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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: MW: Honorifics and Titles (was "I am The Incredibly Reverend Dr. Mark T. Punk")
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf quote:
My point was only that it is misleading to think of it as a 19th c. innovation.
Well yes, your legally and vertically-challenged holiness. Bishops at least are addressed as Father in the BCP.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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LatinMan
Shipmate
# 1892
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Posted
quote:
angloid sez:
The pre-Reformation custom in England was to address priests as "Sir", as in Sir Christopher Trychay, the hero of Eamonn Duffy's book...
In Sigrid Undset's Kristen Lavransdatter, she explains that Norwegian priests in Medieval times were called "Sira", in direct imitation of contemporary English practice. (Undset cited English evangelization of Norway.)
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by angloid:
Well yes, your legally and vertically-challenged holiness.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf:
I scarcely think it was an 'innovation' in the 19th century.
I'm certainly no expert in English church history, but didn't they have riots in the churches over this sort of thing? I'm thinking the nineteenth century "people in the pews™" must have thought it was an innovation, and a "Roman" one at that.
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
The version instilled in me as an A-C youf was this : the initiative in calling slum priests 'father' (which is what Irish RCs were by then calling their priests) was from the people, it made the priest more 'one of us' than did 'Mister'. Whether this is true, or pious Catholic myth, or (most probably) a bit of both, I do not know.
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insert amusing sig. here
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irreverentkit
Apostle's Amanuensis
# 4271
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by irreverentkit:
Just don't call me "Mother"!
Sincerely,
The Rev. Katherine A. (Kit) Carlson
Just out of curiosity, why? Our associate rector is quite happy to be known as Mother Patricia.
I don't want to mother my parishioners. I am their priest, not their parent.
Actually when "Mother Kit" comes out, it is usually to scold an acolyte or argue with the air conditioning repairman. She's pretty scary. Most people want to see just plain ol' Kit, or Reverend Kit if you want to say something formal.
(Yes, yes, I know Reverend is an adjective, not a title. What I really want to be is Pastor, but it's not very Episcopal.)
I tell them only call me Mother if you want me to speak to you the same way I speak to my children.
And if you want me to clean that smudge off your face with some spit on my finger ... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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irreverentkit
Apostle's Amanuensis
# 4271
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Posted
p.s.
You could call me Ms. Carlson. (Longstanding low church tradition of calling male clergy Mr. so and so.)
Or, if you can call someone with a Ph.D. "doctor", why can't you call someone with an M.Div. "master"?
"The Reverend Master Katherine A. Carlson"
Now THERE'S a title!!!!
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
The woman who used to be our parish priest was one of the first women ordained to the priesthood in that diocese. She says that if she ever writes about her experiences, she's already figured out the title of her book: Even My Husband Calls Me "Father."
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Clergy of the Church of Iceland still receive Sera as their title, as in Sera Thor or Sera Jon, presumably flowing from the Norwegian tradition. Perhaps a shipmate more up to date with Icelandic practice can fill us in with the title used for women presturinn??
Is there not an old thread somewhere on nomenclature for women clergy??
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Surely, Archbishops are addressed as "Your Grace", your diocesan bishop "My Lord", other bishops "Bishop", deans and archdeacons "Mr. Dean/Archdeacon" (even if I do prefer the slightly incorrect Fr. Dean/Archdeacon), and everyone else is Father, unless they absolutely hate it.
Incidentally, it is permissible to use "The Revd. Fr." on an envelope if the priest is a member of an order such as SSC or OGS. (That's always what I've been led to believe anyway.)
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jugular:
Basically the titles refer to how much you are revered, that is, how special and marvellous and wonderful and important you are:
Thus:
Johnny/Suzie: Children - not important at all.
Thanks Jugular, for the best laugh of the day thus far. Our minister is the Reverend Dr, but she's the only one who uses the titles, and then only in official situations. The rest of us, children included, call her by her first name. Those of us who spend more time with her call her by a diminutive of that name.
I personally hate honorifics. And I dislike even more those who insist on them. But then, I call my doctor and lawyer by their first names too. The exception to this is that I always address older people as Mr, Mrs or Miss until they invite me to do otherwise. And I always check with people what they prefer to be called, since I personally hate being called Debbie instead of Deborah.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Arabella,I am with you on honorifics. I do not insists upon "dr"for myself since I am but a married bachelor (of medicine and surgery). At my main job (in an army barracks) I get "Ma'am" "Doc" (just perfect for a dwarf according to Sponsa Amabilis) or my baptismal name.
