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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The Un-United Kingdom?
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
OK, I'm a dumb 'Merican. I admit that until I started hanging around here, I thought it was all "England". I mean I knew about Wales and Scotland and Cornwall, but I thought they were kind of like different states. In 'Merica we've got fifty of them, but we all consider ourselves Americans.
So I've learned to say "the United Kingdom" or "Britain" and not "England". I'm amazed at some of the anger I pick up on, especially from some of the Welsch about England. And how do the Scots feel?
Is the "United Kingdom" really a myth? I look at the map and here's this not particulary big island that you could stick in a corner of Texas or California and it seems to have three different countries going at each other hammer and tongs. What's the deal?
Do you see yourselves as a single nation state? Or are you some sort of loose confederacy floating around on the edge of Europe?
I really am curious.
[ 08. January 2006, 22:01: Message edited by: Erin ]
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
It's simple really.
Britain is made up of England, Scotland and Wales.
Great Britain is England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.
The United Kingdom is England, Isle of Man, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, which are in the EU; and the Channel Islands, which are not part of the EU.
The Channel Islands are made up of four countries, Jersey Guernsey Alderney and Sark.
There, I told you it was simple.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
It is a touchy subject Sine. We Welsh have been a persecuted minority for hundreds of years - but that's because everyone else is jealous of us. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
![[Confused]](confused.gif) If I read you correctly, Sine, the anger works the other way round in Britain. The Welsh in particular seem to get very annoyed when you say 'England' but mean 'Britain' etc. This works especially well - if you ever want to see a Welshman spontaneously combust - if you say something like 'The Gower Peninsula is a very beautiful part of England'. Hours of fun for all the family, winding up the non-English British (or UKers or whatever).
(btw, I'm the first generation of my family not to be Scottish, so don't go getting out of your prams about this. I just have a sense of humour about the whole England/GB/UK thing.)
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
We Welsh have been a persecuted minority for hundreds of years - but that's because everyone else is jealous of us.
It's those lovely daffodils. They just don't grow like that anywhere else. Mrs Trellis has a wonderful display in her garden and wins the North Wales In Bloom award regularly, I'm told.
I was surprised to discover that some people think that Dublin, and indeed the whole of the Republic of Ireland) is in the UK. I heard this from one Welsh person who assured me it was common knowledge and an admittedly not terribly bright older Irish man. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25
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Posted
I like the confusion in this country about our identity, means you can pick and choose who you are in various situations.
Sometimes I am Devonian, sometimes English, sometimes British, sometimes European...
Neil
Posts: 6009 | From: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
We Welsh have been a persecuted minority for hundreds of years - but that's because everyone else is jealous of us.
It's those lovely daffodils. They just don't grow like that anywhere else. Mrs Trellis has a wonderful display in her garden and wins the North Wales In Bloom award regularly, I'm told.
Ah, Mrs. Trellis. What would we do without her?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
You all are making fun of me, aren't you?
What do you feel your essential identity is? Mine is being American. The Southern thing is basically a schtick.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
And how do the Scots feel?
Well, during the recent football (soccer) world cup the Scots supported a wide range of teams (in particular Argentina and Brazil picked up a lot of support north of the border). Why was this? Simple ... any team playing England will be supported by Scots.
The official opposition in the Scottish Parliament (that is, the second largest party after Labour) are the Scottish Nationalists ... for whom Scottish independance from England is almost the most important part of their political position.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
So you really don't feel you're part of one country?
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
So you really don't feel you're part of one country?
Heavens, no. For a start I've always seen Wales as a country in its own right. It has its own language - everywhere you go, there are public signs and notices which are bilingual - it has its own culture and customs. It comes across as having a strong national identity. I haven't been to Scotland and don't know whether Gaelic is used in the way that Welsh is on public notices and whether it is taught in all schools but there's no doubting that they also have their own culture and customs and a sense of national identity.
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
So what holds you together besides Her Majesty?
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starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
What do you feel your essential identity is? Mine is being American.
I really don't feel I need one, being me is enough.
Neil
Posts: 6009 | From: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. | Registered: May 2001
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
I find that very hard to understand (along with much else in life). I would think that where you are from would be an important part of who you are. Did it not in large part form you?
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ce
Shipmate
# 1957
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
So what holds you together besides Her Majesty?
Inertia and tax revenues.
I suspect that for many people a vague sense of a long shared history fulfills or replaces the need for any clear sense of national identity.
ce
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ce
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starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I find that very hard to understand (along with much else in life). I would think that where you are from would be an important part of who you are. Did it not in large part form you?
