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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Father's Day and other such secular marketing-fests in church
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
We'll have a said Eucharist Monday morning, using the propers for Independence Day -- about a dozen people will show up.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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wrinkley
Apprentice
# 7673
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Posted
There are some denominations that do not have even a cross,or statues because they feel that is idolatry. I do not think an
American flag in an American church on July 4, can be called an idol. Anymore than standing for the National Anthem could be called secular song.
We have an American flag, a ECUSA flag and statues in our church. We do not worship them, but they are reminders, symbols. Stained glass windows depicting the saints, Bible scenes, and in the case of Coventry Cathedral,a motorcycle, are not idols but reminders, symbles.
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If I can see, If I can feel, If I can hear, And if I can speak,breath, and if I have love, there is nothing else that I need
Posts: 13 | From: usa | Registered: Jun 2004
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by wrinkley:
There are some denominations that do not have even a cross,or statues because they feel that is idolatry. I do not think an
American flag in an American church on July 4, can be called an idol. Anymore than standing for the National Anthem could be called secular song.
Erm,why wouldn't it be called a secular song? 'Secular' just was means 'worldly' - how much more worldly can you get than a country which is, geographically, part of the world? As far as I'm concerned, a national flag is an idol, pure and simple, and bringing it into church does not make it any less profane than it was to begin with.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark:
Just wondering - do Antipodean Anglican churches celebrate Harvest Festival? And does it get in the way of Lent?
Just saw this. I grew up in what was then a perfectly ordinary small Anglican church in Sydney. It would now be regarded as a bit elevated. We had Harvest Sunday then in autumn, probably March/April. I can't remember the date. I haven't seen a reference to it for many years but it was celebrated in a Uniting Church Mission congregation that I saw, about 15 years ago. This church requested tinned food as evidence of the festival as that could easily be stored for later distribution.
I now attend one of the relatively few up the candle churches here, and have been there about 18 months. That gives two autumns for celebrations of harvest Festival, but we haven't done that.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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NatDogg
Shipmate
# 14347
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by wrinkley:
There are some denominations that do not have even a cross,or statues because they feel that is idolatry. I do not think an
American flag in an American church on July 4, can be called an idol. Anymore than standing for the National Anthem could be called secular song.
Erm,why wouldn't it be called a secular song? 'Secular' just was means 'worldly' - how much more worldly can you get than a country which is, geographically, part of the world? As far as I'm concerned, a national flag is an idol, pure and simple, and bringing it into church does not make it any less profane than it was to begin with.
Doesn't it all depend on that you define as worshipping? Isn't, by definition, an idol an object that is worshipped? When taken from that aspect, I don't see how a national flag starts out as an idol. Now, what you do with the flag when you bring it into the church, that's another matter. . .
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
IMNSHO things go beyond the line when the nation becomes the subject of the day instead of God ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif) , or when the nation is depicted as faultless and deserving of our uncritical adoration. That kind of thing pisses me off to an extreme. And I love my country.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I am a bit leary of the Church being too hand-in-glove with the State - especially a godless Republic - so next Sunday will be interesting. I will be firmly in Trinity II mode and some folks will be expecting me to be in 'God bless America' mode. It will be interesting to see how it turns out. If my sense of humour is up to snuff the last hymn will be "God the All-Terrible" to the tune old Russian National Anthem. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
I sometimes wonder if I could cure them of singing the National Anthem the same way as I got rid of the fourth verse of America - by singing the original words to the tune loudly. Three weeks of "God save the Queen" got rid of the fourth verse of America. A bawdy boozing song should work even faster...
PD
[ 27. June 2011, 01:59: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
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Ascension-ite
Shipmate
# 1985
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Posted
I'm not terribly opposed to a flag being in the church, as we have an American flag and an Episcopal Church flag which are in upright stands on either side of the chancel arch, where they remain. I'm also not terribly opposed to singing the national anthem on the 4th, although it's rather militaristic, and makes me a little uncomfortable. I think that is where it should end. Having someone hold the flag in the center of the chancel during the singing of the national anthem seems to be one step too far. It would appear as though we were singing praises to the flag. I just have a hard time with any State/Church connection. I'm not about to pledge any allegiance to any state in the House of God.
Posts: 318 | From: Old Dominion | Registered: Dec 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I am a bit leary of the Church being too hand-in-glove with the State - especially a godless Republic - so next Sunday will be interesting. I will be firmly in Trinity II mode and some folks will be expecting me to be in 'God bless America' mode.
I think the best way to handle the Fourth is the same way Memorial Day and Veterans Day can be treated; turn them all into a kind of All Souls' Day, with special intercessions for those who serve.
