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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Bad taste
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
OK, in the Circus we have a sweepstake on the Pope's death. And inevitably there's the usual division amongst Shipmates between those who say this sort of thing is wrong and in bad taste, and others who think it's fine.
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW on the Circus thread:
It's really easy, Coot: don't click on the thread. It's not as if half the world isn't wondering every time they turn on the TV or radio or look at Google news, "Is he dead yet?"
Yes, but it doesn't mean that everyone's making a game of it (although some people obviously are, if some of the websites on the internet are anything to go by). I know this argument has come up more than once before and there's been mutual incomprehension on both sides. I haven't joined in the speculation because my point of view is that the Pope is an old man who is seriously unwell, to the point of it actually killing him, and more to be pitied than joked about. Yes, we all say things like, "I don't think he'll last the weekend" (and I don't think he will), but there is, as often, a fine dividing line between saying that and going on to make a joke of it.
So I have some questions.
Would it make a difference if he wasn't the Pope, just an elderly Polish man called Karol Wojtyla whom nobody had ever heard of - is it that you see it as a legitimate poke at a public figure? Would you be happy to have a sweepstake for your closest friend or relative?
We didn't have a sweepstake for Miss Molly when she died - at least, it wasn't on these boards if there was one. I don't think we had the Circus then, but if a similar situation occurs, would you feel comfortable about having one on another shipmate there?
I know some people joke about death as their way of dealing with it. If you were terminally ill, would you be fine with the idea of a sweepstake on your impending death? Would you want to join in, make jokes about it and so on?
If you're quite comfortable with the idea of sweepstakes, what, for you, would you consider to be "in bad taste" generally?
I'm just genuinely curious about how people perceive the whole idea of "bad taste" and what their personal definitions are. I hope we can discuss this without it getting Hellish on either side.
[ 06. May 2005, 01:14: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I would not be interested in a sweepstake on the death of the Pope. I could bring myself to take a sort of sporting attitude to the election of his successor - on the basis that I know as little about the eligible cardinals as I do about the runners in the 2:30 at Kempton Park.
But even then, it would probably be in my head. I think I actually dislike a whole way of social interaction, which is quite common in work or communal life. I don't do sweepstakes or quizzes or Friday after work at the pub, or Christmas lunches or even coffee rotas.
The basis of the dislike is, I suppose, around a certain 'unfeeling' aspect which is typical. They are not areas for genuine expression of feeling, or sincerity, or any kind of opening up. Rather they are usually around some sort of humour - which is, of course, a way of managing tension and negativity and hostility and fear and dislike etc. (Whereas my preferred way of managing hostility is by hating someone).
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Vikki Pollard
Shipmate
# 5548
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Posted
I think you're right Ariel. I looked at that thread briefly, clicked away and then went back and posted as a response to the media overkill, mainly. (I've already got into trouble on another thread for saying that I think the media response itself is in bad taste and threatens a dying old man's dignity, but hey, that's what I believe). I also hold other views which might distress RCs and I have no intention of posting them at this time. That would be unforgiveably bad taste and hurtful of me.
FWIF I think Miss Molly would have enjoyed the idea of a sweepstake but I agree it would have been in shockingly bad taste. That's why she would have enjoyed it. But those of us who knew her wouldn't have felt like posting, I don't think.
I suggest in mitigation for the Popping Papists that people on the thread are not, in their minds, dealing with someone real. The whole thing has a cartoon element at the moment and yet we are all being encouraged by the Meeja™ to emote as though it was of vital importance to us. Maybe that's what's going on?
[ 02. April 2005, 08:25: Message edited by: Vikki Pollard ]
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"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)
Posts: 5695 | From: The Far Side | Registered: Feb 2004
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
Well, we weren't taking odds on Terri Schiavo, or were we (I may have missed it).
Maybe this is in bad taste, but I'm grateful for the Pope's timing because it is giving us respite from the siren-screaming of the media about TS. The pitch was about to pop one of my eardrums.
