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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: P**d off with God
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ChrisT
One of the Good Guys™
# 62
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Posted
I just had a reasonable conversation with a friend about anger/forgiveness/God and all that malarkey. His stance was that you can be righteously angry, as Jesus was, and that the response to any anger should be forgiveness. Of course some anger requires further action as well. But he said if you profess to be a Christian you should not be angry with God, or not for long. Why? Because God is perfect, therefore never does anything wrong, therefore we really have nothing to get angry with him about, and he therefore never needs to be forgiven for anything.
What do people think about the whole anger/forgiveness/God thing? I admit I am pretty narked with God and life in general at the moment.
[ 19. June 2003, 18:08: Message edited by: Erin ]
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Firmly on dry land
Posts: 6489 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: May 2001
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I seem to remember someone crying out 'My God, my God why have you forsaken me' which doesn't seem to be a classic expression of praise...
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
Hi Chris,
I think God wants us to vent our frustrations to Him. Think of the Psalmists who write, 'How long, O Lord!'
I think it's better to vent to God, 'I don't have joy unspeakable and full of glory right now! What's wrong?' Or, 'Jesus, you came to give us life in all its fullness, I'm not experiencing that! What's wrong?' than to bottle things up and get depressed, and pretend those Scriptures don't exist.
I call it 'being real with God.'
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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dolphy
Lady of Perpetual Responsiblity
# 862
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Posted
I have memories going through my mind of a song, I think it was by Leo Sayer, the words go something like this:
If there's a God up there in Heaven, maybe he has lost his touch, or maybe he's out to lunch.
This is certainly how I am feeling at the moment.
Hope this thread goes well ChrisT.
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Looking forward to my rock moving closer again.
Posts: 15134 | From: my camper van | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I'm sll for telling God exactly what I think/feel. It's not an honest relationship if I
don't.
Somewhere, I have a little book called, "May I Hate God?" I don't remember too much about it, but I think I found it helpful when I read it.
I read the story of a hospital chaplain, dealing with a teen who'd just lost his mom. The kid was quietly furious, and focused his glares on the crucifix on the wall. The wise chaplain said, "do whatever you need to do". The kid tore the crucifix from the wall and smashed it to bits on the floor. Then he collapsed in the chaplain's arms.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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J. J. Ramsey
Shipmate
# 1174
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Posted
On the one hand, it's horribly unhealthy--and unbibical--to hide anger toward God behind a mask of happy-clappy fake joy. On the other hand, to tell God that he messed up is more than a little absurd, as if one who is of finite mind has a better idea on how to run the universe than one of infinite wisdom. I think it's O.K. to be angry with God, but we need to realize the absurdity of our anger.
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I am a rationalist. Unfortunately, this doesn't actually make me rational.
Posts: 1490 | From: Tallmadge, OH | Registered: Aug 2001
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Who was it who said, 'You have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.'?
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Clay_Pigeon
Mathematics
# 2516
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Posted
I think ChristinaMarie put it best when she called it "Being honest with God."
Our emotions are wacky things, and they usually say as much about who we are as they do the environment we are in. As a result, someone can look at XYZ emotion s/he is feeling and conclude that (when you get down to it) it is not really justified.
But God just doesn't want communion with the parts of us that are objectively justified, or those parts that pass some sort of internal screening process. God wants our whole selves. If the emotions inside of us want to scream at God and challenge Him on something that has happened, then doing anything else is holding back from God.
Of course, it is possible that we allow our emotions to cause us to turn away from God, but that is a completely different issue that has more to do with closing yourself off than with being angry with God. Ironically, exactly the same closing happens when you try to put on a good face for God too.
-Troy
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THAT'S IT! NOW I'M PISSED!. You're so off my prayer list.
-Was Once Troy
Posts: 599 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Mar 2002
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisT:
But he said if you profess to be a Christian you should not be angry with God, or not for long. Why? Because God is perfect, therefore never does anything wrong, therefore we really have nothing to get angry with him about, and he therefore never needs to be forgiven for anything.
