person brought up the subject of a (hypothetical) woman who'd been so badly abused in childhood that she found in almost impossible to receive affection from a man. Instead, she'd found happiness with a monogamous female partner. I saw the leader seem just as uncomfortable, execute a similar rush-for-cover manoeuvre, and to me being a Christian isn't about that, it's about making oneself vulnerable, which can openness, staying with doubt, embracing paradox and contradiction.
You know, after attending Church as a teenager, I became an angrily anti-religious atheist for some years. This hungry sheep looked up and wasn't fed... though perhaps, since I'm back now, some seeds did fall and germinate (a mixed metaphor, I know).
love,
Irv.
Posts: 227 | From: U.K. | Registered: May 2002
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Paul Careau
Shipmate
# 2904
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Posted
Most transsexuals appear to be driven first and foremost by a desire to change sex. This desire is often very secondary to their desires/preferences for sexual partners. These people are, in the vast majority of cases far happier once they have changed sex.
It is an issue that the rest of us are ill equipped to understand in my opinion. I am a bisexual man & therefore have (theoretically) some affinity with the transgender community. However, I personally have no desire to become a woman anymore than the vast majority of other men. Equally, the vast majority of gay men are quite happy as men & would not want to change sex & probably have never even thought about it. The transgender issue really goes way beyond sexuality as such.
In general terms I am strong in favour of gay marriage & therefore see little objection in this instance. If individual churches object to marrying transsexuals or homosexuals then that is up to them. I personally avoid churches that would not bless gay relationships - I would not ever feel part of such a congregation. However, people should still have the right to marry, or have some form of civil union that confers a similar legal status.
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Bye for now. Paul.
Posts: 92 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Oy.
Well, my views on gender coming mostly from the sixteenth century and before, I ...
Okay, time out. I've got to say this first:
Everyone, whoever they are, is special and matters. This is The Most Important Thing. And writing people off because we don't agree with their decisions or beliefs is Really Really Wrong. Talking down about them because they have made decisions (to have the surgery) or hold beliefs (about themselves, about the nature of gender itself, etc.) is also Really Really Wrong. This has to come first. Often it doesn't.
That said, I don't think (metaphysically) I believe in gender reassignment per se. About intersex people I don't know what gender they "really are" or are meant to be in the eyes of God. (I suppose we'll find out all of this at the General Resurrection.) But I also believe that -- while I believe maleness and femaleness are very important, intrinsic things which cannot truly be changed, on a metaphysical level -- before being male or female, we are all persons, made in God's image and loved by God, and dealing with matters like this requires absolute care and sensitivity. And I think when it comes to trans-gender people many of us don't show that care at all -- in many ways trans people are treated worse than gays, and are often left out of legislative efforts dealing with gay issues -- the "T" in "LGBT."
I've occasionally wondered about various aspects of this issue, and will continue to do so. I do believe in intrinsic "masculinity" and "femininity," not only biologically but mystically, the yin and yang of the cosmos that God has made, and how trans issues may relate to that, has been on my mind more lately, partly because I've been meeting (online but occasionally in person) trans people or people with trans people close to them.
Hugs to all, of whatever gender
David
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
The majority of us, who never seriously question our sexulity, are woefully inequipped to understand the pain, emotional, mental and spiritual, which transsexual people must go through. I often wonder what they did before all this treatment was available, and I suppose they just considered themselves gay.
No one has ever come up with a rational explanation for what makes people "out of synch" with their own sex. Freud suggested it was psychological, learned at the mother's knee, ie under the age of 5. Others have said its genetic or hormonal, but maybe we'll never know. What we do know is that people don't choose their sexual orientation. Many gay/transvestite/transsexual people are full of self loathing for something they just are.
I speak as a person who, as a younger man, was ignorantly homophobic, and I'm not proud of it. The passage of time hs taught me that we all have abberations within ourselves that we'd rather hide, except from God, from whom we can hide nothing and no one can say that gay or transsexual people are any less loving and tolerant than anyone else.