The Navy Hymn ("Eternal Father, strong to save") is a great hymn to use (if the Army and the Air Force don't whine too much). It is Trinitarian times two. It appeals to the Creator-God and it places the Son at creation, Jesus on the water, rebuking the storm, and asleep in Mark's boat. And, it brings to tears to the eyes.
It is number 512 in the 1940 Hymnal and 608 in the 1982 Hymnal. The alternate verses two and three provided in number 513 in the 1940 Hymnal gut the original sense and turn it into a kind of itinerary prayer.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
The Church flag and the American flag have been at the back of the church ever since we moved, which is a situation I - ahem - contrived to bring about by grumbling they were in the way wherever someone dumped them in the quire and sanctuary. They eventually made their way to the back which was where I wanted them.
As for singing the National Anthem after Mass on the Sunday before the Fourth. I allow it after the Recessional Hymn; however, some of my choices for final hymn have been a bit interesting over the last five years. One it worked out that O God of earth and altar fitted with the lessons for the day, which fits in rather more closely with my feelings about earthly governments.
Inevitably, anywhere that has a fairly strong Low Church tradition - or even the memory of one - you are going to get the flag thing on the Fourth or thereabouts. I have concluded that it is an ordinance of man to be endured for the Lord's sake. That said, I have no problem praying for those who govern, though the 1928 BCP's O Lord, save the state is a bit Orwellian for my taste.
PD
[ 27. June 2011, 02:57: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
TSA: Thank you for reminding me of "Eternal Father, Strong to Save" at this time of year.
A parish in a resort area had this hymn as a sobering reminder at the beginning of holiday season (July): there were always drownings. The hymn not only functioned as prayer and praise but also a "Let's be careful out there" message.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Oh yes, Baptist Trainfan ... in reply to your comment up-thread ... I'm not saying that an interest in the Trinity is a purely Orthodox concern ... but there does appear to have been a renewed interest in the doctrine among various folk in Baptist/independent circles ... as well as Cappadocian Christology and, indeed, sacramental theology.
I think we're living in a time where there's a lot of cross-over and debate. I'm not sure I see much evidence of a renewed interest in the Trinity and so on in the pews though ... but perhaps these things do lend themselves to more rarefied academic debate. Really, they should be thrashed out and lived out among the people in the churches - and that applies to all of us, whatever our tradition or Tradition.
I do think, though, that people like Nigel Wright have developed a strong interest in these things as a counter-balance to some of the frothy stuff that has come in through the charismatic renewal. If the renewal itself stimulates and encourages that, then all to the good ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Certainly my views - especially over such issues as the Social Nature of the Trinity, and seeing the Trinity as a dynamic relationship rather than as simply a static ontology - have changed over recent years. I have tried to communicate and apply them to my congregation, especially in regard to our interaction with each other and the wider community.
As I did this Trinity Sunday - although fathers did get a brief lookin!
[ 27. June 2011, 12:09: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
It's "celebrate America" Sunday next week at the church I sing in. I usually skip patriotic holiday Sundays (Memorial Day in May, Independence Day in July, Veterans Day in October). This time I'm stuck, the solo I was supposed to do yesterday got moved to next week because of rehearsal scheduling, there will be at least one song unrelated to America. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I told the music director I dislike songs celebrating war in church, which is what a lot of "patriotic" songs are. He said we won't do any of them, we will do God Bless America. (He does a mixture of patriotic and God-aware songs, unlike a Baptist church I visited last summer where what was billed as a church worship service came across to me as patriotic rally.)
I don't sing songs about war in church, so I remain seated and silent when in church they sing about bombs bursting in air, so what if it's the national anthem, it's not even superficially a God-aware song. But I've never (yet) heard the national anthem in an Episcopal or Methodist church. Yea!
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I don't sing songs about war in church...
Me neither.
But, then I got to wondering about setting bits of Joshua to music. Hmmmm.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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NatDogg
Shipmate
# 14347
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I don't sing songs about war in church...
Me neither.
But, then I got to wondering about setting bits of Joshua to music. Hmmmm.
Or the Psalms for that matter.
Posts: 139 | Registered: Dec 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Which is the hymn about bombs bursting? I've met some odd hymns over the years, including some with some fairly repulsive imagery, but can't recall that one.
quote:
"By the light of burning martyrs,
Christ, Thy bleeding feet we track,
Toiling up new Calv’ries ever
with the cross that turns not back;"
is fairly bad, and
quote:
'Pierce my ear Lord',
is just odd. But which is the bombs one?
