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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Is Jesus Christ the Only Way of Salvation?
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universalist
Shipmate
# 10318
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Posted
"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life"--Jesus. Was Jesus intention to polarize? Was the central claim of Jesus that he is the only way, the only truth and the only life? It seems that there is a "Yes" and a "No" to the question. Possibly, the following might be helpful:
Jesus is more a "nature" than a "name." Jesus was not insisting that all believe on his "name" phonetically, but rather, that all would believe in the essential good nature of God. That "good nature" is inclusive and never exclusive. Jesus was not insisting that people believe a lot of hard to believe things about himself; rather, he was encouraging everyone to love, believe and embrace the various good character attributes of God.
The apostle Paul spoke of "Gentiles" who knew nothing about Christianity and Christ, but were relating implicitly to Jesus "by nature", spirit and attitude (Romans 2:14). Jesus himself also seemed to validate this concept. His disciples encountered other spiritual people who, by nature, were doing a valid spiritual work and yet not a part of the "in" group. They became jealous and territorial, ran to Jesus to "tattle" on one of these: "Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us."
But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in my name can soon afterward speak evil of me. For he who is not against us is on our side. For whoever gives you a cup of cold water to drink in my name (nature), because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward" (Mark 9:38-41).
Many today, not knowing or "accepting" the "name" of Jesus, are none the less bearing witness to his nature as they pursue the good works of loving God and serving others. There are many paths up the mountain, but the view on top is the same--AA saying.
[edited thread title for archiving]
[ 10. January 2006, 04:45: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 66 | From: portland oregon | Registered: Sep 2005
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by universalist:
Jesus is more a "nature" than a "name." Jesus was not insisting that all believe on his "name" phonetically, but rather, that all would believe in the essential good nature of God. That "good nature" is inclusive and never exclusive. Jesus was not insisting that people believe a lot of hard to believe things about himself; rather, he was encouraging everyone to love, believe and embrace the various good character attributes of God.
And how exactly did you come by this knowledge?
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Posts: 2821 | Registered: Sep 2004
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universalist
Shipmate
# 10318
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Posted
"By their fruits you shall know them..."
Posts: 66 | From: portland oregon | Registered: Sep 2005
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Peronel
The typo slayer
# 569
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Posted
I don't see how that connects.
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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Perhaps becauuse it's Jesus saying that how people act (ie their fruits) may just matter more than which specific set of beliefs they hold to?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
Oh but it SOUNDS so good, doesn't it?
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
Maybe it means that both are required?
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
To answer the OP more directly by responding to the question in the title while bypassing the very specific body of text, my answer would be yes.
I think Jesus says he is the Way + Truth + Life (WT&L) and that he most certainly means it--even if you wanted to assert that he may not have uttered those exact words, it seems to be a concept that the gospel writers picked up on and tried to convey.
However, here's an interesting follow-up question:
If Jesus IS the only WT&L, what does that necessarily infer?
We make hundreds of unwarranted inferences from this rather enigmatic statement by Jesus, in my opinion.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by universalist:
Jesus is more a "nature" than a "name." Jesus was not insisting that all believe on his "name" phonetically, but rather, that all would believe in the essential good nature of God.
In my tradition, Jesus is the Divine Truth. His mission was the mission of Divine Truth. This is why He is the Word.
No one comes to God except through the truth. It's that simple.
The harder part is that only Jesus teaches that truth.
Still, to the extent that people anywhere in any religious tradition believe what is true, to that extent they come to God.
So what Jesus said is both quite specific and quite universal.
I don't think that it is about believing in the good nature of God, but rather about rejecting false and harmful things and accepting what is true and right.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
The idea that "No one comes to the Father except through me" -- a favorite prooftext of the turn-or-burn folks -- is not the same as saying, "No one comes to the Father except by believing 'X' number of intellectual propositions about me." I believe that Jesus Christ has effected salvation for humankind, and I think that, of course, as Christians we always want to, as a friend of mine puts it, "say the least wrong things about God" -- but I don't believe that one earns salvation by affirming the right set of creedal statements about Jesus Christ. Salvation isn't a catechism exam.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
The truth is a person. Jesus is that person. So yes, people can only come to God the Father (who is a person) through Jesus (who is a person) by the power of the Spirit of Truth (who is a person). If you want to participate in the essence of God (who is a person) you need to come to Him in the way that he has ordained.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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universalist
Shipmate
# 10318
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Posted
One who "sees" God in ones heart cannot help but produce good fruit. I think that Jesus would be more concerned that individuals would "hear his voice" than that they would "accept his name."
