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I think what we are discussing here is along the lines of "Why does God love me?" And I feel one should sing poetry about that, not plod throught precise theology.

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Originally posted by IngoB:
This does not mean that the Protestant cannot escape mortal sin, from a RCC point of view it's just that his perfect contrition cannot express itself fully. That the denial of the sacrament of confession is anathemized does thus not condemn all those who deny it today...

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
ISTM that this is saying we are by nature runaway prostitutes, and once a prostitute, always a prostitute. Wouldn't you say?

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
The issue is that, much as you have parsed it very pleasantly, the RC church does anathemise all who don't accept its' sacraments.

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
And you'll note that from your brilliant marriage analogy, it is not God who is in control of all of the "methods" of continuing and developing our "marriage" with him - it is the church, and not just any church but THE church.

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Can you see how easily (some might say inevitably) this leads to - say confession (or as in the case of the very well meaning priest I chatted to who taught in an RC theological college) get baptised, or you will go to hell?

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
You assume of course that we're willing brides, but this is undercut by Hosea 1-2. ISTM that this is saying we are by nature runaway prostitutes, and once a prostitute, always a prostitute. Wouldn't you say?

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Sorry Gordon, I don't quite follow you here. There's nothing in Hosea 1-2 that suggests to me that the prostitute objected to becoming Hosea's wife? And my analogy did not rely on us being model wives, quite to the contrary. I said "For the truth is that most of us have forgotten entirely that we are so married. We wander the world and jump into bed with every pretty face, but don't waste a thought on our lawful "husband", God. And even those of us who at least try to be faithful, often stumble. And those who manage to be faithful, are far from being a nice "wife": cranky, demanding, bitching - that's us, mostly." If it were otherwise, if we all were perfectly good and faithful wifes, then the sacraments of the church would make no sense. There would be no use for them, it would be at least like with Adam and Eve prior to the fall, if not like heaven. But it is not so, unfortunately.

In one sense though the analogy indeed fails. I have a choice whether and whom I marry, but by being a creature, by being a rational animal, I'm automatically "married" to God (really, a child of God, but then my analogy would get hopelessly confused... ).

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Again, it works, mainly because the Bible says so notably in Ephesians 5:32, but if it says it in one place of course it says it everywhere.

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You assume of course that we're willing brides, but this is undercut by Hosea 1-2. ISTM that this is saying we are by nature runaway prostitutes, and once a prostitute, always a prostitute. Wouldn't you say?

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Which is a problem for the way you've worked the analogy, because you've portrayed us as willing partners in our salvation. Hosea says we're not. Do you believe him?

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Originally posted by IngoB:

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
The issue is that, much as you have parsed it very pleasantly, the RC church does anathemise all who don't accept its' sacraments.

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Well, of course by not accepting its' sacraments, you are in effect anathemizing the RCC. For what else does that say other than that the RCC is getting an essential piece of its theology and a fundamental building block of its spirituality and pastoral care wrong? So frankly, I think that is fair enough. But the RCC also officially accepts the possibility, even likelihood, of the salvation of its Protestant brethren. Is that mutual as well? You be the judge...

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But yes, your conclusion is basically correct. The RC faith is a web of interlocking beliefs and hence if one is strictly honest, they basically all stand or fall together. If the RCC (plus more or less Orthodoxy) is indeed the church, instituted by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit, then your problem simply disappears. The church is then simply the instrument - the body - of Christ, acting out in this world through fallible means the infallible will of God.

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
You assume of course that we're willing brides, but this is undercut by Hosea 1-2. ISTM that this is saying we are by nature runaway prostitutes, and once a prostitute, always a prostitute. Wouldn't you say?

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
That, ISTM, is rather a manipulative argument. "We anathemise you, and if you don't accept that and fall into line then you are the anathemiser!"

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Then here's the rub. At the heart of Protestant ecclesiology is that the church does not mediate between us and God. My problem doesn't disappear!

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
I didn't post this.

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Originally posted by IngoB:
It does. Since the church is the body of Christ, and Christ its head is inspiring it with the Holy Spirit, any "mediation" by the church is in effect a mediation by Christ. Jesus did not incarnate as invincible superman. Just as his historical body wasn't perfect, was human, so his current ecclesiastical body isn't perfect, is human.

