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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The new Archbishop
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
...This is a pretty dire situation for liberal theology, because it means that it will never be able to speak of itself clearly and openly. It seeps out in attitudes and silences, half-understood and vaguely suspected. This surely leaves the floor wide open for a more assertive evangelical takeover in church culture...
...and so enters Justin Welby, as the AB of C with his charismatic-style HTB theology! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) As FiF-style Anglo-Catholicism has (just about) had its day in the C of E, I'm coming to the conclusion that maybe this is the only christian tradition left which is in any sense authentic for the english church.
Well, we've already learnt from this thread that Justin Welby leans in a fairly Catholic direction, so it's probably not right to characterise him entirely as 'charismatic'. One blog describes him as a 'post-churchmanship Anglican'. And apparently, HTB currently ministers to an Anglo-Catholic congregation, among others. So things aren't as clear-cut as they might seem.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100208411/the-new-archbishop-of-canterbury-enthroned-today-must-wish-the-gay -issue-would-go-away-but-it-wont/
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Cafeteria Christianity has connotations of picking and choosing to suit oneself. It might, with a particularly uncharitable point of view, account for women who want to be priests or bishops and gay people who want to have sex. It doesn't account for straight men who think that women can be and are called to the priesthood and the episcopate or that there are gay relationships that are of the same value to God as straight ones. Those arise from a different understanding of what God intends and expects, and a different understanding of the nature of God's laws. If you believe that God's laws are fundamentally arbitrary and inexplicable, with no purpose other than to separate the sheep from the goats, then believing that women can't be priests and gay people have to be celibate makes sense. If you don't find that view to be compatible with scripture, tradition and reason then it does not.
Some of us arrive at a position of liberalism BECAUSE of what we read in the Gospels, not in spite of it. It's just that we resolve the dichotomy between the spirit of Jesus' teaching and the strict letter of Paul in favour of Jesus, as Jesus made it pretty clear that the spirit was far more important than the letter.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Please, Please, Please "Catholic" and "Charismatic" are not mutually exclusive terms. For starters you have to make sense of this website if they were and this one.
Actually there is quite a strong symbiosis with a number of Evangelical Charismatics developing strong Catholic tendencies as they mature as Christians quite often without denigrating their charismatic roots.
Jengie
[ 01. April 2013, 17:00: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Please, Please, Please "Catholic" and "Charismatic" are not mutually exclusive terms. For starters you have to make sense of this website if they were and this one.
Actually there is quite a strong symbiosis with a number of Evangelical Charismatics developing strong Catholic tendencies as they mature as Christians quite often without denigrating their charismatic roots.
Jengie
The magazine in your link refers to RC charismatics, which is surely a different thing. It's their presence in the RCC that validates their Catholicism, even if their prefered worship style is very different from the typical RC kind. Anglo-Catholicism is another kettle of fish, because it's worship style not denomination that makes them so.
My impression from this website is that Anglican and free church charismatics are beginning to adopt certain Catholic practices, but not that Anglo-Catholics are somehow incorporating charismatic flavours into their worship. Justin Welby has become more Catholic having started off with a preference for more charismatic forms of worship, not vice versa.
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Angloid
A real prophet (and one would hope that an ABC would not be a false one) would surely speak about God and social justice in the same breath.
I wouldn't expect most bishops or archbishops to be prophets at all. I think their views on social policies are likely to be their own, arrived at in the same way the rest of us form our opinions. Also like the rest of us, they vary a good deal in their opinions, and it does not seem coherent to me to say that those who agree with me should speak out while those who disagree with me should shut up.
In my opinion there are enough voices raised on all sides of most issues of public policy already without bishops adding such wisdom as they possess. On the other hand there are not many voices raised to speak about what happened on the first Easter day.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It doesn't account for straight men who think that women can be and are called to the priesthood and the episcopate or that there are gay relationships that are of the same value to God as straight ones.