This would take a level of faith and spiritual maturity that seems almost impossible to attain. I'd say anyone who thinks they are able to walk out this directive is only denying their emotions.
We get angry at God because we have very limited understanding of His purpose and plans. The way I perceive and interpret the events of my life; not much sits well with me. I've been at odds with Him a lot -ranging from full blown anger, resentment, bitterness, on down to just plain annoyed.
The thing is, God can take our anger. He knows we don't understand and we misinterpret Him. He knows our moods and spiritual state even when we don't admit it. I trust He would prefer our honesty. Besides, if we stay angry and bitter at anyone or any situation for long (or forever) it hurts only us.
Although I know I'm supposed to trust that He always knows best - just yesterday I was ticked off because I had to spend the day in stress and expense because my plumbing froze during the bitter cold and snow. I couldn't see any redeeming quality whatsoever. How could that be part of a good plan for me?
If this seems like a trivial thing to be angry over, just know it used to be worse. To put it in perspective, I've recovered from being angry that I was ever born amd had such cruel parents, for example.
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
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zephirine of the roses
Soul of the rose
# 3323
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
I seem to remember someone crying out 'My God, my God why have you forsaken me' which doesn't seem to be a classic expression of praise...
yep, that and david's (the man after God's own heart) and jeremiah's rants and vents through psalms and lamentations. further investigation always uncovers a sparkling revelation waiting at the end of the story.
that's what i'm counting on. they call it faith, don't they?
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We are, each of us, angels with only one wing. And we can only fly embracing each other."
*~ Luciano De Crescenzo
Posts: 1756 | From: middle of an apple orchard in ny | Registered: Sep 2002
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seadog
Shipmate
# 2931
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Posted
I think God can handle a little anger directed His way. And since He knows you feel like that already, you might just as well get it off your chest. That's my justification, anyway.
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A good landing is a succession of errors rapidly corrected.
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
Yes...I think the problem is whaen we think that God is 'running the Universe' at all. I'm quite convinced that whilst we can look to Him for guidance,that he has left the everyday running of things very much in our hands...
Is that heretical?
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Merseymike:
Yes...I think the problem is whaen we think that God is 'running the Universe' at all. I'm quite convinced that whilst we can look to Him for guidance,that he has left the everyday running of things very much in our hands...
Is that heretical?
Well, that fits into why I'm left to fend for myself against the viciousness of Mother Nature. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
But I tend to agree with the OP to the extent that God is perfect and therefore nothing ever "goes wrong". If this is true, then the running of things can't really be left in our hands - even if it appears that this is the case.
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
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Aardvark
Shipmate
# 2295
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Posted
Struggling with this one at the moment - a specific prayer I prayed at the beginning of the year has gone unanswered. I'm waiting for direction and guidance, but none seems forthcoming. At the moment my prayers seem to consist of "Answer me you b******", even if I don't actually say it, that's what I feel. But I know that God is big enough and his love is robust enough to take it, just as I still love my 5 year old son when he's throwing a tantrum because he can't have what he wants right now.
Posts: 618 | From: just outside the M25 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Rowen
Shipmate
# 1194
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Posted
As a hospital chaplain, I advise my patients to read the psalms over and over.... like when their baby dies in dreadful circumstances, or they are in their 7 th admnittance to the pysch ward or whatever.
"Get the anger out" I tell them. "God is big enough to handle it, and he won't stop listening or loving"
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"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...
Posts: 4897 | From: Somewhere cold in Victoria, Australia | Registered: Aug 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
Nothing really goes wrong.....I find that hard to agree with. I think theres plenty which goes wrong, and I neither blame nor account God for those things. Neither do I automatically account to Him things that go 'right'.
I find it difficult to conceive of a God who actively intervenes in the world in any sort of directive sense.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
I seem to remember someone crying out 'My God, my God why have you forsaken me' which doesn't seem to be a classic expression of praise...
