|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: How do Muslims see Christians?
|
Plato's cat
Shipmate
# 11158
|
Posted
So how do we?
Not in a positive light I'm afraid.
Evangelical support (moral, political and financial) for the state of Israel poisons attitudes amongst many Muslims against the religion.
And the pope's ill-conceived remarks about Muhammad (pbuh) offended many.
But, as the saying goes, some of my best friends are Christian - and they are good people.
[ 15. June 2016, 18:46: Message edited by: Belisarius ]
Posts: 715 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
Your point is?
More importantly, why should we care?
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Plato's cat
Shipmate
# 11158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Your point is?
More importantly, why should we care?
I refer you to Fr Cuthbert's post on his thread How Christians see Muslims, of the 21st April where he said:
'Thank you everyone for lots of food for thought on this topic which I began - How Christians see Muslims. I'm finding the discussion very interesting. I suppose it is inevitable that there are many different christian answers to the question. Much does seem to depend on how we understand the position of Jesus.
'I don't know Islam very well, and wonder if they would have a large variety of answers to the question 'How do Muslims see Christians?'
I replied there: 'Good idea!'
'I'll start a new thread entitled 'How do Muslims see Christians' then...'
Posts: 715 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Your point is?
More importantly, why should we care?
Manners, manners. This isn't a Hell thread ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tazmeen
Ship's Baha'i
# 12891
|
Posted
Bloody hell, Preacher's Kid...this is a discussion board not a snake pit. Get out if you don't want in
Plato's Cat, I don't know how much milage this thread will have, as I don't think that there are many Muslims on board.
I think the question you pose is a difficult one to find a consensus on. As a Baha'i, I like most people who sincerely describe themselves as Christians. My background is Christian. I would say that the things I find difficult about Christian thought, not the people themselves, is the tendency to take the Bible literally, missing the spiritual clues.
Another thing I don't like is that some denominations are very closed to other religious thought, thereby not recognising the Divine Unity of religions as taught in the Qu'ran and the writings of the Baha'i Faith.
I don't like how in evangelical circles preaching is given, usually saying that Christianity/Jesus is the only way of salvation for a human soul, and then the alter call or call to pray something like a 'sinner's prayer', asking for on the spot forgiveness and conversion without thorough or independent investigation. Evangelical Christianity markets itself as the only way to God , relies heavily on emotionalism and fear and often leads to short term conversions rather than sustained change.
I don't like the doctrine of hell, as described by some as eternal.
I don't like how some people go to church to be told what to believe.
I don't like how Christianity stole Islam's civilizing powers during the Crusades, and yet the majority of people in the West are unaware that it was a Middle Eastern religion that was responsible for all the advancements it acheived, and has the Pope every apologised or thanked Islam?
I hate the fear and dogma that allows the Church to brainwash the African people into not using condoms, instead of promoting abstinence from sex outside of marriage (a much harder job to do, by far.) Allowing the spread of AIDS to devastate a continent.
I don't like the fact that two thirds of the New Testament was written by a man, and yet taken as infallible scripture, unquestionable in authority rather, than as opinion, no matter how exlemporary it may have been at the time. (I'm refering to the work of Paul.)
I don't like how some Christians of different denominations (and this seems to happen across the whole spectrum) fail to recognise each other as brothers.
I don't like how the early church threw out books, causing the books to be damaged or lost, including the remains of one which is dear to me, the Gospel of Mary Magdalene.
I don't like how some churches maintain that Jesus' mother, the Virgin Mary, remained a Virgin for the rest of her life. She was married, for St. Peter's sake!
I don't like how some Christians belive in satan and demons and see his work in every problem they come across, failing to recognise the necessity of personal responsibility and the part that chance plays in all things. And how the belief in demons is a damaging doctrine to those who suffer from mental illnesses, and how it demonises the mentally ill.
It frustrates me that some literally Bible reading Christians expect Jesus to come back out of the sky with a big trumpet in his hand, or, alternatively, wisk the good ones away in a spaceship.
Christianity is cliquey.
Christianity is blinkered.
Christainity is at war with itself and others (Iraq, anyone?)
Christianity is superstitious.
Christianity is divisive.
Christianity is diluted.
Christianity is luke warm.
Christianity is an excuse to get away with child abuse, a 'get out of jail free' card for paedophilic priests.
