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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Bad taste
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I'm not sure how much the various anecdotes along the lines of 'when somebody dies in our family we deck the house with bunting and hire a brass band' actually relate to the OP. I took the point of that to be that however we as individuals respond to death in our own orbit (which will vary with cultural background, circumstances, temperament etc), ought there to be a level of public decorum?
I agree with the various posters who pointed out the media-driven mood of 'more, we need more'. Anyone who's ever been anywhere near that sleepless hydra which is 24-hour, rolling, global news broadcasting knows that 'Yes, Pope dying' followed by 'Yup. Still dying' is not going to sate the beast.
I'm inclined to think that is what has really destroyed any possibility of an agreed standard of public reticence on any topic. Everywhere and always, human lives are being turned into fodder for the TV screens. Sometimes with consent ('reality' shows), more often not. Everything can ultimately be reduced to a gameshow, a format, a soap.
So, it's all the fault of the Evil Murdoch. (Ever notice how close that name is to Moloch? Coincidence? I think not.)
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pânts*
Ship's underwear
# 4487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by Pânts:
Everyone liked him.
Really? Everyone? I can think of some who might disagree.
Ok, that was more one of those glib generalised statements that people make when someone dies. I know nothing about the guy (nor am I really interested!!)
quote:
Originally posted by Coot:
So I don't think it is a joke or cause for scorn - I didn't/don't think (or haven't realised if they are) that the people participating on the thread are doing it to take the piss.
Blimey. I thought the whole thread was a pisstake. I didn't realise that people were taking it seriously.
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I'm not here any more. Dial 999 to get me. (No. Please don't really. Bit you could PM me on my new number cos I never get PMs!)
Posts: 8380 | From: The Stables | Registered: May 2003
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
What I think is bad taste is the hypocritical sycophancy of the Western media. They keep using the words 'monumental' and 'highly significant' to describe the life and influence of the 'pope of popes' etc. blah, blah, blah...
But next week they'll be writing Christianity off once again as repressive, irrelevant, and in terminal decline.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Pants:
Blimey. I thought the whole thread was a pisstake. I didn't realise that people were taking it seriously.
Well this is the thing. I can take the MSB very seriously, while being amused at the surrounding trappings. Very anglo-caff style (not that I am one) - outside the Mass, to be self-deprecating about the trappings; over-emphasise them; camp them up; treat them as more important- the creature rather than the Creator (you mean they aren't); yet still conduct the Mass with deadly serious sincerity and solemnity.
I think (?) Ruth is getting at something similar to this regarding death. Or maybe not. Maybe not also for Erin and saysay. Sorry, bit obtuse, me at the moment. Not sure if they are coming from a position that solemnity is not an issue/can be dispensed with or that levity does not preclude it and it occurs concomittantly or concurrently but distinctly.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
When some of you have finished interpeting my own thoughts and feelings for me let me repeat that I expect Christians to take death, mourning and hope very seriously and not to trivialise that. How that gets translated into not enjoying wakes or being up my arse about anything God only knows.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
When some of you have finished interpeting my own thoughts and feelings for me let me repeat that I expect Christians to take death, mourning and hope very seriously and not to trivialise that. How that gets translated into not enjoying wakes or being up my arse about anything God only knows.
When some of YOU have finished deciding that you're the moral arbiter of the world let me repeat that I don't actually care what you expect Christians to do.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Doohickie
Shipmate
# 7817
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Posted
I haven't read the whole thread; forgive me if I cover the same ground.
The original post makes several excellent points regarding the death of the pope and the inappropriateness of jokes regarding the event. I have tremendous respect for the John Paul II and think he will be remembered as one of the greatest world leaders of the late 20th century.
Nevertheless, I guess I totally disagree with you in that I find the jokes about the pope's death hilarious. I've been reflecting on this since I first saw this thread, and some thoughts have come to me as to why I can see your points, yet still enjoy the humor:
1. Humor, the best humor, is irreverent. Gallows humor, battlefield humor, humor about death are among the best.
2. We've been through a vigil- a period of waiting for death to relieve John Paul II from the concerns of this world. His suffering is over now. The humor is merely a normal reaction to the end of this tense time.