Where their right to marry is concerned, my view is that the state should recognise all forms of marriage, same sex, transsexual or otherwise, but the church has a duty to the integrity of the Christian faith, and should only allow marriages which fall within what the faith permits. That doesn't prevent priests and congregations dealing pastorally with people who don't fit their mould.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Coot, I am glad that you brought up the example of androgen-insensitivity syndrome-as well as the other"intersex" conditions , most of which result in a phenotypical (as opposed to genotypical) female who is invariably infertile.
Does it matter whether a transsexual marries or not? Why should it be an issue for anyone? Does it downgrade the holy institute of marriage for anyone else? Is a woman any more a woman for being in possession of functioning gonads and a patent passageway? Or for that matter is a man any the less of one for the lack of gonadal function?
Marriage is a sacrament between 2 individuals. All the rest is just window-dressing.
I wonder how many of the contributors to this board have actually met and mixed it with a transsexual?
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH:
The majority of us, who never seriously question our sexulity, are woefully inequipped to understand the pain, emotional, mental and spiritual, which transsexual people must go through. I often wonder what they did before all this treatment was available, and I suppose they just considered themselves gay.
I know you make the point in your next para about being out of sync with one's own 'sex', but I want to stress to people that transsexuality, (even though it has the word sexuality in it) is not about sexual practice or sexual orientation (what people commonly call 'sexuality') but rather gender and gender identity.
Transsexual people may express all orientations, (with not a few remaining totally celibate) but the majority are heterosexual.
quote:
Multipara:
I wonder how many of the contributors to this board have actually met and mixed it with a transsexual?
Most likely people have and not even known it! In Channel 10's coverage of this year's Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras, the cameras focussed on a couple walking along happily and the commentators said something twee like: 'Isn't it lovely that heterosexuals are also supporting the mardi gras?' The couple was in fact, a transman and his wife!
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
Man looks at the outward appearance, God looks at the heart.
I would argue that one's feeling of Gender Identity, is on the heart, sometimes despite outward appearance.
To Coot: You did a wonderful job debunking the Evangelical Alliances report. :-)
Something to add to what you wrote.
1. Keith Tiller was told he was transsexual by a medical profession, while suffering depression.
That may really have happened, but it doesn't happen today. When a person presents themselves as transsexual to a Psychiatrist, they have to do reality checks. There are quite a number of people who present themselves as transsexual, who realise they are not, when they take hormone tablets, or start living in role, and realise it is not for them.
So, Keith Tiller could be one of these people, who is now convinced that true transsexuals are the same as him.
2. Press for Change, the transsexual peoples' lobby group, asked ALL the transsexual peoples support groups in the country, whether the Evangelical Alliance had contacted them for research ourposes. The answer was, no.
I was told by one of the leaders of PFC, that she had spoken with one of the EA leaders, to find out why they hadn't consulted transsexuals widely, as they had claimed to have done. Eventually, this guy said, 'We only talk to like-minded people.'
The EA report, was written as a result of researching like-minded people. Trouble is, they've claimed integrity, so they're dishonest too.
I recently read a testimony online, by someone like Keith Tiller. He has a similar story, but the ending is different. He went round doing speaking engagements, saying the kind of things Keith Tiller does, for a few years. Today, he is living as a she, and has realised that God loves her as a woman. If anyone is interested in reading that testimony, I'll try and find it, and post the link.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Steve_R
Shipmate
# 61
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
About intersex people I don't know what gender they "really are" or are meant to be in the eyes of God. (I suppose we'll find out all of this at the General Resurrection.)
Not necessarily, David:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. - Galatians 3:28 ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Love and Kisses, Steve_R
Posts: 990 | From: East Sussex | Registered: May 2001
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Olorin
Shipmate
# 2010
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Posted
As an area of life I've never run into before, or thought about in the slightest, it's been an education to see the reactions to my initial thoughts. I'm not convinced (yet?) but I'm a lot less certain and a lot more confused. (Quack?)
The apparent underlying premis that there is no such thing as a man or woman but that we are all on some vague continuum is an idea I find personally disturbing.
quote:
what's in a man's pants is not the defining characteristic of a man.
It isnt? It seems pretty damn important to me. I suspect most men in the world would agree with me.
This really is a very muddled area.
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I wrestled with God, and lost by two falls & a submission.