Christianity is not taking responsibility for searching for the truth anymore. It's going around in circles and blaming it on everyone else.
Now, CHRISTIANS, on the other hand, well, as Ghandi said, I'm not sure I've ever met one. The ones I might have met are just people, so I won't attack them, if I know my Kitab-i-Aqdas from my Book of Certitude.
I guess I'm not gonna get away with this too lightly. What do you really think, Plato's Cat?
Posts: 616 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Your point is?
More importantly, why should we care?
I'm with you. You have a Muslim wanting to start a conversation with Christians about how Muslims see Christians. He's telling us. Why should we care is a perfectly legitimate question.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
GoodCatholicLad
Shipmate
# 9231
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Your point is?
More importantly, why should we care?
I agree I am always hearing this (mamby pamby voice) Oooh do they like us? Why not? Did we hurt their feelings? We are constantly be told about "diversity" and "the marketplace of ideas" and how wonderful it is, and on the face of it, it's fine with me BUT do the Muslims feel the same way? Do they care about our feelings? Are countries with large Muslim populations cater or care about the well being of their Christian, Jewish, Hindu or whatever minorities? This has to go both ways or you have jack.
The Muslim community I find near me are fine with all the above, but they tend to be professionals and have money but what I read about what's going on in France and Holland especially Rotterdam it sounds frightening.
Posts: 1234 | From: San Francisco California | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
matthew_dixon
Shipmate
# 12278
|
Posted
Tazman - you have managed to list a staggering number of all the flaws that Christianity has!
From what I know, most moderate Muslims have definite common cause with the moderate Christians - certainly they do round here - seeing that they have a faith to proclaim, trying to cope in a world of atheists and fundamentalists. Would be interesting for the Muslims on here to say what they think of us.
Posts: 321 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Cuthbert
Shipmate
# 3953
|
Posted
I started the other discussion - How Christians see Muslims.
I'm pleased this one is going now. It helps to know how we see each other, and how we can relate. It helps us be courteous.
In Malaysia it seems some catholic churches are addressing God as Allah. The BBC report here on it.
An interesting but I'd say controversial action. I'd be very hesitant to do that myself.
Posts: 160 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
|
Posted
quote:
orginally ranted by Tazman:
I guess I'm not gonna get away with this too lightly. What do you really think, Plato's Cat?
Well, time will tell whether you get away with it, but this bigotted little tirade has me, for one, very close to issuing my first Hell call.
Since when did were your personal preferences the arbiter of another faith?
--------------------
Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
Allah just means The God as far as I know. similar to the Aramaic word for god (Elah or Alaha) which Jesus probably spoke. Arabic and Aramaic have similar root bases (semitic?).
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lady in red:
Since when did were your personal preferences the arbiter of another faith?
Since the thread title invites non-Christians (specically Muslims) opinion on Christianity, Tazman's expression of her view is a perfectly valid contribution IMO.
I could produce a not dissimilar critique myself - and an even more negative one of Islam. However, that is not the purpose of the thread, so I will just say that, pending all adherents of both faiths seeing the Light of Reason, if you could just get along, it would oblige the rest of us.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tazmeen
Ship's Baha'i
# 12891
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lady in red:
quote:
orginally ranted by Tazman:
I guess I'm not gonna get away with this too lightly. What do you really think, Plato's Cat?
Well, time will tell whether you get away with it, but this bigotted little tirade has me, for one, very close to issuing my first Hell call.
Since when did were your personal preferences the arbiter of another faith?
Arbiter -
noun
1. a person empowered to decide matters at issue; judge; umpire.
2. a person who has the sole or absolute power of judging or determining.
I wasn't aware that it had. They are just opinions. Another criticism I have of all religious people, including and especially Baha'is, because that's who I have most contact with, is that they are very easily offended.
If you don't agree with any of my points, attack them, not me.
And it wasn't a tirade, it was a considered post! Did you consider your before you posted?
bigot
noun [C] DISAPPROVING
a person who has strong, unreasonable beliefs and who thinks that anyone who does not have the same beliefs is wrong.
At what point did you rationally decide that my post was bigoted? At what point did I say: 'That is That, and anyone who disagrees is wrong?'
Which of my points are unreasonable?
Call me to hell, I won't join you.