3. Carol Wojtyla was reported to have a pretty good sense of humor. As someone who has endured all that he did in his life (not only his late-life ailments, but his resistance to the Nazis and Communists), a sense of humor would be a valuable asset.
4. In his last days, John Paul II was at peace. He said repeatedly as his health deteriorated that he was in God's hands. I'm sure he believed it. I do.
5. Even as we speak, Carol Wojtyla is in the bosom of the Lord. No words we say here on earth can hurt him now. This is a time to rejoice; his suffering is over and the servant has been called home.
As Pope John Paul II himself said with his last words, "Amen!"
Be at peace, Carol Wojtyla!
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I am the Bishop Formerly Known As Paul_H.
Click here to help a young widow and her children from my church
Posts: 336 | From: Fort Worth, TX, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
How can I be expected to take death seriously when by His resurrection, my beloved master Jesus taught me to laugh in its face?
He made a mockery of death. I follow Him.
Cheers
FF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
my beloved master Jesus taught me to laugh in its face?
How did he teach you that?
He wept when Lazarus died.
Resurrection is not immunity from death. The Risen Christ still bears the marks of his wounds. Our sins are forgiven us, but they still offend. And still have real consequences in this world if not the next, causing real pain and real distress. Death and Hell are defeated, but still, to us, terrible.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
Hi Ken,
They may be terrible to you, but not to me. You're entitled to believe in death and hell. I don't and won't. Not since my Master lived and died and resurrected expressly so that I might be free from their depressing influence.
Jesus promised me eternal life. He showed me through His resurrection and through Lazarus that death has no power over life if I believe in Him. And I do.
I'll use His words from John 11 25&26:
"I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, even though he may die, will live and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
I think death is a bad joke, and deserves to be laughed into nothingness. If you want to think otherwise, be my guest. I would never huff at you because I thought your perceptions offended MY beliefs about death.
FF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Oh for fuck's sake Gregory, knock off that "Dear Erin" crap. I'm not your dear anything, and posting on a message board is NOT writing a letter.
As to your "so?" remark... well, I'm somehow not surprised. I mean, after all, what would a thread be without you demanding that other people respect your sensibilities while simultaneously talking to us like we're your children or -- worse yet -- your particular congregation. You're not any sort of spiritual leader around here, so you can drop your lectures any old time.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
would never huff at you because I thought your perceptions offended MY beliefs about death.
But you just did.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
Sorry Ken,
I have no control over the tone you "hear" me posting in. If you hear a huff, it's more a reflection of your mood than mine.
Try reading again in a different tone.
FF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
You are still doing it. You are writing in a patronising-sounding way.
But I'm not in a huff - I was just pointing out that your opinions, which you are as entitled to as anyone, are not the teachings of Jesus as we have them in the Gospels.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
Sorry Ken,
I am writing in a direct way. You are ascribing the "tone" in your head.
You are entitled to your view and if you don't think I have gotten the lesson of the gospel, then that's entirely OK with me. I don't see how this can be viewed as patronising. If your experience and life are enhanced by a fear of death and hell, then I can't argue with it. All I can do is say "sorry, not my cup of tea."
There's a logical fallacy that goes "everyone believes X is true, therefore it must be true." You're definitely in the majority, Ken. Whether or not you're ultimately right can only be told in time.
I'm perfectly willing to be proven wrong, but my money is on God and Jesus, not death and hell.
Cheers
FF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
No Erin. I was just returning the compliment in a sort of infinite regression. It was a joke. You know, why should I care that you don't what I care ... etc. etc. You don't have to care what I care about but perhaps sometimes it's useful simply to receive what the other person has to say.
BTW, I doubt whether I shall be able to shake "Dear ...." treat texting and emailing in no different way than I treat letters. You couldn't have thought I meant anything else shirley?! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
Not sure if they are coming from a position that solemnity is not an issue/can be dispensed with or that levity does not preclude it and it occurs concomittantly or concurrently but distinctly.
I guess I’m coming from the position that levity doesn’t preclude solemnity.
Death is solemn. Death is going to remain solemn no matter what I do or don’t do. Since the nature of death doesn’t depend on me, I think of my job as needing to deal with people’s reactions and their needs.
