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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Inside The Mind Of Chick, vol CXVII...
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Rex Monday
None but a blockhead
# 2569
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Posted
I just can't resist sharing. Sorry.
"On January 24 this year, Pope John Paul II again illustrated his position as head of the Mother of Harlots and Abominations by inviting 200 delegates from 12 major world religions to Assisi, Italy to pray together for world peace."
-- Jack Chick
[ 26. April 2003, 23:09: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]
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I am largely against organised religion, which is why I am so fond of the C of E.
Posts: 514 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: Mar 2002
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
I'm sure Chick would prefer prayers for the "Best Way of Blowing to Bits all those Goddamned Commies, Atheists, Catholics, Homos and Anyone Else Who Isnt a Fundie"
What sort of nutters believe this bilge ? ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif) ![[Flaming]](graemlins/angryfire.gif)
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I can't believe that the Holy Father thought that our Jack wouldn't see through that old world peace gag.
Haw! Haw! Haw!
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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da_musicman
Shipmate
# 1018
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Posted
Okay this is an Onion style satire right? Right? Please say its so.
Posts: 3202 | From: The Dreaming | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Actually, while I find Chick repellent and just plain wrong, he's not focusing on The Evils Of World Peace in this case, but on the Evils of Ecumenical Interaction.
Just to keep our Evils straight here.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by da_musicman:
Okay this is an Onion style satire right? Right? Please say its so.
Sadly it's Jack Chick's exact feelings on various subjects.
Viki
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
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Ann
Curious
# 94
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Actually, while I find Chick repellent and just plain wrong, he's not focusing on The Evils Of World Peace in this case, but on the Evils of Ecumenical Interaction.
Just to keep our Evils straight here.
And also the evils of petitioning the Almighty in languages not seen in the KJV?
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Ann
Posts: 3271 | From: IO 91 PI | Registered: May 2001
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SteveTom
Contributing Editor
# 23
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Posted
It is astonishing to see evangelical Christians stepping onto that bridge on one end while at the same time Hindus, Buddhists, and pagans of every stripe are stepping onto it from the other.
I just adore the worldview that naturally divides all faiths in the world into "evangelical Protestants" and "everybody else".
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I saw a naked picture of me on the internet
Wearing Jesus's new snowshoes.
Well, golly gee.
- Eels
Posts: 1363 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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Amanuensis
Idler
# 1555
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Posted
"what happens to Chick tracts after you pass them out?".
I think I have a rough idea. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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What's new?
Posts: 547 | From: Cornwall | Registered: Oct 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
You mean evangelicals aren't the only real Christians after all? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Rex Monday
None but a blockhead
# 2569
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Actually, while I find Chick repellent and just plain wrong, he's not focusing on The Evils Of World Peace in this case, but on the Evils of Ecumenical Interaction.
Just to keep our Evils straight here.
I know. I am guilty of quoting out of context for rhetorical ends, and if proof-texting be a sin when working with the words of the Divine OP how can it be right when battling with Mr Chick? I unreservedly apologise to the man (or whatever person or persons spew up that mighty flow). But if ever proof were needed that America is not bereft of irony but rather the world's leading producer, here 'tis.
R
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"...and those who fain would serve thee best,
are conscious most of Spong within"
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I am largely against organised religion, which is why I am so fond of the C of E.
Posts: 514 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: Mar 2002
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
Guys like Chick make me feel self-conscious when describing myself as a "Christian." To many people, his ilk are the only Christians they encounter.
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
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eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736
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Posted
Please don't slag off JTC, his comics have provided amusement for millions, and brought many people to the Lord (probably). Chick tracts are always high quality and about the only Christian publications that don't make me cringe.
His conspiracy theories are a bit... much.... ..but most of his views are those than can be found in an MOR CofE church, only Jack has the guts to say what he thinks. Frankly I find the A**** course nonsense to be far more offensive.
Posts: 52 | From: overboard | Registered: Apr 2002
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
most of his views are those than can be found in an MOR CofE church,
Really?