Small tangent-it is an odd tradition among British, Australian and Kiwi surgeons that they get "Mr" rather then "Dr" when addressed formally. As an intern, I offended one such character by suggesting that this was a hangover from the days when barbers did double-duty as surgeons.
Now that I am too old to worry about respecting my elders I address clerics by their given name, since I have not called anyone "Father" since my earthly father died many years back. Bishops, etc are easily avoided, not being on any of their invitation lists. Of the many female religious I know, none would expect the appellation of "Mother" or "Sister" these days, even (and especially) the octogenarians.
cheers,
m
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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irreverentkit
Apostle's Amanuensis
# 4271
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The woman who used to be our parish priest was one of the first women ordained to the priesthood in that diocese. She says that if she ever writes about her experiences, she's already figured out the title of her book: Even My Husband Calls Me "Father."
ROFL!!!!
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
This Episcopalian is so very happy that her Rector insists on being addressed as "David" and her Associate Rector as "Heather."
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
This Anglican is very happy that his parish priest will only answer to Father X or Rector.
Thurible
[ 02. July 2003, 11:14: Message edited by: Thurible ]
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
Small tangent-it is an odd tradition among British, Australian and Kiwi surgeons that they get "Mr" rather then "Dr" when addressed formally. As an intern, I offended one such character by suggesting that this was a hangover from the days when barbers did double-duty as surgeons.
I believe you're right - surgeons used to be chiefly concerned with amputations and so were often chosen for strength or skill with a saw rather than academic abilities. 'Proper' doctors looked down on surgeons as little better than butchers, and so refused to honour them with the title of 'Dr'. I am told that orthopaedic surgeons, who do most of the bone-crunching work now, are still considered to be a bit 'below' the rest of the surgical classes ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Of course, now medics sweat blood to get the title 'Dr', then sweat more blood to become a 'Mr' or 'Miss' again ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) . Another reason to refuse to call anyone 'Dr' unless they have a Doctorate rather than a medical degree ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2696 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
This Anglican goes through occasional bouts of referring to clergy in the way he calculates will most annoy the individuals concerned. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Multipara:
Actually in the UK it is more pompous than that. A fully qualified medical doctor who is referred to as 'Mr' is a consultant. That is a sucessful doctor in the speciality. Yes I know surgeons who are Mr but I also know medicine specialists who are Mr.
I have made the mistake of doing this and felt the wrath of the consultant.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Elephenor
Shipmate
# 4026
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irreverentkit:
Or, if you can call someone with a Ph.D. "doctor", why can't you call someone with an M.Div. "master"?
You can indeed, though it is customarily abbreviated "Mr" (or, presumably, "Ms" in your case).
At certain universities, there still exists a tradition that only M.A.'s have the title `Mr' painted up over their door. Undergraduates are just initials+surname.
Considerably less well known (indeed outright forgotten) is the archaic title "Ds" (pronounced "Dominus"?), for those possessed only of a Bachelor's degree. (see eg. this glossary)
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"Man is...a `eucharistic' animal." (Kallistos Ware)
Posts: 214 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie:
Actually in the UK it is more pompous than that. A fully qualified medical doctor who is referred to as 'Mr' is a consultant. That is a sucessful doctor in the speciality. Yes I know surgeons who are Mr but I also know medicine specialists who are Mr.
Of course if the surgeon gets a PhD...
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Raspberry Rabbit
Will preach for food
# 3080
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Posted
I can imagine saying 'yes, bishop, no bishop' but not 'yes dean, no dean' Doesn't sound right. "yes, Mr Dean, no Mr Dean" - for some completely stupid reason that sounds better
Raspberry Rabbit
MOntreal, QC
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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Ken:
They normally do not revert to using Dr if they have a research doctorate. They prefer Mr A. Smith M.D.
Very few medical Doctors get a Ph.d, they prefer a M.D. (Doctor of Medecine) and the only title that they drop the 'Mr' for is 'Prof'. Though maybe Sir or Lord is acceptable.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie:
the only title that they drop the 'Mr' for is 'Prof'. Though maybe Sir or Lord is acceptable.
Which might require us to explain that in Britain the title "Professor" indicates a very senior academic. It gets handed out for different reasons in different places but it a small minority of academics.