I tend to think that respecting a person means treating the person as they want to be treated, as long as doing so doesn’t cause me to violate the dictates of my own conscience. So when we visited my best friend’s father (who was a very traditional and intellectual man made uncomfortable by displays of emotion) in the hospital, we acted as he wanted us to act in public and saved the laughter and tears until we got home.
On the other hand, my mother was raised by people who thought that any display of emotion besides a calm radiant joy was proof that you weren’t a Good Christian. One of the things she told me she admired about me was my ability to laugh until I cry and cry until I laugh. Had I suddenly become all prim and stiff-upper-lipped proper, she would have read me the riot act (if she could have).
Maybe it’s a cultural difference. Although you wouldn’t know it from the news the past few weeks, death is rarely mentioned in public (apart from politicians nattering on about our culture of death). To paraphrase Aries, at some point the prohibition against speaking about sex was replaced with a prohibition against speaking about death. When death does get mentioned, it’s usually accompanied by a maudlin sentimentality, as if the only appropriate way to feel is heartbroken.
Death is more complicated than that, as are people’s reactions to it. I have no idea what relationship people posting on the circus thread have to the Pope, but I don’t think it’s my job to determine their internal states or their intentions.
And Spiffy, I’ll be there with bells on…
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
Thinking about this, I remembered reading about a South American tribe that actually adds a little bit of the deceased into a meal in a respectful gesture, I think there was also a 'making them part of you' sense as well. So obviously culture determined. I am not actually horrified by that, whereas outlined responses of my fellow Westerners cause me consternation, so there you go.
But, leaving the 'appropriate response to death' aspect, I wanted to get back to Firenze's excellent post.
quote:
Firenze:
I'm not sure how much the various anecdotes along the lines of 'when somebody dies in our family we deck the house with bunting and hire a brass band' actually relate to the OP. I took the point of that to be that however we as individuals respond to death in our own orbit (which will vary with cultural background, circumstances, temperament etc), ought there to be a level of public decorum?
I agree with the various posters who pointed out the media-driven mood of 'more, we need more'. Anyone who's ever been anywhere near that sleepless hydra which is 24-hour, rolling, global news broadcasting knows that 'Yes, Pope dying' followed by 'Yup. Still dying' is not going to sate the beast.
I'm inclined to think that is what has really destroyed any possibility of an agreed standard of public reticence on any topic. Everywhere and always, human lives are being turned into fodder for the TV screens. Sometimes with consent ('reality' shows), more often not. Everything can ultimately be reduced to a gameshow, a format, a soap.
So, it's all the fault of the Evil Murdoch. (Ever notice how close that name is to Moloch? Coincidence? I think not.)
Specifically: "I took the point of that to be that however we as individuals respond to death in our own orbit (which will vary with cultural background, circumstances, temperament etc), ought there to be a level of public decorum?", which I was also trying to (cof) address.
Obviously, I think there ought to be a level of public decorum, and that there has been in former times, and that it is not lost, and that a public thread entitled: 'The Popping Pope Sweepstake' does not meet it. (Ya know, this provocative headline is not really something I can ignore, or choose not to read).
Media saturation doesn't really affect me as I don't watch TV but I think if there has been a loss due to human lives becoming media fodder, it is not an irreversible situation or a fait accompli. A few ppl mentioned on the Terri Schiavo thread that they admired the way Michael Schiavo wasn't joining the media circus. That's all it would take imo, a continuing trickle of ppl showing the world a different way - if ppl's attitudes can be molded one way, they can be molded another way...
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
I suppose you could blame it on Dave Allen, the Irish comic who died recently:
I'd see the Pope in a little chair being wheeled around, and I'd laugh. It reminds me of Allen's "Pope on the throne" sketches, and the "Pope goes waterskiing" bits.
And, today, I see the Pope's body being brought to St. Peter's, I see them lift him a bit to be seen by the throng and I think, "Gosh, what if he slipped down?"
Am I the only one who thought that? I don't think so.
I laugh at the memory of a Dave Allen sketch, and of it possibly being brought to life.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
(Ya know, this provocative headline is not really something I can ignore, or choose not to read).
I am making an effort these days to talk only from my own experience because really, that's all I've got. So I can't say what's true or not true for someone else. I am also trying to come to grips with the fact that I only have control over me, and not a lot of it at that. I certainly have no control over other people.