I've come across less extreme versions of such views, but nothing like them in any kind of CofE church. (Thank God!)
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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Tim V
Shipmate
# 830
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
Please don't slag off JTC, his comics have provided amusement for millions, and brought many people to the Lord (probably). Chick tracts are always high quality and about the only Christian publications that don't make me cringe.
His conspiracy theories are a bit... much.... ..but most of his views are those than can be found in an MOR CofE church, only Jack has the guts to say what he thinks. Frankly I find the A**** course nonsense to be far more offensive.
OK, for the sake of my sanity I'm going to assume the above is satire. Please don't disillusion me. Please?
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Scots steel tempered wi' Irish fire.
Is the weapon that I desire.
Posts: 212 | From: The crow's nest | Registered: Jul 2001
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eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736
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Posted
quote:
I'm sure Chick would prefer prayers for the "Best Way of Blowing to Bits all those Goddamned Commies, Atheists, Catholics, Homos and Anyone Else Who Isnt a Fundie"
I think Jack Chick merely wants to see people saved. None of his literature promotes violence.
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The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!
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Ham'n'Eggs
Ship's Pig
# 629
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
but most of his views are those than can be found in an MOR CofE church
Name one!
(Not St. Helen's, Bishopsgate, which by no stretch of the imagination could be described as MOR.)
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"...the heresies that men do leave / Are hated most of those they did deceive" - Will S
Posts: 3103 | From: Genghis Khan's sleep depot | Registered: Jun 2001
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eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736
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Posted
Apologies for double posting but editing appears to be a privelege granted only to the mods.
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
most of his views are those than can be found in an MOR CofE church,
Really?
I've come across less extreme versions of such views, but nothing like them in any kind of CofE church. (Thank God!)
What, views like salvation is through Jesus Christ only? That if you don't repent you are doomed for the lake of fire (Matthew 25.41)? Homosexuality is sinful? That some aspects of the Roman church are less than Biblical? Please expand...
quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
Please don't slag off JTC, his comics have provided amusement for millions, and brought many people to the Lord (probably). Chick tracts are always high quality and about the only Christian publications that don't make me cringe.
His conspiracy theories are a bit... much.... ..but most of his views are those than can be found in an MOR CofE church, only Jack has the guts to say what he thinks. Frankly I find the A**** course nonsense to be far more offensive.
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OK, for the sake of my sanity I'm going to assume the above is satire. Please don't disillusion me. Please?
Chick tracts preach that one is saved through Jesus, and that not repenting leads to hell. At their best they put across the very basic message of Christianity well.
This is what Alpha would teach, yes? Except one gets to read a humour packed cartoon instead of eating pasta with a bunch of middle-class evangelicals.
Chick tracts are always quality. The only other Christian literature that hasn't either made me fume/cringe/yawn was some Adrian Plass. And Chick doesn't have "Stress Family Robinson" QC problems of writing total shit half the time. I think even cuddly AP believes non-repenters go to hell, at least from what I can acertain.
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The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!
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Ham'n'Eggs
Ship's Pig
# 629
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Posted
And how is The Death Cookie in any way "basic Christianity" rather than appalling ignorance and judgementalism?
And what exactly do you mean by Biblical (bearing in mind that all strands of Christianity are based on the Bible)? Your own point of view, at the exclusion of everyone elses?
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"...the heresies that men do leave / Are hated most of those they did deceive" - Will S
Posts: 3103 | From: Genghis Khan's sleep depot | Registered: Jun 2001
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Xavierite
Shipmate
# 2575
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Posted
Jack Chick's constant flow of tracts are very good at highlighting at least one Biblical principle, at any rate:
quote:
As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Proverbs 26:11 (Authorised Version, naturally)
I don't get particularly upset by anti-Catholic Protestants who base their opposition on things the Catholic Church actually teaches, or things the Catholic Church has actually done in history. But since Jack Chick just spews drivel with no relation to either history (his only historical citations are other Chick tracts or rabid anti-Catholic publications from the 19th-century) or Catholic teaching (Trent did not say that anyone who denies its dogmas should be executed, no matter how much Chick claims otherwise), then I do find the idea that anyone could consider him a genuine representative of Christianity disturbing. There's a page here that provides an outline of World History According to Jack Chick. When you put it all together, it reads like a monologue from the asylum:
The Awful Truth
If he's mentally ill, then God help him. I feel sorry for him. The alternative is that he bears false witness on a scale which is almost beyond comprehension.