Actually, it *is* a classic expression. remember that Jesus was speaking from and to an experience where you just had to give the first line of the reference, and the crowd knew what you were talking about. It is not uncommon for certain folks to cite the "my God" line as evidence that Jesus was rebelling or angry. But if you read Psalm 22 you see why he used that reference:
quote:
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
It is a debate whether Jesus was referring to the whole of psalm 22 or simply to the first verse I think the balance of debate (ok about 10 years ago) favoured only the first verse.
When I saw the title of this thread i thought ah this will sonn be in Hell but obviously not.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271
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Posted
Agreed with everything above: hiding our real emotions and pretending is a great curse within the stream of Christianity I am from, and sometimes people get the idea they need to just be happy all the time and if they're not it's a sin. (Yes, you guessed it. I am a charismatic.) But as has been pointed out, the Psalms are so full of anger towards God. Jesus got angry, and disppointed, and frightened. So, the Holy Spirit inspired people to write angry stuff to God, and the 2nd person of the Trinity felt all those emotions too. If we're pissed off we're in good company.
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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/
Posts: 2126 | From: North and South Kensington | Registered: Feb 2002
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ChrisT
One of the Good Guys™
# 62
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Posted
So it's OK to be angry at/with God. Thank crunchie for that! Should it last though? I would love for one day this cloud to lift and for me to say "Hallelujah, I see now that all that darkness I lived in for years has led me to a higher place. Thank the Lord that I went through that". It dosn't feel like that is going to happen, and there are very practical reasons why I beleive not.
This is what my church background would have me believe, hope for, and trust in. But (and I have heard all the platitudes before, well meant though they are) should there come a point when I just have to accept what is happening and give up the anger? And is it the same for both God and others.
Basically, how/why/when should you stay angry?
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Firmly on dry land
Posts: 6489 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: May 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
On the one hand, it's horribly unhealthy--and unbibical--to hide anger toward God behind a mask of happy-clappy fake joy. On the other hand, to tell God that he messed up is more than a little absurd, as if one who is of finite mind has a better idea on how to run the universe than one of infinite wisdom. I think it's O.K. to be angry with God, but we need to realize the absurdity of our anger.
I don't think it is absurd at all. You see, we're not Vulcans who only operate from Logic. We have strong emotions too, and many times these emotions need to be expressed. When I say to God, 'Why have you abandoned me!?' I'm not being literal, I'm expressing how I feel.
In Counselling, it is recognised that much of the emotional healing comes from the RELATIONSHIP of the Counsellor and Counsellee, rather than the logical psychology.
RELATIONSHIPS require that we express our hurt feelings from time to time.
If we vent our honest feelings to God, seeking answers, then our circumstances may or may not change, but our perceptions can. I have a strong belief that in hard times, God is trying to teach us something, He's encouraging us to grow and mature, spiritually.
Scripture states that Jesus was made perfect through His sufferings. If Jesus needed to suffer to attain perfection, well, we do too. I believe God is more concerned with our spiritual growth and eventual maturity, than giving us an easy life. As Paul wrote, the chastening of the Lord is grievous while it's happening, but it yields wonderful results.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Obnoxious Snob
Arch-Deacon
# 982
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Posted
Every-time my mother-in-law speaks haltingly of losing her entire family in the Holocaust and therefore, half of my children's lineage and history having been wiped out, I wonder, really wonder whether real, pain-filled human anger is addressed to God, or just an empty void and all our prayers, all our worship is a cloak to hide a desperate indifference at the heart of the Universe. I think Jesus' cry of desolation was just that-desolation and something of the illusion of God's omnipotence died that day on the Cross.
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'The best thing we can do is to make wherever we're lost in Look as much like home as we can'
Christopher Fry
Posts: 889 | From: Kernow | Registered: Jul 2001
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LucyH
Shipmate
# 3570
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Posted
Adrian Plass writes really helpfully about hs in When you walk and the second of his diaries. I once got [actually more than once] furious with god about the awful fate of some missionaries. After a couple of days the following occurred to me. awful things have always happened to good people and if I were going to take issue about that and walk away I could have not bothered to become a christian in the first place.And then that any compassion I have probably comes from Him.
