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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Preaching the gospel to Roman Catholics
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
On the Aussie thread in AS, Gordon Cheng posted (rather provocatively IMO):
quote:
<snip> My latest Matthias Media project is on how to communicate the gospel to Roman Catholics. <snip>
Several responses followed, prompting GC to post:
quote:
You guys don't like to let things like this slip by, do you? Oh well, fair enough, the issues are quite significant. I think on that at least we can agree.
Leading to this from Puppycat:
quote:
What issues are quite significant GC? What do you mean by that? If you could just let me know then I'll know if I'm prepared to agree with what you're saying we can agree about.
And this from Ian Climacus:
quote:
There are differences between us all, on that I will agree.
But I can't agree that my Roman cousins need to have the Gospel communicated to them: all those I know live it far better than I could ever hope to. But this is getting perhaps Purgatorial.
To which GC responded:
quote:
Oh, I didn't mean you had to agree with me; just agreeing that the questions were important would be enough for me.
The sorts of things dealt with by the ecumenical creeds, the Athanasian creed and the Reformation questions about how we are made right with God are the things I'm thinking about.
Purgatorial indeed, Ian!
So here we are Gordon. Perhaps before things get any more narky on the Oz thread and Kelly has to come down and give us all detention (again), you could carry on this conversation here, starting with attempting to explain yourself.
[Changed thread title.]
[ 06. April 2006, 09:14: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
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Puppycat
Ship's Toast and Vegemite
# 4941
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Posted
quote:
You guys don't like to let things like this slip by, do you? Oh well, fair enough, the issues are quite significant. I think on that at least we can agree.
I personally would really like to know what these significant issues are and why we can agree on that fact.
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“The Angels stole my phone box.” Doctor Who ~ Blink
Pics of my trip to Israel and Paris
Posts: 1905 | From: Picnicking at Hanging Rock | Registered: Sep 2003
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
Here is a link to the Oz thread for non Australian interested parties, starting at Gordon's post that sparked things off.
Be warned, there is a lot of extraneous material there...what can I say, us Aussies love to talk to each other ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
quote:
Gordon Cheng posted:
My latest Matthias Media project is on how to communicate the gospel to Roman Catholics. <snip>
Matthias Media is about to publish the Missal? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) Or is it the Catechism?
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Put not your trust in princes.
Posts: 4894 | From: On the left of the big pink bit. | Registered: Apr 2003
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
As part of the necessary extensive research for his project, obviously Gordon has to study closely many Catholic sources, must read deeply into the history and documents of the Church all the way back to the earliest times, has to experience prayers like the rosary himself, and of course must attend Catholic mass multiple times. Clearly Gordon wouldn't want to write about something he has not got the first clue about. Once he comes into extensive contact with the Truth of Catholicism and the beautiful Catholic spirituality, it it inevitable that we will convert to Roman Catholicism and become a shining example for all - like so many zealous converts before him. Hence I commend him heartily for this undertaking and wish him all the best for his endeavour - and a speedy welcome back home. Bravely go where many Protestant have gone before - to Rome. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Matthias Media is about to publish the Missal? Or is it the Catechism?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Anybody interesting in contributing ideas to Evangeline Media for an outreach program to share the gospel with the non-christian branches of Evangelical Anglicans do feel free to PM me.
I've got some Christian tracts I'm going to distribute outside St Matthias next Sunday
Ok I'm quittin now I promise. Gordo has got enough attention from baiting us ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
[ 09. February 2006, 04:47: Message edited by: Evangeline ]
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Foaming Draught
The Low in Low Church
# 9134
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
....... has to study closely many Catholic sources, must read deeply into the history and documents of the Church all the way back to the earliest times, has to experience prayers like the rosary himself, and of course must attend Catholic mass multiple times........