I share the unease about too much nationalism in church. At least 'God save the queen' is a prayer, but we don't normally have things like 'Rule Britannia' or 'Land of hope and glory' in services.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Which is the hymn about bombs bursting?
This one.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Ah. I see the problem. I never knew those were the words. We don't have much occasion to encounter them, though most of us would recognise the tune.
Belle I can see why you're also querying whether those words really qualify as a hymn at all. As a foreigner, I can say that I don't think they do. But then, I'm a foreigner. It's much more of a problem for you.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Enoch, Pigwidgeon gave you short measure, leaving out the central stanzas which contain these irenic sentiments: quote:
[The blood of the foe’s haughty host] has washed out their foul footsteps’ pollution. / No refuge could save the hireling and slave / From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave.
More details here.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Shadowhund
Shipmate
# 9175
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Posted
The strangest incident I've ever encountered regarding secular holidays in church is where a priest and a soprano sang a duet of "A Whole New World" from Disney's Aladdin in honor of Columbus Day. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"
A.N. Wilson
Posts: 3788 | From: Your Disquieted Conscience | Registered: Mar 2005
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NatDogg
Shipmate
# 14347
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowhund:
The strangest incident I've ever encountered regarding secular holidays in church is where a priest and a soprano sang a duet of "A Whole New World" from Disney's Aladdin in honor of Columbus Day.
Shadowhund, you've got to be kidding us, no?!
I was drinking water and spit it clear cross the room when I read your post. That is, er, um. . . interesting. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Shadowhund
Shipmate
# 9175
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Posted
I kid you not! The duet took place after communion and before the final collect.
Exactly how this liturgical travesty came to pass I do not know. Strangely enough, they actually sang it well, though they should have done it during a coffee hour.
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"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"
A.N. Wilson
Posts: 3788 | From: Your Disquieted Conscience | Registered: Mar 2005
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
The Navy Hymn ("Eternal Father, strong to save") is a great hymn to use (if the Army and the Air Force don't whine too much).
Indeed. It is certainly a stand-by for us on "national" weekends, although keep in mind that the Gospel of Peter being called out onto the water is going to come up later in July or August. We chose to save it for then, this year.
In the National Songs section at the back of our shiny new (5 years old) ELCA hymnal, we have This is my song, O God of all the nations, set to the tune Finlandia. It's basically a nod to "country" in general. People usually love the tune enough that they don't mind it taking up one of the hymn slots on the weekend nearest the Fourth of July.
We also use Before you, Lord, we bow by Francis Scott Key, set to the ever-popular Darwall's 148th. Once again, the tune helps to "sell" this one.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
In the National Songs section at the back of our shiny new (5 years old) ELCA hymnal, we have This is my song, O God of all the nations, set to the tune Finlandia. It's basically a nod to "country" in general. People usually love the tune enough that they don't mind it taking up one of the hymn slots on the weekend nearest the Fourth of July.
We also use Before you, Lord, we bow by Francis Scott Key, set to the ever-popular Darwall's 148th. Once again, the tune helps to "sell" this one.
You made me look.
Episcopal has a section "national songs":
"God Bless Our Native Land"
"My Country 'Tis of Thee" (mentions God in 4th verse)
"God of Our Fathers, Whose Almighty Hand"
America the Beautiful,
and the National Anthem ("bombs bursting in air.")
Methodist hymnal has only
"My Country 'Tis of Thee" and
America the Beautiful.
(I'm looking at the specifically national songs. "O God of every nation" is also in both hymnals.)
[ 28. June 2011, 02:50: Message edited by: Belle Ringer ]
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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scuffleball
Shipmate
# 16480
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Posted
Being British I find the American custom of putting the national flag in or on a church unusual. Likewise, in Britain we don't really have denominational flags, if that's what you mean by "church flag." The only real exception would be Northern Ireland, and that has more to do with sectarianism than anything else, I think.
I had never seen "Eternal Father..." used as a naval hymn. I did, however, hear a version on "A Prairie Home Companion" that changed the latter verses to make reference to the land and air, which absolutely butchered the trinitarian theme.
The only day British churches get even slightly nationalistic is on Remembrance Day. I don't think this is simply due to military families - our college chapel celebrates it, and we have no one in the military. Remembrance Day, the national anthem tends to be sung. Unlike the US anthem, however, the British one is a prayer. Given the furore surrounding the singing of "I vow to thee" I doubt any of the peculiarities suggested above would get much truck here.