I don't think that's necessarily true. Whilst as you say there are plenty of people who hold these positions because of scripture and Christ, there are other people who hold these opinions because they are supporters of secular equality, and hold that above whatever God might want. It can be self-serving to want to think of oneself as a modern, enlightened fellow who supports equality just as it can be self-serving for a woman to want to be a priest or a man to want to marry another man.
From the outside, it's hard to tell these apart, but on the inside they are fundamentally different. The type 1 - the person who is liberal because of Christ, is fundamentally, deeply Christian, although other Christians would claim that he was in error on some points.
Type 2 isn't doing so well. Type 2 is carefully not examining God's will on, for example, Dead Horse issues, because he doesn't want an answer he might not like.
There are, of course, type 1 and type 2 people with respect to all kinds of aspects of faith, not just liberalism, and you always want to try to get out of type 2.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I don't think that's necessarily true. Whilst as you say there are plenty of people who hold these positions because of scripture and Christ, there are other people who hold these opinions because they are supporters of secular equality, and hold that above whatever God might want. It can be self-serving to want to think of oneself as a modern, enlightened fellow who supports equality just as it can be self-serving for a woman to want to be a priest or a man to want to marry another man.
That's a fair point. I always get worried when I see Christians saying "in this day and age" or "move with the times". What the world does is irrelevant. This is where I agree with the conservatives - if something is true in this sort of situation then it was always true and will, in general, continue to be true. I just differ on whether the prior worldly opinion in western culture on the right attitude to women and gays is closer to what God wants than the present one (for the record I doubt either worldly opinion is very close to the mark).
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
On the other hand there are not many voices raised to speak about what happened on the first Easter day.
And if what happened on the first Easter day doesn't have any bearing on how we treat the poor or establish a more equal society, then I don't want to be a Christian.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
My impression from this website is that Anglican and free church charismatics are beginning to adopt certain Catholic practices, but not that Anglo-Catholics are somehow incorporating charismatic flavours into their worship.
There are Anglo-catholic charismatics , you know.
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
My impression from this website is that Anglican and free church charismatics are beginning to adopt certain Catholic practices, but not that Anglo-Catholics are somehow incorporating charismatic flavours into their worship.
There are Anglo-catholic charismatics , you know.
Not unusual at all in the circles I wander about in these days. There is a strong sense of spiritual renewal in the history of the catholic movement after all.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
My impression from this website is that Anglican and free church charismatics are beginning to adopt certain Catholic practices, but not that Anglo-Catholics are somehow incorporating charismatic flavours into their worship.
There are Anglo-catholic charismatics , you know.
Not unusual at all in the circles I wander about in these days. There is a strong sense of spiritual renewal in the history of the catholic movement after all.
The terminology is just so slippery these days! Are 'spiritual renewal' and charismatic spirituality considered to be one and the same thing?
Perhaps it's not just Justin Welby who's a post-churchmanship Anglican; is the concept of Anglican churchmanship practically out of date? It would be useful to know, for future reference!
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The terminology is just so slippery these days! Are 'spiritual renewal' and charismatic spirituality considered to be one and the same thing?
Perhaps it's not just Justin Welby who's a post-churchmanship Anglican; is the concept of Anglican churchmanship practically out of date? It would be useful to know, for future reference!
Renewal and Charismatic are related terms. How would you define them? Perhaps the former is broader with a deeper history, whereas Charismatic refers to a particular post-pentecostal movement. I would tend to see the Charismata as essentially present in the Church - irrespective of a particular identification with the Charismatic movement.
Anglican Churchmanship is shifting as always. Within the Catholic movement there are academic and experiential streams, as there are in Evangelicalism. Sometimes those streams have more in common with others outside their tradition than within.
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
In reply to Mark Betts:
Hard to justify the swing other than by experience. There seem to be more Evangelical vocations than ever, and the so called liberal Catholics I meet seem to be creedal and have a significant belief in the supernatural action of God in the sacraments.