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I think the true difficulty is this: Protestants are suspicious of any non-mental realization of our communication with God, whereas Catholics revel in it.

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The glitz of the mass, the rosaries and Saints' medals, and of course most prominently, the priest as stand-in for Christ who offers sacraments that are efficient in themselves (ex opere operato), the real presence of Christ in bread and wine... - all these embody our spiritual life in actual objects and persons. It's a truly incarnational view of the spiritual life.

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But I think the incarnation is of prime importance not only concerning its theological consequences, but also concerning spiritual life and pastoral care.

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We can meet God as humans now, body and spirit. Sometimes I think the Protestant extreme emphasis on "loving your neighbour" as proof of the Christian life, which results in the ironical situation that Protestants are generally very concerned whether they are doing enough good works, stems from this. As good Christians they know that spirit alone isn't enough. But since they have stripped the love of God, worship, of incarnational aspects, they now transfer this instinct all the more on the love of neighbour.

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In the human nature united to Himself the Son of God, by overcoming death through His own death and resurrection, redeemed man and re-molded him into a new creation.(50) By communicating His Spirit, Christ made His brothers, called together from all nations, mystically the components of His own Body.

In that Body the life of Christ is poured into the believers who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to Christ who suffered and was glorified.(6*) Through Baptism we are formed in the likeness of Christ: "For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body"(51). In this sacred rite a oneness with Christ's death and resurrection is both symbolized and brought about: "For we were buried with Him by means of Baptism into death"; and if "we have been united with Him in the likeness of His death, we shall be so in the likeness of His resurrection also"(52) Really partaking of the body of the Lord in the breaking of the eucharistic bread, we are taken up into communion with Him and with one another. "Because the bread is one, we though many, are one body, all of us who partake of the one bread".(53) In this way all of us are made members of His Body,(54) "but severally members one of another".(55)

As all the members of the human body, though they are many, form one body, so also are the faithful in Christ.(56) Also, in the building up of Christ's Body various members and functions have their part to play. There is only one Spirit who, according to His own richness and the needs of the ministries, gives His different gifts for the welfare of the Church.(57) What has a special place among these gifts is the grace of the apostles to whose authority the Spirit Himself subjected even those who were endowed with charisms.(58) Giving the body unity through Himself and through His power and inner joining of the members, this same Spirit produces and urges love among the believers. From all this it follows that if one member endures anything, all the members co-endure it, and if one member is honored, all the members together rejoice.(59)

The Head of this Body is Christ. He is the image of the invisible God and in Him all things came into being. He is before all creatures and in Him all things hold together. He is the head of the Body which is the Church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He might have the first place.(60) By the greatness of His power He rules the things in heaven and the things on earth, and with His all-surpassing perfection and way of acting He fills the whole body with the riches of His glory

All the members ought to be molded in the likeness of Him, until Christ be formed in them.(62) For this reason we, who have been made to conform with Him, who have died with Him and risen with Him, are taken up into the mysteries of His life, until we will reign together with Him.(63) On earth, still as pilgrims in a strange land, tracing in trial and in oppression the paths He trod, we are made one with His sufferings like the body is one with the Head, suffering with Him, that with Him we may be glorified.(64)

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Cf Gal. 6, 15; 2 Cor. 5,17.

51 Cor. 12, 13.

52 Rom. 6, 15.

53 1 Cor. 10, 17.

54 Cf 1 Cor 12, 27.

55 Rom. 12, 5.

56 Cf. 1 Cor. 12, 12.

57 Cf. 1 Cor. 12, 1-11.

58 Cf. 1 Cor. 14.

59 Cf. l Cor. 12, 26.

60 Cf. Col. 1, 15-18.

61 Cf. Eph. 1, 18-23.

62 Cf. Gal. 4, 19.

63 Cf. Phil. 3, 21, 2 Tim. 2, 11; Eph. 2, 6; Col. 2, 12 etc.

64 Cf. Rom. 8, 17.

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Just as Christ carried out the work of redemption in poverty and persecution, so the Church is called to follow the same route that it might communicate the fruits of salvation to men. Christ Jesus, "though He was by nature God . . . emptied Himself, taking the nature of a slave",(Phil. 2, 6) and "being rich, became poor"(2 Cor. 8, 9) for our sakes. Thus, the Church, although it needs human resources to carry out its mission, is not set up to seek earthly glory, but to proclaim, even by its own example, humility and selfsacrifice. Christ was sent by the Father "to bring good news to the poor, to heal the contrite of heart",(Lk. 4, 18) "to seek and to save what was lost".(Lk. 19, 1O) Similarly, the Church encompasses with love all who are afflicted with human suffering and in the poor and afflicted sees the image of its poor and suffering Founder. It does all it can to relieve their need and in them it strives to serve Christ.

