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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: What turns people off about church?
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
Just to clarify, I'm not interested in discussing things like the (alleged) increasing secularization of society, Dawkins, etc, here. I'm asking what so many churches seem to be doing that keeps people away from them.
Recently I read an article in The Lutheran (available only to subscribers, so I can't post a link) in which a Texas pastor said that the biggest reason for non-church attendance is the people in the churches. He goes on to list many un-Christian behaviors that, many unchurched folks tell him, keep people away. "Church" people, it seemed, were not behaving in a very Christian manner, and visitors picked that up.
This struck a chord with what I've heard. For example, yesterday I was at a meeting of a neighborhood organization when the subject came up concerning our using various local churches to host events. The consensus was that it was the churches' board members (not clergy) who were frequently so difficult to work with. Some are downright nasty.
At this point one woman, who directs a large social service agency in the area, remarked about how this was one reason why "organized religion" was going down the toilet. Everyone (except yours-truly) agreed.
So, what do you think? What, if anything, are the churches doing that so turns people off?
[title formatting]
[ 10. April 2013, 05:41: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
The bad things that churches do can be summarised as bore people or simply not address the issues that they are really concerned about.
The good thing that can empty a church is a genuine challenge to sort your life out, and often the given reason for dropping out of a church is actually a cover for the fact that a person is on the run from God.
Of course there are churches out there that deserve to die - the sooner the better IMNSHO - but let's not assume that the punter is always right.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Hezekiah
Apprentice
# 17157
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Posted
Guitars
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2 Kings 3:27
Posts: 36 | Registered: Jun 2012
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hezekiah:
Guitars
Yep. And drums--and shitty music played shittily in general.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
And organs. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Thing is, the answers to this question are as variable as the people who are put off church by something.
For my part, I feel compelled, once again, to revisit a letter to Viz' Letterbocks:
"I saw a sign outside a church saying 'Church - it may surprise you!'. They were right - I went along and it was far more tedious than I'd imagined."
Been there, several t-shirts.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Squirrel:
This struck a chord with what I've heard. For example, yesterday I was at a meeting of a neighborhood organization when the subject came up concerning our using various local churches to host events. The consensus was that it was the churches' board members (not clergy) who were frequently so difficult to work with. Some are downright nasty.
I had to laugh. I remember having a conversation with a Priest-in-Charge of a multi-church benefice who used to avoid one of the parishoners when he saw them coming up the street since they were a nasty piece work. Certainly the beahviour of some within the church does a lot to put people of about Church. Hypocrisy is never a beautiful trait.
To answer your question - IMHO a lack of clarity of message and the Church sticking to the position it adopts can be damaging. If the Church holds a position but the messages that come out are entirely mixed then it does not endear confidence and respect and works to distance people from a Church. (some of the Churches I have greatest respect for are those that disagree with me on almost every point, but they sincerely hold their view consistantly and logically that you can't help but admire and be drawn to them.)
A lack of works isn't helpful either.
There are a whole range of things that put people of about Church, and they are not the same things in parish after parish, with one parish being beset with one problem, another another. It can also be highly damaging to generalise about groups of people when focussing on trying to engage people with the Church, nothing gets my back up more than Churches believing that, and following suit and completely changing their worship style, 'young people' like more charismatic worship.
If the Church wants to attract rather than put people off church then it needs to be genuinely local focussed without the over-bearing of Diocese and Province all ways breathing down it's back and saying how best to do things (the sharing of best-practice is great though!) sincerely live out it's Christian life, publicly accept that it has problems, but also firmly stick to the points it holds corporately.
My twopence worth...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Members of the congregation who glare at people with children.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Oh, I forgot: people. People definitely keep other people away from church.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Church just doesn't engage people today. I'm not sure that there are specific attributes, which determine this, but more an overall feeling about it.
I suppose it often seems stuffy, up its own bottom, out of touch, preachy, pompous, tedious, and so on.
I know that it can also be inspiring and beautiful as well. I think it will survive because of this.