I have once had spectacular answer to prayer that was more of a tantrum than a prayer and once had the beginings of an anwer about a prayer that was so completely unanswered that I thought I couldnt go on with my faith.........Honesty is always the best policy I'm sure.
see also' when i became a christian' by Plass which is available on the web. Assuring you all of my prayers Lucy
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271
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Posted
It could have stood for peed off?
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisT:
So it's OK to be angry at/with God. Thank crunchie for that! Should it last though? I would love for one day this cloud to lift and for me to say "Hallelujah, I see now that all that darkness I lived in for years has led me to a higher place. Thank the Lord that I went through that". It dosn't feel like that is going to happen, and there are very practical reasons why I beleive not.
<snip>
Basically, how/why/when should you stay angry?
I believe passionately in the parting of the clouds one day and so on. But my (admittedly not huge) experience has been times of parted clouds and then they cover over again when something else hits the fan. Also, sometimes when I think of Job getting back so much stuff after his suffering I want to know why we still wasn't pissed cos of what he had to go through on the way just to prove a point for God!
As for staying angry I guess even in the midst of the pain it's good to be vulnerable to God and open to his love/healing and so on, and we should be actively seeking to work through our pain or it will consume us. However we shouldn't beat ourselves up if we stay angry as we're not going to be perfect til heaven anyway... I expect when I die there'll still be pain, anger, loneliness and loss in my heart that hasn't been dealt with.
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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/
Posts: 2126 | From: North and South Kensington | Registered: Feb 2002
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
Going back to the first few posts, it’s easy to say we 'shouldn’t' express anger with God (implying that we 'should' be always content and thankful with our lot), but this is the real world. Sh*t happens. I know people are well-meaning and that what they want is for us to be happy and secure in our faith, but it seems to me that some people feel very threatened by honest expressions of hurt or anger. I think the important thing for those of us either going through crappy circumstances, or trying to support and be there for others, is to give space and time for the hurt to be brought out into the open. A friend of mine, many years ago, expressed a lot of doubt and hurt with God, but due to the fact that many of us couldn’t handle it he denied his doubts and spent a lot of time pretending everything was hunky-dory. But eventually he couldn’t deny it any more and has ended up totally rejecting Christianity. If we’d been mature enough then to let him express his hurt and anger, and not just tried to explain it away with trite answers because we couldn’t handle his questions, maybe things would have worked out differently.
On the radio this morning I heard an interview with the minister of the church that the policeman who was murdered in Manchester the other week attended. They were talking about the policeman’s father’s expression of forgiveness towards the murderer, and his prayer that he will find forgiveness in God, and the minister was saying that when he’d been asked by the press this week 'should the church forgive?' he’d really struggled to answer. He also said that, whilst being really moved by the father’s forgiveness, he was working alongside many people who were struggling to come to that conclusion so quickly, if at all, and that it was not his job to force them to express something that they don’t yet (and may not ever) feel or believe, but help them to work through the anger and pain in their own time. I was really pleased to see that there are still sensitive, realistic people like that working in the church, sometimes I have wondered where they’ve all gone.
I wish there was an easy answer to the 'how long' question - maybe next week, maybe not this side of heaven (as Sean just put it). But Chris I know that in this and other threads you've expressed that despite current circumstances you're questioning your faith more than ever which to me, in itself, is a sign of hope.
I've just reread that last sentence and am now worried that I sound really patronising and happy clappy - I'll keep it in as I mean it, but Chris I never meant to patronise ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I can't help thinking that coming to a "Praise the Lord I'm so pleased I just went through all that" isn't particularly realistic (this isn't aimed at Chris by the way, just some more random thoughts for general consumption) - but I do think that God would be happy enough with a "I don't know why all that had to happen, I don't understand it and wish I hadn't had to go through it, but at least I'm still here and still trying to hang on to you God".
