Posted                      

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Originally posted by sabine:
Actually, there have been more than two sides discussed on this thread. Some of us acknowledge a serious gun "problem" and some of us acknowledge a regional or other kind of culture. So it's not totally a polatized thread.

But the discussion in the middle of the continuum hasn't really been heard amid the reactive back and forth. That's too bad because polarization and highly emotional responses based on annecdotal reports prevents any productive discussion from happening.

sabine

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Originally posted by Papio:
I don't think all Americans love guns. I think the overwhelming majority of conservative, right-wing Americans love guns with far fewer liberals loving them.

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Originally posted by TubaMirrum:
But perhaps we should start a different thread to talk about gun control and/or other solutions; the ideology here is set in concrete and it's not going to change.

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Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I don't mind the anecdotes; what gets me is the refusal to listen to other points of view. We've been told, point blank, that we all do live in a "gun culture," no matter what we see with our own eyes, or how the people we know live! It's ridiculous.

IOW, our anecdotes don't count; only the "gun culture" anecdotes matter, because there's a point to prove. We all admit that there are some areas in the U.S. that have a "gun culture"; what gets me is the absolute refusal to acknowledge that there are some that don't.

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a large majority of Brits also think that the attitude of the American pro-gun lobby is more than somewhat foolhardy.

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If we add 'some reasonably well-informed Americans are constrained by whatever logic they can muster to acknowledge the near impossibility of doing anything remotely effective to get rid of guns in America', we may be able to put this thing to rest.

And the gun control thread idea is a good one if any one has any motivation left...

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Originally posted by Papio:
*resists...urge...to...insult...Margaret...Thatcher*

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It would have been fascinating to hear him and you in conversation: he was a convinced libertarian as well. Oh what fun that would have been!

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'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe

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Originally posted by Littlelady:
Personally, I don't believe America is a gun culture. I do believe there is a gun culture within America, however, just as I believe there is one within the UK and other countries too. I think gun cultures are those countries that reach for their gun and fire them off in the street when they celebrate something or get pissed off at something (or basically for any reason at all). America isn't remotely like that.

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Well, my little part of it can resemble that description at times, although they do it in their back yards rather than out on the street. TBTG that the local celebratory excesses are usually confined to New Year's Eve. (It tends to happen when people are drinking - booze and guns are a *bad* *bad* combo.)

Charlotte

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

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Originally posted by tclune:
I DO believe that my experience was shared, with appropriate individual variation, by the vast majority of males my age or older, from coast to coast. That's pretty compelling as a national culture to my eyes.

--Tom Clune

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Originally posted by Amazing Grace:

quote:

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Originally posted by Littlelady:
Personally, I don't believe America is a gun culture. I do believe there is a gun culture within America, however, just as I believe there is one within the UK and other countries too. I think gun cultures are those countries that reach for their gun and fire them off in the street when they celebrate something or get pissed off at something (or basically for any reason at all). America isn't remotely like that.

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Well, my little part of it can resemble that description at times, although they do it in their back yards rather than out on the street. TBTG that the local celebratory excesses are usually confined to New Year's Eve. (It tends to happen when people are drinking - booze and guns are a *bad* *bad* combo.)

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Well there you go then! There is a gun culture within America!

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'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe

Posted                       

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Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
TBTG

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Littlelady:

quote:

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Originally posted by TubaMirrum:
But perhaps we should start a different thread to talk about gun control and/or other solutions; the ideology here is set in concrete and it's not going to change.

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Huh?

Personally, I don't believe America is a gun culture. I do believe there is a gun culture within America, however, just as I believe there is one within the UK and other countries too. I think gun cultures are those countries that reach for their gun and fire them off in the street when they celebrate something or get pissed off at something (or basically for any reason at all). America isn't remotely like that.

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Papio:

quote:

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Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
TBTG

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I'm probably dense, but I can't work this one out.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Papio:

quote:

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Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
TBTG

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I'm probably dense, but I can't work this one out.

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Originally posted by Tubimirum:
Sorry. I didn't mean you, Littlelady.

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No worries.

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I still don't quite know what this thread is for, since many people seem bound and determined to come to a pre-ordained conclusion

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Challenging and discussing those pre-ordained conclusions?

Selfishly, I've found the thread really interesting as it has been dealing in perceptions rather than stats. I have found it intriguing to learn how Americans perceive themselves in this context. Although I've spent time in the States and discussed guns endlessly with Americans, it was always me -v- you guys if you like until I began to get a handle on the American perspective. Then, of course, I found out I really enjoyed shooting! So since then I've been having endless discussions with Brits ...