"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold..." These would be those to whom Paul referred, Gentiles who "by nature do those things contained in the law", not knowing of Christianity or Jesus.
It could also refer to those of Jesus' time who did not know Jesus by name, nor were they "saved" Christians, but none the less cast out demons in my "name" (nature). Whereas the disciples questioned their spiritual authenticity (like we would tend to do), Jesus fully accepted them.
bob (www.godquest.org)
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
Bob, are you actually having a dialogue here, or are you promoting your website?
I apologise if that question seems a little blunt, but I'm genuinely curious.
For my part, I believe that the cited text means that no-one is saved, except through Jesus. It tells us nothing about who Jesus will save. Someone whose religious beliefs are utterly different to mine or yours could still be saved through Jesus. And I'm not going to attempt to say who is and is not saved. Ever.
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
For my part, I believe that the cited text means that no-one is saved, except through Jesus. It tells us nothing about who Jesus will save.
Or how.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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whitelaughter
Shipmate
# 10611
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by universalist:
Jesus is more a "nature" than a "name."
How about "Jesus is a human being"?
Is theory really necessary? There *might* be people on this planet who has never met Jesus, but they'd have to be very young and/or very sheltered. When did you feed, clothe or visit Jesus? Matthew 25 is pretty straightforward.
Posts: 114 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by m.t_tomb:
The truth is a person. Jesus is that person. So yes, people can only come to God the Father (who is a person) through Jesus (who is a person) by the power of the Spirit of Truth (who is a person). If you want to participate in the essence of God (who is a person) you need to come to Him in the way that he has ordained.
This is the sort of opinion that makes it difficult (if not impossible) for me to accept Christianity as a living path to God. The truth is not "a person". God is not "a person". The power of the Spirit of Truth is not "a person". I don't "need" to come to "Him" in the way that YOU have ordained.
This type of blunt conviction in the form of textual misrepresentation with no apparent reverence for the meaning behind the platitudes espoused does more to drive seekers away from the truth than attract them.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
For my part, I believe that the cited text means that no-one is saved, except through Jesus. It tells us nothing about who Jesus will save.
Or how.
To both of you, I say, "Preach on."
Great stuff.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
Well I can see the confusion with the one verse cited. But on clear reading of John, there are lots of other helpful hints. Like this one from John 3:
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
Now this one is talking about the person rather than the method of salvation.
This one I think is more pertinent still (1John 5):
"Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son."
I would find it helpful if the universalists would give verses which suggest the opposite of this rather than taking us on mystery tours around the possible alternative meanings of seemingly obvious scripts.
Love,
Evo1
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
I would like to add to the above some hope.
From experience, when I have said things like the above, others have said things like, "So I suppose you just write off everyone else who doesn't believe in Jesus as the Son of God".
What nonsense this is. None of us knows which of us will be enabled by God to love Jesus - whether past present or future. To point anyone out and say, "what about them, they are not a Christian, what do you say about them" in my mind is quite wrong. It is just not up to us to say who will or will not accept Christ in the end.
I am so glad that people did not give up on me.
Love,
Evo1
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:
Originally posted by m.t_tomb:
The truth is a person. Jesus is that person. So yes, people can only come to God the Father (who is a person) through Jesus (who is a person) by the power of the Spirit of Truth (who is a person). If you want to participate in the essence of God (who is a person) you need to come to Him in the way that he has ordained.
This is the sort of opinion that makes it difficult (if not impossible) for me to accept Christianity as a living path to God. The truth is not "a person". God is not "a person". The power of the Spirit of Truth is not "a person". I don't "need" to come to "Him" in the way that YOU have ordained.