Well yes, living in Exeter affects me, living in Devon affects me, living in England affects me ... which bit is "me"?
Neil
Posts: 6009 | From: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. | Registered: May 2001
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
So putting the Welsh and the Scots to one side for the moment, do the English feel a sense of national identity for "England"?
(A sweeping question. Sorry. I really am curious. This is another of those pond divides. What you're saying is really foreign to me.)
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starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
So putting the Welsh and the Scots to one side for the moment, do the English feel a sense of national identity for "England"?
For me it's only a little bit, but then perhaps I live too much on the fringes to really feel it, I know we have had the "are you English/British" debate before without all even slightly agreeing on what we felt we most were.
Neil
Posts: 6009 | From: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. | Registered: May 2001
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Obnoxious Snob
Arch-Deacon
# 982
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
So putting the Welsh and the Scots to one side for the moment, do the English feel a sense of national identity for "England"?
(A sweeping question. Sorry. I really am curious. This is another of those pond divides. What you're saying is really foreign to me.)
I think one of the really valuable things that being 'English' means is the fact that it is very hard to identify what exactly Englishness is. This enables the 'idea' of England to be flexible, constantly changing and ultimately un-definable. But what do I know? Never, ever tell a Cornishman that he/she 'belongs' to England, that foreign place beyond the Tamar, 'up country' as we like to call it.
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'The best thing we can do is to make wherever we're lost in Look as much like home as we can'
Christopher Fry
Posts: 889 | From: Kernow | Registered: Jul 2001
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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
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Posted
Sign, btw, I am not Welsh. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I am a Scot living in Wales.
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
don't know whether Gaelic is used in the way that Welsh is on public notices and whether it is taught in all schools but there's no doubting that they also have their own culture and customs and a sense of national identity.
Gaelic is taught in some schools, typically in the Gaelic speaking areas and more recently in the cities. There are Gaelic medium schools, and schools where Gaelic is taught as a subject. The same is true for Welsh, except that there are more Welsh speakers than Gaelic speakers.
quote:
Sign asked:
So what holds you together besides Her Majesty?
That woman must have terribly strong shoulder muscles!
Lizzy Windsor does not hold us together. It is things like the laws and institution that do. To make a spilt with the rest of Britain/UK/etc would take an Act of Parliament. There has been some measure of devolution for Scotland, NI and Wales, too much for some, and not enough for others.
The reason that "everyone hates the English" is because of the way that the English overlords tried to repress the local languages, evicted people from the land (to replace them with sheep), treated the locals are almost subhumans, ooh and any number of other things. "Everyone" includes the Cornish, the Devonians, the Cumbrians, the Lancastrians, the Yorkshiremen/women etc.
But quite frankly, that all happened a long time ago, and we need to pick ourselves and stop defining ourselves as 'not English'. The English (by and large) are a charming people, polite and considerate. Hatred is not a good thing, and the national rivarlies are to be pitied rather than condoned.
Far too often 'being English' is the preserve of the extreme xenophobic nationalists, or the arrogantly smug WASPs. So they deny their Englishness to avoid being mistaken for those people. It is time for the English to stand up and be proud of the their country, culture (and multi-cultures), their people and achievments.
English people start claiming back your flag, your heritage and your national pride. Rejoice that you have a beautiful and diverse land and are blessed with many excellent peoples and cultures. Be English, and be proud.
bb
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
So putting the Welsh and the Scots to one side for the moment, do the English feel a sense of national identity for "England"?
Over the last 5 years there has been an increasing use of the English flag so I think the answer is yes. There was a good (humourous) book about this by Jeremy Paxman
I have found my new identity as Irish (which i am not) very helpful when travelling to Arabic countries since there English British and americans are not very welcome.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
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ce
Shipmate
# 1957
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
So putting the Welsh and the Scots to one side for the moment, do the English feel a sense of national identity for "England"?
(A sweeping question. Sorry. I really am curious. This is another of those pond divides. What you're saying is really foreign to me.)
Yes, though to nowhere near the extent that US citizens seem to for "America". I think that most of us are secure enough about our own identites without having to think about it.
Also we tend not to think of England as a "state", it is often more specific things like landscape (relative irrelevancies like green countryside and pretty villages) that people bring to mind in notions of "Englishness", or "Britishness" for that matter.
Try and look at your op from a different tack; I feel much more "at home" in a French city than I do in deepest rural welsh-speaking Wales - and it's not just to do with ability to understand language (and France is nearer as well).
ce
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ce
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
Thank-you all. This is really interesting to me. Not very Hellish perhaps, but you never know.