FF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Vikki Pollard
Shipmate
# 5548
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Posted
What happens if the Pope's funeral is the same day as Charles and Camilla's low-key private wedding?? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
They really haven't had much luck, have they... ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)
Posts: 5695 | From: The Far Side | Registered: Feb 2004
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
At least His Holiness didn't die on Good Friday. Upstaging Charles and Camilla is one thing, but the Vicar of Christ upstaging Jesus would have been in very questionable taste.
FF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
I told my wife about the circus thread. She said it was disgusting and in bad taste. I didn't tell her I'd posted. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I know some people joke about death as their way of dealing with it. If you were terminally ill, would you be fine with the idea of a sweepstake on your impending death? Would you want to join in, make jokes about it and so on?
I would SO be in on the joke. I'd even try to arrange it so that if there were some sort of pool, the person I liked most would win. What's the point of having problems if you can't laugh at them?
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
Certainly the Pope has been in countless Dead Pools. Still, I'm of a mind to not make specific wagers, etc., on his actual passing.
[ 02. April 2005, 14:35: Message edited by: The Riv ]
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
I guess that's how I feel. The Death Pool is a bit more nonpersonal, kind of a "let's see if we can pre-guess history" concept. Now that we know someone is really dying, and it's someone very special to many people and their faith, I just can't get really rah-rah about it. I don't have any strong feelings about the etiquette of death and honestly think too many people do. I think we place too much emphasis on it, myself. But I do hope the Pope's passing will be filled with comfort and peace. I'm sure he deserves it.
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I know some people joke about death as their way of dealing with it. If you were terminally ill, would you be fine with the idea of a sweepstake on your impending death? Would you want to join in, make jokes about it and so on?
I would SO be in on the joke. I'd even try to arrange it so that if there were some sort of pool, the person I liked most would win. What's the point of having problems if you can't laugh at them?
Me too.
Yes, the thread in the Circus is in bad taste. That's why some of us find it amusing. I don't expect everyone to be amused by the things that amuse me, but I do expect them to allow me my amusements. I wouldn't make jokes about the Pope's impending death around anyone whom I wasn't sure shared my sense of humor, and I think it would be very insensitive to make such jokes around someone who feels close to the Pope as their spiritual father and who would be offended (though I'll bet there are people who both feel close to him and who would not be at all offended). I posted in response to Coot the way I did because he clicked on a thread whose title was pretty clear and then (I presume) read through the posts--our tasteless humor wasn't forced on him at the water cooler, he went out of his way to be exposed to it.
What people find funny varies enormously. There are people who can't get enough of the movie "Dumb and Dumber," which I find a complete waste of time and energy--but I don't lecture people who enjoy that sort of movie about what they ought to be watching. I find Andrew Dice Clay's humor tasteless and offensive and stupid, but I don't go up to people and tell them they should be ashamed of themselves for enjoying it.
As to joking about someone's death ... I have a friend who was recently diagnosed with an incurable cancer. The doctor gives him 3-5 years to live. He is 41, married, and has an 8-month-old son. A few weeks ago he told me that in response to the diagnosis, he was reading up, doing research, and then pulled a fat hardback book out of his backpack and tossed it to me. The title: Heaven. I laughed and asked if it was a travel guide, and he said no, he's looking into purchasing real estate. I said, "You're a sick, sick man," and he said, "Yes, that's what my doctor tells me."
It's absolutely heartbreaking that this man will not live long enough to raise his son to adulthood, that he will leave his wife a widow, that his mother will bury her only child. None of those things will stop him, me or his other friends and family from laughing at sick and tasteless jokes about his illness and eventual death.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
A little gallows humor never hurt anyone, but as far as being in good taste?
I remember riding down in a crowded elevator once, and when the doors opened at the third floor, there were two men waiting there with a body bag.
"It's OK, we can wait for the next one" they said.
I was the only person who was about to pee my pants laughing. The vision of them trying to sandwich themselves in amongst us, and then the implication that they were not in a hurry, just busted me up. It was like something out of Python.
It was a frosty ride from there to the garage.
No. Gallows humor is never tasteful, but sometimes it's unavoidable.