This type of blunt conviction in the form of textual misrepresentation with no apparent reverence for the meaning behind the platitudes espoused does more to drive seekers away from the truth than attract them.
It's got two edges. Anyway, who ever said that truth was attractive? Cockroaches scatter when the light is turned on...
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
The construction my former rector put on the "noone comes to the Father except by me" was that Jesus is the gatekeeper, the WT&L. And nothing more or less than that. Not "you must be Christian, and by that I mean belonging to an Approved Church of modern America, or you will be damned" What that means for us is that we are not the gatekeeper -- we do not know who, Christian or otherwise will be saved, it's above our pay grade. We are to get about His business of loving himself and loving him in others and he takes care of the saved/not saved thing.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I agree with Teufelchen and Mousethief.
God is in charge of the salvation business -- the "who" and the "how."
That sounds a bit like 'Calvinism' to me. I'm sure that Mousethief will distance himself from that faster than... well, quite quickly.
[ 14. November 2005, 08:51: Message edited by: m.t_tomb ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:
Originally posted by m.t_tomb:
The truth is a person. Jesus is that person. So yes, people can only come to God the Father (who is a person) through Jesus (who is a person) by the power of the Spirit of Truth (who is a person). If you want to participate in the essence of God (who is a person) you need to come to Him in the way that he has ordained.
This is the sort of opinion that makes it difficult (if not impossible) for me to accept Christianity as a living path to God. The truth is not "a person". God is not "a person". The power of the Spirit of Truth is not "a person". I don't "need" to come to "Him" in the way that YOU have ordained.
This type of blunt conviction in the form of textual misrepresentation with no apparent reverence for the meaning behind the platitudes espoused does more to drive seekers away from the truth than attract them.
I don't think you'll find anything in the Gospels that hint at Jesus making it easy for anyone to believe or follow him - quite the opposite in fact.
The gate is strait (restricted), the road is narrow, there is a cross to take up, a self to deny, riches to give away, the 'dead' to leave behind.
Even the disciples were shocked 'Who then can be saved?'
'With men it's impossible, but with God all things are possible.' was the Lord's reply.
We have tried 'easy-believism' and the church ahs declined dramtically. Perhaps now we should be brave enough (from a marketing point of view) to say, "The Lord doesn't want followers who find it easy - only the 'brave' need apply."
I'm sorry, but Christian faith and salvation is not an easy philosophy to follow. If you want that, join a local society, or the rotary.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
The construction my former rector put on the "noone comes to the Father except by me" was that Jesus is the gatekeeper, the WT&L. And nothing more or less than that. Not "you must be Christian, and by that I mean belonging to an Approved Church of modern America, or you will be damned" What that means for us is that we are not the gatekeeper -- we do not know who, Christian or otherwise will be saved, it's above our pay grade. We are to get about His business of loving himself and loving him in others and he takes care of the saved/not saved thing.
With all the dross that I see in this place, I sometimes wonder why I keep coming back. Then I see posts like this, and I say to myself, oh, yeah, I remember.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
I think that Jesus' words in this instance must be understood in Trinitarian terms. He is talking about the fact that he and the Father are so intimately related to each other (and implicit in this statement comes the Spirit as the bond of love) that to 'come to' one is to meet the other.
We can't take the Reality of God's triune nature and say. 'Well, OK, For Christians God's like that but for Hindus or Muslims or Atheists he isn't.' God is not triune because we say he is; we say he's triune because he is. Jesus is God. To come to the Father means meeting Jesus.
So yes, in some respects the paths do all lead up the mountain. But it's Jesus who'll be waiting for everyone at the top. I'm sorry, but IMO, you simply can't change that fact. You simply can't meet God without meeting Jesus, because that is who God is.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by m.t_tomb:
So yes, in some respects the paths do all lead up the mountain. But it's Jesus who'll be waiting for everyone at the top. I'm sorry, but IMO, you simply can't change that fact. You simply can't meet God without meeting Jesus, because that is who God is.