Posts: 616 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tazman:
Another thing I don't like is that some denominations are very closed to other religious thought, thereby not recognising the Divine Unity of religions as taught in the Qu'ran and the writings of the Baha'i Faith.
Tazman, you raise many interesting points in this post, many of which I agree with, especially that which I quoted. Yet its nothing to do with the topic of this thread. The Divine Unity of religions would make an interesting topic itself, so why not start one and we'll get going on it!
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tazmeen
Ship's Baha'i
# 12891
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lady in red:
Tazman, your post was based on a list of stereotypes that have nothing to do with the way most Christians actually live. It was bloody rude.
You may not be answering it, but that won't stop me issuing it - Welcome to your very own hell-call
At what point did you miss it when i said 'I don't like christianity because...'
and at what point did i labour heavy criticism against the people (christians) themselves?
Enjoy your time in hell.
Posts: 616 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
|
Posted
Yes I did see the 'I don't like Christianity because'... It was what followed the word 'because' that I thought was rude and offensive.
<sigh> I give up. Hell is the right place for this and I'm not going to talk about it anywhere else.
[ 26. May 2009, 09:49: Message edited by: lady in red ]
--------------------
Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tazman:
Christianity is cliquey.
Christianity is blinkered.
Christainity is at war with itself and others (Iraq, anyone?)
Christianity is superstitious.
Christianity is divisive.
Christianity is diluted.
Christianity is luke warm.
Christianity is an excuse to get away with child abuse, a 'get out of jail free' card for paedophilic priests.
Christianity is not taking responsibility for searching for the truth anymore. It's going around in circles and blaming it on everyone else.
I'm not too bothered by what you say about Christianity. (Plenty of people have been sincerely wrong before.)
However, I think this is the bit that lady in red took offence to. This part is a long list of unsubstantiated generalisations.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
We live in an area where Muslims are a small minority. When our son started primary school, there were two Muslims in his class - one boy and one girl. The boy's father approached me at the school gates and said he had been told we were Christians. How often did we go to church? Did our son go to Sunday school? etc. He said he was hoping to encourage his son to be friendly with Christian boys, who would understand the concept of religious obligation, rather than boys from irreligious homes, who wouldn't.
I have been teased by a Muslim friend, wearing the hijab, about the Western oppression of women, who deny themselves food in order to look slim in their jeans, when happy hijab wearers can scoff chocolate to their hearts content.
So, I think the Muslims I know think Christians are nice, but a bit deluded.
Does this get the OP question back on track?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tazman:
Plato's Cat, I don't know how much milage this thread will have, as I don't think that there are many Muslims on board.
Indeed - there have been one or two over the years but Christians have shown ignorance and bigotry towards them - and towards me when I defend them.
So they give up and leave.
So they are quite right to see Christians as ignorant bigots.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
Taz,
Did the universal house of justice ever come back to the issue of contraceptives after it regarded it as being against the spirit of the law of Bahaullah in 1967 ?
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by lady in red:
Tazman, your post was based on a list of stereotypes that have nothing to do with the way most Christians actually live. It was bloody rude.
If you see what Christians have posted about Muslims on other threads, you will see stereotypes that have nothing to do with the way Muslims actually live.
I never said they did. I just don't find it more acceptable when it's directed at Christians.
--------------------
Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
Sorry, missed my edit time, so had to wait, but the next question was -
Why is there one rule for Jews and another rule for all the rest of humanity in regards to enquiring about the Bahai faith and joining it?
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tazmeen
Ship's Baha'i
# 12891
|
Posted
Fletcher C,
I have honestly never heard anything about the UHJ declaring that about contraceptives. But 1967 was way before my time, and a new UHJ is elected regualary (every ? years). This is more recent (1981):
"As to birth control methods, the House of Justice does not wish to comment on the effectiveness or possible hazards of present-day contraceptive agents, and leaves it to individuals to decide what course of action they will take in light of the teachings and the best medical advice available..."
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 347)
No doubt they didn't wish to comment, eh?
As to one rule for Jews, another for any other investigating the Faith, I have no idea. Could you expand?
Lady in Red, I will not be joining you in Hell. I'm sorry that you took such offence, but I think that says more about you, than what I actually said.
Posts: 616 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
Evangelical support (moral, political and financial) for the state of Israel poisons attitudes amongst many Muslims against the religion.
