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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The new Archbishop
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
There are two kinds of "theologically-liberal", I think. One kind is rooted in scripture and in Jesus Christ, and comes to a liberal theological position after some serious study of what we know about Jesus.
The second kind wants to believe in something bigger than them, but wants comfortable truthiness rather than truth - it only wants to be "Christian" if it isn't inconvenient.
Is not the role of teaching to move people from the second category to the first?
Your second category isn't liberalism at all IMO - it is what is known as "cafeteria christianity" - where you pick and choose what you like and what you don't like.
I'm a cafeteria Christian and proud of it. When I look on the shelves, I see a lot of stuff that seems to be at best long past its sell-by date, and at worst was never fit for human consumption. I make no apologies for rejecting those items.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
LC: quote:
There are two kinds of "theologically-liberal", I think. One kind is rooted in scripture and in Jesus Christ, and comes to a liberal theological position after some serious study of what we know about Jesus.
I like that definition, and think it describes my present position. When I did a Theology degree, as part of my ordination training, I was forced to look at all sorts of issues that I thought were cut and dried, and discovered they were more complex than I had thought.
For example (and I've chosen this as I think you'll approve of it Betts), I had grown up thinking that Penal Substitution was the only way of understanding the Atonement. It was a shock to find it could be seen in different ways, ways just as deeply rooted in Christ, Scripture and Tradition as PS. (I really hope I haven't kickstarted yet another argument about PS by saying this!)
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
It would be a simple choice for me - if I had to attend my nearest church or nothing, I'd choose nothing. Thank God for variety and diversity.
Same.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
...For example (and I've chosen this as I think you'll approve of it Betts)...
Calling me "Mark" will do just fine thanks. Carry on...
quote:
...I had grown up thinking that Penal Substitution was the only way of understanding the Atonement. It was a shock to find it could be seen in different ways, ways just as deeply rooted in Christ, Scripture and Tradition as PS. (I really hope I haven't kickstarted yet another argument about PS by saying this!)
Yes, and it may also surprise people to know that it (most probably) wasn't the teaching of the Apostles at all, it was unheard of for the first 1000 years of christianity and only developed in the west after St Anselm.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm a cafeteria Christian and proud of it. When I look on the shelves, I see a lot of stuff that seems to be at best long past its sell-by date, and at worst was never fit for human consumption. I make no apologies for rejecting those items.
You know, Karl, you may change your mind on some of these things later in life - many people do, not least of all one C. S. Lewis.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Well, I might, but to be honest the general trend is in the opposite direction. I was an evangelical once, you know. Spent a whole week as a YEC when I was young and foolish.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
[QUOTE]...I had grown up thinking that Penal Substitution was the only way of understanding the Atonement. It was a shock to find it could be seen in different ways, ways just as deeply rooted in Christ, Scripture and Tradition as PS. (I really hope I haven't kickstarted yet another argument about PS by saying this!)
Yes, and it may also surprise people to know that it (most probably) wasn't the teaching of the Apostles at all, it was unheard of for the first 1000 years of christianity and only developed in the west after St Anselm.
I am sorry that is untrue
quote:
Where he in flesh, our flesh was made
Our sentence bore, our ransom paid
Venantius Fortunatus 530-609 AD
Very succinct statement of PSA, it goes through the whole hymn.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Not wishing to prolong a tangent - but that hymn is more Christus Victor than anything else.
As for payment, that seems to prefigure Anselm, whose theory wasn't PSA but an analogy with feudal landlords wanting rent.
Here we go! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
[QUOTE]
Where he in flesh, our flesh was made
Our sentence bore, our ransom paid
Venantius Fortunatus 530-609 AD
Very succinct statement of PSA, it goes through the whole hymn.
Jengie
I don't know the hymn, but those lines are a statement of ransom theory, not PSA.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
Anglicans attend their Parish Church?
If Anglicans just attend their parish church, regardless of the churchmanship, then what's the point of all of this diversity? Surely diversity is about increasing choice?
I still don't quite understand what you're saying about Charismatic Anglo-Catholicism, but I see that it doesn't really matter anyway, because Anglican churchgoers are simply expected to attend their nearest church, disregarding what 'flavour' it happens to be.
Many Anglicans do attend their parish church regardless of its tradition. This leads to diversity. Members of the more Charismatic congregation I serve also come to the more Catholic services I lead for example. Outside of larger towns and cities the diversity exists within the local church. I am somewhat short of ecumenical partners so I have Baptists, CofS, Methodists, etc. etc.