Mission primarily seems to be about bringing people into a fullness of faith in Christ. Discipleship seems to be a hot topic in very different circles.
AffCath expressed a desire to be more explicitly catholic in their annual review a couple of years back. That is when I rejoined.
The CofE does not offer the certainty of the Roman catechism - but it never did.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
Renewal and Charismatic are related terms. How would you define them? Perhaps the former is broader with a deeper history, whereas Charismatic refers to a particular post-pentecostal movement. I would tend to see the Charismata as essentially present in the Church - irrespective of a particular identification with the Charismatic movement.
So, when you talk about something being 'Anglo-Catholic' and also 'Charismatic' you're not really talking about a rapprochement between Anglo-Catholicism and the kind of spirituality that grew out of Pentecostalism. You're basically referring to a greater spiritual commitment and enthusiasm among Anglo-Catholics.
That's fair enough, but a little confusing!
quote:
Anglican Churchmanship is shifting as always. Within the Catholic movement there are academic and experiential streams, as there are in Evangelicalism. Sometimes those streams have more in common with others outside their tradition than within.
That's fair enough, but a little confusing!
It must be very difficult for outsiders to make their way through all of this shape-shifting variety if they just want to find a suitable church to attend!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
So, when you talk about something being 'Anglo-Catholic' and also 'Charismatic' you're not really talking about a rapprochement between Anglo-Catholicism and the kind of spirituality that grew out of Pentecostalism. You're basically referring to a greater spiritual commitment and enthusiasm among Anglo-Catholics.
That's fair enough, but a little confusing!
No. There links between Charismatic Anglo-Catholicism and Charismatic Roman Catholicism, and the latter was one the largest parts of the Charismatic movement of late 60's and 70's. The Charismatic movement in Anglicanism, especially in the US was rooted in liturgical churches.
However the Charismatic movement has changed since that period. Even been embraced by Evangelicals! In the US at least this is known as '3rd wave' - although the US and UK have different histories.
If anything the term Renewal has been maintained in the CofE by those who have roots in the Charismatic movement of the 60s & 70s rather than the later influence of Vineyard and Wimberism.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
That's fair enough, but a little confusing!
It must be very difficult for outsiders to make their way through all of this shape-shifting variety if they just want to find a suitable church to attend!
Anglicans attend their Parish Church?
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
In reply to Mark Betts:
Hard to justify the swing other than by experience. There seem to be more Evangelical vocations than ever, and the so called liberal Catholics I meet seem to be creedal and have a significant belief in the supernatural action of God in the sacraments.
Mission primarily seems to be about bringing people into a fullness of faith in Christ. Discipleship seems to be a hot topic in very different circles.
AffCath expressed a desire to be more explicitly catholic in their annual review a couple of years back. That is when I rejoined.
The CofE does not offer the certainty of the Roman catechism - but it never did.
Thanks for that Edward. My fear is that, while these Affirming Catholics claim they are becoming more creedal (more orthodox?) - which is a good thing - is it in fact a sort of cafeteria anglo-catholicism, where they pick and choose the parts of catholicism they like and discard the bits they don't like. Note that these bits they don't like may not necessarily be the same as for theological liberals.
The situation still seems to be that some more orthodox, traditional anglo-catholics feel they are being pushed out, whilst others are leaving to join the Ordinariate.
I wonder if the C of E feels that these old-school anglo-catholics don't matter to the future of their church.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The situation still seems to be that some more orthodox, traditional anglo-catholics feel they are being pushed out, whilst others are leaving to join the Ordinariate.
Not being able to force others to conform to your beliefs is not being pushed out.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The situation still seems to be that some more orthodox, traditional anglo-catholics feel they are being pushed out, whilst others are leaving to join the Ordinariate.
Not being able to force others to conform to your beliefs is not being pushed out.
I feel you are misrepresenting the whole problem Arethosemyfeet. The idea was never to force everyone else to conform to their beliefs - all they were asking for was a respected place within the Established Church, but that seems to be being denied them. Emotive dishonesty doesn't help things.