That seems rather odd to me. The number of Christians who support Israel because the Israelis are mostly Jews must be (proportionately) rather small. The number who support Israel because the Palestinians are mostly Muslims must be tiny.
Most people who are pro-Israel that I know, are so for reasons that have nothing to do with religion - which is basically that Israel is more or less in the right (and that making your Palestinian neighbour live in a ghetto is marginally better than wanting to drive your Jewish neighbour into the sea, that exploding a bomb in a civilian area in the hope of killing a terrorist is slightly less wicked than doing so in the hope of killing a lot of civilians...that sort of thing).
If, by accident of history, the Jews were walled up in the West Bank and Gaza, and a number of them wanted to annihilate a Muslim 'Israel' which oppressed them, then almost all of the Christians I know would be just as critically supportive of that Muslim Israel's right to exist as they are of the real Jewish one. It's not about which religion each side follows - its about the politics. Why do the Muslims whom you know think otherwise?
--------------------
"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
From what I know of Bahai (which admittedly is very little), there are plenty of things to complain about in much the same way that there is much to complain about in Christianity. For instance, I think it is still the case that only men can be elected to the House of Justice (although you might be able to correct me on this one) even though the religious tenet suggested gender equality.
I know that in 1995 the house of justice said that if Jews asked about the religion they were to be given the facts, but not engaged in further conversation, that to convert they had to first become Muslims and then become Bahai, and if they were resident in Israel of ever intended to settle in Israel that they could not become converts to Bahai (which seems a little odd seeing that every Jew pretty much has that right and can avail of it if they wish; ie. how can you ever tell if they are going to settle in the future or not?)
A friend of mine was Bahai, which is partly why I know a little (but not a lot), and sadly on the subject of Jews he was deeply anti-semitic and used the faith as back up. Because he was so emphatic that this was Bahai teaching, and because (to be honest) I didn't believe him, I went to look at it for myself. Sadly we parted ways, but it left me with the feeling that Bahai isn't as peaceful and nice as it purports to be.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
the_raptor
Shipmate
# 10533
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Tazman:
Plato's Cat, I don't know how much milage this thread will have, as I don't think that there are many Muslims on board.
Indeed - there have been one or two over the years but Christians have shown ignorance and bigotry towards them - and towards me when I defend them.
So they give up and leave.
So they are quite right to see Christians as ignorant bigots.
Why is the above acceptable, when the below is not?
quote:
"there have been one or two over the years but Black people have shown ignorance and bigotry towards them - and towards me when I defend them.
So they give up and leave.
So they are quite right to see Black people as ignorant bigots."
I suppose it is okay to see Muslims as discrimanationist (™ the_raptor 2009) morons because of the above?
A negative stereotype based on the behaviour of a portion of a "majority" is still FUCKING UNACCEPTABLE DISCRIMINATION. This isn't hard leo, it isn't wrong when it happens to minorities and okay when it happens to majorities. It is always wrong.
quote:
"So they are quite right to see people whose names begin with l as ignorant bigots"
--------------------
Mal: look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?
Zoe: Big damn heroes, sir!
Mal: Ain't we just?
— Firefly
Posts: 3921 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
|
Posted
Essentially this places Christianity beyond criticism. You can't say anything bad about Christianity, because then someone will point out mother Theresa, and he will demand that you don't make generalizations.
This is just silly.
--------------------
Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
|
Posted
quote:
So how do we? Not in a positive light I'm afraid.
But they may not all be as prejudiced as you. I assume that you feel capable of representing the views of all muslims. But I'm sure you do them a disservice in so doing.
quote:
Evangelical support (moral, political and financial) for the state of Israel poisons attitudes amongst many Muslims against the religion.
I can understand your problem here but it is not helped by the rampant anti-semitism of too many islamic leaders.
quote:
And the pope's ill-conceived remarks about Muhammad (pbuh) offended many.
Grow up. It's called free debate.
Do you really think this is about religion? It's about basic civilisation. Like not abusing women, not persecuting homosexuals, freedom of speech.
Do I think all muslims are like that? Of course not. I don't judge a civilisation from a small sample of people I don't like. We have you to do that!
--------------------
Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Plato's cat
Shipmate
# 11158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Cuthbert:
I started the other discussion - How Christians see Muslims.