But I think there are wider issues as well. We are breaking up various corporate structures today - thus patriarchy is fragmenting; capitalism is fiercely criticized; large companies are scrutinized for their relations with ordinary people; political parties are treated with great suspicion. Churches are not immune from this. I don't know how you characterize it, I suppose a deep suspicion of anything corporate.
[ 17. December 2012, 10:50: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Church just doesn't engage people today. I'm not sure that there are specific attributes, which determine this, but more an overall feeling about it.
I suppose it often seems stuffy, up its own bottom, out of touch, preachy, pompous, tedious, and so on.
I know that it can also be inspiring and beautiful as well. I think it will survive because of this.
What he said.
I wonder if anyone reading this thread is a real ale drinker? Probably, because we're mostly people of taste, discernment and discretion on here (apart from the people who aren't, of course).
Anyone ever had their choice of beer and/or pub criticised by someone else as being "an old man's drink/pub"? I have.
I think the church in some places suffers the same image problem in the UK. It's a thing that normal people Don't Do. It's what little old ladies and men in tweed jackets do on Sunday mornings, while normal people are in bed, reading the papers over coffee and croissants, or blearily accompanying their children to footy practice. The only people under 60 doing it are the Ivan Jelical types who no bugger wants to emulate.
I don't think the problem is that churches put people off - yeah, that does happen, I've seen it; but the vast majority never come near enough to be put off in the first place. The OP's question should have been asked a generation or two ago. The questions perhaps we should ask today are:
1. what put people's parents/grandparents/great grandparents off?
2. have we changed that?
3. how can we enable people to know, and care, that we've changed it?
[ 17. December 2012, 10:55: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
In a British context - since obviously the US is very different - I doubt if it will be changed. As I said, I think church will not disappear, but I think many people will find different ways of expressing their spiritual connections. I have many friends who have a spiritual/religious sensibility, some of them a very deep one, but for most of them, the idea of church would fill them with deep horror, that is, tedium.
Perhaps a really radical reshaping of church might have some effect, but then it would no longer be church, would it?
For example, I go to a regular meditation group, which is devotional in its own strange way, and where people of different faiths can join in. I like it.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Karl wrote:
1. what put people's parents/grandparents/great grandparents off? 2. have we changed that? 3. how can we enable people to know, and care, that we've changed it?
1. Round about 1800, many working class people were put off by the poshness of church, and the link between squire and vicar. The middle class hung on more, partly because of respectability.
2. To a degree. It's less posh, I suppose.
3. First, you have to get them to care. They don't.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
Wasn't it Marcus Borg who said that the Bible has driven more people away from the church than anything else? Not what it says in the bible, but what the church expects us to believe about the bible.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
3. First, you have to get them to care. They don't.
But it's truly amazing how many people care about the building the minute you publicly suggest that you may sell of the building, or make a change to it so that you may better use it to the needs of the public (IME it being a case of the attachment to the building as it is outweighing the benefits that change would bring) or even jsut knock the whole thing down.
How does each local Church tap into that depth of feeling people have for these buildings to engage them with the message we seek to tell them about?
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
In a British context - since obviously the US is very different - I doubt if it will be changed. As I said, I think church will not disappear, but I think many people will find different ways of expressing their spiritual connections. I have many friends who have a spiritual/religious sensibility, some of them a very deep one, but for most of them, the idea of church would fill them with deep horror, that is, tedium.
Yes. Tedium. One of the values of a printed liturgy is you know how much longer it's going to drone on for.
quote:
Perhaps a really radical reshaping of church might have some effect, but then it would no longer be church, would it?
Yes, it would. It could even be more church than what often goes under that name is now. Certainly I'm of the view that most of the changes that do get made - guitars replacing organs, chairs replacing pews, tinkering with the liturgy, are tiny cosmetic changes compared with what I think the church needs to consider in order to survive. It's not so much about change, though, in this sense, but about plurality.
quote:
For example, I go to a regular meditation group, which is devotional in its own strange way, and where people of different faiths can join in. I like it.