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
Sorry for the double post.
quote:
Originally posted by Sean D:
...sometimes when I think of Job getting back so much stuff after his suffering I want to know why we still wasn't pissed cos of what he had to go through on the way just to prove a point for God!
I found Philip Yancey's "Disappointment with God" (ISBN 0-310-51781-8, publ. Zondervan) really helpful on this one. Doesn't give all the answers, but asks helpful questions which made sense to me.
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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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J. J. Ramsey
Shipmate
# 1174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:
quote:
Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
On the one hand, it's horribly unhealthy--and unbibical--to hide anger toward God behind a mask of happy-clappy fake joy. On the other hand, to tell God that he messed up is more than a little absurd, as if one who is of finite mind has a better idea on how to run the universe than one of infinite wisdom. I think it's O.K. to be angry with God, but we need to realize the absurdity of our anger.
I don't think it is absurd at all. You see, we're not Vulcans who only operate from Logic. We have strong emotions too, and many times these emotions need to be expressed.
Just because one's emotions are strong and need to be faced does not mean that they are not absurd. It just means that it is too dangerous to leave the emotions bottled up. The absurdity is still there.
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I am a rationalist. Unfortunately, this doesn't actually make me rational.
Posts: 1490 | From: Tallmadge, OH | Registered: Aug 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
ok:
You are angry at God.
God is omniscient.
So God knows you are angry.
So you stuff it down? Useless. The tone of the posts seems to reflect the logic of this.
How to get angry? Prayer("sod you, god" etc. again, there's no vile thought you can have that God is not aware of, so cut loose) and dialogue with a good listener. You know the kind of person I mean. The kind that won't try to talk you out of it or explain it away, they just listen. Golden Key's chaplain--Phew. What a good man.By sacrificing an image of Christ, he became Christ.
How long? Till you get to the bottom of it.
Anger is a grief stage. Not too long ago, I had a bout of anger teased out of me in therapy, and it was horrifying to me. It wasn't just feeilng mad, it was this rage that seemed to come up from my feet and take over; there seemed to be no room for anything in me but anger. Frightening as hell.But it was there, and I wasn't admitting it, and it was disrupting my sleep and tearing holes in my stomach and causing much worse problems than if I had simply admitted to it.
As to the absurdity (seeing your anger as absurd): Once the anger has waned and perspective returns, this might be possible. However, expecting someone to achieve that while they're in the anger might be too much.
Ok, that leads to this question: How does (or how should) the average Christian respond to expressions of anger at God?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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MCC
Shipmate
# 3137
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Posted
I certainly agree that I can be angry with God, or express my anger at him. Having been through therapy I believe this is important.
I would like to personalise this: through recent problems it has not been easy, and at times I screamed at God asking what I should do, and how I was supposed to deal with hings. It was cathartic, and slowly I am seeing how my relationship with God is changing for the better, and He didn't seem to mind my anger.
Honesty with God is essential.
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mcc____
Posts: 419 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2002
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Wairua
Shipmate
# 3912
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Posted
quote:
I think theres plenty which goes wrong, and I neither blame nor account God for those things. Neither do I automatically account to Him things that go 'right'.
I find it difficult to conceive of a God who actively intervenes in the world in any sort of directive sense.
I'd tend to agree with MerseyMike about this.
But in my experience this has meant that after becoming hurt, upset, angry and disillusioned I have quickly given up on questioning God about it. And perhaps even on God. I struggle to keep that connection. Probably because of this personal bias I think anger - however long it goes on - is healthy in that it is dealing honestly with the matters at hand and keeping the relationship open (even if painfully). Who can say if continuing to struggle with God will ever change things. Perhaps it will be a lifelong struggle but who knows.
I've certainly found forgiveness to be a process rather than something that you just do and then get on with life. When I say I forgive someone who has done real and lasting damage the work isn't done then. That is just a commitment to walk that path. Perhaps I'll always be walking it.