Ah, I know of someone who fits the bill. German chap called Martin. Fine fellow. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Australians all let us ring Joyce
For she is young and free
Posts: 8661 | From: Et in Australia Ego | Registered: Feb 2005
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
I'd also like to note, as I did on the Oz thread, that us Orthodox have once again been overlooked in the "sub-Christian" stakes. Can someone from MM be assigned to save us?
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Puppycat
Ship's Toast and Vegemite
# 4941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
I'd also like to note, as I did on the Oz thread, that us Orthodox have once again been overlooked in the "sub-Christian" stakes. Can someone from MM be assigned to save us?
I suspect you'd have to give up your icons if you were Ian. How do you feel about that?
[ 09. February 2006, 05:16: Message edited by: Puppycat ]
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“The Angels stole my phone box.” Doctor Who ~ Blink
Pics of my trip to Israel and Paris
Posts: 1905 | From: Picnicking at Hanging Rock | Registered: Sep 2003
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Left at the Altar
Ship's Siren
# 5077
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Posted
I'm unsaved. Does that mean I get an icon too?
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Still pretty Amazing, but no longer Mavis.
Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
Hi all.
I was sticking to Oz thread and Circus 'cause I'm really busy right now. I don't know if I have time to do justice to a Purg discussion at the moment, as those who were taking part in the Rosary thread will have noticed (Sorry BTW, I don't like kicking things off and disappearing like that).
Anyway that's your warning, if you ask a question of me here it may or may not get an answer.
It may be a more fruitful discussion if we steered cleer of what's wrong with Roman Catholicism (and there's a lot that isn't, as well as a lot that is), and stayed with the question of whether people from different Christian strands should attempt to evangelize each other.
Just my thoughts. Thanks for letting me know about the thread too, DK.
GC
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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care
Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
I think that Christians should tell each other the good news. What's the problem?
My experience of different branches of Christianity is it's very easy to get caught up in your own little bit and miss out on important emphases that other people have. So I even think it's a good idea for evangelicals and Catholics (for example) to talk together about their differences and try to learn from each other.
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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
A directed effort to poach faithful from another denomination is IMHO entirely counter-productive to spreading the gospel in societies in which most citizens are non-Christian, or in our case, post-Christian. It diverts resources, time, and commitment on both sides: of the poachers, but if the poaching becomes significantly successful, of those who are being poached and generally will start to defend.
The only possible way in which this can be motivated is with a neolithic understanding of salvation as entirely binary with regards to one's own denomination: those who are part of one's denomination are saved, all others not. In that case, "other Christians" are with certainty not saved and are as much a target as anyone else. Perhaps they are even a better target, because they may require less "work per head saved", as they may not need as much convincing about Christian truths. However, if one admits that "other Christians" are on average more likely than non-Christians or post-Christians to be already saved - simply because they do know the gospel at least partly - then obviously it's better to direct one's efforts at those more obviously in need.
All that said I see no problem with simply making publically available one's position, even by contrasting one's teaching to that of other denominations. To provide information to those from other denominations who are already seeking to improve their Christian life is not an offense just because it could lead to a conversion. But that information should then be accurate and fair, and it should not be forced onto others with aggressive marketing methods. There's a difference between opening your arms wide and pushing hard.
So, in order to judge whether I find Gordon's project offensive, I would really have to see the final result and how it is "marketed". I have no objection in principle to him presenting his interpretation of the gospel in contrast to Roman Catholicism. I do not worry about a fair comparison, for I'm confident about the outcome...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Dee.
Ship's Theological Acrobat
# 5681
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Posted
Gordon thats naughty!!!
Make some controversial comments and then be to busy to have the conversation.
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Jesus - nice bloke, bit religious
Posts: 2679 | From: Under Downunder | Registered: Mar 2004
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
I think that Christians should tell each other the good news. What's the problem?
Cheesy, I think I can safely say, well with 99.95% certainty at least, that Matthias Media is not interested in sharing experiences with their "sub-Christian"(*) friends and learning from them. There are interested in showing who is right [them] and who is wrong [the Romans].