In Germany and the USA it is rather more liberally spread about and in France even schoolteachers get it.
At a university near me ![[Wink]](wink.gif) the numbers of staff members (not just academics) who use each of these various titles in their computer account is (very approximately give or take a grep):
Mr 446
Ms 445
Dr 422
Miss 106
Mrs 91
Prof. 75
And amongst the students:
Mr 4036
Ms 1673
Miss 1795
Mrs 858
Dr 123
Rev 6
Revd 1
Sir 1
So who is the hold-out "Revd." ? And why do a larger proportion of staff than students use "Miss"?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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LatinMan
Shipmate
# 1892
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Posted
At one time, the title "professor" was given to band leaders and even individual musicians.
[ 03. July 2003, 14:49: Message edited by: LatinMan ]
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crunt
Shipmate
# 1321
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
I have not called anyone "Father" since my earthly father died many years back.
m
I address anyone wearing clerical garb as Father until otherwise requested. As for my own parents, I have never called them anything but mum, or dad (to their faces). Calling your minister daddy, or mummy would be odd, but to my ears the honorific father or mother is both respectful and loving.
[fixed quote tags]
[ 04. July 2003, 20:20: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
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QUIZ: Bible
QUIZ: world religions
LTL Discussion
languagespider.com
Posts: 269 | From: Up country in the middle of Malaysia | Registered: Sep 2001
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Raspberry Rabbit
Will preach for food
# 3080
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Posted
I am about to take a parish which refers to its priest as its 'minister' and, while they're used to calling their *minister* by his first name (which is fine by me) might possibly be coerced to refer to him as Reverend Rabbit.
It's a battle I know I'll never win and don't even intend to try and fight
Reverend Rabbit
Montreal, Quebec (for the moment)
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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
When the Venerable Ken Bolton was elected to the provincial duma in 1972, a member of a CBC radio panel on which he featured referred to him as Comrade Archdeacon. Would this not be a useful solution to the nomenclature challenge facing us?
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
When the Venerable Ken Bolton was elected to the provincial duma in 1972, a member of a CBC radio panel on which he featured referred to him as Comrade Archdeacon. Would this not be a useful solution to the nomenclature challenge facing us?
Only if he truly is a member of the Party.
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anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
...if the priest is a member of an order such as SSC or OGS.
Know many of them here in Sydney?
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
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irreverentkit
Apostle's Amanuensis
# 4271
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Elephenor:
quote:
Originally posted by irreverentkit:
Or, if you can call someone with a Ph.D. "doctor", why can't you call someone with an M.Div. "master"?
You can indeed, though it is customarily abbreviated "Mr" (or, presumably, "Ms" in your case).
Still doesn't have the same ring as "the Rev. Master ..." (also, have you noticed how many people use the honorific Mr. ...? Even if they DON'T have advanced degrees????? Maybe this is honorific inflation, so I could bump right up to Rev. Dr., even though I only have a Master's degree ...)
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
anglicanrascal, I am acquainted with several Sydney priests who are OGS members....it appears to be very much a boys' club. A pity, really, I understand their annual get-togethers are a riot, albeit a popish one!
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irreverentkit:
Maybe this is honorific inflation, so I could bump right up to Rev. Dr., even though I only have a Master's degree ...)
Heck, I bumped myself right up to Rev. Dr.
If anyone wants to complain about it, I'll just excommunicate him.
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The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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LatinMan
Shipmate
# 1892
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Posted
quote:
If anyone wants to complain about it, I'll just excommunicate him.
On his way to Sunday school?
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Posts: 603 | From: The Marches of the Archdiocese of Chicago | Registered: Nov 2001
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Maple Leaf
Shipmate
# 1429
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Posted
I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that one can't possibly call one's doctor or lawyer by his or her first name. Whyever not? I have known my doctor for upwards of 18 years, she's my own age, and we call each other by our first names. I don't really have a lawyer, but I seem to recall the gentleman who did our last real estate transaction calling me by my first name, which in turn caused me to call him by his. I have always called my rector Harold, by his request. I refer to our bishop as Bishop Ann, and have managed to avoid calling her anything to her face, in our one or two conversations.
(BEGIN TANGENT: This reminds me of my husband's absurd situation: After 18-plus years of marriage, he still doesn't call my parents anything! He refers to them as "your mother" and "your father," and makes eye contact to get their attention. My mother (an old-school colonial) thinks being first-named is disrespectful, and I think calling the grandmother of your children "Mrs." is ridiculous, so he's betwixt and between. I wish he could just say "Ma" and "Pa!" END TANGENT)
Is this one of those Old World/New World things?