However, other un-catholic agendas are quite definitely being forced through, and anyone who disagrees is basically being told to put up or shut up. Will things change under Justin Welby? Unfortunately, I fear not.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It doesn't account for straight men who think that women can be and are called to the priesthood and the episcopate or that there are gay relationships that are of the same value to God as straight ones.
I don't think that's necessarily true. Whilst as you say there are plenty of people who hold these positions because of scripture and Christ, there are other people who hold these opinions because they are supporters of secular equality, and hold that above whatever God might want. It can be self-serving to want to think of oneself as a modern, enlightened fellow who supports equality just as it can be self-serving for a woman to want to be a priest or a man to want to marry another man.
From the outside, it's hard to tell these apart, but on the inside they are fundamentally different. The type 1 - the person who is liberal because of Christ, is fundamentally, deeply Christian, although other Christians would claim that he was in error on some points.
Type 2 isn't doing so well. Type 2 is carefully not examining God's will on, for example, Dead Horse issues, because he doesn't want an answer he might not like.
There are, of course, type 1 and type 2 people with respect to all kinds of aspects of faith, not just liberalism, and you always want to try to get out of type 2.
Or there's people like me, who long ago gave up trying to force myself to believe things I don't believe, and are a sort of liberal by default because there are some things apparently required to not be one that I just don't and can't make myself believe any more than by sheer force of will I can persuade myself that grass is blue.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
Anglicans attend their Parish Church?
If Anglicans just attend their parish church, regardless of the churchmanship, then what's the point of all of this diversity? Surely diversity is about increasing choice?
I still don't quite understand what you're saying about Charismatic Anglo-Catholicism, but I see that it doesn't really matter anyway, because Anglican churchgoers are simply expected to attend their nearest church, disregarding what 'flavour' it happens to be.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
It would be a simple choice for me - if I had to attend my nearest church or nothing, I'd choose nothing. Thank God for variety and diversity.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
There are two kinds of "theologically-liberal", I think. One kind is rooted in scripture and in Jesus Christ, and comes to a liberal theological position after some serious study of what we know about Jesus.
The second kind wants to believe in something bigger than them, but wants comfortable truthiness rather than truth - it only wants to be "Christian" if it isn't inconvenient.
Is not the role of teaching to move people from the second category to the first?
Your second category isn't liberalism at all IMO - it is what is known as "cafeteria christianity" - where you pick and choose what you like and what you don't like.
I'm a cafeteria Christian and proud of it. When I look on the shelves, I see a lot of stuff that seems to be at best long past its sell-by date, and at worst was never fit for human consumption. I make no apologies for rejecting those items.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
LC: quote:
There are two kinds of "theologically-liberal", I think. One kind is rooted in scripture and in Jesus Christ, and comes to a liberal theological position after some serious study of what we know about Jesus.
I like that definition, and think it describes my present position. When I did a Theology degree, as part of my ordination training, I was forced to look at all sorts of issues that I thought were cut and dried, and discovered they were more complex than I had thought.
For example (and I've chosen this as I think you'll approve of it Betts), I had grown up thinking that Penal Substitution was the only way of understanding the Atonement. It was a shock to find it could be seen in different ways, ways just as deeply rooted in Christ, Scripture and Tradition as PS. (I really hope I haven't kickstarted yet another argument about PS by saying this!)
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
It would be a simple choice for me - if I had to attend my nearest church or nothing, I'd choose nothing. Thank God for variety and diversity.
Same.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
...For example (and I've chosen this as I think you'll approve of it Betts)...
Calling me "Mark" will do just fine thanks. Carry on...
quote:
...I had grown up thinking that Penal Substitution was the only way of understanding the Atonement. It was a shock to find it could be seen in different ways, ways just as deeply rooted in Christ, Scripture and Tradition as PS. (I really hope I haven't kickstarted yet another argument about PS by saying this!)