I've found the other posts on this thread thoughtful and valuable. Thanks.
Posts: 709 | From: aotearoa | Registered: Jan 2003
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I'm not sure that it *is* absurd to be angry with God.
We live in a rough world. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif) We may find some reason to believe in a deity, who may be involved with us, for good or ill. That does not change the fact that sh*t happens.
If God did create us, then She's responsible for all the potential fallout from that--and prayer's the complaint box!
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Golden key, that's sig worthy!
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mother hubbard
Shipmate
# 640
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Posted
If I’m not allowed to rant and rave at God, then I'm not playing! Anger, rage, fury, disappointment, fear, and pain are as much a part of who I am as laughter, cuddles and love. Given that I have a teenage daughter and one who’s nearly a teenager , a husband who is about as much use as… ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) .well, chose one from the old thread (but make it a rude one!) …. I have cr*p up to my eyeballs and more backing up waiting for its turn, perhaps the anger & stuff makes up more of who I am.
BUT.
IF God is our heavenly parent, all-knowing… la-di-da…
THEN like I love my girls even after what they just managed to do,
SO God still loves me when I throw a paddy
That’s my logic anyhow
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you realise, of course, that now i;ve posted on youir thread, it will automatically sink without a trace?
Posts: 293 | From: essex | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474
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Posted
I think it's OK to say to God, "I feel angry", "I feel confused" or even "I think you've really let me down" and words to such effect. I'd even go so far to say that God won't mind you swearing a bit, as long as it's not directed at him, but more at the situation. I'm sure he'll understand.
I'm not sure it's OK to call God names or swear at God, though. Jesus taught us to respect the name of God: "Hallowed be Thy name". Still, I think it's important to respect other people, too, so I could be in a minority.
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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably
Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002
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ChrisT
One of the Good Guys™
# 62
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Lass
<snip>A friend of mine, many years ago, expressed a lot of doubt and hurt with God, but due to the fact that many of us couldn’t handle it he denied his doubts and spent a lot of time pretending everything was hunky-dory. But eventually he couldn’t deny it any more and has ended up totally rejecting Christianity. If we’d been mature enough then to let him express his hurt and anger, and not just tried to explain it away with trite answers because we couldn’t handle his questions, maybe things would have worked out differently.</snip>
Good grief, have I seen this happen any number of times. And known it personally too. Christians can be worse than useless when it comes to *real* situations and questions. They just want to think everything is alright. It is a mark of maturity to allow others to question you and your beliefs. Hell, you may even be wrong sometimes - I know I frequently am.
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
I'm not sure it's OK to call God names or swear at God, though. Jesus taught us to respect the name of God: "Hallowed be Thy name". Still, I think it's important to respect other people, too, so I could be in a minority.
I would argue that it is more respectful to actually express what you are feeling than to pretty it up with niceties and soft words. Over the last year I have used some of the worst language of my life, directed at God. I'm not proud or happy with that - but as he knows where I'm coming from anyway does it matter? If that stuff is in me I would rather get it out than leave it festering.
As to Kellys point, how shoud we respond to expressions of anger at God, I'm not sure. At some point there must come a releasing of that anger, just as there must in earthly relationships. That will normally involve forgiveness, and some kind of reconciliation. [tangent]I hate and detest that word intensely.[/tangent] When and how that happens is down to the individual. In my own experience I can normally tell when I have let things go on too far, if I'm honest with myself. I guess I have (and still do in some ways) hold onto anger as it is empowering and intoxicating. For one thing it takes me a little way out of my situation, allowing me to transcend the pain by lashing back. For another it justifies my position, whereas perhaps I need to sometimes hold my hands up and say "I'm guilty". And for me it is (dangerously) a catalyst - for good or bad. I am at the moment struggling with the good and bad motivations that are coming out of my anger, frustration, dissapointment and hurt. But heck, I'd rather do something and make a mistake than do nothing and never knowing one way or another. So, I did something, and it failed. I'm not happy about it, it's not what I wanted, but at least I know now.