Ingo makes good points [as always]. Though surely a full and proper investigation would lead to Orthodoxy.
(*)as Evangeline posted on the Oz Thread, comments from there include describing Catholic practices as "sub-Christian", and saying the Gospel is compromised when Protestants and Catholics have joint events, say Carols. ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
[ 09. February 2006, 07:08: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by me:
(*)as Evangeline posted on the Oz Thread, comments from there include describing Catholic practices as "sub-Christian", and saying the Gospel is compromised when Protestants and Catholics have joint events, say Carols.
Sorry: I recalled the quote incorrectly: copying from Evangeline's post which is a quote from the article: "when Protestants and Roman Catholics get together for some joint expression of faith, be it a Carol service or an Easter rally, evangelism is set back and the preservation of Christians is hampered".
I can understand their position, I think: having once tried to be an evangelical of that stripe. I disagree with it, however. I was just trying to make the point that I doubt joint sharing of experiences is the main aim of this new treatise.
[ 09. February 2006, 07:13: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
On the other hand, perhaps Gordy is right. Om another thread somewhere I suggested that the two Archbishops of Sydney stand together in the breach fighting post-modernity, each believing the other is not truly a christian. The Sydney machinery became very upset at the suggestion.
So, gordy, let's have Matthias' wee book. And get Pell to launch it. As a sign of your commitment to the unity of the Body of Christ.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
On the other hand, perhaps Gordy is right. Om another thread somewhere I suggested that the two Archbishops of Sydney stand together in the breach fighting post-modernity, each believing the other is not truly a christian. The Sydney machinery became very upset at the suggestion.
So, gordy, let's have Matthias' wee book. And get Pell to launch it. As a sign of your commitment to the unity of the Body of Christ.
Zappa may be joking (I don't know), but is there any hope for the ecumenical venture, Gordon? Or are the "significant issues" you mention too big an issue for MM type evangelicalism for RCs to be recognised as "Christians".
I guess I am asking, does the idea that you have to "communicate the gospel to Roman Catholics" imply to you that Catholic faith must be altered in order for it to fit into "the Gospel"?
And Ian, mate:
quote:
Cheesy,
I think you'll find you're addressing Custard, cobber. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Sorry Custard... ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
I was typing with one hand, holding my niece on my lap and alternating between the ship and ABC Kids.
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
[ 09. February 2006, 08:05: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
I was typing with one hand, holding my niece on my lap and alternating between the ship and ABC Kids.
Are you sure you're not channelling Gordon??
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
I think I can safely say, well with 99.95% certainty at least, that Matthias Media is not interested in sharing experiences with their "sub-Christian"(*) friends and learning from them. There are interested in showing who is right [them] and who is wrong [the Romans]
Which is kind of funny, since casual observation suggests that the Romans tend to like the Gospels, and our Evangelist friends tend to like Romans. (I really do crack me up...)
Proclaiming the Gospel to everyone, within and without the Church, reminding ourselves of the grace which God extends to us through and Jesus, that God, in Christ Jesus, was (and is) reconciling the world to himself, is surely a Good Thing. I think that's what we try to do whenever we get together.
But that's not quite the same as some people telling other people that they have to deny their faith in Jesus so that they can be saved by faith in Jesus.
(I'm not a Roman Catholic but) I know Jesus better by my acquaintance with Catholics, not less.
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Put not your trust in princes.
Posts: 4894 | From: On the left of the big pink bit. | Registered: Apr 2003
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
quote:
I think that Christians should tell each other the good news. What's the problem?
The problem is when Christian Group A works under the assumption that members of Christian Group B are "unsaved," not Real Christians [tm], and need to be led away from the Dark Side of their own denomination into the light of Group A.