I'm pleased this one is going now. It helps to know how we see each other, and how we can relate. It helps us be courteous.
In Malaysia it seems some catholic churches are addressing God as Allah. The BBC report here on it.
An interesting but I'd say controversial action. I'd be very hesitant to do that myself.
As an English speaking person, of course you would not normally address God by his Arabic name Allah. But 14 million Christians in the middle east do, and their Bibles begin thus:
In the beginning Allah created the heavens and the earth...
Posts: 715 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Plato's cat
Shipmate
# 11158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
We live in an area where Muslims are a small minority. When our son started primary school, there were two Muslims in his class - one boy and one girl. The boy's father approached me at the school gates and said he had been told we were Christians. How often did we go to church? Did our son go to Sunday school? etc. He said he was hoping to encourage his son to be friendly with Christian boys, who would understand the concept of religious obligation, rather than boys from irreligious homes, who wouldn't.
I have been teased by a Muslim friend, wearing the hijab, about the Western oppression of women, who deny themselves food in order to look slim in their jeans, when happy hijab wearers can scoff chocolate to their hearts content.
So, I think the Muslims I know think Christians are nice, but a bit deluded.
Does this get the OP question back on track?
Nice but deluded? Well the Quran says that they have 'gone astray' in their faith, by worshiping the Messiah. Muslims are unitarians - like Jews (and Jesus!)
Posts: 715 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Plato's cat
Shipmate
# 11158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Tazman:
Plato's Cat, I don't know how much milage this thread will have, as I don't think that there are many Muslims on board.
Indeed - there have been one or two over the years but Christians have shown ignorance and bigotry towards them - and towards me when I defend them.
So they give up and leave.
So they are quite right to see Christians as ignorant bigots.
I don't agree that Christians per se are bigots. I am constantly debating with Christians and the real bigots (in my experience) are the hate filed fundamentalists who seem to be everywhere these days (I'm in London).
But Catholics (Anglican and RC) are usually much more reasonable and pleasent to talk to, and many liberals don't believe Jesus was God anyway so our differences on Christology at least are minimal.
Posts: 715 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Plato's cat
Shipmate
# 11158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
quote:
So how do we? Not in a positive light I'm afraid.
But they may not all be as prejudiced as you. I assume that you feel capable of representing the views of all muslims. But I'm sure you do them a disservice in so doing.
quote:
Evangelical support (moral, political and financial) for the state of Israel poisons attitudes amongst many Muslims against the religion.
I can understand your problem here but it is not helped by the rampant anti-semitism of too many islamic leaders.
quote:
And the pope's ill-conceived remarks about Muhammad (pbuh) offended many.
Grow up. It's called free debate.
Do you really think this is about religion? It's about basic civilisation. Like not abusing women, not persecuting homosexuals, freedom of speech.
Do I think all muslims are like that? Of course not. I don't judge a civilisation from a small sample of people I don't like. We have you to do that!
Of course I'm not speaking on behalf of all Muslims, but I'm trying in my small way to give you some feedback as to how many of us view Christians. I was a committed Christian myself once upon at time so I am in the unusal position of having a view from both sides.
Your attitude is sadly typical of many extreme Christians when you tell us to grow up and accept insults to our religion. We will not. We do not worship at the shine of unrestricted free speech.
Many in the West today belive it is OK to insult Jesus or Muhammad or whoever, but it is for some reason not OK to insult a black man for being black. Muslims are more consistent. We should show respect for others' beliefs and not be offensive and immature.
[ 26. May 2009, 17:10: Message edited by: Plato's cat ]
Posts: 715 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pottage
Shipmate
# 9529
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
As an English speaking person, of course you would not normally address God by his Arabic name Allah. But 14 million Christians in the middle east do, and their Bibles begin thus:
In the beginning Allah created the heavens and the earth...
Yes, but... Allah is the word used by Arabic speakers of all faiths when referring to God. It is also the word used by Muslims when speaking of God regardless of whether they are speaking (or even can speak) Arabic. Because of this association I understand that Arabic-speaking Christians sometimes use a different formulation - Allah al ab - to reflect the fact that they think of God in a different way to their Muslim neighbours.