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I'm still interested in the bit where Ingo, Duo or Trisagion point us in the direction of where the Roman church has decisively repudiated the anathemas pronounced at the Council of Trent in 1547.

Until then the rest of what they say about believing fairly much the same stuff as other Christians is either inaccurate, or the stuff of smoke and mirrors.

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Another possibility is that you've been sucked in by the smartness of Duo and Ingo, which is easily done but unwise.

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I'm still interested in the bit where Ingo, Duo or Trisagion point us in the direction of where the Roman church has decisively repudiated the anathemas pronounced at the Council of Trent in 1547.

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Originally posted by PeteCanada:
I'm interested in the bit where Gordon Cheng will explain why Catholics are not Christian and need to be evangelised by other Christians.

One small post will do.

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
As for "needing to be evangelised", is there anyone who doesn't need that?

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Jesus is Lord of all, he died to take the penalty I deserved for my sin.

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If I were to be woken every 25 minutes in the middle of a much needed night of sleep to hear this news again, I would whisper "Thank you, Lord" and roll over.

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Originally posted by GreyFace:

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Jesus is Lord of all, he died to take the penalty I deserved for my sin.

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I think it's time we had another one of those threads. I would have said the Good News was redemption and resurrection, not penal substitutionary atonement.

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Typical liberal narrowness, GreyFace. I affirm what you affirm, and I affirm what you deny.

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Liberal?

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
...the distinction between imputed and imparted righteousness is thoroughly fudged. Once the two are confused the gospel is lost, but at least we can reach agreement.

Trent ... anathematizes what I believe to be the unique saving gospel...

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Anyway, the question again. Given that I am mildly ignorant of a lot of roman catholicism, I'm still waiting to hear where the anathemas of the Council of Trent were repudiated.

All the things that were specifically condemned there concerning justification by faith alone are what I believe. And do you know, I even believe them in their 16th century context, as the Bible itself teaches these things.

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Gordon your position simply doesn't make sense.

IngoB has already explained the nature of the "anathema" issue and I commented on it too. We have both commented at great length on the question of the teachings of the Catholic Church on grace, justification and Christian holiness - and we've even cited the Bible in doing it. I've commented on your understanding of the Council of Trent and separately on the meaning of Tradition.

What really surprises me is that you refuse to engage with the statements in the Catechism and the Vatican II documents. Beyond commenting on the JDDJ as "sneaky" with an air of diappointment, you haven't engaged with that either. That is basically because you cannot accept that part of a living Tradition is that our understanding of God's message to us has deepened over time. That's one message for sure - but we have learned more and more about it and deepened in our understanding of it as a result.

Which is why in criticising the Catholic Church now in 2006 it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to ignore the much more recent pronouncements on the Magisterium.

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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)

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Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
. That is basically because you cannot accept that part of a living Tradition is that our understanding of God's message to us has deepened over time. That's one message for sure - but we have learned more and more about it and deepened in our understanding of it as a result.

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3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Passages like 2 Tim 4:3-4 rather suggest that the opposite will be the case.

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3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

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And there is plenty of evidence that churches have wandered into superstition and myth over the centuries.

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Yeah, clearly that's a prophesy with regards to Calvin et al.

Look Gordon, I think the one and only reason why you are so terribly keen to be anathemized and declared a heretic is that you need that to justify your own actions. If the RCC is treating you that badly, so your (not particularly other cheek turning) logic goes, then you can slag them to your heart's content. And you can collect your 30 pieces of silver from Matthias Media for a sheep-stealing tract and feel all righteous about it, for you'll be saving souls. For if we were able to convince you otherwise, wouldn't you have to give up that project? You cannot serve God and mammon.