Therefore I am finding trying to tell other people what they should or shouldn't do, or how they should or shouldn't feel is a particularly pointless use of my time.
On the other hand I do find I have choices about what I do or how I feel.
There was a post the other day that I allowed myself to be really offended by. I wrote at least three scathing and irate responses. Then I says to self "Do you really want to get into this or do you just want to go on about your business?" I decided that I had the power to chose to ignore it. I am so glad I did. Had I not I wouldn't have changed the other poster's opinion in the slightest and I would have gotten myself all in a twit.
There seems to be a wonderful freedom and relaxation in laying down the burden of feeling I have to mind other people's business for them. And also in not giving the control of my emotions into the hands of other people by allowing myself to be offended by what they choose to do or choose to think.
I know this sounds kinda smarmy, but I thought I'd throw it out there for what it's worth.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
And, today, I see the Pope's body being brought to St. Peter's, I see them lift him a bit to be seen by the throng and I think, "Gosh, what if he slipped down?"
Am I the only one who thought that? I don't think so.
I've never heard of Dave Allen before, but I wondered the exact same thing when I saw the footage of them lifting the head of the bier so the crowds could get a look.
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
Obviously, I think there ought to be a level of public decorum, and that there has been in former times, and that it is not lost, and that a public thread entitled: 'The Popping Pope Sweepstake' does not meet it.
I don't think these requirements of public decorum associated with the pope's death ought to be applied to the Ship. I think that it would be inappropriate for the Swiss guards to be making faces at the crowds lining up to pay their respects, but the Ship's boards are a different public forum, and here I think it's altogether appropriate to make jokes. I still think you're trying to make everyone adhere to standards that not everyone recognizes as important or useful, imposing what feels right to you.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
I was about to ask if anybody could make obnoxious, childish, asinine personal attacks on this holy thread or if it required a special dispensation. This before sharing my own particular fart in church.
Then I read this: quote:
There seems to be a wonderful freedom and relaxation in laying down the burden of feeling I have to mind other people's business for them. And also in not giving the control of my emotions into the hands of other people by allowing myself to be offended by what they choose to do or choose to think.
Now I've a mind to have Sine beatified upon his death. I promise to find a large and ridiculously funny hat for him and a lovely string quartet for the occasion.
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--Formerly: Gort--
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Oh for fuck's sake Gregory, knock off that "Dear Erin" crap. I'm not your dear anything, and posting on a message board is NOT writing a letter.
As to your "so?" remark... well, I'm somehow not surprised. I mean, after all, what would a thread be without you demanding that other people respect your sensibilities while simultaneously talking to us like we're your children or -- worse yet -- your particular congregation. You're not any sort of spiritual leader around here, so you can drop your lectures any old time.
Dear Erin and Fr Gregory
Please feel free to pull each other's pigtails and stamp on each other's toes in Hell.
Thanks ever so much.
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
I was about to ask if anybody could make obnoxious, childish, asinine personal attacks on this holy thread or if it required a special dispensation. This before sharing my own particular fart in church.
I don't give out special dispensations, Gort. I'm not in charge of beatifications either. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 05. April 2005, 06:41: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I wondered the exact same thing when I saw the footage of them lifting the head of the bier so the crowds could get a look.
I'm guessing there's a big strip of Velcro™ on the back of the cope. And we don't even want to know how they're keeping the miter on.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
Obviously, I think there ought to be a level of public decorum, and that there has been in former times, and that it is not lost...
I could apply this sentiment to an awful lot of things that people don't want to see in public. Doesn't follow that it's right or even healthy. It is, in fact, very repressive.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
...I guess I’m coming from the position that levity doesn’t preclude solemnity.
Death is solemn. Death is going to remain solemn no matter what I do or don’t do. ...
Some people define "solemn" as (essentially) "pompous" and "serious" as "important". In this schema, death is "serious", but doesn't need to be "solemn".
I was at a memorial service once that had a clown. "Serious", also funny, but not at all "solemn".
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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Ann
Curious
# 94
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I wondered the exact same thing when I saw the footage of them lifting the head of the bier so the crowds could get a look.
I'm guessing there's a big strip of Velcro™ on the back of the cope. And we don't even want to know how they're keeping the miter on.