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'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe

Posted                      

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Originally posted by Littlelady:

quote:

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I still don't quite know what this thread is for, since many people seem bound and determined to come to a pre-ordained conclusion

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Challenging and discussing those pre-ordained conclusions?

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Well, maybe. But in that case, it doesn't seem to be working.

quote:

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Selfishly, I've found the thread really interesting as it has been dealing in perceptions rather than stats. I have found it intriguing to learn how Americans perceive themselves in this context. Although I've spent time in the States and discussed guns endlessly with Americans, it was always me -v- you guys if you like until I began to get a handle on the American perspective. Then, of course, I found out I really enjoyed shooting! So since then I've been having endless discussions with Brits ...

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I agree that it's interesting - once a person gives up on actually trying to communicate her point of view.

I totally disagree with tclune, for instance, that playing cowboys and soldiers when you're young constitutes a "gun culture." They were games, and mostly based in history as a matter of fact. My father fought in WWII - but we never had a gun in the house and they just weren't part of our lives in any big way. The emphasis was on obeying authority and school. I shot rifles at camp - bows and arrows, too, and I rode horses. Are we a "horse culture," then?

I used to imagine I was Artemis, Goddess of the Hunt, and went to the local parks to find good wood to make bows and arrows. Does this mean I'm irretrievably violent? Does it mean we live in a "Greek God" culture, or a "bow and arrow" culture, or even in a "hunting culture"? Well, all I can say is that I don't.

(We also played out the story of Jesus Christ when I was a kid, BTW. I guess that makes us a "healing the sick" and a "crucifixion culture," too.)

Posted                       

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Originally posted by Littlelady:

quote:

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Originally posted by Amazing Grace:

quote:

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Originally posted by Littlelady:
Personally, I don't believe America is a gun culture. I do believe there is a gun culture within America, however, just as I believe there is one within the UK and other countries too. I think gun cultures are those countries that reach for their gun and fire them off in the street when they celebrate something or get pissed off at something (or basically for any reason at all). America isn't remotely like that.

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Well, my little part of it can resemble that description at times, although they do it in their back yards rather than out on the street. TBTG that the local celebratory excesses are usually confined to New Year's Eve. (It tends to happen when people are drinking - booze and guns are a *bad* *bad* combo.)

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Well there you go then! There is a gun culture within America!

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Many of them, as it happens! Big place, don't you know .

There's a heavy immigrant population in my nabe, although most of the problems seem to be with native-born Urban Yoot and their older-but-no-wiser counterparts.

As a calibration, my 6'4" burly brother was a bit skeered to be down here when he was in kollidge (when it was very much "the 'hood"), and there was active crack dealing happening a block away about two years before I bought my house. It's gotten a lot less "zesty" as the dealers got shipped out and house values keep going up, up, up.

Charlotte

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

Posted                       

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I have NEVER suggested or thought that every person in the country underwent anything comparable to my cultural experience with guns. I do not deny your experience, and I do not doubt your anecdotes. But it is a straw man to suggest that "culture" only applies to experience universally shared by every single person in the country. I DO believe that my experience was shared, with appropriate individual variation, by the vast majority of males my age or older, from coast to coast. That's pretty compelling as a national culture to my eyes.

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Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Are we a "horse culture," then?

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No, that's Ireland. And I'm very glad, too, because thanks to Ireland being a horse culture I won £170 on the Grand National last weekend.

quote:

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Does this mean I'm irretrievably violent?

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quote:

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Does it mean we live in a "Greek God" culture

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quote:

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or a "bow and arrow" culture, or even in a "hunting culture"?

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Originally posted by tclune:

I find Sabine's notion that every single person in the country must partake in order for something to be part of the American culture not just wrong-headed but absurd.

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Originally posted by sabine:
I'm wondering why the male-oriented, cowboy, gun-bonding-with-dad image keeps coming up in this thread as if it represents all of us?

I don't deny it or it's power for boys and men, and perhaps some women, but I wonder how we can discuss a perceived national gun culture and not use more diverse examples.

sabine

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Littlelady:

quote:

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Originally posted by sabine:
That's too bad because polarization and highly emotional responses based on annecdotal reports prevents any productive discussion from happening.

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Sabine, I disagree really. Most of the contributors to this thread have been Americans and Brits, and I really think you couldn't get two more diverse stands on the issue of guns in the world. We're just at two totally opposite starting points. Given that reality the discussion on here I think has been interesting and informative.