Charismatic Catholicism is different partially because the Catholic tradition has never denied the gifts of the Spirit. So the renewal is in broader engagement with the gifts. What do you mean by Charismatic?
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
Many Anglicans do attend their parish church regardless of its tradition. This leads to diversity.
I have a strong belief in church-as-community, in the community. I find it a good thing (TM) to worship at my local church, and have done so in all the places I have lived in recent years.
Some have been more comfortable than others, but none of them have been so bad that I've been driven elsewhere.
It could happen - I've visited one or two C of E places that I would be very unhappy trying to call home, but it hasn't yet.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I think it depends on how aggressively you are discriminated against for being different from the dominant ethos of the church. If your differences can be tolerated, I suggest it might be mutually beneficial for both parties if you stay. But if who you are is unacceptable in that context then, for your own health and for the good of that church it is better to go.
What I find most admirable in the recent ABC appointment is that different traditions do appear to be held in creative tension and mutual respect. Bravo.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
What I find most admirable in the recent ABC appointment is that different traditions do appear to be held in creative tension and mutual respect. Bravo.
Not all traditions...
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I think it depends on how aggressively you are discriminated against for being different from the dominant ethos of the church. If your differences can be tolerated, I suggest it might be mutually beneficial for both parties if you stay. But if who you are is unacceptable in that context then, for your own health and for the good of that church it is better to go.
Yes, I'd agree with that.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
Many Anglicans do attend their parish church regardless of its tradition. This leads to diversity.
So it's a question of personal preference, rather than of church culture? The concern I'd have in that case is that you'd get a lowest common denominator form of church. But I suppose people are expected to go to parachurch conferences, retreats and festivals if they want to give free expression to their worship and spiritual preferences.
quote:
Charismatic Catholicism is different partially because the Catholic tradition has never denied the gifts of the Spirit. So the renewal is in broader engagement with the gifts. What do you mean by Charismatic?
I'm not an Anglican or a Catholic, so to me 'charismatic' refers to the form of church expression and spirituality that grew out of the rise of Pentecostalism. I doubt that Pentecostalism and Catholicism have always had exactly the same understanding of what 'the gifts of the Spirit' are. However, you may well have more experience of comparing the two than I have. I'm more familiar with the Pentecostal side.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
...The concern I'd have in that case is that you'd get a lowest common denominator form of church...
...in other words, I'm afraid, it can lead to cafeteria christianity, or "christianity-lite".
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
So it's a question of personal preference, rather than of church culture? The concern I'd have in that case is that you'd get a lowest common denominator form of church. But I suppose people are expected to go to parachurch conferences, retreats and festivals if they want to give free expression to their worship and spiritual preferences.
.....
I'm not an Anglican or a Catholic, so to me 'charismatic' refers to the form of church expression and spirituality that grew out of the rise of Pentecostalism. I doubt that Pentecostalism and Catholicism have always had exactly the same understanding of what 'the gifts of the Spirit' are. However, you may well have more experience of comparing the two than I have. I'm more familiar with the Pentecostal side.
Anglicanism has its own identity, of which diversity is a part. Our common identity is expressed through shared liturgy and relationship with the apostolic ministry of our bishops. Many Anglicans may have personal preferences, but healthy Anglican spirituality is willing to move outside of comfort zones. My experience of being an in the CofE has been enriching rather than LCD!
As I can't get a definition of how you see Charismatic I am not sure how to explain how it works in a catholic context. Spiritual practice between pentecostals, charismatics, and third wave folks vary. A catholic charismatic approach would affirm the ongoing presence of the gifts, prayer ministry, use of contemporary worship, emotive and ecstatic response to God, but also the assured supernatural action of God in the sacraments.
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blog//twitter//
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I've regularly attended churches with everything from praise bands to sung choral matins, from hymn sandwich to solemn Eucharist, and a fair amount of slightly sloppy mishmash. In all of them there were Christians at varying stages of their journey of faith, and in none of them was there any sense that we were seeking anything less than full Christianity. Doing Christianity differently doesn't automatically mean doing it less, and a commitment that doesn't involve certainty about the right way to do things isn't "cafeteria Christianity", it's more like a really good church buffet - you try and squeeze a bit of everything on your plate because there are so many good cooks around. If you've discovered you really really like sausage rolls and salad then that's fine, but don't pretend that someone who likes a cheese and tomato sandwich and a pork pie is necessarily doing it wrong.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
So it's a question of personal preference, rather than of church culture? The concern I'd have in that case is that you'd get a lowest common denominator form of church. But I suppose people are expected to go to parachurch conferences, retreats and festivals if they want to give free expression to their worship and spiritual preferences.