And that brings anger all of it's own. Vicious circle here we come.
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Firmly on dry land
Posts: 6489 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: May 2001
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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474
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Posted
quote:
I would argue that it is more respectful to actually express what you are feeling than to pretty it up with niceties and soft words.
Well, Chris, I agree we should be honest with God. Perhaps what are "niceties and soft words" to you are angry words to me, so perhaps it's not for me to say. I remain uncomfortable with hurling verbal abuse at God, but if you think it anyway I suppose there's not much difference in saying it.
quote:
Over the last year I have used some of the worst language of my life, directed at God. I'm not proud or happy with that - but as he knows where I'm coming from anyway does it matter? If that stuff is in me I would rather get it out than leave it festering.
Chris, I certainly agree you should let it out rather than let it fester. I just wonder if you vent your spleen too enthusiastically it could have a detrimental effect. Maybe I'm just repressed, but I think there is a danger in expressing your anger too violently. For a start you are shifting all the blame onto God, aren't you? I think it's important to accept our part of the blame. If you call God a load of nasty names doesn't that colour the way you see God? I should think it's also possible to get addicted to the feelings of strong anger.
However, I am not you and I haven't had your experiences, so I could be wrong.
Like all things, I think it is a matter of balance. We should feel able to express our feelings to God, but there are limist on how far we should go in doing that. There is a need for some self-control. On the other hand if we accidentally 'lose it', then like all sins, God will forgive us when we acknowledge it was wrong and say sorry.
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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably
Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271
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Posted
Kelly, you put that really well.
(About time I said something nice to you anyway.)
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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/
Posts: 2126 | From: North and South Kensington | Registered: Feb 2002
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Smudgie
Ship's Barnacle
# 2716
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Posted
I suppose it depends partly on your use of swearing generally. Some people don't swear at all or only in extremes of circumstance, some as a habit, and most people at some point of the continuum in between. I come in the first catagory, am made uncomfortable by the latter, but that's me and the way I have been brought up and am. I think to swear at God because it is just your habitual way of talking does show disrespect - just as it does when you use that sort of language to someone else simply for the sake of it. To swear at God because it is the only way of expressing the tensed up feeling - why, I'm sure God is big enough to see past the words and into the heart. And better to shout, scream and swear at Him than not to talk at all.
Expressing your anger and confusion to God is all part of communication. Yes, maybe it can become a habit and it needs to be balanced by listening too. But no true relationship with God can exist unless you try to be totally honest with Him.
I find it helpful to think of my relationship with my kids. They have a lot in life to be angry about, being adopted. Part of my role as their adopted parent is to expect that and to let them know it's OK. The likelihood is that I will be the brunt of their anger. I know that, and am prepared for that (though I must say I am not looking forward to it over much!) -if I can do it, weak as I am, how much more can God do it? I want my kids to express their anger and not bottle it, how much more must God want us to do that too?
Also thinking of my Smudgelets. When things go wrong for them (often by their own doing) or they get told off or punished, they react in totally different ways. One might cry a little, but generally shrugs his shoulders and goes along with things. The other rants and raves and has massive tantrums which take all my energy to cope with. But I know which one has taken in the situation most, and I also know which one will later come and just throw his arms round me for a cuddle. I may find the tantrums harder to cope with, but I think they are healthier than the bland acceptance.
I'm generally fairly temperate, maybe even too much so, but I have no problems at all with yelling and even once or twice swearing at God, just because I know how much He loves me.
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Miss you, Erin.
Posts: 14382 | From: Under the duvet | Registered: Apr 2002
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ChrisT
One of the Good Guys™
# 62
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Posted
Hmm, yes I suppose there is a point at which anger becomes destructive. I'm not sure whether I have reached that point. One hole in a door doesn't count for much in the grand scheme of things, does it? And after years of being anti-anything that I was told was 'wrong' (like swearing) maybe I'm hitting back. The problem with hitting back is you inevitably end up hitting harder.