Because of that Muslim context it is disingenuous to ignore the fact that when someone is not speaking in Arabic but nevertheless chooses to use "Allah" as the word for God in their prayers they are clearly making some kind of point or engaged in some kind of stunt.
Back to OP, I can't help but think that we're just going to get a lot of anecdotes describing every possible feeling that (different) Muslims may hold in relation to Christians from warm friendliness and respect through to bitter hatred. I can't help but know, because I watch the news and because Google is my friend, that there are millions of people who profess Islam who would happily see me dead because I go to church. On the other hand one of the several Muslims I work with, who is conspicuously observant, was most put out when his little boy didn't get a speaking part in the Nativity play at his primary school last December.
Posts: 701 | From: middle England | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Plato's cat
Shipmate
# 11158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pottage:
quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
As an English speaking person, of course you would not normally address God by his Arabic name Allah. But 14 million Christians in the middle east do, and their Bibles begin thus:
In the beginning Allah created the heavens and the earth...
Yes, but... Allah is the word used by Arabic speakers of all faiths when referring to God. It is also the word used by Muslims when speaking of God regardless of whether they are speaking (or even can speak) Arabic. Because of this association I understand that Arabic-speaking Christians sometimes use a different formulation - Allah al ab - to reflect the fact that they think of God in a different way to their Muslim neighbours.
Because of that Muslim context it is disingenuous to ignore the fact that when someone is not speaking in Arabic but nevertheless chooses to use "Allah" as the word for God in their prayers they are clearly making some kind of point or engaged in some kind of stunt.
Back to OP, I can't help but think that we're just going to get a lot of anecdotes describing every possible feeling that (different) Muslims may hold in relation to Christians from warm friendliness and respect through to bitter hatred. I can't help but know, because I watch the news and because Google is my friend, that there are millions of people who profess Islam who would happily see me dead because I go to church. On the other hand one of the several Muslims I work with, who is conspicuously observant, was most put out when his little boy didn't get a speaking part in the Nativity play at his primary school last December.
yes if you watch Western TV and google is your friend (!) you might well end up with the silly idea that Muslims are out to get you!
The reality is as you find it in real life: your work friend and his concern about the nativity play...
Posts: 715 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sarah G
Shipmate
# 11669
|
Posted
Welcome back after too long ashore!
One of the questions that pops up from time to time on Islamic discussion fora is the issue of whether Christians go to Hell. On the whole, despite a couple of dissenters who quote a range of pro-christian Quranic verses, the very large majority say we are, and their quotes and comments on abrogation seem to me to win the argument.
So even if Muslims don't much care for Christians, they can be reassured that our worst aspects will be paid for in Hell.
Would the above be a fair summary?
Posts: 514 | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
Tazman
Your first post on this thread was a rant. Further it was a rant which had nothing to do with OP.
As we make clear, Hell is the refuge of the irascible, the contentious and the just plain pissed off. Got a complaint, a rant or a personal argument to settle? Do it there.
And if you don't like to post in Hell, that does not give you freedom to rant in Purgatory. Please don't do that again. If you want to start a discussion in Purgatory about your experiences and criticisms of the Christian faith, please feel free to do that. But remember Purgatory is for serious discussion. OPs should be worded accordingly.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Plato's cat
Shipmate
# 11158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
Welcome back after too long ashore!
One of the questions that pops up from time to time on Islamic discussion fora is the issue of whether Christians go to Hell. On the whole, despite a couple of dissenters who quote a range of pro-christian Quranic verses, the very large majority say we are, and their quotes and comments on abrogation seem to me to win the argument.
So even if Muslims don't much care for Christians, they can be reassured that our worst aspects will be paid for in Hell.
Would the above be a fair summary?
thanks for the welcome back!
Your post is not really relevant to the thread, but, yes, I would think that most Muslims would expect that Christians would end up in hell.
But I leave such matters to the God who is known as the most compassionate, the most merciful .
Posts: 715 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pottage
Shipmate
# 9529
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
yes if you watch Western TV and google is your friend (!) you might well end up with the silly idea that Muslims are out to get you!
The reality is as you find it in real life: your work friend and his concern about the nativity play...
No, self evidently the reality is both of those positions and many others besides.