FF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
"It's OK, we can wait for the next one" they said.
That's a classic, FF! Thanks for sharing! I would have been in stitches, too! ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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--Formerly: Gort--
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
-George Bernard Shaw
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I personally think the pope and celebrity death pool threads are a bad idea--worse than in bad taste. I think they're mean.
It's totally different if the dying person is the one starting the humor, or friends who are close enough to know it would be ok.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
I don't find the sweepstakes in Circus any more evidence of Bad Taste than people who weep and make public displays of grief for the Pope or any other celebrity who is actually a stranger IRL.
*shrug*
People are wired differently, I guess. I've already told my family's laughing in the morgue story more than once, so I'll spare the old-timers here. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
This brings up the interesting question of "What is Bad Taste?" and who gets to define it. Miss Manners? The courts? Your mother? Apparently it's like pornography. Hard to define but we knows it when we sees it.
"Bad Taste" is whatever I don't find humorous, attractive, or respectful. After all, my worldview is the measure of all things.
Personally I find anyone who buys furniture from Rooms To Go or isn't an Episcopalian guilty of Criminal Bad Taste, but that's just me. But I'm right.
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
Who was it that said, "All good humour is based on the misfortunes of others."?
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--Formerly: Gort--
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
I believe it was the German playwright and author, Herr Schadenfreude.
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
Well I'm glad you've raised this. I believe it reflects a barbaric and degenerate culture which, as a past-time, places bets on when someone is going to die.
The only time I could understand it or accept it (and then because it is a matter of personal freedom), is if it is at the invitation of the dying person, as Erin mentions. Even so, it strikes me as macabre and anarchic. In that instance it is friends having a final laugh together and done with affection - but that can't be the case of the participants on the Circus thread. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Death is a holy time and the ultimate 'rite of passage' - large nos. of Xtians recognise this sacramentally (hence anointing, last rites, viaticum) and some Xtians believe also, the body is holy after death.
It doesn't matter that it is the Pope (though it is doubly rude and provocative given that the high esteem he is held in by a great deal of Shipmates is well known) - I was similarly unimpressed and made it known when the Ship floated the 'Celebrity Death pool' - I haven't checked if that is still running.
I used strong words to describe making a game out of someone's death, and this is why:
Consider John Donne, explaining the interconnectedness of humans and the loss to each of us on the death of one of us:
quote:
Devotions upon Emergent Occasions, Meditation XVII in the public domain:
The church is Catholic, universal, so are all her actions; all that she does belongs to all. When she baptizes a child, that action concerns me; for that child is thereby connected to that body which is my head too, and ingrafted into that body whereof I am a member. And when she buries a man, that action concerns me: all mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated; God employs several translators; some pieces are translated by age, some by sickness, some by war, some by justice; but God’s hand is in every translation, and his hand shall bind up all our scattered leaves again for that library where every book shall lie open to one another.
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If we understand aright the dignity of this bell that tolls for our evening prayer, we would be glad to make it ours by rising early, in that application, that it might be ours as well as his [my note: the dying person], whose indeed it is.
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Who casts not up his eye to the sun when it rises? but who takes off his eye from a comet when that breaks out? Who bends not his ear to any bell which upon any occasion rings? but who can remove it from that bell which is passing a piece of himself out of this world?
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend’s or of thine own were: any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee.
It is an occasion that bespeaks dignity - now for Erin, making a joke out of her death and running a sweepstake may be a way to give it dignity. I'm guessing that's a minority view. In order to give dignity to an action or occasion, we have to behave in a dignified way. Betting on someone's death, is (I hope still, in relation to public mores), not dignified.
I will be diminished by the death of the Pope, because he is a member of the Body that I also am a member of (and he is being removed from the earthly part of my life). If I mentioned in the prayer thread that a member of my family was dying, would any of you publically run a sweepstake on when they would die?