I'm a bit unusual as a Brit because my year in America enabled me to understand where Americans (of all political shades) are coming from on this issue. It helped that I began as someone pro-American and inquisitive - I asked lots of questions and challenged strongly during discussion (mostly with gun-owning, hunting men!). It's perfectly possible to appreciate the opposite view but it takes a long time for people from different ends of the spectrum to reach that position, IMO. To then move on to a discussion about how to tackle the problems arising from gun abuse (on either side of the Atlantic, as it's increasing here) is going to take more than a few pages of a thread on the Ship to achieve!

Also, I think anecdotal reports are actually very relevant to this particular debate since the OP referred to a perception - of America being a gun culture. We can all cite stats and expert opinion to our hearts content but when we are dealing with perceptions then these are based very much upon individual subjective experience. If such is devalued then how can the two overall positions (plus the variations represented within those positions) ever be understood? But perhaps I am missing your point.

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Originally posted by sabine:
I'm sorry my thoughts appear absurd to you.

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There may be two different starting points (I'm not completely on board with that, but for the sake of discussion....), but I think there is middle ground and several of us on this thread are in that middle ground.

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I have no problem with personal experience whatsoever--it is what the story of our lives is made of. But to generalize to a whole nation based on personal experience is an extremely subjective way of looking at things.

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I agree 100%. I remember when I first got to know my Illinois friend of the shooting party story she had some very strange perceptions of Brits. We've been friends now for 10 years and her perceptions have totally changed in that time because I was the first Brit she actually knew and I didn't fit the stereotype (I haven't worn a bowler hat for a very long time!). Countering stereotypes and generalisations can be a useful outcome of the subjective experience. My own subjective experience tells me that! However, it can, as you suggest, also direct perceptions inaccurately.

I smiled when I read tclune’s story about his childhood cowboy games. I played similar games when a child, only mine was cowboys and indians, with appropriate clothing, toy silver pistols which fired ‘caps’ (creating a cool bang) and bows and arrows (with suckers on the end). Loads of children played the cowboys and indians game back then, but they don’t anymore. Does this mean the UK once had a gun culture but now doesn’t? I would say not. Cowboys and indians was just a once fashionable way of playing out the good –v- bad guys scenario that forms the basis for so many childhood games (and the cowboys and indians changed roles very often!). These days it’s all more likely to be played out on the computer. tclune was clearly brought up within a local culture that included guns; I wasn’t, yet I played a gun-based game; someone else in America won’t have experienced guns as part of childhood play and nor will many people in the UK. The marker is in the good –v- bad guys scenario, not the gun play itself IMO.

I would say the same about guns and American culture as a national concept. It is not the guns themselves which are a marker of American culture but the continued ongoing battle, if you like, between the various positions in relation to guns and gun use. That tension is, IMO, indicative of American culture as I perceive it. Alternatively, my own culture has a ‘ban it’ mentality whenever anything awful occurs. I have to say that I envy the freedom or determination or whatever quality it is that Americans have which provides them with the opportunity to thrash out these issues as citizens, rather than being subject to yet more regulation almost as a matter of course. Seeking greater regulation may appear to be a good solution when things are looking bad – and indeed in the case of the availability of guns in America it may be wise – but it is also sometimes a ‘be careful what you wish for’ moment.

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'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe

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Originally posted by tclune:
I apologize for my rude remarks. I was feeling unduly defensive and reacting inappropriately. I have found your commnets gracious and thoughtful, and should have exercised the same care in my posting that you have shown.

--Tom Clune

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quote:

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Originally posted by sabine:
I'm wondering why the male-oriented, cowboy, gun-bonding-with-dad image keeps coming up in this thread as if it represents all of us?

I don't deny it or it's power for boys and men, and perhaps some women, but I wonder how we can discuss a perceived national gun culture and not use more diverse examples.

sabine

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Is there any cocnept of private prosecution in the States? If he could get the money, or find a lawyer willing to work and get a fee from any win, then he could have got the man charged with something - grievous bodily harm or attempted murder, at the very least sued for damages and compensation.

Having a gun for self-defense is one thing. Using that gun in a pre-meditated act (even one of 'justice') is a whole different kettle of fish.

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Democrat leaders in Congress have asked the group to back a bill that would force the states to provide mental health records to the FBI, to prevent disturbed individuals buying guns.

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Originally posted by Twilight:

From the Telegraph:

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Democrat leaders in Congress have asked the group to back a bill that would force the states to provide mental health records to the FBI, to prevent disturbed individuals buying guns.