Sadly, this is been my experience with just about every Christian of the evangelical variety I've ever encountered. Absolutely NO interest in real ecumenical cooperation. They just want me to renounce Lutheran Christianity and my "invalid" baptism and get "born again" according to their own understanding of that term, through their own aggressive ministrations.
My quick answer to that? Nice try. Won't work. Get over it.
On the other hand...I know a community where the ELCA, ECUSA and RCC parishes in town have entered into a covenantal relationship with one another -- shared educational activities, joint fellowship events, shared worship services as they can. (I know on the day they signed their covenant they even pulled off a Eucharistic service -- the service was joint up to the point of the Great Thanksgiving, at which point the RCC's did their own thing and held their own Eucharist, while the Lutes and 'Piskies had their own Eucharist on the other side of the sanctuary. A bit bittersweet that it had to be that way...but just think about it; I mean, generations ago we were all killing one another in the Wars of Religion.) To me THAT is "telling the good news to one another." Ditto the rural ministry coalition that my parish belongs to -- several isolated small congregations of various denominations, some widely divergent from one another, who've come together to run a food and equipment bank, who have a community choir, who do youth activities perhaps every quarter, who do ecumenical services for things like Memorial Day -- Christians getting together to help people out in the community and enjoy fellowship with one another without an agenda of "sheep stealing." That's "telling the good news to one another."
Telling me that my baptism was a joke, that my Eucharist is a joke, that my favored style of worship is not "genuine" worship, that my denomination is apostate and that I'm not a Real Christian [tm] because my conversion process has not played itself out like that of my Grand Inquisitor is NOT "telling the good news to one another." It's being an ass. I'd just as soon that you wipe the dust of my denominational side of the street off your sandals and go home. Give yourself some martyrdom points for being rejected by the mean, liberal, crypto-Popish bitch who's no doubt going to hell anyway. There...feel better now?
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Sorry to double post, but I just reread what I wrote, and I want to clarify that the emphatic you at the end of my screed refers to any Christian of a different flavor who harbors an agenda of "converting" me out of my tradition. It does not refer to any particular individual here, unless s/he has that agenda. Just so we're clear.
And if I sound bitter, it's because I am. I have had it up to the top of my head trying to convert me out of my Christianity into theirs. I've had it with people who pretend to be my friends, who pretend to be interested in my own spiritual journey, simply so they can insinuate themselves into my circle of friends and eventually swoop down for the fundagelical "hard sell"; and then when I decline their invitation -- poof! -- they're no longer my friends. I've had it with people who presume to possess Godlike powers of discernment in determining who is on and off the salvation bus. I'd suggest to those people that they're engaging not in evangelism but its opposite. They're the kind of people who frightened me out of Christianity once.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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RainbowKate
Shipmate
# 9331
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
quote:
I think that Christians should tell each other the good news. What's the problem?
The problem is when Christian Group A works under the assumption that members of Christian Group B are "unsaved," not Real Christians [tm], and need to be led away from the Dark Side of their own denomination into the light of Group A.
Sadly, this is been my experience with just about every Christian of the evangelical variety I've ever encountered. Absolutely NO interest in real ecumenical cooperation. They just want me to renounce Lutheran Christianity and my "invalid" baptism and get "born again" according to their own understanding of that term, through their own aggressive ministrations.
That's been my experience too. When living amongst American evangelicals in Mexico their goal was to "convert the Catholics" which baffled me. Of course then they tried to convert me, and explained in the nicest of terms how Episcopalians were going to hell along with the Catholics, Lutherans, and oh, just about everyone else. I must have missed that bit in the Bible that said "Go forth and preach the Gospel to with arrogance".
There is always some group knocking on the door asking if I've been "saved". I'm happy to discuss my faith, but they are not interested. It's not about discussion for them. It's about carving another notch on their bedpost of converts. I respect their right to interpret the Gospel in their own way (though it almost always entails me going to hell), but they never reciprocate in same.