If you justify the act because you wouldn't mind if it was done to you, extrapolate further than yourself. Pick one of your cherished relatives that you will or have already grieved over at their death - would you run a sweepstake on it? Well, the Pope is someone's cherished relative, in reality and spiritually. Even if you don't feel or accept Donne's notion of interconnectedness or diminishment (and it's not like universal brother/sisterhood is an esoteric Xtian notion): if you wouldn't run a sweepstake on your own relative, why would you do it to someone else's?
Where is the fun in this activity, and why is it fun, when in other circumstances it would not be? That it is a public figure should make no difference, I think.
I view this as a sort of hardness and failure to see the humanity of a public figure. Not new of course… the soldiers gambled for Jesus clothes at the foot of the cross.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
This brings up the interesting question of "What is Bad Taste?" and who gets to define it.
Quite. Reading some of the responses to this thread reminded me of some British comedians who have a certain following, yet are considered so offensive that their shows can't be broadcast on television. Someone in that case made a moral judgement on their material. Were they right to forbid the showing of (for example) a programme with a lot of racist humour? From this we could diverge into a general argument about censorship (if so please start another thread) but I'd like to stick to the question of what people find offensive.
quote:
"Bad Taste" is whatever I don't find humorous, attractive, or respectful. After all, my worldview is the measure of all things.
I don't know that I'd agree with that as a definition. Fashions change from age to age and who decides whether hoop earrings, aerosol cream, or B & Q furniture are Bad Taste? All these things have their place and are perfectly acceptable to many people.
A sense of humour is an individual thing and people differ and should be allowed to differ. However I do think that there can be cause for concern if that humour is either overtly aggressive (as in for example malicious practical jokes) or causes distress to a significant number of people (or even one if in a personal setting). That is what I would consider Bad Taste.
And yes, I know there's always going to be someone who's upset by something, but it seems to me that if a significant number of people find a particular attitude or action distasteful (and I'm speaking generally here), then I think questions do need to be asked about whether it's beneficial for that society as a whole to have it continue or flourish.
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
I've prayed for the Pope (although I'm not RC and disagree with much of what he's said). I'll mourn his death, as he was a great example of what being a Christian should be. I also have picked a time on the Circus thread. Does that somehow cancel out my other sentiments?
Sieg
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Coot:
If I mentioned in the prayer thread that a member of my family was dying, would any of you publically run a sweepstake on when they would die?
No.
quote:
Pick one of your cherished relatives that you will or have already grieved over at their death - would you run a sweepstake on it?
I might. It would depend on the circumstances. If one of my parents were dying a lingering death, I could see myself saying to my brothers, "We each pick a date and time, and loser has to be the one who deals with the pastor of their church" (their church not being one any of us feels at home with).
quote:
Where is the fun in this activity, and why is it fun, when in other circumstances it would not be? That it is a public figure should make no difference, I think.
You think. I don't. Jokes are generally ruined when they're explained, but since you're not going to think it's funny no matter what, I'll attempt an explanation.
Running a sweepstakes on when the pope will die is funny to me because it makes fun of the question that is implied in so many recent conversations, in the media coverage of the pope's final days and hours, and in our consumption of that coverage: "Is he dead yet?"
quote:
I view this as a sort of hardness and failure to see the humanity of a public figure. Not new of course… the soldiers gambled for Jesus clothes at the foot of the cross.
You may not find such humor compatible with regard for humanity, but I do. I find such humor in fact to be very human. You wax poetic about dignity and holiness surrounding death, but death is a lot of things. It may be painful, messy, horrifying, saddening, and yes, some things about it may be funny.
What bothers me the most about what you're saying, Coot, is that you want to stop people from dealing with death in a certain way and make us deal with it your way. You deal with it your way, I'll deal with it my way. No one's making you read the Circus thread about the pope's death.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
[ETA:cross-posted with a gazillion people!]
But we're talking about Bad Taste, not humor.
(Excuse me a moment while I run up to re-read the OP...)
quote:
from the OP:
....there's the usual division amongst Shipmates between those who say this sort of thing is wrong and in bad taste, and others who think it's fine.
I think it's important not to confuse
Bad Taste with disrespectful, wrong, or inappropriate behavior.