Yes, and it may also surprise people to know that it (most probably) wasn't the teaching of the Apostles at all, it was unheard of for the first 1000 years of christianity and only developed in the west after St Anselm.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm a cafeteria Christian and proud of it. When I look on the shelves, I see a lot of stuff that seems to be at best long past its sell-by date, and at worst was never fit for human consumption. I make no apologies for rejecting those items.
You know, Karl, you may change your mind on some of these things later in life - many people do, not least of all one C. S. Lewis.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Well, I might, but to be honest the general trend is in the opposite direction. I was an evangelical once, you know. Spent a whole week as a YEC when I was young and foolish.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
[QUOTE]...I had grown up thinking that Penal Substitution was the only way of understanding the Atonement. It was a shock to find it could be seen in different ways, ways just as deeply rooted in Christ, Scripture and Tradition as PS. (I really hope I haven't kickstarted yet another argument about PS by saying this!)
Yes, and it may also surprise people to know that it (most probably) wasn't the teaching of the Apostles at all, it was unheard of for the first 1000 years of christianity and only developed in the west after St Anselm.
I am sorry that is untrue
quote:
Where he in flesh, our flesh was made
Our sentence bore, our ransom paid
Venantius Fortunatus 530-609 AD
Very succinct statement of PSA, it goes through the whole hymn.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Not wishing to prolong a tangent - but that hymn is more Christus Victor than anything else.
As for payment, that seems to prefigure Anselm, whose theory wasn't PSA but an analogy with feudal landlords wanting rent.
Here we go!
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
[QUOTE]
Where he in flesh, our flesh was made
Our sentence bore, our ransom paid
Venantius Fortunatus 530-609 AD
Very succinct statement of PSA, it goes through the whole hymn.
Jengie
I don't know the hymn, but those lines are a statement of ransom theory, not PSA.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
Anglicans attend their Parish Church?
If Anglicans just attend their parish church, regardless of the churchmanship, then what's the point of all of this diversity? Surely diversity is about increasing choice?
I still don't quite understand what you're saying about Charismatic Anglo-Catholicism, but I see that it doesn't really matter anyway, because Anglican churchgoers are simply expected to attend their nearest church, disregarding what 'flavour' it happens to be.
Many Anglicans do attend their parish church regardless of its tradition. This leads to diversity. Members of the more Charismatic congregation I serve also come to the more Catholic services I lead for example. Outside of larger towns and cities the diversity exists within the local church. I am somewhat short of ecumenical partners so I have Baptists, CofS, Methodists, etc. etc.
Charismatic Catholicism is different partially because the Catholic tradition has never denied the gifts of the Spirit. So the renewal is in broader engagement with the gifts. What do you mean by Charismatic?
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
Many Anglicans do attend their parish church regardless of its tradition. This leads to diversity.
I have a strong belief in church-as-community, in the community. I find it a good thing (TM) to worship at my local church, and have done so in all the places I have lived in recent years.
Some have been more comfortable than others, but none of them have been so bad that I've been driven elsewhere.
It could happen - I've visited one or two C of E places that I would be very unhappy trying to call home, but it hasn't yet.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I think it depends on how aggressively you are discriminated against for being different from the dominant ethos of the church. If your differences can be tolerated, I suggest it might be mutually beneficial for both parties if you stay. But if who you are is unacceptable in that context then, for your own health and for the good of that church it is better to go.
What I find most admirable in the recent ABC appointment is that different traditions do appear to be held in creative tension and mutual respect. Bravo.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mark Betts
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# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
What I find most admirable in the recent ABC appointment is that different traditions do appear to be held in creative tension and mutual respect. Bravo.
Not all traditions...
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I think it depends on how aggressively you are discriminated against for being different from the dominant ethos of the church. If your differences can be tolerated, I suggest it might be mutually beneficial for both parties if you stay. But if who you are is unacceptable in that context then, for your own health and for the good of that church it is better to go.