Then, of course, there's the fact that he's immensely vulgar, and that his depiction of God makes Him appear an anthropomorphic sadist. However, I don't suppose one can fairly hold his artistic and spiritual limitations to be moral flaws.
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Eleighteen:
quote:
Please don't slag off JTC,
But Jack wants people like me to be thrown in the Lake of Fire and tormented for saying the Hail Mary and not being a lunatic fundamentalist. All I want to do is take the mickey a bit. Have some sense of proportion.
quote:
his comics have provided amusement for millions,
Well, that is undoubtedly true.
quote:
and brought many people to the Lord (probably).
Unfortunately all these people have been left with the distinct impression that the Lord is actually a faceless malevolent entity whose main recreation involves throwing people into the lake of fire. If Mr Chick wishes to worship such a deity, so be it. But for those of us who follow the Lord Jesus Christ, it is frustrating to see our Lord and God tarred with the shortcomings of Mr Chick's particular idol.
quote:
His conspiracy theories are a bit... much.... ..but most of his views are those than can be found in an MOR CofE
Ummm, I used to attend an MOR church, not long ago. I once took the opportunity to explain the Chick phenomenon to some of my fellow members. Appalled hilarity is the best description of their response. Frankly, if I were to attribute such views to anything like the majority of evangelical Anglicans, most of the evangelical Anglicans on this board would flame me to Hell and back.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736
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Posted
quote:
"what happens to Chick tracts after you pass them out?".
Chick tracts get read!
quote:
And how is The Death Cookie in any way "basic Christianity" rather than appalling ignorance and judgementalism?
Chick doesn't attack the ritual of celebrating Jesus by consuming the bread and wine of Christ. He simply maintains the long held Protestant view that the ritual is symbolic, and not literal. As Jesus said, "Eat this in REMEMBRANCE of me". This has been debated to death on these boards, and everywhere else in the world. Chick is entitled to his opinion on this matter as much as you are.
quote:
But Jack wants people like me to be thrown in the Lake of Fire and tormented for saying the Hail Mary and not being a lunatic fundamentalist.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) JTC doesn't want anyone to be thrown into the lake of fire. His views on Roman Catholicism are controversial, but he's no bigot. He's never suggested rounding up the Catholics and killing them for their beliefs. What Jack has tried to do is convert Catholics to what he considers true Christianity-- a personal relationship with Christ. Not through torture, not through burning at the stake, but through comic books.
quote:
And what exactly do you mean by Biblical (bearing in mind that all strands of Christianity are based on the Bible)? Your own point of view, at the exclusion of everyone elses?
Doesn't the Roman church do just this, in saying it is the one true church. I know it tries to qualify the statement, but that just makes it seem worse to me...
quote:
Frankly, if I were to attribute such views to anything like the majority of evangelical Anglicans, most of the evangelical Anglicans on this board would flame me to Hell and back.
See my post ealier about what Evangelical Anglicans think, the similarities of them to Chick and explain as I am bit thick
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The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!
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Xavierite
Shipmate
# 2575
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
His views on Roman Catholicism are controversial, but he's no bigot.
To quote the Man himself:
HAW! HAW! HAW!
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Inanna
Ship's redhead
# 538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
What Jack has tried to do is convert Catholics to what he considers true Christianity-- a personal relationship with Christ.
But that assumes that Catholics don't have this to begin with. Which is most definitely an incorrect assumption.
Telling Catholics that their religion was founded by Satan is really not a good way to go about getting them to listen, either...
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All shall be well
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.
Posts: 1495 | From: Royal Oak, MI | Registered: Jun 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
Chick doesn't attack the ritual of celebrating Jesus by consuming the bread and wine of Christ. He simply maintains the long held Protestant view that the ritual is symbolic, and not literal.
No, I'm afraid he doesn't "simply" do that; if that were the case, it would be fine. He claims a host (no pun intended) of other things about the RC Church which attribute it to Satan in countless particulars. Saying "the ritual is symbolic" or even "belief in transubstantiation is idolatrous" is not the same as dragging in Osiris and so on (see links above).
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Tim V
Shipmate
# 830
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Inanna:
Telling Catholics that their religion was founded by Satan is really not a good way to go about getting them to listen, either...
You know, I had this from a couple of Catholics once. Didn't take it personally since they were misguided on so many other things.
Anyway, we've yet to hear how the Alpha course is more offensive than Jack Chick.
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Scots steel tempered wi' Irish fire.
Is the weapon that I desire.
Posts: 212 | From: The crow's nest | Registered: Jul 2001
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eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736
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Posted
quote:
No, I'm afraid he doesn't "simply" do that; if that were the case, it would be fine. He claims a host (no pun intended) of other things about the RC Church which attribute it to Satan in countless particulars.
quote:
If he's mentally ill, then God help him. I feel sorry for him.
For all this talk about how Jack is crazy, most of his historical facts are....well... facts. No one can prove or disprove if the Catholic Church is really out to take over the world by sinister means. But no-one can refute the Catholic Crusades, or the forged letter to King Pepin from Saint Peter? These are factual Papal intrigues.
Some of what Jack says is clearly conjecture on his part, but if you try to pin him down in an outright lie, you might be surprised how difficult it is to do. He may be vague when it comes to details, and his suspicions about the real motivations of who did what (e.g., Lenin and Marx were closet Catholics, Hitler worked for the Pope) are impossible to prove (or disprove), but most the names and dates are indeed correct. (Yes, Hitler did model the S.S. after the Jesuits, but that doesn't prove he worked for the Pope.)
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The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!
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Matrix
Shipmate
# 3452
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Posted
Just to throw something into the mix...
I really dislike the tone and content of many Chick tracts, BUT, my older brother, who had no faith at all (his words..) somehow got hold of a great stack of them, which led him to search for himself. He agreed with some, disagreed with others, and has come to some level of faith in Christ because of them.
Something about grace comes to mind...
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Maybe that's all a family really is; a group of people who miss the same imaginary place. - Garden State
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eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tim V:
quote:
Originally posted by Inanna:
Telling Catholics that their religion was founded by Satan is really not a good way to go about getting them to listen, either...
You know, I had this from a couple of Catholics once. Didn't take it personally since they were misguided on so many other things.
Anyway, we've yet to hear how the Alpha course is more offensive than Jack Chick.
Nicky Gumbell for starters.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0095/0095_01.asp
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The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!
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Xavierite
Shipmate
# 2575
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
Some of what Jack says is clearly conjecture on his part, but if you try to pin him down in an outright lie, you might be surprised how difficult it is to do.
I like surprises. Let's start with The Death Cookie. The first piece of factual information Mr Chick claims to provide is regarding the similarity between the Catholic Mass and the worship habits of ancient Egyptians. We are told that the priests of Egypt consecrate unleavened bread, and then claimed "transubstantiation" had taken place, with the bread becoming God.
This is historical bunk. It was born in the work, "The Two Babylons", by Alexander Hislop - a nineteenth century anti-Catholic cleric. It's also very obviously untrue. Transubstantiation has a specific meaning - the maintenance of the appearances whilst the substance has changed. Since the language to express these concepts is rooted in Aristotelian categories which the scholastics adopted, the idea that ancient Egyptians had the equivalent is patently untrue. For further reasons to reject Hislop's work, see:
Tektonics Review of "The Two Babylons"
It's brief, but it makes the points that need making. Note that the website is a non-denominational Christian one, as opposed to a Catholic apologetics one. Another of the main debunkers of the Babylon mystery religion claims is Ralph Woodrow, who as a young man was one of its main exponents. See:
Is Catholicism Pagan?
The next thing Mr Chick shows is a Mass in action. The priest says "Hocus Pocus Domi Nocus". It goes without saying that this is a total misrepresentation of consecration. I can't actually work out when Chick's trying to be funny any more.
Regarding Scripture - well, it's true that laity weren't given their own copies of the Scriptures, although they did hear readings from them, and popular versions of Scriptural stories were shared through oral traditions. This can be attributed both to the Church's lack of belief in the Reformed doctrine of the perspicuity of Scripture, and the fear of heresy spreading.
The panel which deals with the Church inventing lots of other Jesuses is so dumb as to not even merit comment, apart from a brief note that the Tektonics page above points out the problem with the IHS theory regarding the Eucharist. If Chick can't cope with the idea of believing in Christ and at the same time recognising that there was more than one stage in His life (presumably Chick doesn't read the infancy narratives), then that's really his problem, not the Catholic Church's.
The next claim - that the Church did not teach justification by faith - is also nonsense. It didn't teach justification by faith alone - but then, the only place that that is explicitly mentioned in the Bible, it's to deny that it's true. (James 2:24) There are some good Protestant counter-arguments, but Chick doesn't provide them. And the Catholic Church has always taught that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.
Chick's interpretation of Luke 22:19 - "do this in remembrance of me" as evidence of Christ instituting a purely symbolic meal - ignores the dialogue in John 6, which I warmly recommend to you. It also ignores Jesus' words: "This is my body" (as opposed to, for instance, "this symbolises my body".) Doing something to remember someone doesn't mean that what you are doing is symbolic. Again, there's no doubt that better arguments can be made in favour of the Protestant position. But you won't be reading them in a Chick tract. Like his history, Jack's exegesis is pretty poor.
The claim that 68 million people died in the Inquisition is unsupported by any historical documentation. However, there's an excellent article available here which addresses the claims of prominent anti-Catholics such as Chick:
The Inquisition
Next in The Death Cookie, Chick informs us that the canons and decrees of Trent demand the execution of anyone who denies transubstantiation. This is nonsense. When Church councils that someone is "anathema", it means their beliefs in this area are wrong - they are, literally, "cursed" (in that they have separated themselves from God's truth.) There is no implication that they should therefore be executed.
And yes, Catholics do engage in Eucharistic adoration. That's because we believe that God is present, and we worship God. Chick is right on this point. If people want to call it idolatry, that's fine. But unless they can make a compelling case (and as we've seen, Chick hasn't quite succeeded on that front) then they shouldn't expect Catholics to pay much attention to them.
quote:
He may be vague when it comes to details, and his suspicions about the real motivations of who did what (e.g., Lenin and Marx were closet Catholics, Hitler worked for the Pope) are impossible to prove (or disprove), but most the names and dates are indeed correct. (Yes, Hitler did model the S.S. after the Jesuits, but that doesn't prove he worked for the Pope.)
No, not vague. Wrong. If intentionally wrong, then a liar. If unintentionally wrong, then incompetent and lacking in integrity. Getting the names and dates right really isn't saying much. If I said that the Holocaust was masterminded by American Jewish bankers, and named some of them and then named the Nazi command and accurately told you when the Holocaust happened, I'd be fulfilling your criteria for "speculation". Personally, it seems obvious to me that this isn't "speculation". It's lying. Or madness. To claim that the KKK, communism, Nazism, freemasonry, Islam, Christian Science, the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, etc. etc. etc. were all spawned by the Catholic Church - without a single shred of credible evidence, and in the face of massive amounts of counter-evidence - is not honest, and is certainly not Christian. It's also an enormous insult to those, living and dead, whose suffering as a result of these phenomena is trivialised and treated as a means to an end - the end being the pursuit of a rabid anti-Catholic agenda.
These things really shouldn't need explaining. Chick's stuff belongs in the same bin as hardcore pornography and Holocaust revisionism.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
Lenin and Marx were closet Catholics
Wow! A conspiracy theory I've never heard before! This is wonderful!
A really, really DUMB conspiracy theory, but still one I've never heard before.
I have heard the Isis bit before though. Once someone really told me that IHS stood for "Isis, Horus, Seth". ![[Frown]](frown.gif) IIRC he was a Methodist. Most Anglicans (MOR or otherwise) seem to think it stands for "In His Service". Maybe there should be compulsory Greek language lessons.
And why those 3 names if Osiris is meant to be the point.
There are enough evil things in church history without making more up.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
I note that eleighteen has described himself on his profile as 'arguably not a christian'
I have no right to say, but if you're thinking of calling yourself something else instead, could you do it as soon as possible, as I think you would definitely put off the vast bulk of people with brain intact if they think that Christianity had anything at all to do with the sickening bigotry you have decided to assault us with here today. You have even managed to offend the other evangelicals on the board, which suggests to me that you may have your own agenda.
Which church do you attend?
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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da_musicman
Shipmate
# 1018
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
Nicky Gumbell for starters.
Link to Chick Tract
This tract is an offence to scripture, an offence to the Gospel, and an offence to Jesus.
Amen to that Wood
[edited to test scroll problem]
[ 31. October 2002, 09:30: Message edited by: frin ]
Posts: 3202 | From: The Dreaming | Registered: Jul 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
quote:
Anyway, we've yet to hear how the Alpha course is more offensive than Jack Chick.
Nicky Gumbell for starters.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0095/0095_01.asp[/QB]
That link doesn't point to anything about Nicky Gumbell, or Alpha. It points to a Chick tract about a hypocritical preacher who isn't saved, and a humble poor man who tries to convert him.
It isn't a looney tract like the Cookie one is, pretty straightforward presentation of the gospel. A sort of updating of the story of the rich man and Lazarus into the style of a 1950s EC comic.
Much like Alpha really, though a bit cruder and more direct and without the tea.
Or are you implying that Gumbell is like they hypocritical preacher in the tract? In which case you have to say something about Gumbell. We all know that rich hypocrites exist. Do you think he is one of them?
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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da_musicman
Shipmate
# 1018
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Posted
Wot got up my nose about this was the way in which the man was condemned for not preaching salvation by faith but by works.Now In the only part of the tract where he was preaching he didn't make any such claim.He just said that Jesus wanted us to help the poor and to stop bickering (If my memory serves me correctly.).So this gives credence to the lie that we don't need to do these things that they are in someway extra to the gospel rather thasn being a fundamental(Dangerous word to use. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ) part. After all it is the Gospel of the Kingdom.And aren't we suppose to try and usher it in even though we can't be ourselves?
Posts: 3202 | From: The Dreaming | Registered: Jul 2001
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Xavierite
Shipmate
# 2575
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Posted
Da_Musicman,
The only acceptable ministry is the Drawing Of Obnoxious Cartoon Strips. You should know better than to ask such heretical questions.
Posts: 2307 | Registered: Apr 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Wow!
eleighteen and Jack Chick have managed, in one small thread, to do more for interfaith ecumenical agreement than anyone in recent memory; at very least, we're all in agreement on one thing now!
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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da_musicman
Shipmate
# 1018
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
Da_Musicman,
The only acceptable ministry is the Drawing Of Obnoxious Cartoon Strips. You should know better than to ask such heretical questions.
Oh dear because I can only draw stick men plus they all look as if their legs have been broken. Just think of the schisms that could develop from that?
Posts: 3202 | From: The Dreaming | Registered: Jul 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by da_musicman:
Wot got up my nose about this was the way in which the man was condemned for not preaching salvation by faith but by works.Now In the only part of the tract where he was preaching he didn't make any such claim.He just said that Jesus wanted us to help the poor and to stop bickering (If my memory serves me correctly.).So this gives credence to the lie that we don't need to do these things that they are in someway extra to the gospel rather thasn being a fundamental(Dangerous word to use. ) part. After all it is the Gospel of the Kingdom.And aren't we suppose to try and usher it in even though we can't be ourselves?
I think you are over-interpreting. Just because Jack Chick is a dangerous, aggressive, bigoted, looney who is willing to invent "facts" (or at least overlook the origin of "facts" in order to bolster his threadbare arguments, doesn't mean everything he says is a conspiracy...
Did you notice, the preacher in the strip shared a taxi with a Roman Catholic priest! He was unequally yoked! No wonder the other 300 people on those planes deserved to die, they were in the same aircraft as a man who rode in cars with Jesuits! How pagan can you get!
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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SteveTom
Contributing Editor
# 23
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
This tract is an offence to scripture, an offence to the Gospel, and an offence to Jesus.
Pretty much hits the nail on the head.
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I saw a naked picture of me on the internet
Wearing Jesus's new snowshoes.
Well, golly gee.
- Eels
Posts: 1363 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736
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Posted
quote:
I note that eleighteen has described himself on his profile as 'arguably not a christian'
I have no right to say, but if you're thinking of calling yourself something else instead, could you do it as soon as possible, as I think you would definitely put off the vast bulk of people with brain intact if they think that Christianity had anything at all to do with the sickening bigotry you have decided to assault us with here today.
Wow! You've cast me into the lake of fire as "not a Christian", despite the fact I've discussed not one of my views here. Except a liking for Chick tracts (though I've expressed no agreement or disagreement with the theology within them). Hawhawhaw! You appear to be guilty of even worse bigotry than that you accuse Chick of.
Actually I'm not sure where I've "unleashed bigotry", perhaps you could point me the post where I have. I've merely attempted to defend Jack Chick's right to his opinions - right or wrong - and to try and show where he may be coming from.
quote:
You have even managed to offend the other evangelicals on the board
Evangelicals often... ..well not upset me.. ..not any more.. ...but I strongly disagree with many of their views. Not that I'd call them bigots or deny they are Christians 'though. Oh and "other evangelicals" ![[Confused]](confused.gif) Have I said I'm an evangelical?
quote:
Which church do you attend?
Why is this relevant? This thread is about the views of Jack Chick. In my experience (and I apologise if I'm wrong) such questions tend to be asked by overenthusiastic CU-ers seeking to denounce people as "unsound".
quote:
That link doesn't point to anything about Nicky Gumbell, or Alpha. It points to a Chick tract about a hypocritical preacher who isn't saved, and a humble poor man who tries to convert him... ...Or are you implying that Gumbell is like they hypocritical preacher in the tract?
I was trolling here and I retract. However Gumbell - to me - appears a bit of an egotist, and I have strong reservations about Alpha (which is perhaps for another thread). As for the tract itself.. ...well it's not in a style to everyone's taste.. ...but it shows good deeds are not the way to God but faith is.. ...something which the vast majority of unbelievers out there don't realise.
quote:
I really dislike the tone and content of many Chick tracts, BUT, my older brother, who had no faith at all (his words..) somehow got hold of a great stack of them, which led him to search for himself. He agreed with some, disagreed with others, and has come to some level of faith in Christ because of them.
And that is the point of Chick. His cartoon interpretations of the gospel - whether you agree them or not - get read and get people thinking, and in that they do some (a lot) of good.
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The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!
Posts: 52 | From: overboard | Registered: Apr 2002
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
<snip> Anyway, we've yet to hear how the Alpha course is more offensive than Jack Chick.
quote:
Nicky Gumbell for starters.
Chick Tract
It seems to be more of a pot shot against Tony Campolo rather than Gumbell. (Who may not have registered on Jack's radar as yet).
And it is indeed, an offence against the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Now, anyone got any screen wipe, my 'puter feels dirty ...
Tubbs
[Code was dirty too.]
[ 23. October 2002, 23:15: Message edited by: sarkycow ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
Why don't you try answering the questions, eleighteen ? Or do you have something to hide ?
You have come on here to defend Chick, something which hardly anyone else wishes to do.
So from what position do you support him, given that you say you are not an evangelical ? Thats why I asked which church you go to, as you seem to have damned both Catholics, by your support of Chick, and the evangelicalism of Alpha. So where are you coming from ?
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
Ah. I understand now.
Someone who describes themselves as probably not a Christian, has a sig. implying that they are an unbeliever, has in another place stated that Jesus' historicity is "irrelevant" and is defending Jack Chick as a purveyor of the same sort of things found in MoR churches.
Don't miss next week's episode when eleighteen will be providing evidence of the processes that went into creating a large spheroid of green cheese to orbit the earth.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dyfrig:
Someone who describes themselves as probably not a Christian, has a sig. implying that they are an unbeliever
[Tangent]
A few people have commented similarly on this person's credentials and, while I don't want to get involve in the whole Chick Mad/Not Mad thing (I vote for Mad, incidentally), it does make me wonder a little. I didn't think, while I was lurking, that is was a requirement to be a practising Christian to join this board.
Anyone who looks at my profile will notice that I put 'none' in the 'Religion or Denomination' section. I put this because I was not brought up in any religious tradition, do not currently attend any church, and, even if I did, am not sure that I would wish to define myself in this way. That said, I joined the board because I feel I am engaged in some sort of spiritual 'journey' ( ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) can't think of a better word), and have found the discussions here both helpful and interesting.
Comments on a few threads recently have made me wonder if this is acceptable, if I am breaking some unwritten rule, or if I could be interpreted (as eleighteen is evidently being) as masquerading under false pretences of some kind?
Just wondered, doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to go away either way ![[Smile]](smile.gif) .
[/Tangent]
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
I didn't think, while I was lurking, that is was a requirement to be a practising Christian to join this board.
It's not, and it never has been.
My point is somewhat different - I believe Mr e to playing with us a little, seeing how far he can go with defending the indefensible.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Merseymike:
Why don't you try answering the questions, eleighteen ? Or do you have something to hide ?
You have come on here to defend Chick, something which hardly anyone else wishes to do.
So from what position do you support him, given that you say you are not an evangelical ? Thats why I asked which church you go to, as you seem to have damned both Catholics, by your support of Chick, and the evangelicalism of Alpha. So where are you coming from ?
It is not my intention to go through Chick's supposed offences towards Roman Catholics one by one. I've tried to explain that JTC uses some historical claims, and the validity of his views (like those of his denouncers) are largely conjecture. Basically he has - and is entitled to - his sincerely held views just as much as any of you are.
I'm supporting Chick as his tracts are, IMO, the best quality Christian literature out there. He gets across the simple message that salvation is through Christ ONLY in an effective manner. On this point one cannot argue with Chick, and the simple direct nature of his cartoons tells this fact to a secular world that by and large DOESN'T KNOW THIS. His message is especially effective with a (for want of a better word) working-class audience, who are not too concerned with pontificating about theology.
The other aspects of his (ahem) beliefs are rather less relevant than this central message, and are generally OK by most Christians anyway (I listed some way back that no-one argued with). The anti-Catholic publications are not to everyones taste, but make up only about one in ten of tracts. Remember Jack is human, and we all have our foibles, he only publishes them (at risk to both his livelyhood and LIFE) because he genuinly wishes to see Catholics saved, and sees their CHURCH, not individuals in it as the problem. My opinions on the Roman Church are irrelevant to this debate, my point is you damn Chick on the basis of just one part of his literature.
My comments about Alpha were probably best left to another thread. I don't have a high opinion of it (many don't!) although it does do some good. Likewise evangelicals. The same is true for your opinion of Chick, except I don't post saying that Alpha should be banned, or that Nicky Gumbell is mentally ill (I retracted likening him to "Reverand Wonderful").
There are thousands (hundreds of thousands) of people who have found their way to the Lord with the help of Chick. Ones such testimony is on this thread. Do you think that is bad.....? Or are you just jealous because his ministry is so effective?
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The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!
Posts: 52 | From: overboard | Registered: Apr 2002
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