The one thing a perpetual reformation needs, which wants to stay static and stuck in the 16the century, is of course that the big bad enemy no. 1 loudly protested against also remains static and stuck in the 16th century. But the RCC is rapidly becoming wise as serpents and harmless as doves, so instead of striking your Achilles heel it would rather peck out the eye that causes your sin. Too bad the RCC is a moving target, you will need to update the old rhetorics...

Nevertheless, and you are quite right, Trent stands as it is. And if you read Trent in the same way that would render Pi=3 according to 1 Kings 7:23, then indeed Gordon Cheng is anathema. And since you clearly need some authority to smack you down: For the good cause of supporting your lovely daughters, I hereby solemnly declare with the Divine power not particularly vested in me that Gordon Cheng is an arch-heretic! I hope that helps.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:

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Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
. That is basically because you cannot accept that part of a living Tradition is that our understanding of God's message to us has deepened over time. That's one message for sure - but we have learned more and more about it and deepened in our understanding of it as a result.

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This is precisely where we find the fudge and squish that allows you tricksy canon lawyer types to retreat from the plain meaning of words.

Within this "deepening" and livingness of tradition, is there even a microbe of recantation of past errors? Something along the lines of "Yes, er, we did say that in 1547 and we meant it too, but we now realize we were wrong."

Now I don't mind if the answer is "You'll get no recantation, 'cause we were right and you were wrong, and you still are". That is a straightforward view which someone like me, ossified as I am in my 16th century categories, can live with and respect.

(And by the way, I don't really hold a candle for the 16th century, I just happen to think that the Protestants then were thinking more biblically than they are these days)

But this "deepening of living tradition" jargon — what does it actually mean? Is it the Roman Catholic view that the church is somehow more spiritual in 2006 than it was in 1006? Where is the evidence for this? Do we meet any expectation in Scripture that the apostles thought there would be a "deepening" of tradition?

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9:But as it is written: "What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him,"
10 this God has revealed to us through the Spirit.For the Spirit scrutinizes everything, even the depths of God.
11 Among human beings, who knows what pertains to a person except the spirit of the person that is within? Similarly, no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God.
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God.
13 And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms.
14 Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually.
15 The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment by anyone.
16For "who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
Cor 2 9-16

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Do not conform yourselves to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and pleasing and perfect.

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"You'll get no recantation, 'cause we were right and you were wrong, and you still are".

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15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God's gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.


...19.We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God's judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities.Justification takes place solely by God's grace. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say:

20.When Catholics say that persons "cooperate" in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God's justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities.

21.According to Lutheran teaching, human beings are incapable of cooperating in their salvation, because as sinners they actively oppose God and his saving action. Lutherans do not deny that a person can reject the working of grace. When they emphasize that a person can only receive (mere passive) justification, they mean thereby to exclude any possibility of contributing to one's own justification, but do not deny that believers are fully involved personally in their faith, which is effected by God's Word. [cf. Sources for 4.1].

22.We confess together that God forgives sin by grace and at the same time frees human beings from sin's enslaving power and imparts the gift of new life in Christ. When persons come by faith to share in Christ, God no longer imputes to them their sin and through the Holy Spirit effects in them an active love. These two aspects of God's gracious action are not to be separated, for persons are by faith united with Christ, who in his person is our righteousness (1 Cor 1:30): both the forgiveness of sin and the saving presence of God himself. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say that:

23.When Lutherans emphasize that the righteousness of Christ is our righteousness, their intention is above all to insist that the sinner is granted righteousness before God in Christ through the declaration of forgiveness and that only in union with Christ is one's life renewed. When they stress that God's grace is forgiving love ("the favor of God"[12]), they do not thereby deny the renewal of the Christian's life. They intend rather to express that justification remains free from human cooperation and is not dependent on the life-renewing effects of grace in human beings.

24.When Catholics emphasize the renewal of the interior person through the reception of grace imparted as a gift to the believer,[13] they wish to insist that God's forgiving grace always brings with it a gift of new life, which in the Holy Spirit becomes effective in active love. They do not thereby deny that God's gift of grace in justification remains independent of human cooperation.