Yes, I'd agree with that.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
Many Anglicans do attend their parish church regardless of its tradition. This leads to diversity.
So it's a question of personal preference, rather than of church culture? The concern I'd have in that case is that you'd get a lowest common denominator form of church. But I suppose people are expected to go to parachurch conferences, retreats and festivals if they want to give free expression to their worship and spiritual preferences.
quote:
Charismatic Catholicism is different partially because the Catholic tradition has never denied the gifts of the Spirit. So the renewal is in broader engagement with the gifts. What do you mean by Charismatic?
I'm not an Anglican or a Catholic, so to me 'charismatic' refers to the form of church expression and spirituality that grew out of the rise of Pentecostalism. I doubt that Pentecostalism and Catholicism have always had exactly the same understanding of what 'the gifts of the Spirit' are. However, you may well have more experience of comparing the two than I have. I'm more familiar with the Pentecostal side.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Mark Betts
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# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
...The concern I'd have in that case is that you'd get a lowest common denominator form of church...
...in other words, I'm afraid, it can lead to cafeteria christianity, or "christianity-lite".
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
So it's a question of personal preference, rather than of church culture? The concern I'd have in that case is that you'd get a lowest common denominator form of church. But I suppose people are expected to go to parachurch conferences, retreats and festivals if they want to give free expression to their worship and spiritual preferences.
.....
I'm not an Anglican or a Catholic, so to me 'charismatic' refers to the form of church expression and spirituality that grew out of the rise of Pentecostalism. I doubt that Pentecostalism and Catholicism have always had exactly the same understanding of what 'the gifts of the Spirit' are. However, you may well have more experience of comparing the two than I have. I'm more familiar with the Pentecostal side.
Anglicanism has its own identity, of which diversity is a part. Our common identity is expressed through shared liturgy and relationship with the apostolic ministry of our bishops. Many Anglicans may have personal preferences, but healthy Anglican spirituality is willing to move outside of comfort zones. My experience of being an in the CofE has been enriching rather than LCD!
As I can't get a definition of how you see Charismatic I am not sure how to explain how it works in a catholic context. Spiritual practice between pentecostals, charismatics, and third wave folks vary. A catholic charismatic approach would affirm the ongoing presence of the gifts, prayer ministry, use of contemporary worship, emotive and ecstatic response to God, but also the assured supernatural action of God in the sacraments.
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
I've regularly attended churches with everything from praise bands to sung choral matins, from hymn sandwich to solemn Eucharist, and a fair amount of slightly sloppy mishmash. In all of them there were Christians at varying stages of their journey of faith, and in none of them was there any sense that we were seeking anything less than full Christianity. Doing Christianity differently doesn't automatically mean doing it less, and a commitment that doesn't involve certainty about the right way to do things isn't "cafeteria Christianity", it's more like a really good church buffet - you try and squeeze a bit of everything on your plate because there are so many good cooks around. If you've discovered you really really like sausage rolls and salad then that's fine, but don't pretend that someone who likes a cheese and tomato sandwich and a pork pie is necessarily doing it wrong.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
So it's a question of personal preference, rather than of church culture? The concern I'd have in that case is that you'd get a lowest common denominator form of church. But I suppose people are expected to go to parachurch conferences, retreats and festivals if they want to give free expression to their worship and spiritual preferences.
.....
I'm not an Anglican or a Catholic, so to me 'charismatic' refers to the form of church expression and spirituality that grew out of the rise of Pentecostalism. I doubt that Pentecostalism and Catholicism have always had exactly the same understanding of what 'the gifts of the Spirit' are. However, you may well have more experience of comparing the two than I have. I'm more familiar with the Pentecostal side.
Anglicanism has its own identity, of which diversity is a part. Our common identity is expressed through shared liturgy and relationship with the apostolic ministry of our bishops. Many Anglicans may have personal preferences, but healthy Anglican spirituality is willing to move outside of comfort zones. My experience of being an in the CofE has been enriching rather than LCD!