Posts: 390 | From: Hammersmith, London | Registered: Dec 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
I'm delighted by the decision. I cannot see what can be gained by the retention of cruel and antiquated laws which do nothing to promote social acceptance and awareness of diversity. A pity that the Government had to wait for Europe to tell them so.
Gay issues, next, please.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Olorin, good on you!
Cheers,
m
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olorin:
As an area of life I've never run into before, or thought about in the slightest, it's been an education to see the reactions to my initial thoughts.
And you have so many opinions.
I too used to have similar views. Then I started reading up in the scientific journals about the genetics and the role of hormones in determining gender. My views underwent a radical change.
bb
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
This is a link to transsexual Christian support site.
http://www.emergenceministries.org/indexframe.html
If you click on the 'Profiles' link, it will take you to 9 testimonies by transsexual Christians. The top one, 'Jackie' is the transsexual woman I mentioned, who reverted back to male, then back again.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olorin:
The apparent underlying premis that there is no such thing as a man or woman but that we are all on some vague continuum is an idea I find personally disturbing.
quote:
what's in a man's pants is not the defining characteristic of a man.
It isnt? It seems pretty damn important to me. I suspect most men in the world would agree with me.
This really is a very muddled area.
If through injury (say, a bad car accident or a criminal assault) you lost your penis, you wouldn't be a woman.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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DonnaPatricia
Shipmate
# 3017
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Posted
Hello, everyone!
This is my first official post on Ship of Fools.
There's a different slant on this, you know. What about a person who went through the whole transsexual transition thing, and then quite a long time after that was all done and dusted, became a Christian. Literally, born-again. Don't you feel, that she must felt no conflict between her gender history and her newfound Love of Jesus?
I'll get to the meat in a moment, but first, I need to clear up a few basics.
Transsexualism is a recognized medical syndrome, a catch-all for a group of illnesses known as Gender Identity Disorders (there are other names, the one I prefer is dysphoria, because of its literal meaning). The kind of person you hear about in the press suffers/has suffered from a particularly nasty form of GID - the kind that leads some people to kill themselves - the profound variety. (BTW, to call such a person a 'transsexual' is about as demeaning as refering to an appendicitis sufferer as 'the appendix in bed 6').
It is curable, but the cost is very, very high. The cure is called triadic therapy, and it consists of taking hormones, living in the social gender role that is right for you, and surgery. No other 'attempt' at a cure has ever worked, including aversion therapy, electroshock, testosterone injections, and psychiatric intervention.
Sexual orientation has nothing to do with gender identity, which in my opinion, is core, fixed, and innate. You will see the same variation in a post-op person's sexuality as you will see in the general population.
So what has all this to do with the Lord? Realistically, absolutely nothing. A person got sick, was healed, lived her life, and later, through deep introspection on the nature of the Universe (cosmology, quantum theory, and comparative anthropology come to mind, for example) came to realise that Christianity was the only thing that made sense. She got 95% of the way there on logic alone, and then *bang*!!! God Spoke! Oh, I don't mean dramatically, with a James Earl Jones' voice. I mean suddenly, she was filled with a truly profound sense of peace and wonder, and the knowledge of the Truth of the Holy Trinity, and the Love of Jesus (if this was paper, it would be tear-stained with joy at this point - I'm crying my eyes out with happiness ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) ).
So what has all this to do with people? Realistically, absolutely everything. A person who gets dumped on by society in general, and by religious organizations such as the Evangelical Alliance, in particular has a much harder time of finding her way to Jesus than someone who is not told she is either a sinner, or mad, or both. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
God is Love, and all shall be saved. Sure, some have it more uphill than others, but that doesn't mean the mountain can't be climbed. I contend, however, that there is no reason for some people to build roadblocks for others.
Yours in Christ,
Donna Patricia ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) (a woman, for that is the correct technical term for me, now that I am cured of profound gender dysphoria).
p.s. if anyone wants to discuss technical details, or needs help dealing with this topic because of a family member, say, please write to me privately. I will be happy to help as much as I can.
Posts: 76 | From: West London | Registered: Jul 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Welcome to the Ship, DonnaPatricia, and thank you for your courageous post.