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I have to say that I envy the freedom or determination or whatever quality it is that Americans have which provides them with the opportunity to thrash out these issues as citizens, rather than being subject to yet more regulation almost as a matter of course.

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It has its merits.


I've come up with a theory about this thread: many of the differences in opinion may result from what might be termed 'historical accidents'.

How about this: when guns were first being mass produced the UK was much further along in the areas of food distribution (minimizing the need to hunt) and law enforcement (minimizing the need for self-protection).

Plus, whatever massacring of indigenous peoples necessary to 'develop' the land had long since been accomplished and therefore no 'gun culture' developed.

The US, not as 'advanced', found guns very convenient resulting in a 'gun culture'.

I expect some historian types will come along and shoot my idea down.

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Which is why, if you want a gun here you need to show a good reason why you need and need to prove that you can be trusted to have it without endangering the public or the peace of the realm - which would include approval from your doctor. It seems that in the US the system works in exactly the opposite - rather than prove you are a fit person to own a gun, the authorities have to show you aren't; rather than you demonstrate a good reason to own a gun, it's assumed simply to have a gun is a good reason.

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Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
ISTM that I saw this summarised on a previous thread by Karl:Liberal Backslider in this manner:

"Americans tend to talk about how much safer they feel if they have a gun, while Brits tend to talk about how much less safe they feel if someone else has a gun".

Probably too much of a generalisation, but it fits the spirit of what was said above.

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Originally posted by OliviaG:

Another historical US point - the militias referred to in the 2nd Amendment would have been state militias, not the national armed forces. It's a states' rights thing, balancing the individual states against the federal government. In theory, if the federal government completely loses the plot, the states can still preserve order. One wonders what it would take, however, to rouse a state militia. OliviaG

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Originally posted by OliviaG:
Oops. My bad. Guess you'll have to shoot me. OliviaG

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Well, if you really think you've done something that requires punishment, I'd be happy to take you to a Quaker Meeting for Business (I was at one that lasted 6 hours over the weekend).

Seriously, though, I wasn't criticising you. The answer to your question is embedded in the thread--I just don't have the time to dig around through seven pages to find it.

So I'll paraphrase: When each state joined the Union, most of them already had militias because they were independent political units prior to joining the union. Those militias continued to operate as more-or-less independent state militas up until the Civil War, and left their states to join a larger body (Union or confederate). Prior to that, they had joined the Continental Army during the Revolutionary War. But when they joined a larger fighting army, they did so at their own discretion. Hence, the "well armed militia" reference.

Eventually, the state milita system morphed into what is now known as the National Guard--there is a National Guard for each state. The National Guards can be called up by a Governor of a state or by the President. The chances of the Governor of one state making war against another is so rare as to be nil--and, it might even be illegal.

That's not to say that a Governor couldn't and hasn't called up the National Guard to restore order within a state.

sabine

[ 25. April 2007, 02:12: Message edited by: sabine ]

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
Isn't this just another way of revealing how different individual liberty is perceived? It goes back to the topic of origins: As I said in another thread weeks ago: America's "experiment" (first time in history) was with personal property. But better said, it was and is, all about individual liberty as compared to corporate liberty. Europe, the UK, et al, are all about corporate liberty. You have to show good reason why the government should allow you to have that gun. But in America, the government doesn't say: "Why do you have that gun?" Rather: "Why are you using that gun HERE?"


To change the perspective of Americans to that of Europeans about guns, you would have to redefine our concepts of individual liberty and ownership of private property.

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Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by JonahMan:

quote:

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Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
Isn't this just another way of revealing how different individual liberty is perceived? It goes back to the topic of origins: As I said in another thread weeks ago: America's "experiment" (first time in history) was with personal property. But better said, it was and is, all about individual liberty as compared to corporate liberty. Europe, the UK, et al, are all about corporate liberty. You have to show good reason why the government should allow you to have that gun. But in America, the government doesn't say: "Why do you have that gun?" Rather: "Why are you using that gun HERE?"


To change the perspective of Americans to that of Europeans about guns, you would have to redefine our concepts of individual liberty and ownership of private property.

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I'm interested to explore how this view squares with the Patriot Act which strikes me as infringing much more on personal liberty than stronger gun controls - I know that there was a lot of opposition to the act and to its continuation a few years later, but nevertheless it did become the law. This isn't a dig - I genuinely don't understand how this happened in a country which prides itself on its democratic principles and upholds the liberties of its citizens.

Jonah

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