I suppose they could have used that silver hammer and a few silver nails.
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Ann
Posts: 3271 | From: IO 91 PI | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
There's a logical fallacy that goes "everyone believes X is true, therefore it must be true."
I'm sure there is, but no-one here is doing it.
quote:
You're definitely in the majority, Ken.
I am? When did the majority of people become Christians? Never mind Calvinists with universalist tinges?
quote:
I'm perfectly willing to be proven wrong, but my money is on God and Jesus, not death and hell.
So is mine, but I prefer to base it on what he gives us in the Gospels and the Bible, not a mixture of my private fantasies and New Age fluffy-bunny waffle.
And I certainly would not make your claim that everyone who suffers from sickness or who dies only suffers because they have fallen short of your elevated state of perfection. The world is real, not some Gnostic stage-show put on by a mendacious godlet for the benefit of a super-spiritual elite of ex-hippy Pelagians. And Jesus quite clearly tells us in the Gospels that people do not die or suffer only because of they are greater sinners than anyone else.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
And I certainly would not make your claim that everyone who suffers from sickness or who dies only suffers because they have fallen short of your elevated state of perfection. The world is real, not some Gnostic stage-show put on by a mendacious godlet for the benefit of a super-spiritual elite of ex-hippy Pelagians. And Jesus quite clearly tells us in the Gospels that people do not die or suffer only because of they are greater sinners than anyone else.
Thanks, ken. I'm sure AFF is a very nice person, but I'm not sure she realizes how unbelievably offensive it is to suggest that people (such as my mother) who suffered from cancer, or people such as the millions who die from it were just not elevated and enlightened enough to overcome death.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
All this talk of taste reminds me of when two weeks after one of those limitlessly tragic things to which life on earth seems to tend - friend's young husband died, leaving her with small children - the crematorium sent her a:
Customer Satisfaction Survey.
We both thought this was pretty funny. If you don't laugh, you'd be crying all the time.
[ 05. April 2005, 16:16: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
Hi Laura,
Thank you for the benefit of the doubt. I really am a nice person. I wish you would pop by the CoF board so we could chat realtime, the board doesn't always give the most accurate view of a person.
I do most humbly submit, though, that you are the one taking offense. I fail to see how I give it. You imply that I think people are stupid when they suffer and die. That's not it at all, and I would hardly be a Christian for thinking so, let alone saying so but if that's how you insist on interpreting my POV then I can't prevent you. I'm just sorry you see it that way, because I like you.
People have their own experiences for reasons of their own which are between them and God. Not my place to judge whether they are "enlightened". In fact, I doubt you and I even have the same definition of the word. For me, it means something very literal, as in "Made lighter, less burdened, more levity, less weight". NOT "more bright" as in "less dull" in the intellectual or spiritual attainment sense, which you seem to think I am implying.
That's why I always made it a pun "en-LIGHT-ened".
The rewards of heaven don't go to the smartest or most spiritual, at least I'm smart enough to figure that out. They go to those who are most prepared to receive them (have their lamp wicks trimmed). For me this means it is a concrete, physical state of be-ing, not an intellecual or spiritual abstraction. I may be a bloody fool for seeing life the way I do, but all I'm trying to communicate is that it really works for me.
Shalom
FF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
don't want to get involved in this discussion at all, but i do want to say, vikki, that snopes.com verified the belgian thing about bush and the chimps as true. make of it what you will.
ok, i will add one other thing. i notice several people have said that their families do run pools on when someone's going to die and etc. but i haven't seen anyone saying that they wouldn't mind if total strangers ran a pool on when their loved ones would die, or etc.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
AFF: I'm not the only one -- 'twas ken who initially brought up the implication of what you are saying. And the implication is clear. Your clarification has only deepened that impression. If only these sad losers had followed your enlightened lead and decided they would not die, or if only they were as you say, able as you are (and they are not) to receive God's gifts, then they would still be alive. I think that's making a judgment on another's ability to accept God's gifts. What we're saying is, your version of Christianity is wholly unwarranted by scripture (except in the extreme out-of-context way you use it) and so it seems a bit much for you not only to flog it here, but also to suggest that people who die are somehow less able than you to accept what God has to offer.