Reader Alexis
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
DonnaPatricia
Welcome, I've been expecting you! can you answer a question I don't understand. You say that sexual orientation has nothing to do with gender awareness. I can't see that. Men and women who feel secure in their sexual indentity are a majority. But gay men and women are out of kilter with the orientation of their preferences. I imply no criticism or putting down in that comment.
Where gender awareness is concerned, it's only in very recent times that it could have been an issue. The world must have been a hard place before a plethora of psychologists identified so many variations from what the world expects.
In simple terms what is the difference between being gay and alternative gender awareness?
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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DonnaPatricia
Shipmate
# 3017
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Posted
I need to reply to a few things that have been raised on this thread.
Following the 'So what is a Christian response to transsexuals?'link, posted by The Coot, I note:
"That means those who change sex are looking in the wrong direction for the solution to their inner disturbance. The solution isn't physical but psychological: located more in finding their true identity than in getting a body to match how they feel. Ultimately that's only found in the God who made us and gave us the genders we have.
I don't really regret letting students raise knotty problems that totally stump me"
That's a bit like 'I didn't mind getting hit by the car, because it was God's Will'.
I need to pose this question: if you really have found your "true identity", (presumably gender identity) given by God, then is it not your Christian duty to fix your body to match your innate identity, based on Tony Watkins' logic?
And then, Fer Gossake, he goes on to reference Keith Tiller. FYI, transsexualism is the only 'psychiatric' condition that is self-diagnosed. No-one can diagnose another. No matter what the press might say. The purpose of psychiatrists in the equation is to certify a person wholly and utterly sane before irreversible surgery. Mr Tiller never diagnosed (identified) himself as transsexual. He let others do it for him. And now he presents himself as an authority to Christians on the subject. The word 'deluded' springs to mind.
Atticus said:
quote:
With all deference to transexuals, I'm not sure I buy into this whole "allowing people to define themselves" bit. Not having to do with sex necessarily, but I can't define myself as a geriatric woman of African descent just because I want to. I agree that society should not define people for them, but there are facts in this old world of ours, one of the facts is that I am a young white male. I can't change that just because I don't like it.
You are 100% right. I could not define myself as a 'man' just because I had a penis, and I wanted to carry on pretending to be a successful middle-aged white male. The preservation of a 25-year old marriage, the love of family and friends, a quarter of a million dollars in cash (for that is what it cost), were the things I liked. I certainly would not have changed that if I could have found another way.
My options: suicide, dysfunctional vegetable, or transition. Hobson's choice, really.
BTW, an Evangelical Alliance spokesperson said on the telly lately, if a person defines themself as a turnip, does that mean they are a turnip? What absurdity!
Olorin posted:
quote:
The apparent underlying premis that there is no such thing as a man or woman but that we are all on some vague continuum is an idea I find personally disturbing
Too true, Blue!
When I was young, that was all there was. Two possibilities. "God created man and woman". Thing is, scripture did not say God did not create anything else. There's nothing about intersexed genitalia, or mosaic karyotypes (e.g. XYY), or anything else that our more modern knowledge has informed us about.
You bet transsexualism is disturbing. It disturbs many people's world view. But why are not more people disturbed about the fact that their televisions work? The idea that electrons can be here! and there! at the same time to be much stranger than the idea that a foetus' brain structure can be feminised owing to lack of testosterone at 8 weeks, and their bodies masculinised at 11 weeks with a testo wash. (Not saying that is the cause of transsexualism, but it is a prevalent hypothesis).
You know, there are all kinds of people in the world. Heterosexual, homosexual, male, female, white, black, short, tall, thin, fat. Should we care? Surely our mission should be to bring all persons to the Love of Jesus?
Yours in Christ,
Donna Patricia
Posts: 76 | From: West London | Registered: Jul 2002
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Donna
As I've discussed with Christina I've led a far from blameless life in relation to sexual ethics, though I now feel I'm in control. But you talk of giving up a 25 year marriage. Most people who've been together that long are't about tearing off each other's clothes in mad passion. Their lives are about mutual respect, shared concerns, especially if children are part of it, and a shared family identity.