.....
I'm not an Anglican or a Catholic, so to me 'charismatic' refers to the form of church expression and spirituality that grew out of the rise of Pentecostalism. I doubt that Pentecostalism and Catholicism have always had exactly the same understanding of what 'the gifts of the Spirit' are. However, you may well have more experience of comparing the two than I have. I'm more familiar with the Pentecostal side.
Anglicanism has its own identity, of which diversity is a part. Our common identity is expressed through shared liturgy and relationship with the apostolic ministry of our bishops. Many Anglicans may have personal preferences, but healthy Anglican spirituality is willing to move outside of comfort zones. My experience of being an in the CofE has been enriching rather than LCD!
As I can't get a definition of how you see Charismatic I am not sure how to explain how it works in a catholic context. Spiritual practice between pentecostals, charismatics, and third wave folks vary. A catholic charismatic approach would affirm the ongoing presence of the gifts, prayer ministry, use of contemporary worship, emotive and ecstatic response to God, but also the assured supernatural action of God in the sacraments.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
As I can't get a definition of how you see Charismatic I am not sure how to explain how it works in a catholic context.
But as I've said, my understanding derives from Pentecostalism. The definition I've come across it that Pentecostal spirituality in a mainstream or new church context is referred to as charismatic. Pentecostalism, so the story goes, brought back to the universal church an emphasis on the gifts of the Spirit. If we follow this explanation it would be reasonable to accept that since the early 20th c. the churches have taken taken that Pentecostal influence in various directions. (E.g. not all 'charismatic' churches would valorise speaking in tongues.)
However, what I've learnt from our discussion is that such a definition was always inadequate if Catholics and Anglicans consider Pentecostalism to be a negligible influence upon their own ancient and self-sufficient perspective on the gifts of the Spirit. This was something I hadn't realised before, hence my confusion. It's clearer now.
[ 06. April 2013, 02:05: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
But as I've said, my understanding derives from Pentecostalism. The definition I've come across it that Pentecostal spirituality in a mainstream or new church context is referred to as charismatic. Pentecostalism, so the story goes, brought back to the universal church an emphasis on the gifts of the Spirit. If we follow this explanation it would be reasonable to accept that since the early 20th c. the churches have taken taken that Pentecostal influence in various directions. (E.g. not all 'charismatic' churches would valorise speaking in tongues.)
However, what I've learnt from our discussion is that such a definition was always inadequate if Catholics and Anglicans consider Pentecostalism to be a negligible influence upon their own ancient and self-sufficient perspective on the gifts of the Spirit. This was something I hadn't realised before, hence my confusion. It's clearer now.
I wouldn't say negligible, just one part of a larger picture. Pentecostalism's roots are traceable back to more catholic Anglicanism in any case - through Wesley.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
[QUOTE]
Where he in flesh, our flesh was made
Our sentence bore, our ransom paid
Venantius Fortunatus 530-609 AD
Very succinct statement of PSA, it goes through the whole hymn.
Jengie
I don't know the hymn, but those lines are a statement of ransom theory, not PSA.
It's both:
'our ransom paid' is, er, ransom.
'Our sentence bore' is PSA - he bore our sentence. In other words, he took the judgment, penalty, sentence - took it from us and bore it himself. there is no other way of explaining it. Penal Substitutionary Atonement. Ta da!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Justin Welby v David Cameron: the Anglican Church is now the Labour Party at prayer
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
That article is rubbish.
I've read it through, and I wouldn't say it was rubbish, although I know plenty on here that would have a very different view of the things discussed.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
'Our sentence bore' is PSA - he bore our sentence. In other words, he took the judgment, penalty, sentence - took it from us and bore it himself. there is no other way of explaining it.
Nonsense. All that says is that our sentence is death, and that Jesus suffered it. It doesn't say anything about it being in our place, or happening in order to satisfy the pseudo-legal requirements of the divine law court.
If we're going to have another PSA thread can I just point out that Vicky Pryce must be feeling quite hard done by?
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
<snip> quote:
Where he in flesh, our flesh was made
Our sentence bore, our ransom paid
Venantius Fortunatus 530-609 AD
Very succinct statement of PSA, it goes through the whole hymn.
Jengie
Unfortunately the statement owes much more, I think, to J M Neale than to Fortunatus whose original Latin quote:
quo carne carnis conditor
suspensus est patibulo
would be more accurately, but less poetically translated as quote:
Where he in flesh, who our flesh made
was hung upon the gallows
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