Have to go rake leaves, but will be back.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I find that very hard to understand (along with much else in life). I would think that where you are from would be an important part of who you are. Did it not in large part form you?
It depends what you mean by "where you're from". It isn't always clearcut. I was born in one country, my ethnic origin is from another, I grew up overseas in three different countries on three different continents and went to some ethnic community schools. If I'm asked I will say I'm Anglo-Irish, but I can't be any more precise than that. I've been influenced by three different cultures and have now accepted that I'm not typical of any of them and I'm just me.
The Irish and Scots have been celebrating their respective national saints' days for years - I don't know whether the Welsh go in for this to the same extent - it came as a surprise to a Welsh colleague when I wished her a happy St David's Day! - but it's only in recent years that we've started to see St George's Day cards on sale and English flags, as opposed to the Union Jack (or Union Flag if you want to be pedantic). Which might be said to be a sign that a sense of English national identity is becoming more important.
This isn't hellish at all - we'd be better off in Purgatory.
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
So putting the Welsh and the Scots to one side for the moment, do the English feel a sense of national identity for "England"?
(A sweeping question. Sorry. I really am curious. This is another of those pond divides. What you're saying is really foreign to me.)
Ingore starbelly for a minute. He is just being a random guy, and talking out of his arse ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I am English. As bb said, it used to be hard to say that, because of the two groups who claimed they were English: BNP and WASPs. It's changing slowly, and now it's more-or-less ok to be English.
So, I am English. I am emphatically not European though.
English is terraced houses, hedgerows, few and precious greenspaces, rights and duties being inextricably linked, history going back 2,000 years, small sweet shops, greengrocers, high streets/town centres, to name but a few things.
Hope this helps.
Sarkycow
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
Uses toasting fork to lob thread over to Purgatory
This is all too reasonable to stay down here.
Sarkycow, hellhost
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
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Crotalus
Shipmate
# 4959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
So, I am English. I am emphatically not European though.
Which continent do you think England is in? Asia? America?
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
England (and the whole of UK/GB) is part of a group of islands off the coast of continental Europe .
As a Scot, I might be more European than the sassenachs... but then they came from Saxony...
{edited because I can't spell "continental" ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) }
[ 08. November 2003, 15:29: Message edited by: daisymay ]
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
So, I am English. I am emphatically not European though.
You are only proving my point that no one can agree on it, so as such we have no coherant collective identity.
Neil
Posts: 6009 | From: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. | Registered: May 2001
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JohnBoot
BOOTED
# 3566
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
So what holds you together besides Her Majesty?
Well, in the Six Counties' case, many thousands (I don't know the current number) of heavily-armed troops of occupation.
[ 08. November 2003, 15:58: Message edited by: JohnBoot ]
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Zipporah
Silent witness
# 3896
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
... it's only in recent years that we've started to see St George's Day cards on sale and English flags, as opposed to the Union Jack (or Union Flag if you want to be pedantic).
About time too! As a Scot I always found it deeply insulting that our English neighbours used the British flag and national anthem (which represent all the British nations) as if they were exclusively the English flag and anthem alone - especially so when used at international events in which Scotland and Wales also take part. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Not that I'm anti-English in any way - far from it! I just dislike the way "British" and "English" are used interchangeably as though the other nations didn't really exist, though admittedly it is getting a lot better now.
[Edited for UBB.]
[ 08. November 2003, 19:12: Message edited by: Tortuf ]
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Back after a lengthy absence - it's been too long ...
A ship in port is safe, but that is not what ships are for. sail out to sea and do new things. Grace Hopper
Posts: 1792 | From: a world of my own | Registered: Jan 2003
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JohnBoot:
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
So what holds you together besides Her Majesty?
Well, in the Six Counties' case, many thousands (I don't know the current number) of heavily-armed troops of occupation.
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Originally posted by Sarkycow
quote:
So, I am English. I am emphatically not European though.
I was all set to respond to this thread with a defence of true English patriotism, on a par with Welsh and Scottish patriotism. But if we English are not European what the H*** (sorry, we've been moved) are we? Welsh and Scottish nationalists talk very positively and sensibly of having a national identity within a wider European context. In England we have been so long used to being top dog and acting unilaterally (often or even nearly always dragging the rest of the UK behind us) that we could pretend not to need the rest of the continent. But this Euroscepticism doesn't fit the fact that we are no longer a major world power and so must act in concert with others. Blair's government is moving fitfully and inconsistently towards some kind of federal UK; but even if that works (and it's doubtful) we need to link with something wider. And if we are not European even less are we American.