What is morally corrupt about our society is that we no longer heed the taking of an oath. That I'm an apostosate on this issue means that I don't cast any stones. But I genuinely believe in lifelong marriage commitment. Nothing other than abuse is a valid reason to end a 25 year marriage.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Sola Scriptura
Shipmate
# 2229
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Posted
Do we still believe in the Fall? If we do can we assume that the fall had an impact of every aspect of our lives? Did the fall, for instance, damage our physical bodies, our emotions, our relationships with each other and God, and our sexual appetites? If the asnwer is "yes" then such perversions, while very real to the peoiple concerned, are contrary to the natural law. How do we then help these people. Do we condemn them to a loveless, sexless life because we think that same sex unions was not God's intention?
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Used to be Gunner.
Posts: 576 | Registered: Jan 2002
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DonnaPatricia
Shipmate
# 3017
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Posted
Hi PaulTH,
you said:
quote:
Welcome, I've been expecting you!
Thanks for your welcome, but why have you been expecting me?
And then you posed a question:
quote:
In simple terms what is the difference between being gay and alternative gender awareness?
Ummm. Let's work backwards. You talk of "gender awareness". First of all, I'm not sure that a detailed reply to this is properly a topic for this forum. However, the issues of sexuality and gender are important to many Christians, so let's press on. (Help, please, Admins!) All comments from here on in are personal, and just my own opinion. Here's the really short version.
If I had been born in 1990, I would have been in gender counselling by now, and almost certainly on Prostap. When young, I was emotionally and behaviorally a girl. But I was born in 1954 and brought up Roman Catholic. Puberty was an absolute nightmare. I constructed an 'eggshell' of a masculine persona, that was so good I came to believe in it myself. I became wild, and gave up on Faith. I married, and fathered a child. Several years ago, 'she' wanted out, and started kicking the eggshell to bits from the inside. I was a mess. When I realised I had profound GID, I told my wife (who went thermonuclear - although we are the *best* of friends now), and my daughter. This was instructive. After I told her I had GID, I asked her (she was 14 at the time) did she know what it meant. She said, sure, you're transsexual, quite calmly. My jaw dropped. I asked, how long have you known? Oh about two years. That was two years longer than I did!
Gender identity awareness for persons like me is hard, and takes much introspection and then, substantial moral courage to face up to it and to deal with the consequences.
What it boiled down to was the understanding that I was a woman, not a man. No matter what a mirror showed.
I believe that gender identity is fixed, core, and innate, but also that through social conditioning, some people can fool themselves for perhaps decades. After all, I had a penis, I was bloke-shaped, everyone told me I was a boy, and I had societal expectations to fulfil. But my innate gender identity eventually made itself very 'aware' to me!
quote:
Men and women who feel secure in their sexual indentity are a majority. But gay men and women are out of kilter with the orientation of their preferences.
I think you may be mistaking 'I am a man' or 'I am a woman' with 'I fancy men' or 'I fancy women'.
I dunno what a person's 'sex' is. You know, no-body does. There are so many definitions of that word, you wouldn't believe. Chromosomally, there are so many variations. Physically, at birth, there are as well (until the maniac medics start cutting children too young to decide for themselves - and then tell us what gender they are!).
But I do know what gender identity is. It is 'I am a woman'. I do know what sexual orientation is. It is 'I fancy men'.
So why does a man fancy other men? Not a clue. Just a fact of life as far as I'm concerned. And utterly irrevant to the phenomenon of transsexualism.
quote:
The world must have been a hard place before a plethora of psychologists identified so many variations from what the world expects.
You gotta be kidding! With the exception of a few great and good people, thems the enemies! Whio do you think put electrodes across trans girls brains?
You know, there is some physical evidence as to a biological cause for transsexualism. But there is no such direct evidence for the Message.
Do you think, then, that us Christians are candidates for electroshock, for our (apparently) irrational beliefs?
Yours in Christ
Donna Patricia
Posts: 76 | From: West London | Registered: Jul 2002
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DonnaPatricia
Shipmate
# 3017
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GUNNER:
Do we still believe in the Fall? If we do can we assume that the fall had an impact of every aspect of our lives? Did the fall, for instance, damage our physical bodies, our emotions, our relationships with each other and God, and our sexual appetites? If the asnwer is "yes" then such perversions, while very real to the peoiple concerned, are contrary to the natural law. How do we then help these people. Do we condemn them to a loveless, sexless life because we think that same sex unions was not God's intention?