So anyone who subscribes to a belief in "god" would then, by this definition, already believe in Jesus whether they say so or not?
Interesting twist, perhaps?
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
But on clear reading of John, there are lots of other helpful hints. Like this one from John 3:
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
Now this one is talking about the person rather than the method of salvation.
<snip>
I would find it helpful if the universalists would give verses which suggest the opposite of this rather than taking us on mystery tours around the possible alternative meanings of seemingly obvious scripts.
I would at the very first take issue with "clear reading of John" and "seemingly obvious scripts."
That being said, expand your first passage to the following:
quote:
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
Jesus is talking to Nicodemus, who is a Pharisee. Go here to see the full text. Pharisees believed they were saved by the righteousness they'd amassed, that by being good people and subscribing fully to the Law, they were living within the fold of God and were thus in one sense saved.
Some would like a verse that would say otherwise, as you ask for Evo? What about verse 17 directly before the one you quoted? God sent his Son to save the world through him. Jesus stresses to Nicodemus that he should begin to accept this new teaching as hard as it will be to swallow. For if you do not believe in grace, you will not live in it, and you will not experience its effects in the now.
Where in this passage is Jesus saying that those who "do not believe" will spend eternity in Hell?
Our problem is not just misinterpreting passages--it's linking up passages that do not belong together.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
[QB] quote:
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
Some would like a verse that would say otherwise, as you ask for Evo? What about verse 17 directly before the one you quoted?
And you can read that to say that everyone will be saved regardless of their acknowledgement of Jesus can you?
quote:
God sent his Son to save the world through him.
That's right, that's what I've been saying - to save through Jesus - what's your point.
quote:
Jesus stresses to Nicodemus that he should begin to accept this new teaching as hard as it will be to swallow. For if you do not believe in grace, you will not live in it, and you will not experience its effects in the now.
Where in this passage is Jesus saying that those who "do not believe" will spend eternity in Hell?
The very next verse tells us that those who do not believe in Jesus (and elsewhere numerous times) stand condemned already. I don't want to play another round of "oh well, what does this actually mean" thank you very much. As I said, it is as clear as crystal.
Love,
Evo1
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
I don't want to play another round of "oh well, what does this actually mean" thank you very much. As I said, it is as clear as crystal.
Then unfortunately this discussion is pretty much finished. Don't see much of a point of any discussion at all, with that attitude.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
To anyone who would still like to discuss this issue:
Point 1 - Jesus is the only WT&L.
Point 2 - WT&L can only be accessed by doing/saying/praying/believing x.
Point 3 - X is supported by scriptures a, b and c.
It's a fallacy to argue that these points are all based upon each other. Because Jesus claims to be the only WT&L does not say anything about HOW to get to Jesus, as Mousethief and Teufelchen pointed out before.
So before we start introducing other Scriptures, we have to be ready to realize that the traditional understanding of those passages may not be exactly correct, since our usual interpreters were operating under the assumptions that prove certain points already.
In the John 3 passage above, why couldn't condemnation be referring to earthly condemnation rather than eternal condemnation? I'm not saying it definitely does, but it's sad to see people so easily dismiss a valid suggestion.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Littlelady
Shipmate
# 9616
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Jesus is the gatekeeper
I like this image. I haven't heard it before, but it is a good one imo.
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'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe
Posts: 3737 | From: home of the best Rugby League team in the universe | Registered: Jun 2005
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
"Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son."
I would find it helpful if the universalists would give verses which suggest the opposite of this rather than taking us on mystery tours around the possible alternative meanings of seemingly obvious scripts.
Maybe we should take a short detour to make some useful distinctions between types of universalism. This blog post might help.
In short, meanings of 'universalist' include:
* Everyone is saved by Jesus regardless of their personal faith (Strong Christocentric Universalism)
* Everyone will believe in Jesus and thus be saved through him (Weak Christocentric Universalism)
* Everyone will be saved regardless of Jesus because of God's love (Pluralistic Universalism)
Note that a Hindu or Muslim is/will be saved under all of these.