I find it interesting that you consider the US "godless". Although the US state is more secular, I get the impression that US culture and politics are far more effected by religion than the British, and that in the US there is a far bigger divide between denominations, and between religious and non-religious people. We wouldn't have collects for national days as most British holidays have religious origins any way.
For reference, popular hymns for Remembrance day are "O God our help in ages past" and "Rock of Ages."
Getting back to the original topic, for what Sundays have we developed detailed liturgies completely divorced from any prayer book - be it 1662, CW or whatever? "Nine Lessons and Carols," Remembrance Day and Christingle all spring to mind.
In a similar vein, what customs have sprung up surrounding religious events? I am thinking of funeral wakes, for instance, which have always made me feel slightly uncomfortable.
[ 28. June 2011, 08:35: Message edited by: scuffleball ]
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SPK: I also plan to create ... a Calvinist Ordinariate
ken: I thought it was called Taize?
Posts: 272 | Registered: Jun 2011
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
Getting back to the original topic, for what Sundays have we developed detailed liturgies completely divorced from any prayer book - be it 1662, CW or whatever? "Nine Lessons and Carols," Remembrance Day and Christingle all spring to mind.
Not totally divorced from any prayer book. The three you mention are all included in CW Times and Seasons.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Scuffleball, I'm not sure we quite as innocent of caesaropapism as you suggest. After all, we have an established church. Many churches have the royal arms displayed in them. Although the union flag is rarely, if ever, displayed inside a church, many churches do have old regimental banners gathering dust and moth in them, and I've certainly seen the flag of St George flown outdoors from a church flag pole. Wells Cathedral regularly flies what appears to be the Saltire, which is incongruous until one realises that it's dedicated to St Andrew.
I agree with your discomfort with 'I vow to thee'. I've sometimes said that I find "And there's another country I've heard of long ago" one of the saddest lines in any hymn.
Having seen, for the first time, yesterday, the words of the US national anthem, I'd be very uncomfortable with singing it as part of a church service which one hopes is addressed to God, rather than in a wholly secular civic setting. That's what I meant when I said "Ah, I see the problem".
My own view is that it is right that the state should acknowledge the sovereignty of God. Since it is framed as a prayer, I'm comfortable singing 'God save the Queen' as a hymn. I agree with the fact that the Queen is crowned in a Christian ceremony. Although the church has problems from being established, I think the idea of an apostate state is a lot worse. But one does have to be ever aware that it is the state that is accountable to God and not vice versa. It is blasphemy when it enlists God as its servant.
I also, though this may be a digression, find it more comfortable that we owe our allegiance to a person, another human being. I know this will sound very odd to transatlantic shipmates, but the idea of opening each school day by swearing allegiance to a flag has to me a distinct whiff of idolatry.
As for 'Eternal Father', I've always known this as the sailors' hymn, but not exclusively for the RN. It belongs to all those that go down to the sea in ships and make their business upon the great waters.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
We had Trinity at my parish. I think if'n one wants to have Fathers' Day in church, one can put on a Dads' luncheon after divine worship.
Zach
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Joan_of_Quark
Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
Getting back to the original topic, for what Sundays have we developed detailed liturgies completely divorced from any prayer book - be it 1662, CW or whatever? "Nine Lessons and Carols," Remembrance Day and Christingle all spring to mind.
Not totally divorced from any prayer book. The three you mention are all included in CW Times and Seasons.
Ah yes, the Commemoration of the Mutilation of the Oranges. Where would we be without that?
PS Thanks Lothlorien for answering my query on Southern Hemisphere harvests!
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"I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!"
further quarkiness
Posts: 1025 | From: The Book Depository | Registered: Jul 2005
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
Being British I find the American custom of putting the national flag in or on a church unusual.
I read somewhere that putting the US national flag in church started in Lutheran churches during the first (?) world war because many Lutheran churches conducted their services in German (a rare few still do occasionally) and wanted to make clear they weren't sympathizers of the enemy.
Don't know if this is THE start of national flag in churches, but it makes sense as A start.
Add the myth that THE reason people moved to the New World was to worship God, and you can too easily slide into sort of blending God and country into being the same topic, in which case why wouldn't you have the national flag in church? Sigh.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Its not in Times & Seasons AFAIR but that "fathers" liturgy I posted does seem to be authorised in the CofE. I think its from New Patterns for Worship. Which I can't say I ever liled much, it seems a little wishy-washy to be.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Its not in Times & Seasons AFAIR but that "fathers" liturgy I posted does seem to be authorised in the CofE. I think its from New Patterns for Worship. Which I can't say I ever liled much, it seems a little wishy-washy to be.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Yes, it is available from the C of E's website here
Oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Yes, it is available from the C of E's website here
Oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
Wherefore so disappointed? It seems slightly innocuous, a little wordy, very 'CofE' but otherwise fine. Not worth the dreaded roll of the eyes surely?