Mrs KLB and I are considering throwing in our lot completely (save the odd thing) with a FE group that some people would barely consider church at all, but which for us at any rate fits my previous paragraph.
I think there's some thread drift here for which I'm primarily responsible (mea culpa, mea maxima, maxima culpa); it's asking what puts people in the church off, rather than what fails to put people outside the church "on", if that makes sense, which it doesn't.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
I've said this in the past on similar threads but for what it's worth...while I'd been edging towards unbelief for a while it was politics that first made me decide to leave the church after roughly 30 years of worship.
The two big issues of church contention being homosexuality and woman priests just seemed so ludicrously NOT A PRIORITY compared to other serious issues in the world.
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
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Posted
The thing that has destroyed the church I serve is the few self-appointed who burn the phone lines and fuel conversation at the local cafe about how bad things are all the time. They cannot be made happy and therefore spread their unhappiness everywhere they go.
Example: A previous minister worked hard to get a new family into the church, and they became faithful attenders. Then a death in the family generated visits from the congregation to the family to bring food and condolences. A perpetually unhappy member took her food, and remarked, "I don't know why you are even thinking about letting our minister do the funeral." She proceeded then to unload on them all the things she thought wrong with the pastor who had worked with them through their time of crisis.
Needless to say after the funeral the family went to another congregation in a nearby community because they didn't want to be a part of a church that talked of their ministers the way that woman had.
This same small group of malcontents is very racist, and when blacks or Hispanics attend they are vocal about it, complete with epithets to accompany their deeply prejudicial feelings.
Members have a lot to do with the perception of a church in the community, influencing whether people want to come or stay. Invite people in the community to the church here and they are likely to say, "Why would I want to come there?" They've heard.
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I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.
Posts: 715 | From: Somewhere in the Heart of Dixie | Registered: Oct 2007
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
I've said this in the past on similar threads but for what it's worth...while I'd been edging towards unbelief for a while it was politics that first made me decide to leave the church after roughly 30 years of worship.
The two big issues of church contention being homosexuality and woman priests just seemed so ludicrously NOT A PRIORITY compared to other serious issues in the world.
The problem is one of perception; certainly as far as the women priests issue is concerned, although the governing structures of the CofE have put a certain amount of time into the issue, it's not actually been a large matter for most parishes, or even actually occupied a lot of synods' time. It's just that the press likes a good fight, and this has been a very passionate fight. So we get labelled with spending a lot of time on the issue, which is deeply unfair.
And actually the gay issue has probably absorbed even less synodical time; my bishop appears to have adopted a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy, and most of the diocese has gone along with that. It is a 'hot button' issue in a lot of churches, but it's probably a lot less visible than you think. Again, the press has got hold of it because it makes good copy - the partisans on both sides are inevitably campaigning about it. But actually on the ground - I doubt the average church mentions it as often as once a year. But it makes a good excuse for some people to avoid the church, which is what they really want.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I have many friends who have a spiritual/religious sensibility, some of them a very deep one, but for most of them, the idea of church would fill them with deep horror, that is, tedium.
Yet some of these people probably will think nothing of pedalling for 45 minutes on a stationary exercise bike in some fitness club. That (the exercise of) religion has been placed into the entertainment category is both ridiculous and deadly.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Mrs KLB and I are considering throwing in our lot completely (save the odd thing) with a FE group that some people would barely consider church at all, but which for us at any rate fits my previous paragraph.
I'm tending to the other end of the spectrum myself, but I'm not surprised. Church will necessarily "radicalise" in various ways, since it has lost its position as cultural mainstream.
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
The two big issues of church contention being homosexuality and woman priests just seemed so ludicrously NOT A PRIORITY compared to other serious issues in the world.