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Coffee is the answer
Posts: 1227 | From: Left at the loophole | Registered: Apr 2005
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Zwingli
Shipmate
# 4438
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Telling me that my baptism was a joke, that my Eucharist is a joke, that my favored style of worship is not "genuine" worship, that my denomination is apostate and that I'm not a Real Christian [tm] because my conversion process has not played itself out like that of my Grand Inquisitor is NOT "telling the good news to one another." It's being an ass. I'd just as soon that you wipe the dust of my denominational side of the street off your sandals and go home. Give yourself some martyrdom points for being rejected by the mean, liberal, crypto-Popish bitch who's no doubt going to hell anyway. There...feel better now?
That's what I always hated about Luther; the guy was just such a crypto-Papist. If only he had of abandoned the whole Salvation by Grace Alone thing and said the right Sinner's Prayer and invited Jesus into his heart then he could have been a Real Christian. Least he was better than Calvin though; not only did Calvin start life as an RC and believe in infant baptism, he was French, and we all know what God thinks of them.
My advise to Gordon: tell the Gospel to RC's just like you would anyone else. If they agree with you you have found a friend, if they disagree at least you know where you stand. Don't be shy to thoroughly explain what the gospel is and isn't like you would to your own congregation, or to the unchurched. While there may be a temptation to either add to or subtract from the message to either agree with or counter RC teaching, try to avoid doing so. And please, don't do a Two Ways to Live version directed at RC's; the rest of us couldn't stand the embarassment.
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rexory
Shipmate
# 4708
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Posted
And here I was thinking Sydney Diocese's chief mission was to convert us non-Bible-believing Anglicans in dioceses North, West and South by "planting" "bible-believing" churches in our backyards ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Seriously, though, GC, I do find the idea of trying to convert Catholics to the Sydney brand of "Christianity" a sad and pernicious activity.
(Or should that have been said in Hell?)
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Our first words on getting to heaven will be "Ohhh!", with an air of "Now I understand!" - CS Lewis, via Philip Yancey, "What Good is God", 2010
Posts: 2974 | From: Perth, Western Australia | Registered: Jul 2003
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RainbowKate:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
The problem is when Christian Group A works under the assumption that members of Christian Group B are "unsaved," not Real Christians [tm], and need to be led away from the Dark Side of their own denomination into the light of Group A.
Sadly, this is been my experience with just about every Christian of the evangelical variety I've ever encountered...
That's been my experience too. When living amongst American evangelicals in Mexico their goal was to "convert the Catholics" which baffled me. Of course then they tried to convert me, and explained in the nicest of terms how Episcopalians were going to hell along with the Catholics, Lutherans, and oh, just about everyone else. I must have missed that bit in the Bible that said "Go forth and preach the Gospel to with arrogance".
Attributing this excess specifically to evangelicals strikes me as too cute by half. It is not evangelicals who deny other Christians communion, who have traditionally pressured interdenominational Christian couples to both become the one true faith and to raise their children in their flavor of the faith, etc.
Declaring this kind of blindness "evangelical" is shockingly unaware of the excesses of one's own tradition. It is unChristian and unconscionable. It is entirely appropriate to oppose this kind of inter-Christian warfare, but let us start where we live. To do otherwise is to continue the fight while protesting that we are seeking peace.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
My denomination practices open communion and doesn't pursue "coerced conversion through marriage" as a membership enhancement strategy. (My pastor is in an interfaith marriage, BTW.) And neither does the ECUSA.
And -- I've never had to metaphorically beat off an obnoxious RCC or Unitarian or mainline Protestant proselytizer.
So I'm quite comfortable with what I've said.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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RainbowKate
Shipmate
# 9331
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Posted
I agree with you, Tom, but my experience has been with evangelicals. My RC friends have never tried to convert me or told me that my tradition was unholy or flawed. Actually, we tend to have rousing conversations about the flaws we see in our own traditions--something I've never heard from evangelicals.