Help me on this one, please.
I'm a woman, with womans' bits, who thinks and loves as a woman. If I love a man, how am I perverted?
If you condemn me to the gender identity as recorded on my birth certificate, then I think you're saying I am a pervert if I love a man. So, logically, I should love a woman.
But I am a woman. So that would make me a pervert if I loved another woman, I guess. (But that is not /this/ issue, /that/ issue is: can true Love exist in a homosexual relationship. Oh, and by the way, my answer is emphatically YES.)
I'll tell you what a pervert is: it is a person who does not Love.
You talk about the 'natural law'. I say to you, the natural law encompasses every one of God's creatures. You ask 'how do we help these people?'. I say to you, recognize that we are all God's children, and act accordingly. A trans woman needs no 'help', she just needs to be treated with the same respect that you would accord to any other person.
Yours in Christ
Donna Patricia
Posts: 76 | From: West London | Registered: Jul 2002
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DonnaPatricia:
Following the 'So what is a Christian response to transsexuals?'link, posted by The Coot
And then, Fer Gossake, he goes on to reference Keith Tiller.
I didn't offer the Tony Watkins link or the Keith Tiller testimony, merely pointed out its potential for misrepresention and damage, and the unlikelihood that Mr Tiller was truly suffering from gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria has been wrongly diagnosed in the past when the person presenting actually has psychiatric and sexuality issues. Hence the importance of the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care, the link to which I posted above.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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DonnaPatricia
Shipmate
# 3017
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH:
Donna
As I've discussed with Christina I've led a far from blameless life in relation to sexual ethics, though I now feel I'm in control. But you talk of giving up a 25 year marriage. Most people who've been together that long are't about tearing off each other's clothes in mad passion. Their lives are about mutual respect, shared concerns, especially if children are part of it, and a shared family identity.
What is morally corrupt about our society is that we no longer heed the taking of an oath. That I'm an apostosate on this issue means that I don't cast any stones. But I genuinely believe in lifelong marriage commitment. Nothing other than abuse is a valid reason to end a 25 year marriage.
Ummmmm. The circumstances were quite different that you seem to assume. The moral and ethical points are very important, I think, so I'll go into some detail.
The substance of your comment is that oaths shall not be broken. I agree.
Before I found Jesus, the wellspring of my personal morality was trust, committment, and loyalty. A 'friend' who broke a committment to me was no longer my friend. In most respects, this wellspring remains the same today.
When I learned that I had GID, I also found that there were some married couples who had managed to remain together. This became a Quest for me. I loved my wife desperately, and I wanted more than anything for us to stay together. I travelled the length and breadth of the country, and met more than a hundred trans people, over a period of perhaps six months. This was during a seriously bad time at home. But I stuck with it.
To no avail. I learned that a) about 30% of women (in marked contrast to the percentage of men, less than 1%) can be bisexual given the right circumstances. And b) all the couples who had stayed togteher became either (a few) celibate or b) entered into a lesbian relationship (the majority). My wife, however, was one of the 70% who are straight. It was simply not tenable for her to be married to a woman. Friends, yes (eventually). Married, no.
And as for committment? I'm off to Reading tomorrow to see about nursing homes for her mum. I was the one who looked after my mother-in-law, who got her place sorted, and so on. Just because we had to get divorced does not mean that my obligations and committments are diminished. And I was doing that in the midst of transition.
I took on those committments (by implication) 25 years ago. I live up to them today. By the same token, she thought she was marrying a bloke. She wasn't. Although that is what *I* thought at the time. I did not consciously mislead her, nor did I consciously mislead myself. That is what I thought then. I was wrong. But I still live up to my obligations.
You are completely correct with regard to society and people's casual disregard of promises. I too think it is dreadful. But in my circumstance, what else would you have had me do, other than to accede to my wife's request for a divorce?
This was before I came to Jesus, but I don't think my actions would have been any different today.