Incidentally, the fact that the UK is geographically an island (or islands) doesn't mean we are not part of the continent - Sicily and Sardinia are part of Italy; the Isle of Wight used to be part of Hampshire.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zipporah:
I just dislike the way "British" and "English" are used interchangeably as though the other nations didn't really exist, though admittedly it is getting a lot better now.
"The other nations"? Are Scotland and Wales nations? I know they have their own parliements now, but I had thought they were more like our state legislatures. Or do you mean in their own minds they are nations, but Westminster just hasn't recognized it yet?
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
Just to add my 2p worth....
I live on the south coast of england - and have rarely been into Wales and Scotland. Mainly due to ignorance I admit but I think a lot of us southerners dont really realise the differences between eng/wales/scotland.
I will use British/English interchangeably when describing myself - simply as it makes no difference to me which I use.
I use the words Europe and European to describe the continent "over there" - as per most english folk I think as discussed on another thread recently.
I dont tend to like the use of the British flag prolly cos for me its identified with patriotism which is often portrayed as Not A Good Thing in england.
er -t hink thats it!
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by Zipporah:
I just dislike the way "British" and "English" are used interchangeably as though the other nations didn't really exist, though admittedly it is getting a lot better now.
"The other nations"? Are Scotland and Wales nations? I know they have their own parliements now, but I had thought they were more like our state legislatures. Or do you mean in their own minds they are nations, but Westminster just hasn't recognized it yet?
Scotland and Wales are nations. Have been for hundreds of years.
In 1603 James VI and I took over as king of England as well as Scotland. Edward I of England had defeated the Welsh previously and killed off their rulers (13th/early14th C). Still separate parliaments in Scotland and England, but not a Welsh one.
In 1707 there was the Union of Parliaments when there was bribery of the Scots Lords and they sold Scotland to the English and the Parliaments were united. Been like that till recently, but now we have our Parliament (albeit minus a building) back.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
In 1998. a report was published that to call onesself English or to display the English flag was racist. On the day it was published black English athletes at the Commonwealth Games were proud to parade the same flag around the stadium on winning gold medals.
Through the 1980s and '90s use of the flag by organisations such as the National Front and the BNP had made the flag the preserve of the racists.
Now thanks to the athletes the flag has returned to the country.
It can only be good for the country when members of ethnic minority communities start flying the flag. As happened last St. Georges day.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Zipporah
Silent witness
# 3896
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheGreenT:
I will use British/English interchangeably when describing myself - simply as it makes no difference to me which I use.
Fair enough. You are English and British in the same way that I am Scottish and British. It's only when "England" is used to refer to the British Isles as a whole, or "Britain" is used to refer to England exclusively, that I get a little pissed off with it all.
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
"The other nations"? Are Scotland and Wales nations? I know they have their own parliements now, but I had thought they were more like our state legislatures. Or do you mean in their own minds they are nations, but Westminster just hasn't recognized it yet?
Scotland and Wales always were nations in their own right, as clarified by Daisymay above. Yes, we are all British. But Britain and the UK is made up of a number of nations, each with its own unique identity, working together.
There is the Union Flag and National Anthem, which are only supposed to be used to represent Britain as a whole. Each nation within the UK also has its own flag and national anthem. Scotland has its own education and legal system separate from England too - I'm not sure whether the same is true for Wales.
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Back after a lengthy absence - it's been too long ...
A ship in port is safe, but that is not what ships are for. sail out to sea and do new things. Grace Hopper
Posts: 1792 | From: a world of my own | Registered: Jan 2003
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
So, do you guys feel you're living in the same country, or three different countries?
Or is it like the mystery of the Holy Trinity?
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
Actually, I don't regard myself as British ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) My ethnicity would be Scots, Pictish, Viking etc...
My children are born and bred in England, are true Londoners, but are of even more mixed ethnic origin.. must be English because of supporting Arsenal, I suppose. But they are more "European" and "Asian" and "Sephardic" than "British".
Problem is, we all get "British" written in our passports, even when they are EU ones.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Off Centre View
Shipmate
# 4254
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Posted
Balaam, I'm really happy to see that a lot of this extremist "if-you-say-you-are-english-you-are-evil-racist" is exposed for the rubbish it is.
Back in the UK, I usually refer to myself as either British or English, though I am pro-European and consider myself a European as well. But which do I consider myself first as? Well, it differs from time to time.