Bad Taste is an arbitrary social convention at best, and at worst a mere elevation of personal preference and opinion to some unjustified Rule applicable to others rather than just to oneself. (As Sine so aptly demonstrated for us.)
Real life: I've been singing at funerals, roughly three per month, for the past ten or so years. That's 300 funer
als, most of them a deceased body and a family that I didn't know from Adam. I've seen plenty of Bad Taste both from the families and from those of us "backstage". What is important is how the Bad Taste is handled in public. I can joke with the organist and the priest about the tacky and sentimental piece of crap song the family chose, but I will also sing it with total sincerity when the time comes, because I know it means something special to them.
Bad Taste was choosing a crap song. Bad Taste was joking about it. Major social embarrassment would be if the family discovered we joked about. A true offense, a Wrong, however, would only be if I did not treat the song with the dignity and respect the family expected during the actual funeral.
As far as the Pope, I doubt he or those closest to him are reading the Circus on Ship-of-fools, so the only people being offended are strangers who are taking offense on his behalf without actually knowing him. And for them, the "if you don't like it, don't read the thread" rule seems more than sufficient.
[ 02. April 2005, 18:43: Message edited by: jlg ]
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
Where is the fun in this activity, and why is it fun, when in other circumstances it would not be? That it is a public figure should make no difference, I think.
It obviously is fun for a number of shipmates. But as best I can tell they are wrong because you don't feel that way.
quote:
I view this as a sort of hardness and failure to see the humanity of a public figure. Not new of course… the soldiers gambled for Jesus clothes at the foot of the cross.
The man has been obviously and indeed ostentatiously dying in public for a number of years now. It's not like the Popemobile suddenly backed over him out of the blue. He is not only a public figure but also has made the process of his death a public occasion for reasons of his own.
Had he chosen to retire to a comfy secluded villa several years ago I doubt you'd be getting Circus threads on him. I don't remember any for Ronald Reagan.
Besides, I personally am capable of holding more than a single emotion toward the same set of circumstances. I feel sorrow, respect, and yes, giggles, all at the same time for both the Pope's death and lots of other things in life as well.
In any case, I respect your grief at the death of your close personal friend, the Pope. I was very upset when my close personal friend, Princess Diana died. (I wanted to type "Princess Di died" but it didn't look right.)
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
But we're talking about Bad Taste, not humor.
True, but for me part of the humor depends on it being in bad taste, the way the impact of swearing depends on certain words being considered vulgar.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Setting aside the humor in it all, how is saying "I think he's going to kick it on Monday at 3 o'clock" disrespectful?
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
And whoever had 2137 Saturday, April 2 won.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
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Vikki Pollard
Shipmate
# 5548
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Posted
In my part of the world, we laugh about death. We enjoy funerals. We cry, we tell stories and we drink a bit and we laugh some more. That's how it's always been.
We are not diminished because people have gone on before us - we share their dignity and rejoice in their passing. We are enriched by having known them. Since my father died so well, I have known no fear of death.
Erin, thanks for your post. Brilliant. Coot, sorry you are offended. But I doubt Erin is in the minority. She certainly wouldn't be in Yorkshire.
[ 02. April 2005, 19:44: Message edited by: Vikki Pollard ]
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"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)
Posts: 5695 | From: The Far Side | Registered: Feb 2004
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Zwingli
Shipmate
# 4438
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Posted
I guess people in Yorkshire have to have something to laugh about.
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Coot:
Pick one of your cherished relatives that you will or have already grieved over at their death - would you run a sweepstake on it?
Uh, actually... Yeah. In addition to the Croak pool, we've got Knocked Up, Hitched, Divorced, and Indicted pools, seperated further by generation. The odds are recalculated every year at the family reunion, buy-in for each category is five dollars.
One man's poor taste is another woman's cherished family tradition.
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
I think my family would enjoy your family, Spiffy!
ETA: though my family never actually organizes family reunions, much less sweepstakes.
[ 03. April 2005, 01:32: Message edited by: jlg ]
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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fisher
Shipmate
# 9080
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
As far as the Pope, I doubt he or those closest to him are reading the Circus on Ship-of-fools...