ECUSA churches don't refuse anyone communion; I don't agree with the RC's that they do, but I'm not in the business of telling other traditions that they are wrong either. I just find it offensive when they tell me my tradition is wrong, especially when they have no interest in hearing how it brought me to Christ and has been life giving.
Posts: 1227 | From: Left at the loophole | Registered: Apr 2005
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quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401
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Posted
This raises a somewhat interesting question. Is it OK if some other person/group thinks you are seriously in error as long as they don't tell you that too much?
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
I would be interested in hearing from the converts that Gordon notches up. Maybe you could hire a little Nissan Micra to bring them round to tell us about it.
Now I am going to reach out to you with the Gospel Gordon: go here to find out how to be saved.
[ 09. February 2006, 14:31: Message edited by: Triple Tiara ]
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Quantpole: In the area where I live approximately 60 percent of the population has no religious affiliation.
I'm sure for those of you in other parts of the world this percentage is higher.
With those statistics in mind, why are you bothering with "sheep-stealing" other Christians who are happy in their faith traditions? Why aren't you directing your energies to the 60 or 70 or 80 or 90 percent of the people around you who have given up on Christianity entirely?
Why don't you just let me "work out my own salvation in fear and trembling" according to St. Paul's advice?
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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RainbowKate
Shipmate
# 9331
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quantpole:
This raises a somewhat interesting question. Is it OK if some other person/group thinks you are seriously in error as long as they don't tell you that too much?
Sure. I don't like that certain groups of people think I'm going to hell, but it doesn't bother me except when they are banging on my door to bring me that news. I can't very well tell other people how or what to think; I'd appreciate the same respect. I guess that's the real annoyance for me; I'd be happy to discuss our different faith/tradition if it were a discussion and not a conversion attempt.
Posts: 1227 | From: Left at the loophole | Registered: Apr 2005
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
I would like to come down firmly against Sheep-stealing. For obvious reasons.
I'm reading through this thread and there's a riff from Mel Brooks' 2000 Year Old Man that I'm thinking of (that just happened to be on the Simpsons the other night)...
quote:
Homer: [as Reiner] Sir, today every country has a national anthem. Did they have national anthems 2000 years ago?
Brooks: [Yiddish voice] Sure. Sure, we had. Of course, we was caves... but every cave had a national anthem. I'll never forget that my cave's national anthem was --
Homer: What was that...national anthem?
Brooks: [singing] Let 'em all go to hell.... except Cave 76!
My question is, can we truly be Christians if we don't let others express their own versions of the faith? Or are we just idolators, holding our own set of rubrics and rulebooks as the One True Holy Way and there Ain't No Other?
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
quote:
I'd be happy to discuss our different faith/tradition if it were a discussion and not a conversion attempt.
And therein lies the rub.
I had the experience, on another discussion forum, of a member who makes a great show of wanting to learn about comparative Christian theology. I had no reason to believe that she had any agenda behind this other than increasing mutual understanding, so I'd get in various and sundry conversations with her. Then it all came out: She used to belong to my denomination as a kid, became disillusioned as a young adult and dropped out of church for awhile, then "got saved," and is now on a mission to save everyone else. Her working assumption is that because she did not have a good early experience with my faith tradition, that we're all "unsaved" until she can ascertain otherwise.
This person finally grudgingly admitted that I was also "born again" (I actually did have my own adult metanoia after several years of Christianity vacation -- ironically, my own disillusionment was largely with the Religious Right's ascendancy in American Christendom), but wound up practically stallking me online in an effort to get me to change my denominational affiliation. I finally told her, in as nice a way as I could muster, that she was seriously overestimating my interest in continuing an online conversational relationship with her.
And I'm not the only one who's been the object of her aggression.
When this happens over and over and over again, you get sick of it.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Quantpole: In the area where I live approximately 60 percent of the population has no religious affiliation.
I'm sure for those of you in other parts of the world this percentage is higher.