As I can't get a definition of how you see Charismatic I am not sure how to explain how it works in a catholic context. Spiritual practice between pentecostals, charismatics, and third wave folks vary. A catholic charismatic approach would affirm the ongoing presence of the gifts, prayer ministry, use of contemporary worship, emotive and ecstatic response to God, but also the assured supernatural action of God in the sacraments.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
As I can't get a definition of how you see Charismatic I am not sure how to explain how it works in a catholic context.
But as I've said, my understanding derives from Pentecostalism. The definition I've come across it that Pentecostal spirituality in a mainstream or new church context is referred to as charismatic. Pentecostalism, so the story goes, brought back to the universal church an emphasis on the gifts of the Spirit. If we follow this explanation it would be reasonable to accept that since the early 20th c. the churches have taken taken that Pentecostal influence in various directions. (E.g. not all 'charismatic' churches would valorise speaking in tongues.)
However, what I've learnt from our discussion is that such a definition was always inadequate if Catholics and Anglicans consider Pentecostalism to be a negligible influence upon their own ancient and self-sufficient perspective on the gifts of the Spirit. This was something I hadn't realised before, hence my confusion. It's clearer now.
[ 06. April 2013, 02:05: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
But as I've said, my understanding derives from Pentecostalism. The definition I've come across it that Pentecostal spirituality in a mainstream or new church context is referred to as charismatic. Pentecostalism, so the story goes, brought back to the universal church an emphasis on the gifts of the Spirit. If we follow this explanation it would be reasonable to accept that since the early 20th c. the churches have taken taken that Pentecostal influence in various directions. (E.g. not all 'charismatic' churches would valorise speaking in tongues.)
However, what I've learnt from our discussion is that such a definition was always inadequate if Catholics and Anglicans consider Pentecostalism to be a negligible influence upon their own ancient and self-sufficient perspective on the gifts of the Spirit. This was something I hadn't realised before, hence my confusion. It's clearer now.
I wouldn't say negligible, just one part of a larger picture. Pentecostalism's roots are traceable back to more catholic Anglicanism in any case - through Wesley.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
[QUOTE]
Where he in flesh, our flesh was made
Our sentence bore, our ransom paid
Venantius Fortunatus 530-609 AD
Very succinct statement of PSA, it goes through the whole hymn.
Jengie
I don't know the hymn, but those lines are a statement of ransom theory, not PSA.
It's both:
'our ransom paid' is, er, ransom.
'Our sentence bore' is PSA - he bore our sentence. In other words, he took the judgment, penalty, sentence - took it from us and bore it himself. there is no other way of explaining it. Penal Substitutionary Atonement. Ta da!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Justin Welby v David Cameron: the Anglican Church is now the Labour Party at prayer
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
That article is rubbish.
I've read it through, and I wouldn't say it was rubbish, although I know plenty on here that would have a very different view of the things discussed.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
'Our sentence bore' is PSA - he bore our sentence. In other words, he took the judgment, penalty, sentence - took it from us and bore it himself. there is no other way of explaining it.
Nonsense. All that says is that our sentence is death, and that Jesus suffered it. It doesn't say anything about it being in our place, or happening in order to satisfy the pseudo-legal requirements of the divine law court.
If we're going to have another PSA thread can I just point out that Vicky Pryce must be feeling quite hard done by?
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
<snip> quote:
Where he in flesh, our flesh was made
Our sentence bore, our ransom paid
Venantius Fortunatus 530-609 AD
Very succinct statement of PSA, it goes through the whole hymn.
Jengie
Unfortunately the statement owes much more, I think, to J M Neale than to Fortunatus whose original Latin quote:
quo carne carnis conditor
suspensus est patibulo
would be more accurately, but less poetically translated as quote:
Where he in flesh, who our flesh made
was hung upon the gallows
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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