Yours in Christ
Donna Patricia
Posts: 76 | From: West London | Registered: Jul 2002
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DonnaPatricia
Shipmate
# 3017
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Posted
QUOTE]I didn't offer the Tony Watkins link or the Keith Tiller testimony, merely pointed out its potential for misrepresention and damage, and the unlikelihood that Mr Tiller was truly suffering from gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria has been wrongly diagnosed in the past when the person presenting actually has psychiatric and sexuality issues. Hence the importance of the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care, the link to which I posted above.[/QUOTE]
Oops! Sorry, you referenced 'fusilli' and I did not make that clear. My apologies.
Yours in Christ
Donna Patricia
Posts: 76 | From: West London | Registered: Jul 2002
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DonnaPatricia
Shipmate
# 3017
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Santiago:
Forgive the double post. ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
Thank you DonnaPatricia for your courageous debut!
![[Sunny]](graemlins/flowerface.gif)
Thanks ever so, and to others who have echoed the same thought.
But you know, I am a a bit of a loss as to what being a trans woman has got to do with my new-found Love of the Lord!
I mean, transsexuality is just a minor part of the human condition. We live, we get GID, we get fixed, we go on. It's not really important at all, versus compared to declaring one's Love for Jesus!
I still feel that the most important thing is to spread the Good Word.
Yours in Christ,
Donna Patricia
Posts: 76 | From: West London | Registered: Jul 2002
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH:
You say that sexual orientation has nothing to do with gender awareness. I can't see that.
Consider gay female-to-male transsexuals, or transfags as they like to be called. Before transition, they would appear to be part of the people you mention 'who feel secure in their sexual identity (and) are a majority'. Presenting as women they can quite transparently engage with male partners. So their transition is not some convoluted way to 'justify' a homosexual relationship (as some people falsely charge transsexuals). However, what appears to be a standard heterosexual relationship, is not - the transman/transfag (biologically XX) relates as a man to a man. To try to relate as a woman to a man is just one more occasion of deception, deep unhappiness and incongruence for the transfag. Clearly, gender identity is not about who you have sex with. quote:
Men and women who feel secure in their sexual indentity are a majority. But gay men and women are out of kilter with the orientation of their preferences.
I don't want to get bogged down in gay issues, but respectfully, gay men and women are not out of kilter with their orientation, it is precisely because they recognise their orientation that they seek same sex partners. Not expressing the same orientation as the majority is hardly 'out of kilter'.
But I can't stress enough - transsexuals are not some form of extreme 'super-homo' who go to the extent of body modification to have sex with 'same-sex' partners, as I've said before, some are celibate, some heterosexual, some gay, some bisexual. It is fairly distressing and annoying for some straight transsexuals to be lumped together in the umbrella term 'homosexual'. Frankly I find the inclusion of 'T' in GBLT annoying (the existence of G,B,L transsexual people notwithstanding), because it reinforces the false perception that transsexuality is somehow associated with sexual orientation. However, it is the Queer community that is often the most accepting section of society and added to that, some transsexuals sheltered in the Queer community, identifying as 'gay' before they recognised their gender dysphoria.
quote:
Where gender awareness is concerned, it's only in very recent times that it could have been an issue. The world must have been a hard place before a plethora of psychologists identified so many variations from what the world expects.
Transsexuals have always existed. Bill Smith. Alan Hart. Albert Cashier.
quote:
In simple terms what is the difference between being gay and alternative gender awareness?
Perhaps if you consider it in personal terms, the difference will come clanging home to you, 'what is the difference between being straight and a man to you'? Being the man you are now, how would you feel if you had breasts and menstruated? Fairly distressing, no?
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
Hi Coot,
I'm a transsexual woman myself.
The reason for the gblt inclusion has been transsexuals themselves, or rather certain lobby and support groups who have worked for the inclusion.
The ' a transsexual woman is really an ultra-gay man' theory comes from Elizabeth Moberley. She's often quoted by Evangelicals. Again, it shows biased research, because many TS women live in lesbian relationships.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DonnaPatricia:
(BTW, to call such a person a 'transsexual' is about as demeaning as refering to an appendicitis sufferer as 'the appendix in bed 6').
Ah, in a pervious discussion, a few people on the Ship identified themselves as being transsexual/having GID. They said that the term 'transsexual' or 'trans' was what they prefered.
No offence meant.
bb
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
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