And thanks for your kind offer of chat in the Cafe, but alas as I am not immortal, time permits only one web-based time commitment, and this is the one I've chosen.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Personally, I prefer reality dosed liberally with grace to spaced-out close-your-eyes-and-pretend-it-isn't-happening claptrap any day of the week.
Suggesting that it 'works for you' is surely the same as suggesting you are on a higher spiritual plain to all of the rest of us poor mortals, and that all we need to do to be holy is follow your example.
Bollocks.
Pain is real, death is real, grief is real. Nothing is achieved by pretending that it isn't there any more than a dead mouse disappears from under the carpet by constantly jumping on the lump.
C
[spelling]
[ 05. April 2005, 17:57: Message edited by: Cheesy* ]
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arse
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
Hi Cheesy,
That's funny, you using the term "mere mortals". Does part of you suspect I might have actually attained eternal life? I doubt it, but the choice of expression was kinda Freudian.
Are you saying I am not supposed to not take Christ at His word? Are you saying I should substitute His promise to me with the popular "accepted" perception of life, even though He went to the cross and rose from the grave and so proved that perception is flawed and that He is the King of Reality?
Should I be singing "Hallelujah He is risen, Death is swallowed in victory" but thinking "Bullpuckey, death is more powerful than Christ any old day because my loved one died. Christ can't do a thing about death."?
Should I be saying "Jesus promised me eternal life" but thinking "Unfortunately I have to be dead in order to obtain it."?
It's a logically untenable position for me. I hope you can see that. If the Gospel is true, then the accepted perception of reality and it are not measuring up.
I think that's why there's "doctrine", because the Gospel is in fact so powerfully and simply True in every sense of the word, that it HAS to be "spun" in order to fit people's experiences, rather than people should allow their life experiences to teach them the truth of the Gospel.
If you want different results, you have to do things differently. So I tried it the other way around, and decided to take the Gospel literally. And it works for me.
Shalom
FF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Have we uncovered a new heresy?
There is a little bit of the Barefoot Doctor, a large dollop of Mary Baker Eddy, a streak of Gnosticism a mile wide, a superstructure of New Age misperceptions of Buddhism, a small flavour of neo-Paganism, and an underlying rigid Pelagianism.
Strange mixture.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
In the gospels (or at least the ones I have), the Christ weeps with those who weep, lifts up those of little faith, helps the rejected, heals the sick, walks and talks with the forgotten.
Nowhere does he suggest living in the unreal world you seem to inhabit where 'bad stuff' is just an illusion. Quite the opposite in fact.
I suggest to you that you are running from unpleasant realities and glossing over people's obvious pain with wooly mouthed platitudes that neither help or comfort them. Which is emphatically not what Christ did.
C
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arse
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
ok, i will add one other thing. i notice several people have said that their families do run pools on when someone's going to die and etc. but i haven't seen anyone saying that they wouldn't mind if total strangers ran a pool on when their loved ones would die, or etc.
If my loved one chose to be a public figure (which is the only way that I can imagine total strangers knowing or caring that they were going to die - and yes, I am willfully ignoring certain shameless recent events), then I wouldn't care.
Being a public figure has certain advantages and certain disadvantages. They knew that when they accepted the role. How strangers react to them is really none of my concern.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
Thank you Ken!
I accept the label of heretic with humblest gratitude. It's a true honor.
I have to laugh though, I never would have thought that on a Christian board, one could be honored with the title for saying "I tried the whole Gospel and I found it to be true".
I just can't win, it seems! LOL
I love you guys! You are the best! Thanks for everything you are and do, and for allowing me to share. It really is a stretch and you're awfully good sports. Exemplary Christians, in fact. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Much love and many hugs. ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
FF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
I have to laugh though, I never would have thought that on a Christian board, one could be honored with the title for saying "I tried the whole Gospel and I found it to be true".
1. ITTWACW is the oldest and crappiest replies in the history of old and crap replies.
2. Suggesting that you have 'tried the whole gospel and found it to be true' is a hilarious claim to fame. I might just write that down.
Returning to the OP, I was wrong. The really offensive thing is not the wall-to-wall pope-tv, but this kind of attitude that suggests people's genuine grief is a sign of not 'living the whole gospel'.