Oh, I dunno. I'm sure Cardinal Ratzinger's sitting there with a notebook and pencil half the time ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"Down, down, presumptuous human reason!" But somehow they found out I was not a real bishop at all G. K. Chesterton
Posts: 1327 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2005
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Vikki Pollard
Shipmate
# 5548
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zwingli:
I guess people in Yorkshire have to have something to laugh about.
Well we're kept pretty busy grinning cos we don't have to live in London, too, of course... ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)
Posts: 5695 | From: The Far Side | Registered: Feb 2004
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
As generally the touchiest Catholic on these boards, I would have to say that I didn't think it was in bad taste. In fact it seemed to display an authentically Catholic attitude and I am so glad that so many of you are real closet Romans despite your often lamentable lapses of doctrine.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Vikki Pollard
Shipmate
# 5548
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
As generally the touchiest Catholic on these boards
Is that a bit like being The Only Gay In The Village?
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"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)
Posts: 5695 | From: The Far Side | Registered: Feb 2004
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Advocatus Diaboli
Ship's cannon
# 5172
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Posted
Vikki - surely that'd be The Most Touched Catholic?
I'll get my coat.
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Shipmate formerly known as lazystudent
The only way of catching a train, I have discovered, is to miss the train before. (G.K.C.)
Posts: 576 | From: Katholieke Universiteit Leuven | Registered: Nov 2003
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Setting aside the humor in it all, how is saying "I think he's going to kick it on Monday at 3 o'clock" disrespectful?
Mmm ... I know what you mean, but to me it sounds a bit like arranging a business appointment, with some degree of impersonality and a lack of compassion for what is after all one of the most important events in someone's life. It's the sort of let's-pin-it-down to-the-precise-minute, slot-it-into-an-agenda type of thing that looks, frankly, calculating and insensitive. Different people see things differently, that's just my point of view, and other people will (and obviously do) see it as nothing at all.
And from there I find myself wondering which is better: to be honest about how you feel, join a sweepstake and opt for a 4pm slot with a possible financial prize, thereby upsetting some people to whom it means something, or go along with expressions of condolence and sincerity to be socially acceptable when in fact you couldn't care a hoot either way. (I'm thinking of the tributes that have come in from politicians who probably had them prepared months in advance and stuffed in a file just in case.) Is it good taste to pretend to feel sympathy?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
It probably wouldn't have happened if we weren't getting hourly reports on which organ has failed now and how he's really going to die this time, we were just fooling before. For those of us who don't look at needless suffering as some great witness -- after all, God invented narcotics for a reason -- I'm not exactly sure what we were supposed to do with the information. The Vatican's news releases turned it all into a morbid spectacle and pretty much encouraged everyone to begin the betting.
I hate the politicians' frowning with sincerity, though. It makes my skin crawl.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Those of us who didn't enter the sweepstake probably still found themselves wondering when he would actually die - I know I did.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
What bothers me the most about what you're saying, Coot, is that you want to stop people from dealing with death in a certain way and make us deal with it your way. You deal with it your way, I'll deal with it my way. No one's making you read the Circus thread about the pope's death.
I've been thinking about this, it's not that I want to stop people dealing with death in a certain way and make them deal with it 'my' way - it's that there still exist societal standards regarding what is a respectful response to death which are greater than the individual responses which you and Erin offer and more widely held - and which I expect people to respect even if they don't personally adhere to them.
Standards change, granted. Perhaps our society's solemn treatment of death (not precluding the joyful hope of resurrection) is one that will change. I think that will be a loss.
It's a similar notion to 'public decency'. eg. types of nudity, public displays of sexual intimacy. There is still a standard of what is 'allowed' and what is 'not allowed'. Usually backed up by legislation. But even when there isn't, it's courteous of people to give their expressions of individualism a back seat for the comfort of others.
Respect for the dead is one of the basic civilities, fergawdsake!!!!
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Sine:
In any case, I respect your grief at the death of your close personal friend, the Pope. I was very upset when my close personal friend, Princess Diana died. (I wanted to type "Princess Di died" but it didn't look right.)