I'm quite a news junkie and I watch Al Jazeera's news coverage too. Even though it doesn't reflect well on Islam and isn't the face that you would like your faith to present to the world it's a fact that plenty of violent extreme Muslims would cheerfully see me dead. I know and accept this to be true. But it doesn't mean I think ALL Muslims are out to get me. I don't think MOST, or even (proportionally to their many millions) MANY Muslims are out to get me.
I remember our trying to think this through at housegroup a year or so ago and concluding that many Muslims would actually be likely to be suspicious of Christians more than anything else. They might know, for instance, that Christians regard themselves as having a Commission to go out into the world and make new Christians and that would seem threatening.
Posts: 701 | From: middle England | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
Why isn't it relevant?
You want to discuss how Muslims see Christians. Apparently, most of them view Christians as damned. I'm not exactly sure what you want to debate.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
Forgive me for linking to a translation of Koranic verses - I understand that it is considered inappropriate to translate in some Islamic traditions, however we have little choice if we are to discuss it within an English speaking community.
This page contains translations of various statements in the Koran regarding people of the book.
How is:
quote:
2:62. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Consistent with the idea that Christian go to hell by default ?
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Plato's cat
Shipmate
# 11158
|
Posted
This may be a good time (for those who wish) to read a recent lecture delivered at Kings College London about Muslim perceptions of Western religious intention, entitled
'America as a Jihad State: Middle Eastern perceptions of modern American theopolitics'
The author, Tim Winter, is a friend of mine who lectures in Islamic Studies at Cambridge University (he is an English convert to Islam and is also known as Abdal-Hakim Murad).
I'm not expecting you to agree or disagree with his opinions, but perhaps gain an insight into how much of the world sees the American Christian scene.
Blogging theology
Posts: 715 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Plato's cat
Shipmate
# 11158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pottage:
quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
yes if you watch Western TV and google is your friend (!) you might well end up with the silly idea that Muslims are out to get you!
The reality is as you find it in real life: your work friend and his concern about the nativity play...
No, self evidently the reality is both of those positions and many others besides.
I'm quite a news junkie and I watch Al Jazeera's news coverage too. Even though it doesn't reflect well on Islam and isn't the face that you would like your faith to present to the world it's a fact that plenty of violent extreme Muslims would cheerfully see me dead. I know and accept this to be true. But it doesn't mean I think ALL Muslims are out to get me. I don't think MOST, or even (proportionally to their many millions) MANY Muslims are out to get me.
I remember our trying to think this through at housegroup a year or so ago and concluding that many Muslims would actually be likely to be suspicious of Christians more than anything else. They might know, for instance, that Christians regard themselves as having a Commission to go out into the world and make new Christians and that would seem threatening.
My friend, you have nothing to fear from Muslims. We are not out to get you whatever you may think.
If you were to get to know Muslims in your community I'm sure you will find this to be true. Once again, please don't rely on the media for the truth about Islam (or much else?). Create your own life experiences based on personal contacts with real people.
[ 26. May 2009, 18:19: Message edited by: Plato's cat ]
Posts: 715 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
|
Posted
quote:
Your attitude is sadly typical of many extreme Christians when you tell us to grow up and accept insults to our religion. We will not. We do not worship at the shine of unrestricted free speech.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Extreme christian!
Actually I no longer self-identify as a christian although that may not be final.
I remember the debate about the Pope's statement and I think it is juvenile to take this as an insult as opposed to an opinion which you are free to disagree with. It is not in the same class as Rushdie's book which I would agree was an insult. I'm not sure that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion so enthusiastically distributed by nobody except Nazis and muslims is exactly academic history.
My main objection is that you have your view of christians conditioned by a small group of zionist fundies (who I think are moronic) and the leader of the RCC who is nothing to do with me, although in this case I would defend his speech, whilst not necessarily agreeing with it.
--------------------
Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tazmeen
Ship's Baha'i
# 12891
|
Posted
Barnabas: My apologies. It wasn't supposed to sound rantish. I was trying to engage with the question in the OP, unfortunately it came across as a very personal list of criticisms rather than a view of how I see Christians themselves. I am actually at a christian college p/t, and my peers are actually the lovliest people i get to spend any of my time with. Some of them may believe in demons and satan and some of them may believe that Christ will return in a big white cloud, but as actual human beings, they are among the best. The world would be a poorer place without them.