Carry on.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Littlelady:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Jesus is the gatekeeper
I like this image. I haven't heard it before, but it is a good one imo.
What do gatekeepers do? As a metaphor it is a bit unclear to me, because I don't know any gatekeepers.
Do they keep the gate clean and tidy? Or are they more like bouncers?
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
I'm not a universalist, then, because I don't believe we can say with assurance that everyone will be saved. There are plenty of texts to suggest not. However, I am something of a pluralist, if that's the word, since I believe that one can be saved by following God's will, without being identifiably Christian.
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
I'm not a universalist, then, because I don't believe we can say with assurance that everyone will be saved. There are plenty of texts to suggest not. However, I am something of a pluralist, if that's the word, since I believe that one can be saved by following God's will, without being identifiably Christian.
We need a lexicon! Maybe you are a Works-Based Pluralist? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by m.t_tomb:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I agree with Teufelchen and Mousethief.
God is in charge of the salvation business -- the "who" and the "how."
That sounds a bit like 'Calvinism' to me. I'm sure that Mousethief will distance himself from that faster than... well, quite quickly.
I don't even need to post any more to defend my position or say what I agree or disagree with; m.t_tomb will do it for me. Leaving me free to make sarcastic one-liners. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Littlelady:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Jesus is the gatekeeper
I like this image. I haven't heard it before, but it is a good one imo.
Jesus also said he was the door.
In the middle eastern context, the sheep were placed at night in a walled pen. There was no door, it was just a gap in the fence/wall. At night the shepherd was sit/lie in that gap so that anyone (or any sheep) that wanted to enter the sheepfold would have to actually and literally step over the shepherd to get in.
In other words, to get into heaven you have to consciously and deliberately encounter Jesus who is the door to heaven.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
"Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son."
I would find it helpful if the universalists would give verses which suggest the opposite of this rather than taking us on mystery tours around the possible alternative meanings of seemingly obvious scripts.
Maybe we should take a short detour to make some useful distinctions between types of universalism. This blog post might help.
In short, meanings of 'universalist' include:
* Everyone is saved by Jesus regardless of their personal faith (Strong Christocentric Universalism)
* Everyone will believe in Jesus and thus be saved through him (Weak Christocentric Universalism)
* Everyone will be saved regardless of Jesus because of God's love (Pluralistic Universalism)
Note that a Hindu or Muslim is/will be saved under all of these.
Carry on.
And according to the witness of Jesus himself, the Acts of the Apostles, the Pauline and pastoral epistles and the book of revelation, none of these is actually true.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
And according to the witness of Jesus himself, the Acts of the Apostles, the Pauline and pastoral epistles and the book of revelation, none of these is actually true.
Hear Hear
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Littlelady:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Jesus is the gatekeeper
I like this image. I haven't heard it before, but it is a good one imo.
Jesus also said he was the door.
In the middle eastern context, the sheep were placed at night in a walled pen. There was no door, it was just a gap in the fence/wall. At night the shepherd was sit/lie in that gap so that anyone (or any sheep) that wanted to enter the sheepfold would have to actually and literally step over the shepherd to get in.
In other words, to get into heaven you have to consciously and deliberately encounter Jesus who is the door to heaven.
Do you accept all the logical implications of that?
Anyone who dies before having the mental furniture to comprehend this concept --> Hell
Anyone too mentally disabled to be able to comprehend this concept --> Hell
Anyone who doesn't get to find out about this door to heaven --> Hell
Anyone who would love to use this door, but cannot summon up the faith to make that step --> Hell
Isn't heaven going to be rather empty?
I might add that I'm going to find heaven particularly empty by this reckoning. Hardly anyone I know or care about is a Christian - just Mrs Backslider, not the Backslideret, by Mudfrog's definition, and a few friends
Very quiet.
[ 15. November 2005, 11:51: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In other words, to get into heaven you have to consciously and deliberately encounter Jesus who is the door to heaven.
quote:
Do you accept all the logical implications of that?