I know you're just being a bitch, ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif) but the point is not that I am personally close to the Pope. (Certainly he has been more significant to me than Princess Di, and I am more deeply moved by his death than hers - though I don't think we should receive the news of any death in a blaise way). The point is, that their experiences will be my experience also. You do as you would like to be done to, and until Miss Manners indicates that the usual etiquette surrounding death is to take a sweepstake on the moment of departure, I'll continue to view non-standard responses not instigated by the dying person, with distaste.
Look what happened to Don Juan.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
I am right with Cooty here. The "shuffle 'em off in a box", "let's crack open the champers!" attitude toward death which trivialises grief and despoils the dignity of the reposed is something I find grossly offensive.
If you are used to (as in my tradition) giving the reposed a farewell kiss and honouring the body as well the soul then you will appreciate just how unacceptable sweepstakes and generally taking the p*** really is.
I don't expect (some) to agree with me but it would be a shame for these not to have some appreciation of just how such things affect the rest of us.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
In contrast, I think that the really sick and offensive thing was the wall-to-wall coverage of the man's last hours.
Yes, I know he was very important to a lot of people and I can appreciate that people cared a lot about him. But I really did not need to hear constant news reports that amounted to well he is still here but he might not be by the next news broadcast .
He was old, he was sick. Why could they not have honoured him by quietly allowing the man to die?
Compared to that, the circus thread pails into insignificance. It was less of 'when is he going to die?' and more of 'when are we going to have some other news?'.
C
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
Standards change, granted. Perhaps our society's solemn treatment of death (not precluding the joyful hope of resurrection) is one that will change. I think that will be a loss.
Respect for the dead is one of the basic civilities, fergawdsake!!!!
The thing is, I don't equate solemnity with respect.
When I was waiting to see whether my mother would die a complete brain death (better for organ donation) before we pulled the plug, my friends and I made any number of bad jokes (including running Monty Python's 'Bring Out Your Dead' almost constantly and idly speculating on which ring of hell you go to if you steal a priest's car while he's administering last rites). That is, quite simply, how I deal.
I understand that it's now how everybody deals. As a general rule of thumb, I don't ever try to joke at a hospital or funeral unless the sick person or a close family member does so first.
The Pope chose to die a very public death. Given the number of people who seem to want to pretend that death doesn't exist or shouldn't be talked about, I really respect his choice. However, I suspect he was intelligent enough to know that in dying a public death, people were going to deal with it as they deal with things.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Pânts*
Ship's underwear
# 4487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cheesy*:
... But I really did not need to hear constant news reports that amounted to well he is still here but he might not be by the next news broadcast .
He was old, he was sick. Why could they not have honoured him by quietly allowing the man to die?
C
Precisely.
He'd had a nice long life. Everyone liked him. Then he got ill, and was probably suffering lots. He's just a person. And yes, I'd find it quite amusing if there was a sweepstake on me if I was terminally ill.
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I'm not here any more. Dial 999 to get me. (No. Please don't really. Bit you could PM me on my new number cos I never get PMs!)
Posts: 8380 | From: The Stables | Registered: May 2003
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
it's not that I want to stop people dealing with death in a certain way and make them deal with it 'my' way - it's that there still exist societal standards regarding what is a respectful response to death which are greater than the individual responses which you and Erin offer and more widely held - and which I expect people to respect even if they don't personally adhere to them.
Standards change, granted. Perhaps our society's solemn treatment of death (not precluding the joyful hope of resurrection) is one that will change. I think that will be a loss.
I don't know what you folks down in Australia do, but American society doesn't deal well with death at all, and I don't see why any of us should be bound by "standards" which serve us so badly.
quote:
it's courteous of people to give their expressions of individualism a back seat for the comfort of others.
I repeat, you went out of your way to click on that thread and read the posts. We weren't being discourteous to anyone, because no one (aside from the hosts) is forced to read what they don't want to read. It was in fact rather discourteous of you to intrude your po-faced remark upon what was just a bit of fun.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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