Fletcher C: I don't know, I have never heard anything like that and my gut instinct is that it is a nonsense, for some reason made up, by whoever. It just doesn't ring true with the sort of advice I hear from the UHJ. As to your Baha'i friend being anti semitic ![[Frown]](frown.gif) and at the same time i hope nobody thinks that i am anti christian because that is absolutely and emphatically not true.
This is all giving me a bit of a headache, I think I'm going to disappear back to the private boards where religion isn't the subject of discussion. Safer territory, I think. :/
Posts: 616 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
I'm not expecting you to agree or disagree with his opinions, but perhaps gain an insight into how much of the world sees the American Christian scene.
Blogging theology
Thanks for a fascinating read!
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pottage
Shipmate
# 9529
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
My friend, you have nothing to fear from Muslims. We are not out to get you whatever you may think.
If you were to get to know Muslims in your community I'm sure you will find this to be true. Once again, please don't rely on the media for the truth about Islam (or much else?). Create your own life experiences based on personal contacts with real people.
I'm not your friend. I meet Muslims every day (save for some Sundays, admittedly). I have Muslim neighbours and colleagues, and spend some time in a local school which is overwhelmingly Muslim. I don't fear or distrust any of those people. I like some, dislike some, and have a hard time finding anything in common with quite a few. Pretty much the same as at church in fact. On the other hand a classmate of my youngest daughter lost her father to a bomb in Afghansitan last year, so I don't fool myself that every Muslim on the planet is equally amiable. YMMV.
Posts: 701 | From: middle England | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
One of the interesting aspects of public sector employment in Canada is the presence of folk practising different religions and feeling comfortable with doing so-- friends inform me that for many years, the pressure to be conformist in general deportment is far greater with private sector employers-- although this situation seems to have been changed for the better. Working alongside Muslims for a number of years has exposed me to a wide variety of religious belief and practice in Islam, all the way from cosmopolitan Turks telling me that they are from Constantinople to certifiably psychotic Afghans.
Generally, my Muslim friends assume that Xns are Xn because of their ancestry, as they are because of theirs, and are perplexed by missionary activity, either from the Xn side or their own. Converts, other than those for marriage, are viewed with friendly perplexity.
On the grace in public thread, I noted that an Ismaili friend told me that he very much likes it when his children see Xns saying grace, as it instructs them that public religious observance is not peculiar to their faith, and that others who take their religion seriously are to be respected.
This brought to mind an observation which can be found in my preface to my Camino MW reports. After my return from Santiago, several Muslim colleaques quite perked up when they had heard that I had done what they called the Christian hajj. Small bundles of loukum and teeth-shivering pastries appear on my desk at Easter. Christmas cards appeared from a variety of Muslim colleagues. A Pathan colleague saw me in a restaurant and insisted that I join his family, instructing his scarfed daughters to shake my hand. I have even been dragged in to speak with an Ismaili youth group on pilgrimage and fasting among Christians.
I found that my pilgrimage experience seemed to intrigue Muslims. Conferring with a Muslim professor at a local university, he told me that western Christians were generally not regarded as serious in their religious practice-- our churches were not full, were rarely frequented for daily prayers, and fasting is not very visible; indeed, they assume that it does not happen at all. The substantial social contribution was regarded favourably, as was friendliness to other religions and hospitality to refugees, but... As well, that The Issue (as a certain Dead Horse topic is known among Anglicans) is discussed at all much discredits us. He further noted that Muslims and eastern Christians understood each other, and common patterns of fasting and alms-giving made clear to both sides who which individuals were serious in religious practice and who was a hypocrite.
He also noted that he found differences in small-town and large-city perceptions. In smaller centres, church life is a social and community activity and Muslims will see Christian life in that context. In cities, Christianity is often only seen in the form of television evangelists. If it be a comfort, he told me, they view most of their own imams as equally batty and equally to be distrusted.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
I must say its a pleasure to hear some reasonable comments about muslim people coming from non-muslims. In England, there are many muslims and I suspect this is why many of you are reasonable about them. When you rub shoulders with people, you realize they are just people.
In Australia, people are much more bigoted about Muslims but I suspect its because we don't have many yet...
Plato, I think your opening post was about politics, not religion. As a christian in Australia, I have nothing to do with the middle east ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Funny you said you were a christian and are now a muslim. opposite happened to me ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