Does being "English" make me automatically hate anyone? No, of course not. I have many close French and German friends, as well as friends who are not the same skin colour as me. As for the other nations of the United Kingdom I have no problems whatsoever with them or their feelings of being whatever they choose to be. The people who I have a problem with are those who use that choice to turn hatred toward me over things that had been done by people not even related to me years before. However I can understand the resentment over the imperialism of the past and can fully understand some of their urging for independence.
To further complicate things, I would not be considered as "just" English. I'm part Cornish (one of my Grandparents came from Bodmin) and and also part Scottish (my late great uncle gave me permission to wear a kilt of the clan if I so wished. Cameron if you were wondering).
At the moment I am living abroad and the Swedes here refer to me as an "engelskman" rather than britishman or any other titles. It is weird but now I feel consciously more English than I have done before, but I can't really express what that means very well. Perhaps people from other countries are best to identify what being "British" or "Welsh" etc really mean. Any suggestions?
Off-centre view
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Posts: 1685 | From: wherever I may wander | Registered: Mar 2003
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Off-centre view:
At the moment I am living abroad and the Swedes here refer to me as an "engelskman" rather than britishman or any other titles. It is weird but now I feel consciously more English than I have done before, but I can't really express what that means very well.
Yes - not uncommon in expatriates. People abroad do sometimes feel a stronger sense of national identity when they live in a foreign country.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
This is fascinating. I may have to overcome my fear of flying and come check this out.
I've been to Manhattan and I've been to L.A. and San Francisco -- opposite sides of a large continent, and very different from each other and from my neck of the woods, but still part of one country.
Maybe the fact that our history is shorter and nearly all of us are immigrants makes the difference.
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mrs whibley
Shipmate
# 4798
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Posted
I'm English and living in Scotland. Most of what I wanted to say has been said. This puzzled me though:
quote:
Each nation within the UK also has its own flag and national anthem
What's the English anthem, then? I hope its Jerusalem!
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I long for a faith that is gloriously treacherous - Mike Yaconelli
Posts: 942 | From: North Lincolnshire | Registered: Aug 2003
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrs whibley:
What's the English anthem, then?
"Swing Low, Sweet Chariot"? Is there an English national anthem ... and if not, why not?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Zipporah
Silent witness
# 3896
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Posted
Sorry Mrs Whibley, I thought England did have its own anthem. Can't think of any reason why there shouldn't be one.
Posts: 1792 | From: a world of my own | Registered: Jan 2003
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zipporah:
Sorry Mrs Whibley, I thought England did have its own anthem. Can't think of any reason why there shouldn't be one.
I think the Scots tend to think that "God save the Queen" is the English anthem because of the verse about the "perfidious Scots"...
I'd have thought maybe "Land of Hope and Glory"?
When I was young, the Scots national anthem was "Scots wha hae wi' Wallace bled" and now it's changed to "Flower o' Scotland". At one point, they even tried to have "Scotland the Brave".
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Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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coffee jim
Shipmate
# 3510
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JohnBoot:
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
So what holds you together besides Her Majesty?
Well, in the Six Counties' case, many thousands (I don't know the current number) of heavily-armed troops of occupation.
Hmmm... As an ex-pat Englishman living in Belfast (ever been there, John Boot?), I don't see squaddies on a daily basis. Numbers (which I, also, don't know) have been reduced markedly over the last few years.
Forget the kneejerk Brit-bashing. The fact is that the (narrow) majority of the NI population wants to be part of the UK, and many of them feel more British than Irish. The way they express it is frequently unpleasant and incoherent, but that doesn't mean it isn't valid.
As many on this thread have suggested, no-one really knows what 'Britishness' means. This is a
big problem for NI Unionists, particularly the younger generation. Although there's definitely a cultural divide between those who identify as Irish in the North and in the South, I'd hazard that it's not nearly as big as that between, say, a Union Jack waving Shankill teenager and your average yoof from Birmingham.
Posts: 367 | From: Belfast | Registered: Nov 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
It's simple really.
Britain is made up of England, Scotland and Wales.
Great Britain is England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.
The title page of my passport says:
'European Community
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.'
Which seems to indicate that Great Britain and Northern Ireland are two separate entities; Great Britain being Scotland, Wales, England (and the various islands?), and Northern Ireland being, well, out on its own, natch!
The National Anthem for Northern Ireland is 'God Save the Queen'. But nobody will be surprized to hear that a significant section of the community prefer 'The Soldier's Song'!
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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