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Makes it so much harder to resist the "joys" of Fathers' Day when there's an authorised service - which means another day to lose the lectionary. Mind you, looking at that service, the CofE is trying to make sure that the service doesn't go too far adrift.
I like that the copyright information gave the blessing or other ending as "for a memorial service".
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Email received today from a local church:
quote:
We invite all those who are in Scouts, or who were Veterans of the military, civil servants firefighters, police & EMS workers and active duty military to join our processional as we begin worship services on Sunday, July 3rd. Please wear your uniform if possible. We will file into the sanctuary carrying the Texas flag and the American flag...as we celebrate Independence Day here at [church name].
At least it's not JUST military.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
[A couple of random reactions, Belle Ringer: (1) I'll bet they didn't include fire fighters etc until after 9/11. Americans became much more aware and respectful of first-responders after that. (2) I think if a church is going to do this kind of procession it's not inappropriate to include Scouts, but it does remind me of how the Scouters in my family complained about Scouts being viewed in some quarters as a sort of para-military group.]
Anyway, I'm not surprised by the church email Belle Ringer posted. It strikes me as very Southern, although probably not exclusively Southern. Our interim rector, who is from the South, included remarks about Memorial Day in her sermon the last Sunday of May. I missed it, but she commented to me afterwards about how she thinks it's "important to include holidays in the sermon." She's actually, in most things liturgical, higher up the candle than we are used to, so this was a bit of a surprise. I'm very interested in seeing what this Sunday brings, sermon- and music-wise. If there's anything unusual, I'll report back!
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
...(1) I'll bet they didn't include fire fighters etc until after 9/11. Americans became much more aware and respectful of first-responders after that. (2) I think if a church is going to do this kind of procession it's not inappropriate to include Scouts, but it does remind me of how the Scouters in my family complained about Scouts being viewed in some quarters as a sort of para-military group.
This is the first year they've honored other than military and veterans. (This is the first year they've had a procession; in the past they've had veterans stand and each state their unit and location of any war service.) But this year is the 10th anniversary of 9/11, so including firefighters might have seemed, as you say, natural. That raises the issue - if you go beyond military, which is a group with clear boundary lines, who else do you include and where do you stop?
Weren't the boy scouts modeled in a sense on military, and then girl scouts modeled on boy scouts? I thought that was the history, not paramilitary but the uniforms, having ranks (2nd class, 1st class), etc. I suppose scouts are thought of as a patriotic organization. They make a pledge to God and country.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Baden-Powell certainly modelled his boy scouts as though it were a kind of auxiliary armed force capable of surviving in enemy territory sort of thing. So even though they are not usually trained to fight in any way, there is clearly still a 'military' angle.
This includes parades, which of course they perform in many Anglican churches without any particular patriotic occasion being involved.
(I understand that during the War this confused the Nazis who imagined them as a dangerous youth combat movement, and compiled dossiers on how they would deal with them post-invasion )
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
Getting back to the original topic, for what Sundays have we developed detailed liturgies completely divorced from any prayer book - be it 1662, CW or whatever? "Nine Lessons and Carols," Remembrance Day and Christingle all spring to mind.
Not totally divorced from any prayer book. The three you mention are all included in CW Times and Seasons.
But they all predate that book -- they developed separately from authorised liturgy. Christingle I believe stems from the Children's Society. Nine Lessons and Carols is Eric Milner-White in the 1920s (building on others I believe).
A facebook friend has just criticised Mission Praise for containing plenty of Graham Kendrick but not God Save the Queen. -- To me that's a benefit of MP not a defect; there are plenty of things I might critise MP for but not omitting GStQ!
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Are you sure? I think it's 194.
Another benefit bites the dust.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
GSTW isn't in "Songs of Fluffiness", so that's safe.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
GSTW? God save the Workers?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
GSTW? God save the Workers?
I had thought it might be "God Save the Windsors."
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
I was more by the fact that it apparently needs to be in a hymnal to be sung. I've heard it only a handful of times in my life, and I can probably sing two verses without looking.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I think Barbara Windsor is quite sympathetic to Christianity, though I don't know whether she is 'saved' yet.
How about a remake of the Carry On series with Barbara and the cast of Rev? Carry on in the Vestry for starters?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Christingle I believe stems from the Children's Society.
Originally it was a Moravian custom, but the Children's Society have more recently promoted it as a Christmas-time fund-raiser.
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
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