25.We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life. They place their trust in God's gracious promise by justifying faith, which includes hope in God and love for him. Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works. But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.

...27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place....

31.We confess together that persons are justified by faith in the gospel "apart from works prescribed by the law" (Rom 3:28). Christ has fulfilled the law and by his death and resurrection has overcome it as a way to salvation. We also confess that God's commandments retain their validity for the justified and that Christ has by his teaching and example expressed God's will which is a standard for the conduct of the justified also.

32.Lutherans state that the distinction and right ordering of law and gospel is essential for the understanding of justification. In its theological use, the law is demand and accusation. Throughout their lives, all persons, Christians also, in that they are sinners, stand under this accusation which uncovers their sin so that, in faith in the gospel, they will turn unreservedly to the mercy of God in Christ, which alone justifies them.

33.Because the law as a way to salvation has been fulfilled and overcome through the gospel, Catholics can say that Christ is not a lawgiver in the manner of Moses. When Catholics emphasize that the righteous are bound to observe God's commandments, they do not thereby deny that through Jesus Christ God has mercifully promised to his children the grace of eternal life.[18] [See Sources for section 4.5]...

37.We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - follow justification and are its fruits. When the justified live in Christ and act in the grace they receive, they bring forth, in biblical terms, good fruit. Since Christians struggle against sin their entire lives, this consequence of justification is also for them an obligation they must fulfill. Thus both Jesus and the apostolic Scriptures admonish Christians to bring forth the works of love.

38.According to Catholic understanding, good works, made possible by grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, contribute to growth in grace, so that the righteousness that comes from God is preserved and communion with Christ is deepened. When Catholics affirm the "meritorious" character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize the responsibility of persons for their actions, not to contest the character of those works as gifts, or far less to deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace.

39.The concept of a preservation of grace and a growth in grace and faith is also held by Lutherans. They do emphasize that righteousness as acceptance by God and sharing in the righteousness of Christ is always complete. At the same time, they state that there can be growth in its effects in Christian living. When they view the good works of Christians as the fruits and signs of justification and not as one's own "merits", they nevertheless also understand eternal life in accord with the New Testament as unmerited "reward" in the sense of the fulfillment of God's promise to the believer. [See Sources for section 4.7].

...

41.Thus the doctrinal condemnations of the 16th century, in so far as they relate to the doctrine of justification, appear in a new light: The teaching of the Lutheran churches presented in this Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent. The condemnations in the Lutheran Confessions do not apply to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church presented in this Declaration.

42.Nothing is thereby taken away from the seriousness of the condemnations related to the doctrine of justification. Some were not simply pointless. They remain for us "salutary warnings" to which we must attend in our teaching and practice.[21]

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Originally posted by IngoB:
Gordon, you have a weird idea of how the RCC conducts its doctrinal business.

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tradition being degeneration rather than development.

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
tradition being degeneration rather than development

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Not so much a weird idea as a theory, more or less to do with tradition being degeneration rather than development.

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Originally posted by Evo1:
[O]nce Jesus had left the earthly realm, it didn't take his followers long to start going off on follies of their own.

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Such as the New Testament?

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I've been asserting that the Bible teaches what Trent condemns, and I'm pleased to see that there's at least one Roman Catholic in the world who thinks that as a result, I am anathema.

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We excommunicate and anathematise him, and from the thresholds of the Holy Church of God Almighty we sequester him, that he may be tormented, disposed and delivered over with Dathan and Abiram, and with those who say unto the Lord God, ‘depart from us, we desire none of thy ways’. And as fire is quenched with water, so let the light of him be put out for evermore, unless it shall repent him and make satisfaction. Amen.

May the Father who created man, curse him. May the Son who suffered for us, curse him. May the Holy Ghost who was given to us in baptism, curse him. May the Holy Cross which Christ for our salvation triumphing over his enemies, ascended, curse him.

May the holy and eternal Virgin Mary, Mother of God, curse him. May St. Michael the advocate of holy souls, curse him. May all the angels and archangels, principalities and powers, and all the heavenly armies, curse him.

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And so on... [BTW, this is of course a propaganda text from Tristram Shandy. But it's damned cool. At least those anti-Catholics were creative... ]

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear