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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: MW: Honorifics and Titles (was "I am The Incredibly Reverend Dr. Mark T. Punk")
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
Actually I'm not. But I am very curious about such titles in the Anglican and Catholic churches as well as in any other church bodies that use them.
In other words, what does it take to become "Reverend," "Very Reverend," "Most Reverend" and such? What is the significence of such titles?
I'm not knocking them (And I will refrain from doing so here, although I admit I find them amusing). But I am very curious about them.
Thank you.
[ 29. March 2004, 19:59: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
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The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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Elizabeth Anne
Altar Girl
# 3555
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Posted
"The Reverend" is for a priest. "The Very Reverend" is for the dean of a cathedral (among other things?). "The Right Reverend" is a bishop. "The Most Reverend" is for some sort of head bishop ie. The Most Reverend Frank T. Griswold, Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church USA, and The Most Reverend Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury.
Did I get all of this right?
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Born under a bad sign with a blue moon in my eyes...
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Incensed
Shipmate
# 2670
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Posted
That's about the length and breadth of it. Venerable is an archdeacon...
Posts: 241 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2002
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Sacristan
Shipmate
# 3548
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Posted
"The Rev'd" could also be for a deacon.
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More abomination, more abomination
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
Thinking of swithching, Mark? I think your theology would be pretty much in line with that of The Right Reverend Dr. James Monte Stanton, Bishop of Dallas, which I think includes Denton.
Greta
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LatinMan
Shipmate
# 1892
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Posted
In RC parlance (and please note this varies by country and language), a deacon is addressed:
The Reverend Mister N.
A priest is simply:
The Reverend N.
or:
Father N.
A bishop or archbishop is:
The Most Reverend N.
Abbots and certain Monsignori are:
The Right Reverend N.
Other Monsignori are:
The Very Reverend N.
Cardinals are:
His Eminence [first and middle names] Cardinal [surname]*
And the Pope is:
His Holiness Pope N.
Most Catholic clerics do not use the academic title "Doctor", which properly belongs to clerics holding the degrees Doctor of Divinity or Sacræ Theologiæ Doctor (Doctor of Sacred Theology).
*The modern practice of identifying Cardinals as Cardinal [first name, middle name] [surname] (e.g. Cardinal Joseph Doax) is execrable and boors identifying Cardinals in this manner should be soundly beaten.
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irreverentkit
Apostle's Amanuensis
# 4271
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Posted
Just don't call me "Mother"!
Sincerely,
The Rev. Katherine A. (Kit) Carlson
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Rowen
Shipmate
# 1194
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Posted
In the Uniting Church of Oz, both Ministers-of-the-Word and Deacons are addresed as the Rev. Name Name (John Doe or Jane Doe or whatever). No matter what you are and do... eg the National President of the Uniting Church- the Rev. Name Name. Such folk are trained and ordanined. A lay leader- who may choose to spend some time in a leadership role in a parish, may be called Pastor John Doe or similar. They may recieve some training but are not ordained.
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"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
US Protestant ministers are generally simply "Reverend", which is the title they gain on ordination.
But some churches will only call a minister "Pastor", believing that only God should be revered.
I think I've only heard "Rev. Dr." for a couple of people--Martin Luther King Jr. and Billy Graham. Personally, not being terribly used to titles, I find that cumbersome. So I'll usually say Rev. or Dr., but not both.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
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Posted
Basically the titles refer to how much you are revered, that is, how special and marvellous and wonderful and important you are:
Thus:
Johnny/Suzie: Children - not important at all.
John/Suzanne: Young Adults - only important inasmuch as they need to be tolerated until they turn into real people who can contribute to the building appeal.
Mr/Mrs Kafoops: Adult members, with cash in pockets - important, but primarily of value for their ability to warm seats
Verger: So important s/he gets to carry a stick.
The Reverend (revered one): Deacon or Priest - about as important as they come. Keepers of knowledge and and keys to the Parish Hall.
Very Reverend (very revered one): Dean - we say they are "very" revered in the same way we say children are "very" special, i.e to give them space to prance around and look cute before putting them to bed and getting on with the serious business.
Right Reverend (Like, really revered): Bishops - given this title to demonstrate the paradox of Christianity, that is, the one most derided and scorned is also the one who holds the code for the Diocesan bank account.
Most Reverend (you don't get any more revered than this!): Archbishops - title used as a reminder that it is our weakest and most spineless who are truly valued by God.
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We’ve got to act like a church that hasn’t already internalized the narrative of its own decline Ray Suarez
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irreverentkit:
Just don't call me "Mother"!
Sincerely,
The Rev. Katherine A. (Kit) Carlson
Just out of curiosity, why? Our associate rector is quite happy to be known as Mother Patricia.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Jugular ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Saint Osmund
Pontifex sariburiensis
# 2343
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by irreverentkit:
Just don't call me "Mother"!
Sincerely,
The Rev(d). Katherine A. (Kit) Carlson
Just out of curiosity, why? Our associate rector is quite happy to be known as Mother Patricia.
May I second the question?
This is certainly how I address female priests; it sounds most rude to greet a male priest as 'Father', and then a female priest as 'Anne'.
I'm usually of the view that it is more rude to address somebody in a way other than that requested, than it is to omit their title/correct form of address; but I would be most uncomfortable addressing a priest by her/his first name only, unless I knew said priest personally, and even then in formal situations I would feel it inappropriate.
AD x
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
MTP, if you were the 'Incredibly Reverend MTP', the 'incredibly reverend, of course, refers to the God you represent in whatever official status that has been given to you, not yourself.
While I find it very amusing to have these two words (Reverend Anselmina) in such close proximity - as I've said before my family still haven't stopped laughing - I remind myself of the above everytime I'm tempted to think it's actually meant to be a descriptor of who I am rather than whose I am in the grace of Christ.
Anyone know why Bishops are the Right Reverend? It kind of insinuates there must be some of the Wrong kind floating about. And usually when one is referring to someone as a 'right' something it's usually in the context of being, for example, 'a right royal pain in the backside' or 'a right old waste of space'. Maybe once upon a time it was meant ironically? 'Here's Bob, just been consecrated Bish of Barcestershire; a right reverend, he is!'
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
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Cusanus
Ship's Schoolmaster
# 692
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Anyone know why Bishops are the Right Reverend? It kind of insinuates there must be some of the Wrong kind floating about. And usually when one is referring to someone as a 'right' something it's usually in the context of being, for example, 'a right royal pain in the backside' or 'a right old waste of space'. Maybe once upon a time it was meant ironically? 'Here's Bob, just been consecrated Bish of Barcestershire; a right reverend, he is!'
'Right' in this context is an intensifying adverb modifying the following adjective, just like 'very'. It's now largely obsolete except for the uses you mention!
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"You are qualified," sa fotherington-tomas, "becos you can frankly never pass an exam and have 0 branes. Obviously you will be a skoolmaster - there is no other choice."
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
If you really want a mouthful of title, try
The Most Reverend and Right Honourable Doctor Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury.
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Saint Osmund
Pontifex sariburiensis
# 2343
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Posted
Ahem, Lord archbishop of Canterbury, not so?
xxx
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
Quite so, AD.
As well as "Primate of all England and Metropolitan".
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
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Dies Irae
Shipmate
# 2804
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Posted
I am possibly wrong but would not the prefix "His Grace" also be appropriate here?
My understanding was that Dukes and Archbishops enjoyed this courtesy.
Posts: 148 | From: London | Registered: May 2002
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
The title 'canon' is usually given to clergy (and sometimes laity) who are on the staff of a cathedral. To complicate matters the title can also be honorary. Thus, we have The Reverend Father Canon Barry E.B Swain, who is in fact rector of a church in a different diocese from that in which the title was conferred.
To confuse matters further, some retired bishops serve at the parochial level, so it would be possible to come across people who are functioning as parish priests but who have the the title 'Right Reverend'.
Greta
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
Also, a cathedral dean can sometimes be a 'Rt. Rev.', as will be the case starting this Tuesday in Hooker's Trick Land, when Bishop Chane becomes interim Dean of Washington National Cathedral.
Greta
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dies Irae:
I am possibly wrong but would not the prefix "His Grace" also be appropriate here?
You are not wrong, the archbish is, indeed, graceful. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
As well as becoming more reverend the further up the tree they climb, Roman Catholic priests also get more tassles on their coats of arms (there are several pages).
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
All very interesting, if confusing.
Anselmina, no, I did mean by my title that I am Incredibly Reverend. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Greta, your suggestion is well taken. I admire Bishop Stanton.
Wouldn't it be interesting if we did have Wrong Reverends? Maybe they could be Devil's Advocates or such. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I believe that in the American Orthodox world, "Very Reverend" refers to an archpriest.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
If you know the female priest very well (and she has a sense of humour) you can get away with calling her 'father'. Tongue firmly in cheek, of course
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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LatinMan
Shipmate
# 1892
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Posted
It is not unknown for RC abbesses to be addressed as Reverend Mother.
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* * * + * * *
_ _ _ [o]_ _ _
Posts: 603 | From: The Marches of the Archdiocese of Chicago | Registered: Nov 2001
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Raspberry Rabbit
Will preach for food
# 3080
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Posted
When I was an army chaplain I was 'Captain the Reverend XXX XXXXX. I thought at the time that I might stick around long enough and behave myself in both military and ecclesiastical worlds until some day I achieved the next step up which would have been
Major the Venerable.....
I suppose there must be a 'Lt Colonel the Right Reverend' somewhere. Our bishop ordinary to the Canadian Forces (who is an archbishop in the Canadian Church remains simply....
Captain the Most Reverend XXXXX XXXXXX
Captain the Reverend Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal, Quebec
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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
(((BLOG)))
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David
Complete Bastard
# 3
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Posted
Isn't the opposite of a Right Rev. a Sinister Rev?
Posts: 3815 | From: Redneck Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2001
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Saint Osmund
Pontifex sariburiensis
# 2343
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Posted
Well yes, quite, David. It's even funnier in light of your signature. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
AD x
Posts: 2965 | From: here | Registered: Feb 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Somehow, I'm put in mind of
"I am the very model of a modern Major General..."
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
A recent former Dean of Lincoln was The Very Reverend The Honourable Oliver Twistleton-Wickham-Fiennes, which had a bit of style.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
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anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LatinMan:
It is not unknown for RC abbesses to be addressed as Reverend Mother.
The same is for Anglican abbesses. Hence, John Betjeman's ![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) "Felixstowe, or Last of Her Order" : quote:
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In eighteen ninety-four when we were founded,
Counting our Reverend Mother we were six,
How full of hope we were and prayer-surrounded
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angelus Domini.:
This is certainly how I address female priests; it sounds most rude to greet a male priest as 'Father', and then a female priest as 'Anne'.
I'm usually of the view that it is more rude to address somebody in a way other than that requested, than it is to omit their title/correct form of address; but I would be most uncomfortable addressing a priest by her/his first name only, unless I knew said priest personally, and even then in formal situations I would feel it inappropriate.
Many parts of the church find the idea of calling a male priest "father" odd, and would never think of calling a woman priest "mother".
For years now just about all the Anglican churches I've been associated with have called their priests by their names - George or Dave or Barry or April or Christine.
The formal alternative to that has just been to say "Vicar" as in "More tea, Vicar?"
Bishops and Archdeacons get similar treatment.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Sacristan
Shipmate
# 3548
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Posted
I don't understand this practice of calling priests by their first names. We don't do it with our physicians, we don't do it with our lawyers or other professionals. Why does it seem necessary now to do it with clergy? Is it because of a sense of having to make them be "reg'lar folks just like us"? ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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More abomination, more abomination
Posts: 1008 | From: West of Gotham | Registered: Nov 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sacristan:
I don't understand this practice of calling priests by their first names. We don't do it with our physicians, we don't do it with our lawyers or other professionals. Why does it seem necessary now to do it with clergy? Is it because of a sense of having to make them be "reg'lar folks just like us"?
Since when was a priest a "professional" like a lawyer or doctor? A lawyer or doctor is someone you pay to do a job then they go away and you don't see them till next time you need the job done.
Your priest is also your pastor, someone you are in a day-to-day (or at least week-to-week) relationship with
The lawyer or the doctor, unless you know them personally, are in basically the same situation as the plumber or the plasterer you get in to fix something your house. The priest shoudl be more like one of the family.
You might see at doctro for 5 minutes every few months, if you make an appointment; in church you see the priest for an hour or so every week, and then some.
Also you are likely see more of the priest socially as well. Over the last few years I have spent far more time in conversation with our parish priest or the other ministers than I have with my doctor or lawyer. In fact I've spent more time with the bishop of the archdeacon than with any doctor.
Not that ANY of that has got to do with reasons for calling priests "father" or not - which here in the Chruch of England, as we know perfectly well, is merely a shibboleth of church politics. If you follow the innovations brought into the CofE by the Anglo-catholics in the 19th century you say "father"; if you don't, you don't.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Actually those who refer to people by Rev. Other are the ones who are being over familiar. It is highly familiar to call someone Smith, Jones or such, and all you have done is put an adjective in front of it. So if you object to being called Tall Smith, or Short Jones it is equally incorrect to refer to Rev. Other. Reverend is not a title implying vocation but an adjective that says the person addressed should treated with Reverenced. If you do not wish to use first names then you have to use Rev. Mr. Smith or Rev. Mrs. Jones or whatever title is appropriate. This sounds awkward so many use Rev. John Smith, Rev. Jane Jones etc.
Theologically it is of course very suspect in English Non-conformity.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
I've said it before. I'll say it again. All clergy should be required to have doctorates. Problem solved.
I was always told, in the Episcopal church anyway, that you never addressed a member of the clergy in conversation as "Reverend Smith". I stole the following from an Episcopal church website;
quote:
While we are on this, it is never correct to refer to any cleric as "Reverend." This word is an adjective and must always be preceded by the definite article. And it is never correct to address a priest directly as "Reverend Brown." The worst sin is to speak about a priest as "the reverend," as in "The reverend says I should double my pledge."
My brother, who really ought to know better, introduced his new priest to me as "Reverend So-and-So". I nearly died of shame.
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Not that ANY of that has got to do with reasons for calling priests "father" or not - which here in the Chruch of England, as we know perfectly well, is merely a shibboleth of church politics. If you follow the innovations brought into the CofE by the Anglo-catholics in the 19th century you say "father"; if you don't, you don't.
That'll be RESTORED to the CofE! Given that 'Father language' regarding the clergy of one sort or another has been in use for the better part of two thousand years in the Christian Church, I scarcely think it was an 'innovation' in the 19th century.
I do think that the use of 'father' has good pragmatic arguments to support it. All this reverend, most reverend etc. can sound very pompous and seems to have more to do with worldly status than pastoral role. However, first names can make some people uncomfortable, and can create a big ousider/ insider split - I turn up at a church for the first time, everyone is calling the priest 'Bob', but I've never met this man, what do I call him? 'Father', quite simply, works, it is not overly formal, has resonances of family and pastoral care, and puts insiders and outsiders in the same boat.
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insert amusing sig. here
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LatinMan:
*The modern practice of identifying Cardinals as Cardinal [first name, middle name] [surname] (e.g. Cardinal Joseph Doax) is execrable and boors identifying Cardinals in this manner should be soundly beaten.
From the Boston Globe:
Q. I have noticed that Boston's Roman Catholic archbishop is referred to in the Globe as Cardinal Bernard Law. Years ago it was Richard Cardinal Cushing or Francis Cardinal Spellman. When and why did the title change?
P.D., North Eastham
A. On May 26, 1985, the Globe announced it had discontinued the practice of placing the title cardinal after the given name, as in Humberto Cardinal Medeiros. The practice, which derives from the old British custom of referring to nobility with identifications such as "William, Duke of Norfolk," generally had fallen out of favor. The Globe' s new style places the title before the name, making it read Cardinal Bernard Law. Two major news organizations, the Associated Press and United Press International, also adopted the style. Globe religion writer James L. Franklin says the Vatican and the Archdiocese of Boston still use the old British style.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
While we're on the subject. Another quote from the same church's website (not that it's necessarily, uh, gospel just because it's on a website):
quote:
"Do Episcopal clergy call themselves 'Father'? I thought that was a Catholic thing. What term refers to a female Episcopal priest?"
Reply: The question of appropriate titles for Christian clergy has been a complicated one. Many Protestant denominations in this country used the title "Father" for some of their clergy before we Episcopalians did. For a time American Roman Catholics called their parish clergy "Mister." When Irish Roman Catholic priests, all of whom were called "Father," came to America in large numbers, Protestants dropped their practice like a hot potato. The Anglo-Catholic movement gradually brought "Father" back into common usage in the Episcopal Church.
The use of a first name for a female priest can be overly familiar. If a female priest is a vicar or a dean then title of Vicar or Dean works. If she has a Ph.D. then Doctor works. In the UK female priests who are rectors are often called Rector. Some prefer Pastor; others prefer to be addressed as Mother, and this makes some kind of sense if male priests are called Father, but I'm not sure if people over 40 should call anyone Father or Mother, except one's own parents. Your best bet is to ask the priest what she prefers. Deacons are addressed as Deacon Dorothy. (This reminds me of that horrid expression: "You can call me anything, but don't call me late for dinner.")
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I was always told, in the Episcopal church anyway, that you never addressed a member of the clergy in conversation as "Reverend Smith".
Of course. We say, or used to say "Vicar" or "Archdeacon" or even "Bishop" if we weren't using their names. It's all in Trollope
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
Everything I know about the Church of England I learned from Trollope. Unfortunately, some of it seems to be a bit out of date. Not the politics however.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Originall posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf quote:
That'll be RESTORED to the CofE! Given that 'Father language' regarding the clergy of one sort or another has been in use for the better part of two thousand years in the Christian Church, I scarcely think it was an 'innovation' in the 19th century.
Actually, D0D, much as I agree with your arguments for the practice (as long as women can be Mother), I doubt if you are correct. The pre-Reformation custom in England was to address priests as "Sir", as in Sir Christopher Trychay, the hero of Eamonn Duffy's book whose title I forget but a far from boring historical study of an English country priest and parish throughout the turmoil of the Reformation years. Was it the Chronicles of Morebath or something?
Roman Catholic priests likewise in England were 'Mr' until mass Irish immigration I understand. As at Ushaw College if not now certainly in the 1960s.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
I chose my words carefully Angloid!
I talked about 'father language' - I agree that there has never been universal use of 'father' as a term of address, although it WAS in use, particularly liturgically, in pre-Reformation times. The use is and was patchy. My point was only that it is misleading to think of it as a 19th c. innovation.
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Posts: 8705 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf:
it WAS in use, particularly liturgically, in pre-Reformation times.
Pre-Reformation, Schmeformation.
Did they use it in the early church? And what did the councils say about it? That's what we need to know.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
....On May 26, 1985, the Globe announced it had discontinued the practice of placing the title cardinal after the given name, .... Two major news organizations, the Associated Press and United Press International, also adopted the style.
Well, the Boston Globe, the Associated Press, and United Press International can just go to hell.
And while we're at it, sombody needs to point out the distinction between written honorifics and spoken titles used in introductions. You can call some priest to his or her face "Father" --or "Mother" if you're feeling advanced, but you would never address an envelope to them using those words. It is always "the Rev." or "the Rev'd." (if you're British). There's a lot of confusion on this thread about that, and it needs to stop because the posters should know better.
It is permissible to call a bishop "bishop" to his/her face and a cathedral dean (or an academic one, for that matter) "dean," but presbyters are properly called "Father" or--in the new dispensation--"Mother", but never "priest." And I agree, proper names work equally well for them, and the humility might just be salutary.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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