If this was really the problem, then undoubtedly you could have found a church that already agreed with your preferences in these matters. That you didn't bother to hunt for one, or that you wouldn't travel "that far" to one, or that you couldn't hold on to your faith until you found a workable solution, that is the real problem.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
My response is grounded in the Church of England, and I can’t speak for anyone else…
I remember making a similar point at our MMA council meeting a few years ago. I said that I felt there was nothing coming from the Church’s leadership that inspired people. The clergy consensus present (A Rector, A Vicar and a Curate) was that we were in a time where just “holding the line” was as good as could be expected.
Archbishop Rowan Williams was an excellent academic theologian, but I’ve always believed that as far as motivating people outside of the Church was concerned, he was quite ineffective.
I think we need to start out by making the point about science and religion being compatible. As far as I’m concerned, that is the deal-breaker for most people. I am convinced that most people automatically assume that a belief in Christianity is akin to believing in a young Earth and Creationism, and therefore they reject the faith, and don’t come to Church. My evidence is purely anecdotal, but it seems to be a mainstream view expressed on most TV programmes, by many social commentators, entertainers, comedians and the like.
I accept it is probably a gross oversimplification, but it’s what I feel.
Perhaps we need to get onto the front-foot, make people aware that science is right but that it can only explain so much, such as the “how” not the “why”. If we were to do that, it should be done in layman’s language, because as soon as we start caveating the debate with philosophical issues, many people will end up discouraged, and will stay away from faith, and, in turn, the church.
I am firmly convinced we need a great communicator, who can talk to journalists, be on the news, and get out into the media, and spread a simple message that the biggest perceived hurdle to faith in these modern times is something that can be removed.
I am sure that there will be a great many voices who dissent from that approach, however there are times to be philosophical, inclusive and collegiate, and times to produce a simple clear message for a specific audience, and shout it out articulately and decisively. In Archbishop Rowan, we have had the former, and I believe it is time to try the latter.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
In a non conformist parish in Lancashire, it was the custom to have a parish meal once a year.
Potato pie was a speciality.
Some people used to take their own potato pie.
So the saying went:
One Church but not one potato pie.
Another way of putting it, the congregation was not an entity but fragmented. And it showed.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
FWIW, here's my take on my most recent effort to do church (and I was up to my eyebrows in it for quite a while, serving on and heading boards and committees):
1. empty, vacuous preaching
2. empty, vacuous pastoral input
3. divvying up substantial sums of money on dozens and dozens of little historical pet "causes" to virtually no effect when said monies, put to use on a handul of causes, could actually make a significant difference
4. "Favorite" parishioners steering the church's efforts in everything -- worship styles to congregational policies
5. Sexism -- the outright and totally unjustified firing of a genius female associate pastor
6. Too much pastoral control in the hands of a head pastor of a congregational-style church
7. a totally unjustified & overly high opinion of the congregation by the congregation
8. A complete inability to fathom taking church out beyond its four walls and door. If you're there, you "count;" if you're not there, you're invisible.
9. Fucking spiritual (I don't think) country club more willing to write checks than roll up sleeves.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
At a cheese'n'wine before we even started going to the church we now attend, a total stranger from that church asked me "Have you been baptised in the Spirit?"
Maybe it's the Charismatic equivalent of "Do you come here often?" I can't imagine it encourages new blood.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The social context of church can be a problem. False concern for others that is detected as insincere and formulaic responses to real human problems. Some of us don't want strangers showing their concern by praying for us and doubt that the mind of God is swayed anyway. If our personal info is known by others, it still belongs to us, and the modern tendency for prayer to mention people by name may be highly troubling. Also, just because we attend, or try to attend, does not mean people believe the 'party line' or exactly as everyone else. Often strident views appear designed to convince the talker not the listener. Most of us also shelter secret heresies and heterodox ideas. Finally, I don't think there is actually such a thing as a strong Christian. There are simply people trying.
--on the trivial, may I always be spared country gospel music and its terrible evils like Shine Jesus Shine.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
I still sing in a church choir and the thing which is increasingly close to driving me away is the level of presumption regarding our time. The commitment is big anyway but then, on top of that, there is an extra practice or an extra choral service or a concert on the last Saturday before Christmas that we are just expected to prioritise over anything else. Some prior consultation before they are stuck in the choir diary would be nice.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
--on the trivial, may I always be spared country gospel music and its terrible evils like Shine Jesus Shine.