With those statistics in mind, why are you bothering with "sheep-stealing" other Christians who are happy in their faith traditions? Why aren't you directing your energies to the 60 or 70 or 80 or 90 percent of the people around you who have given up on Christianity entirely?
Why don't you just let me "work out my own salvation in fear and trembling" according to St. Paul's advice?
With respect, you've just made a whole lot of assumptions from what was a fairly simple question. I have not said whether I agree with GC or not.
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
quote:
I think that Christians should tell each other the good news. What's the problem?
The problem is when Christian Group A works under the assumption that members of Christian Group B are "unsaved," not Real Christians [tm], and need to be led away from the Dark Side of their own denomination into the light of Group A.
Sadly, this is been my experience with just about every Christian of the evangelical variety I've ever encountered.
If there is one thing I really regret in my life, it's having done this in my more GLE days. Not in a nasty, shouty, Bible-bashy way - but praying earnestly that my RC or Anglican friends would get 'saved'. I should have known better. I do now. Sorry, guys.
The irony is (or perhaps the reason is) that my 11-year old newly-saved friend did it to me. Every morning at the bus-stop I got 'your church doesn't preach the gospel and you're going to hell'. It was only because of some more accepting evangelical friends that I actually came through that and my faith became more central to my life. So I decided that's when I 'became a Christian' and joined the ranks of those who would never knock someone from a different church - but might pray they got 'really saved' eventually.
I'm all for helping people with a church background to go deeper into their faith, and for us all to learn from each other's traditions. But that's a very different thing.
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Host hat on
Dark Knight, I changed the title of this thread because while shipmates have refrained from indulging in personal attack, a thread calling a shipmate by name to Purgatory does seem to invite personal attack. "Calling Gordon Cheng to Purgatory" implies that Gordon is the subject of the thread, so I changed the title to reflect the topic his posts raised.
RuthW
Purgatory host
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Quantpole: Sorry for the imprecise wording. I'm using you in the general, plural, "youse guys" sense...not you personally.
Again, I have been so harrassed by fellow Christians trying to "save" me from my faith tradition that it makes me very defensive. And apparently I am not the only one who's had this experience.
It makes me very angry, and frankly it makes me cautious about friendships with Christians of a certain theological point of view, because frankly I tend to doubt both their sincerity and their respect of my own Christian faith, even though my expression of same doesn't always look or sound like theirs. I'd love to be proven wrong; alas, my paranoia has been validated so many times that that might be a daunting task.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401
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Posted
No worries LC, I can fully understand where you're coming from. Like Gill H I've been a party to behaviour I regret now (my CU did a talk entitled Roman Catholicism: Another Religion? once), though nowhere near as bad as what you have described. It doesn't matter if the 'target' is a Christian or not - that sort of behaviour is inexcusable.
There is a very real danger in evangelicalism to see people as targets and take on a sort of martyr mentality of "doing the Lord's work". I would say that the situation seems to be somewhat worse in the US than over here though.
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
I was typing with one hand, holding my niece on my lap and alternating between the ship and ABC Kids.
Are you sure you're not channelling Gordon??
Sorry, but as I am unfamiliar with Australian TV shows for kids, this is rather opaque to me. Is it a swipe at Gordon?
RuthW
Purgatory host
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Yes - sorry, poor judgement on my part. I'll save further swipes for any forthcoming Hell thread.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Well, it is an odd world view really. The only possible justification for preaching to Catholics (or Lutherans, or Salvationists, or conevo Australian Catholics) with a view to conversion is if you honestly believe that the folks in those communions - or associated with those communions - won't encounter God where they are.
I mean we can all argue all the day long about the holes in our respective theologies (and we do on these Boards) but evangelising members of another is something else. Seeking to "correct" someone else's theological outlook is rude anyway. We need some sort of invitation if any dialogues along those lines are to make any sense.