Anyone who dies before having the mental furniture to comprehend this concept --> Hell
Anyone too mentally disabled to be able to comprehend this concept --> Hell
Anyone who doesn't get to find out about this door to heaven --> Hell
Anyone who would love to use this door, but cannot summon up the faith to make that step --> Hell
Isn't heaven going to be rather empty?
I might add that I'm going to find heaven particularly empty by this reckoning. Hardly anyone I know or care about is a Christian - just Mrs Backslider, not the Backslideret, by Mudfrog's definition, and a few friends
Very quiet. [/QB]
How do you know all of this Karl? I wouldn't dare speculate who would or would not accept Jesus in the final reckoning. And as for this idea about being too disabled to accept him, I think you are being rather condascending. Was it Helen Keller, the deaf/blind/mute who, on finaly being taught to communicate said, "I always knew he was there, I just didn't know his name"
Rather than get into the business of grading what you see as disabilities, let's think of the time Jesus called out to Lazarus. How disabled was he? He was dead! But when Jesus called, Lazarus came.
You see, what is disability to you is just a different person to God - they all can hear him - though sometimes they don't. In my experience, it is the most physically able that tend to be spiritually disabled.
Love,
Evo1
[ 15. November 2005, 12:01: Message edited by: Evo1 ]
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
In what way can babies consciously and deliberately encounter Jesus as the door to heaven? They struggle to consciously and deliberately do anything for the first six months.
I think if we're going to interpret Mudfrog's formula generously enough to allow for that, then it loses all meaning.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In what way can babies consciously and deliberately encounter Jesus as the door to heaven? They struggle to consciously and deliberately do anything for the first six months.
We are blessed in that it is communication directly between the individual and Jesus, no need for you or anyone else to be a witness to the conversation.
Why do I need to go on, I don't know, but I will. Tests have shown that new born babies recognise there mother's voice from the womb. How much more likely is their spirit to recognise the Spirit of our Lord?
Again, I find it fairly arrogant to insist that this must first pass your approval to count as a real communication.
Love,
Evo1
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I'm not asking to be party to it. I'm asking what possible meaning Mudfrog's "deliberate and conscious" can have here.
MF, as I understand it, has said you have to make a specific, conscious and deliberate decision to go through the door labelled Jesus. I am saying that that concept doesn't have much meaning for people in these categories. Consequently, by MF's definition, these people are all hellbound.
I am perfectly able to accept the concept of God communicating with babies, dead people, people with no hearing or sight etc. etc. What I am pointing out here is that MF's "conscious and deliberate" formula seems to me to imply that one has to say "Ah. Yes. This Jesus person. I've thought about it and I've decided to go along with it"
If MF does mean that, then the people I listed are doomed.
If MF doesn't mean that, I would welcome his clarification.
Either way, I don't see much value in another Karl LB/Evo1 talking past each other match. Especially since you don't seem able to do so without a thinly veiled personal insult in your final paragraph of your post.
[ 15. November 2005, 12:24: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
MF - what of the Sodomians?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Either way, I don't see much value in another Karl LB/Evo1 talking past each other match.
We are finally agreed on something.
quote:
Especially since you don't seem able to do so without a thinly veiled personal insult in your final paragraph of your post.
I've been here long enough to handle this one: It was your insistance that I found arrogant, not you personally - that goes without saying.
Love,
Evo1
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
In response to the OP, it is highly unlikely that Jesus, as in the historical pre-Easter Jesus, ever said 'I am the way, the truth and the life'. It seems curious, to put it mildly, that the synoptic evangelists, or the apostolic preaching tradition as presented in Acts, or Paul in his letters, saw fit to mention an explicit claim to the divine Name and to salvific uniqueness on the part of Jesus.
Now, I am not denying the importance, or scriptural status, of John's gospel, or of this verse in particular. But we do need to be aware that this text is already theology (as are all the gospels in different ways), we need to read it as such and we shouldn't get tied up worrying 'why did Jesus say that'.
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insert amusing sig. here
Posts: 8705 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
evo0 to evo1 (I'm evonull too, if any one declares themselves to be evo0), when is, was or shall be the 'final reckoning' for the Sodomians?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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