Amen!
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Sighthound
Shipmate
# 15185
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Posted
I would suggest that many people today are (for whatever reason) commitment-phobic. I am myself to a large extent. Generally I had much rather pop into an open church to have a quiet word with God - and leave a donation - than attend a service. Though I have attended more services in the last couple of years than in the previous twenty.
Secondly, church used to be at the centre of the community. There aren't really communities like there used to be. There are individuals, and there are groups, but not really communities in the old sense of the word. People are rootless and move about too much - this is the result of the 'development' of capitalism.
Finally, there didn't use to be that much going on on a Sunday, so going off to church was actually a form of entertainment. At worst you might meet a few friends and enjoy a sing. Nowadays there are a hundred forms of entertainment to be had without even leaving the home. Many of them are free, or effectively so. And of course there are even more options for those venturing through the front door, including the most successful new 'religion' of modern times - retail therapy.
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Supporter of Tia Greyhound and Lurcher Rescue.http://tiagreyhounds.org/
Posts: 168 | From: England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
I still sing in a church choir... The commitment is big anyway but then, on top of that, there is an extra practice or an extra choral service or a concert on the last Saturday before Christmas ...
I recently read an on-line article that mentioned choir members as an example of people minimally contributing to the church, failing to carry their share of the work.
Hey, I'll drop choir, it's an awful lot of time to spend on something judged "not much of a contribution."
I suspect the real problem is people think choirs just show up ten minutes early Sunday morning. The whole evening per week work of it (plus sometimes running through the music at home, plus extra at Advent/Christmas and Lent/Easter seasons) is out of sight. At church, like on some jobs, face time is more important than actual work contributed.
But as to the previous generation and church-going, in USA society "required" church-going if you were going to be viewed as a good person. My first real job was for a major charity and we were told we had to attend church weekly because not going could affect the charity's reputation. That social pressure is gone. Church membership of that generation was distorted. No point measuring today against a distorted past.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilyswinburne
Shipmate
# 12934
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Posted
I am a single person (American) who was not raised in any religion but who became interested in religion in my 30s and visited several local churches. What I was looking for was:
- a meaningful spiritual practice that brought me closer to God
- interesting and thoughtful companionship
What I found was:
- "uplifting" weekly services that were more like a performance for which you were expected to pledge a regular part of your income
- "Pick a party"!
- Family events that were much more like a party than a service
- Lack of serious engagement with any sort of theological or scientific claims, but merely doing church because of some sort of inertia
- Bridge and/or knitting groups
Lily
Posts: 126 | From: California | Registered: Aug 2007
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
In an Anglican context, the Evangelicals are not really declining whilst traditionalists and others are facing the largest decline. (Unless you take into account that static numbers in a growing population is still a decline. But even with this taken into account the Evos are declining at a slower rate than the rest of the CofE). As these churches are the likeliest to use guitars and drims and (a few years ago) sing Shine Jesus Shine you cannot seriously attribute this style of music to being what puts people off, no matter how much you personally dislike it. It could put some people off, but elitist attitude to music could also put other people off.
But not all of them. Congregations in cathedrals, where the traditional music is done best, are growing.
So there are arguments from both sides. Personally I don't think it is music of any type that puts people off at all.
Instead of looking at worship type, like I have above, you look at the type of community people live in you get a different picture. The proportion of people who attend church is higher in rural areas than it is in urban ones. Which reverses the above demographic, as the successful Evo churches tend to be in urban areas.
I have the greatest of admiration for Anglican Priests who work in rural areas, taking several services in several churches spread over a large area each Sunday. The congergation in each may be small, but overall they are a larger part of their communities than those where the population is more compact.
But they already have a community, people in rural areas know who their neighbours are. You socialise with your neighbours because they are the only people you meet.
Urban communities are different. People socialise with friends from work, form groups with a common interest. There are communities, but they are diverse, and not geographic.
As I said earlier, Evangelical churches are holding their own number wisein the CofE.
Anglican Evangelical churches tend to be in urban areas.
Urban areas are the places where most of the decline is happening.
I think it is clear that there must be some non evangelical churches in urban areas which are really losing the numbers.
What do the two groups, the rural churches and the urban evos have in common? Community.
The rural church is already set in a geographical community. Evngelical churches are reaching out trying to create communities, HTB's Marriage course is probably more important than Alpha, in that it reaches out into the needs of people.
Si it isn't about music, traditional or contemporary. It isn't about worship style high or low. These are not the problem.
But I've now wasted a lot of your time reading this talking about what the problem is not without addressing the problem.
What turns people off about church?
Unfriendliness, not caring about other people and self-centredness.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
[QUOTE]If this was really the problem, then undoubtedly you could have found a church that already agreed with your preferences in these matters. That you didn't bother to hunt for one, or that you wouldn't travel "that far" to one, or that you couldn't hold on to your faith until you found a workable solution, that is the real problem.
I did in fact go to a local friends meeting house, (Quakers) for a while. In fact I still go because my 9 year old son enjoys the childrens meeting. The fact is that it was the annoyance with the church that finally shook me out of habbit and complacency and got me to examine exactly why I was going and what I really believed.
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
It may sound quite shallow, but I think that successful churches are very often ones in which many of the congregation view their involvement as a form of recreation and social outlet. This doesn't mean they aren't serious about the sacramental life of the Church or insincere about religion. However, they find it more fun and fulfilling than not to serve at the altar, sing in the choir, be sides-persons, and attend the weekly and yearly round of church services. Some may even make a bit of a hobby out of going to the patronals, May festivals, etc of other parishes, often as part of a little ad hoc "delegation" from their home parish. Maybe this works best in parishes with significant liturgical and musical programmes, not sure, as I can only speak from a high church Anglican perspective.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
4. "Favorite" parishioners steering the church's efforts in everything -- worship styles to congregational policies
That's my experience. The choir master and Reader of an old church of mine were powerful in the church and while most people in the church were quite happy with things like special songs for the children or anything new these two created all manner of bother for the priests. Generally the priests I knew there were totally sound, but were beset by the pair, who are conservative anglo-catholics.
In my experience priests are sound, it's certain members of the congregation who are the problem.
Actually after time I saw a lot of good in the pair in question and in what they liked. It's good that they were confident in tradition. It's just the arsey way they went about it at times.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I don't think people are 'put off' by church. They've just never considered it.
Turn the question round - how would you reply, if you are a churchgoer, to someone who comes up and says to you, 'What puts you off from becoming a freemason/joining our amateur dramatic group/neighborhood watch?'
I think this is right - for whatever reason, it simply doesn't occur to people that church might be something worthwhile, or relevant, or important for them.
The trouble with conversations like this is it can all seem a bit like guesswork, based on our own thoughts about what turns us off. I also wonder if there's an amount of projection going on as well - us projecting onto others the things we don't like about church? Is anyone aware of any (recent) research that's been done on this at all?
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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trouty
Shipmate
# 13497
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Posted
The length is a big factor. Anything over an hour is too long imo. Our church is frequently 90 minutes, sometimes, like yesterday, a bit more. Anyone going for the first time, especially if they have kids with them, will very possibly not return.
Posts: 205 | From: Somewhere out there | Registered: Mar 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I don't think people are 'put off' by church. They've just never considered it.
Turn the question round - how would you reply, if you are a churchgoer, to someone who comes up and says to you, 'What puts you off from becoming a freemason/joining our amateur dramatic group/neighborhood watch?'
Dead right. At the risk of repeating myself, but then why not, I grew up in tough M/c area, where nobody was religious. My parents and their friends were not; my grandparents and their friends were not. Why would they be? One of my grandfathers used to curse clergymen, and said his main memory of them was in WWI, praying for them as they went over the top. Gee, thanks, padre; that went well.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
I think it is clear that there must be some non evangelical churches in urban areas which are really losing the numbers.
Within a mile of where I sit there are seven closed churches. The Catholics have substantially reduced the number of their masses of a weekend, though still have many. However the big local independent Charismatic Evangelical has outgrown its building and meets in a local multiplex, whilst a more conservative Evangelical is uncomfortably filling the building it meets in on a Sunday morning.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Imersge Canfield
Shipmate
# 17431
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Squirrel:
Just to clarify, I'm not interested in discussing things like the (alleged) increasing secularization of society, Dawkins, etc, here. I'm asking what so many churches seem to be doing that keeps people away from them.
Recently I read an article in The Lutheran (available only to subscribers, so I can't post a link) in which a Texas pastor said that the biggest reason for non-church attendance is the people in the churches. He goes on to list many un-Christian behaviors that, many unchurched folks tell him, keep people away. "Church" people, it seemed, were not behaving in a very Christian manner, and visitors picked that up.
This struck a chord with what I've heard. For example, yesterday I was at a meeting of a neighborhood organization when the subject came up concerning our using various local churches to host events. The consensus was that it was the churches' board members (not clergy) who were frequently so difficult to work with. Some are downright nasty.
At this point one woman, who directs a large social service agency in the area, remarked about how this was one reason why "organized religion" was going down the toilet. Everyone (except yours-truly) agreed.
So, what do you think? What, if anything, are the churches doing that so turns people off?
How long have you got ?
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'You must not attribute my yielding, to sinister appetites'
"Preach the gospel and only use jewellry if necessary." (The Midge)
Posts: 419 | From: Sun Ship over Grand Fenwick Duchy | Registered: Nov 2012
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Clemency
Shipmate
# 16173
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Posted
As an oft-times lurker and very occasional poster I feel led to make a shocking admission..
after many years of being in a variety of generally evangelical/charismatic, housechurchy congregations we have ended up in a traditional Anglican village church, most things straight-from-the-book, very trad, 'shine Jesus shine' only once in a blue moon... middle-class people, mostly retireds, sort of place I never thought I would end up....
and the shocking admission is
(I can't help this...)
I really like it.
The people are great
We feel thoroughly accepted and cared for
maybe it's senile dementia - maybe the great lie of the COMFORT ZONE has swallowed me whole. something must be dreadfully wrong - but there. I've said it! (phew, relieved)
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Who knows where the Time goes?
Posts: 90 | From: Northumberland, UK | Registered: Jan 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Clemency:
As an oft-times lurker and very occasional poster I feel led to make a shocking admission..
after many years of being in a variety of generally evangelical/charismatic, housechurchy congregations we have ended up in a traditional Anglican village church, most things straight-from-the-book, very trad, 'shine Jesus shine' only once in a blue moon... middle-class people, mostly retireds, sort of place I never thought I would end up....
and the shocking admission is
(I can't help this...)
I really like it.
The people are great
We feel thoroughly accepted and cared for
maybe it's senile dementia - maybe the great lie of the COMFORT ZONE has swallowed me whole. something must be dreadfully wrong - but there. I've said it! (phew, relieved)
That's a lovely post, and made me smile. Yes, I could get into that some of the time; then at other times, I would be in a rage about it as well. Well, love and hate make life very spicey.
Well done.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Almost everyone I know says church is boring. The exceptions are primarily a few Shipmates, clergy, and some friends whose social life is centered on church social activities.
My clergy friends say they enjoy church. I point out they get to DO stuff, we have to just sit.
Watch this 11 minute video about what motivates people -- Autonomy, challenge and mastery, and transcendent purpose.
Autonomy? Churches are opposed to autonomy for any but a few leaders such as clergy and somewhat the music director, possibly a Sunday school teacher, and depending on the church not even them. A general on top gives orders, the masses of troops on the bottom are suppose to just do what they are told, avoid any creativity or autonomy, be a robot.
Challenge and mastery? Just keep doing what you did last week, last year, last decade in exactly the same way. Any job or entertainment that told you to do that you'd get awfully bored with. (Hamlet is a great play but would you want to sit and watch it every week for 50 years? The same arguments can be made about a weekly requirement to watch Hamlet that are made about a weekly requirement to go to church -- good discipline, important messages, it's not about you its about the play, etc.)
Transcendent purpose? Churches claim to offer it, but do they? I'm not convinced what goes on in church has any direct relationship to worshiping God, and 90%-98% of a church's efforts are about itself, paying for the clergy and building and putting on it's programs for its own people.
Even if you do see transcendent purpose in showing up at church every Sunday, without autonomy, and challenge/mastery, it's not enough to really engage people.
The wonder is not that believers drop out but that so many attend!
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
I also wonder if there's an amount of projection going on as well - us projecting onto others the things we don't like about church?
I think there's a lot of that - people effectively saying "if we did things exactly the way I want them done there'd be far more people here".
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Belle Ringer
Good post, and your three categories make sense to me.
I do get a sense of transcendence from the eucharist; however, I do wonder if church is doomed really.
Not because of anything bad it is doing; but as a carrier of transcendent symbolism, it is somehow clapped out. Will it be replaced? Dunno.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Several posts have pointed to one or more people whose personalities or behavior chase others away. Every charity and hobby group gets one of these sometimes, and knows it has to soften or get rid of the aggressively unpleasant person because the alternative is others will leave.
I recently repaired a writers group I co-run that many members said they would not come back to after one person got aggressively argumentative at one meeting, destroying the normal pleasant friendliness. I've gotten the others to come back by personal phone calls and email discussions about what happened and how we will stop any similar unpleasantness from anyone in the future.
Churches don't take steps to repair the damage, they know who the problem people are but just let it happen again and again. "That's what Mabel is like, we can't do anything about it."
Church leaders need to take steps to make church a "safe place" from verbal abuse as well as physical. Either focus on socializing Mabel how to behave in community or tell Mabel to leave if she won't adjust. Failing to soften or remove Mabel means others will leave her damaging company by leaving your church (and possibly all churches).
Not wanting to "hurt Mabel's feelings" is setting her free to keep hurting others who try out your church. Putting up with Mabel "because we have to, she does an essential job for the church, we need her" is submitting to blackmail. No one is essential. At minimum we all die some day!
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, it's a bit like a mod with trolls. Keep the buggers disciplined, otherwise, you will lose the non-trolls.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Almost everyone I know says church is boring. The exceptions are primarily a few Shipmates, clergy, and some friends whose social life is centered on church social activities.
My clergy friends say they enjoy church. I point out they get to DO stuff, we have to just sit.
This is one of Frank Viola's subtexts; what he proposes as 'church' is a small scale, informal gathering where everyone is encouraged to contribute. As a result it should be very different every week. Of course the problem with this is that in practice certain habits kick in, people ride their hobby horses etc.
It's perhaps worth sharing my recipe at the moment. In order of importance: my main 'church' is the evening I spend with a close friend once a week sharing everything that's happening in our lives. I also go to the daily service 3 times a week, which is loosely based on Common Worship, but specifically uses the lectionary as a source of readings, which the small group of us who make it there then discuss (attendence 3-12). Finally there is a Sunday service which is my lowest priority, where I can enjoy a good sing, and where the sermon is usually worth hearing - which I treat as 'temple', on the Acts 4 model.
Unfortunately most institutionalised churches have the opposite direction of priorities, emphasising Sundays and often losing the other elements of fellowship entirely...
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Hard pews. Organ music. Silly chanting of prayers on one note. Draughty, echoing churches with hard-to-hear sound systems, old fashioned choir music, men in silly pointed hats and cloaks made of old fashioned curtain material, reading from books that skip from one page to another...
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
...Brass bands. Men and women dressed up in militaristic uniforms. Teetotalism....
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Brass bands are fun. I can;t be doing with those other things though!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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