But to evangelise? To see that as what you are doing? To elevate your denominational viewpoint to the level of exclusively infallible understanding of God's saving grace? Approaching members of another church community this way (and particularly if it is done stealthily or deceptively) is basically downright rude at best and downright blasphemous at worst. Who are we to judge Another's servant?
There is something in Matthew 23 which covers this sort of self-righteousness.
"Woe to you, scribes and pharisees, hypocrites! For you traverse sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as you yourselves".
Now I would have to be very sure of my ground to evangelise anyone in another denomination - in my terms - when it is possible that out of some sort of ineffable self righteousness, I was helping that person to become "twice as much a child of hell as me". Truth is, I would not do it. I have never done it. I have too much respect for the church as the body of Christ to even contemplate doing it. And, as is reasonably well known on these boards, I am by root belief an evangelical.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
I've been on the receiving end of attempts to win me away from my evangelicalism a number of times, including the attempts of a rather over zealous liberal chaplain at university.
When people try to correct my theology I try to remember that they are generally doing it because they are concerned for me.
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Sadly, this is been my experience with just about every Christian of the evangelical variety I've ever encountered. Absolutely NO interest in real ecumenical cooperation. They just want me to renounce Lutheran Christianity and my "invalid" baptism and get "born again" according to their own understanding of that term, through their own aggressive ministrations.
Does that include this "Christian of the evangelical variety" (viz me)?
What do I think about "Catholics"? I think there are a lot of committed catholics who are "saved", and a lot of nominal ones who aren't.
As with every other part of the church, and as with the church I attend, I think there may well also be some committed ones who aren't, and nominal ones who are.
But it's not my place to comment on individuals.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
quote:
When people try to correct my theology I try to remember that they are generally doing it because they are concerned for me.
That's not been my experience. My experience is that the people trying to correct my theology don't give a rat's patootie about me as a person, nor do they really care to hear about my own faith journey (which I'm quite happy to share), because they've already made up their minds that I am doomed.
One ex-member of a choir I was in, who crashed our practice one evening to inform us all that he had found the One True Faith and had come back to our apostate rat's nest to warn us to repent , said that when he died God was going to hold him personally accountable for every soul he could have saved but didn't try to, so that is why he had come to yell at us. I wouldn't call that "concern." I'd call that CYA vis-a-vis the Almighty.
Well, Custard, I don't know -- do you go around automatically assuming that someone who tells you that s/he's Christian is really self-delusional until you, Custard, can straighten him or her out, or ascertain from some presumed ex cathedra position that that person is indeed a Real Christian [tm]?
I don't go around doing this to other Christians. I don't automatically assume that other people who self-identify as Christians aren't Real Christians [tm] -- not even if I don't like or understand their theology or practice. I don't want every non-Lutheran in Christendom to immediately "repent" and become a Lutheran.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
LutheranChik
A rat's patootie! And CYA vis-a-vis the Almighty! Preach it sista! (You may convert a few to more ethical and considerate behaviour.)
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
quote:
When people try to correct my theology I try to remember that they are generally doing it because they are concerned for me.
That's not been my experience. My experience is that the people trying to correct my theology don't give a rat's patootie about me as a person, nor do they really care to hear about my own faith journey (which I'm quite happy to share), because they've already made up their minds that I am doomed.
When people assume that I am doomed, and they tell me about it to rescue me from that, I usually try to assume they are doing that because they don't want me to be doomed. That's all I was saying.
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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GoodCatholicLad
Shipmate
# 9231
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quantpole:
This raises a somewhat interesting question. Is it OK if some other person/group thinks you are seriously in error as long as they don't tell you that too much?
They can think whatever they want I don't care. It's none of their business what anyone's faith is or lack of and they should keep their mouth shut or the friendship is terminated. This is why I have a problem with fundamentalism of any faith, Christian, Muslim whatever.
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All you have is right now.
Posts: 1234 | From: San Francisco California | Registered: Mar 2005
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