C
[one day that Lord will bless me with the gift of spelling and good english]
[ 05. April 2005, 19:20: Message edited by: Cheesy* ]
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arse
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
The world is real, not some Gnostic stage-show put on by a mendacious godlet for the benefit of a super-spiritual elite of ex-hippy Pelagians. And Jesus quite clearly tells us in the Gospels that people do not die or suffer only because of they are greater sinners than anyone else.
How very ironic! One completely unprovable belief system casting aspersions on another!..and on a debate board! This last little dust-up is as fine an example of "bad taste" as can be found under the several OPs on the subject recently.
I'd find it rewarding to see more of an effort to find common ground with belief systems here than the petty, unending attempts to kick the crutches out from under each other.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
First, I have to admit that I didn't find the Pope terribly interesting when he was alive, and I've only begun to find him interesting lately as a consequence of inescapable media coverage.
The appropriate response to this seemed to be participation in a Pope Death Sweetstake, which I alas didn't win.
I don't know the Pope, or anyone beloved to him so I didn't realise that this was in poor taste.
But then I remembered that death instantly confirms (mainly upon public figures) a great deal of callow concern from people who never knew the dead person and probably didn't care much about them when they were alive, but care a great deal about an unmissable opportunity to tell other people who ALSO didn't know the dead famous person that they are being horribly incorrect.
Which brings me back to this excellent question which received no answer:
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
This brings up the interesting question of "What is Bad Taste?" and who gets to define it.
I also have to wonder what the difference is between "Bad Taste" and "something I just don't like."
quote:
Coot said
I believe it reflects a barbaric and degenerate culture which, as a past-time, places bets on when someone is going to die.
Which reminds me that in George III's lifetime, and during a prolonged, painful, and degrading illness no less, his courtiers and even members of the Royal Family placed wagers on the likelihood of his recovery from madness and whether or not he would survive. And this in what used quaintly to be called the Age of Elegance.
quote:
ken, getting his Holy Scripture confused
How did he teach you that?
He wept when Lazarus died.
Resurrection is not immunity from death.
Whoops. Lazarus was revived, not Resurrected. Lazarus died again (kind of sucks for Lazarus, if you think about it). Our Lord was Resurrected, and did not, nor has, nor will die again.
quote:
posted by nicolemrw
i haven't seen anyone saying that they wouldn't mind if total strangers ran a pool on when their loved ones would die, or etc.
Put me on record for not minding if total strangers ran a sweepstake about a loved one's death. If they are strangers, why would I care what they do? And if someone I know is running a sweepstake, I want in on it.
Two last things. I thought the Blessed Sacrament Web Cam thread was a massive piss-take. And yes I wondered aloud whether the Pope would slide right off the red stretcher when they displayed him to the crowds (I wondered if he wasn't perhaps sewn on).
Apologies for length.
HT
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
quote:
ken, getting his Holy Scripture confused
How did he teach you that?
He wept when Lazarus died.
Resurrection is not immunity from death.
Whoops. Lazarus was revived, not Resurrected. Lazarus died again (kind of sucks for Lazarus, if you think about it). Our Lord was Resurrected, and did not, nor has, nor will die again.
I never said Lazarus was resurrected or living a deathless life - but that Jesus wept when he died. Illustration of real nature of stuff.
And Jesus doesn't need to die again & neither will we after the general resurrection.
We are promised resurrection, which may involve having to die first. Not immunity from that first death.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
ken:
Give it up. AFF is better than we are. You PROVED that you believe it yourself by using the phrase "mere mortals" to describe us. Besides, it's been so long since we had such a credible substitute for a very-long-departed old-boards denizen whose name began with a small "b" that it's kindof refreshing.
AFF: Good luck with the whole immortality thing!
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
How very ironic! One completely unprovable belief system casting aspersions on another!..
My thoughts exactly. I just didn't see much point in commenting, what with people being so sure their beliefs are right...
Bad taste seems somehow trivial in comparison.
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
I find it odd, that in a thread about Bad Taste we have once again moved into a discussion about immortality-through-the-power-of-positive-thinking. Back on track please or start a new thread on this tangent.
There are some overly personal comments being made in pursuit of this particular tangent, too. You know who you are.
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
This has been the best Hell thread for weeks.
Strange its in Purgatory.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
Purgatory is the new Hell.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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