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Nice to be back... I've missed you.
Posts: 144 | From: Working in Toronto; living in hope | Registered: Sep 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Dear Mrs Leaf--- it's not so much a new world/ old world thing, but it might be a cultural maze entwined with ethnicity, region, occupation etc etc. I use Mr & Mrs of friends of my mother, although I have known them for nigh-on forty years; my doctor, roughly my contemporary, gets Dr X; Folk with office or seniority get the formal moniker. This is how my father and mother addressed these people and both my brother and I still follow this practice.
As well, I have worked in offices with lots of African and Caribbean immigrants, who tend to use formal address and students are sent over to me with the admonition to ask Mr Aleut how to deal with a particular headache.
However, the francophones I work with and interact with always use the informal tu with each other, and use first names, even among very differing levels and while addressing the clergy. Oddly enough, teachers appear to get vous and their first names!
Of course, it may be that eastern Ontario is still a very backward place, and not yet caught up in the egalitarian whirlwind of the métropole.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Maple Leaf:
I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that one can't possibly call one's doctor or lawyer by his or her first name. Whyever not?
[...]
Is this one of those Old World/New World things?
Not at all. It's just that I don't know the doctor's first name because when I see a doctor it is always someone different. I am less likely to recognise them than I am to recognise the people in the checkout at the supermarket.
I worked for a US company for 14 years. In general the Brits were less formal about names and ranks than the Americans.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
anglicanrascal, I am acquainted with several Sydney priests who are OGS members....it appears to be very much a boys' club. A pity, really, I understand their annual get-togethers are a riot, albeit a popish one!
I told one of the ones I know about a post of yours where you commented on a sermon of his. He was rather tickled by the attention, I ween. So, would it be worth joining OGS (under false pretences, of course) just so I could MW the annual get-together?
Pax,
anglicanrascal
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
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anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Degs:
quote:
Originally posted by anglicanrascal:
So, would it be worth joining OGS (under false pretences, of course) just so I could MW the annual get-together?
anglicanrascal, tat-queen!
It would be more likely to be: "anglicanrascal, moderate tat-person". What's so funny about that?
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Seeing as the customary abbreviation for Father is Fr, presumably Mother becomes Mr? Could be fun.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Angloid, The title is The Voices of Morebath: Reformation and Rebellion in an English Village . It's a truly great read.
Is "Father Deacon", as in Father Deacon Stephen, common outside of AC circles in the USA?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Sacristan
Shipmate
# 3548
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Dumb Acolyte:
Is "Father Deacon", as in Father Deacon Stephen, common outside of AC circles in the USA?
No.
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More abomination, more abomination
Posts: 1008 | From: West of Gotham | Registered: Nov 2002
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sacristan:
quote:
Originally posted by The Dumb Acolyte:
Is "Father Deacon", as in Father Deacon Stephen, common outside of AC circles in the USA?
No.
Which leads to the question: Is 'Father Deacon" commonly used inside AC circles in the USA?
Seriously, I have never heard this, but I'm hardly one to know.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Ben Goshi
Apprentice
# 4762
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Posted
I don't think it's even used in Atlantic City . . .
Posts: 9 | From: County Seat | Registered: Jul 2003
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Elizabeth Anne
Altar Girl
# 3555
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by angloid:
Seeing as the customary abbreviation for Father is Fr, presumably Mother becomes Mr? Could be fun.
I have seen Mo. used as an abbreviation for Mother.
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Born under a bad sign with a blue moon in my eyes...
Posts: 974 | From: New York | Registered: Nov 2002
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I open by apologizing to shipmates for giving breath to this awful thread, but I have just found a reference to the curate of S Andrew's, Las Cruces, New Mexico, as "Padrecita Jeanne."
Some may find this appellation twee, but I think that this approach has a certain charm and it may well fit some clerics.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sacristan
Shipmate
# 3548
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Posted
It might be useful for a priest who has trans-gendered. Otherwise, ordination of females aside, why not "Madresita". Or, perhaps an especially attractive one might be called "Mamasita". ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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More abomination, more abomination
Posts: 1008 | From: West of Gotham | Registered: Nov 2002
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Being kind sorts in MW, we forgive you, Augustine.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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