I don't know others situations, and thank God you don't know mine, but we all deal with things in different ways. Your way is not mine, and mine is not yours. We may not agree with each other, bt we try to get along and understand where the other is coming from.
One thing we have all agreed about in the course of this thread is that anger needs to be expressed if it is to be resolved. Suppressing emotions is untimately destructive, inhibiting and numbing. I don't want to be like that - whether or not I believe there is something better in the future for me. So I am making sure I don't brush anything under the carpet.
This means that I end up going over the same ground a lot, each time (hopefully) sorting out a little more, although it must bore the pants off people I talk to. It also means being honest with myself about what I am feeling. And, of course, tied in with this it means the occasional - or even uite regular - rant at God.
One of the things I like about God is that I can say this awful stuff to him, blame him for everything, even tell him I want nothing to do with him, but he never changes. I've never had a human relationship that will put up with me, but he does. What can I say to that? Anger can't last, even if the situation does.
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Firmly on dry land
Posts: 6489 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: May 2001
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MCC
Shipmate
# 3137
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Posted
I am increasingly aware as I get older that Basil Fawlty , who when I was young seemed ridiculous, mirrors my experience!
Do people remember him clenching his fist, threatening the skies, and shouting "THANKYOU GOD" when yet another thing went wrong.
More seriously, the expression of anger is natural, and safer if directed at God than destructively at other humans (I believe it can be creative with others though!). If it is part of one's working through something painful or infuriating, and as humans many of us go through these at times in our lives, then it is beneficial, imo. If it is just part of one's agrressive, rather than assertive, insistence that one has the right to be angry but nothing else, then it has its dangers- just as it does in any form of life.
I have recently called God a "Bxxxxxd", OK sorry if this offends anyone- I can understand your point. But I would say this, it was in a moment of pain, and honest rather than repressed.
Karan3, thanks for your comments, May I make just one comment. The inclusion of the word "should" in your post is one that I think could be reviewed, "shoulds" are dangerous in my opinion, capable of causing unnecessary shame, unhealthy guilt etc. At the end of the day, let's all look for what enhances life.
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mcc____
Posts: 419 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2002
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wairua:
I've certainly found forgiveness to be a process rather than something that you just do and then get on with life. When I say I forgive someone who has done real and lasting damage the work isn't done then. That is just a commitment to walk that path. Perhaps I'll always be walking it.
That is so true, and so helpful. Early on in my Christian experience issues such as forgiveness were presented as essentially black and white - say the word, and everything will be OK kind of thing - but the older I get (like lots of us here I suspect) I'm spending sooooo much more time in the shades of grey areas. Forgiveness came home to me this weekend with a jolt - at a party on Saturday and then again at church on Sunday I bumped into a person who I'd not seen for probably 5 years or so but who had really hurt and offended me several years ago, and I simply could not bring myself to say hello, I just had to walk off because I just couldn't handle the strength of my feelings of anger and hurt. Talking to God afterwards about it, all I could manage was "well I know I should forgive, and in fact deep down I want to, but right now I still can't - please help me." As Wairua said, it's a commitment to walking a path, a process not an instant fix. And learning the hard way, through watching my friend reject Christianity (as mentioned before), I'm determined not to make the same mistake again of expecting somebody to suppress their doubts just because they think it will make me (or "the church") feel better.
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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474
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Posted
Thank you for your comment MCC. As a rule I agree that should shouldn't be used to induce guilt etc. I'm sure from time to time I do use it accidentally in a way that could induce a person to feel guilt or whatever, should they be in the wrong frame of mind. However, having re-read my posts I can't see that the use of the word is likely to have such an effect in the context in which it is used. Perhaps you shouldn't have said that??? I could be feeling terrribly guilty now and possibly wholly ashamed ![[Embarrassed]](icon_redface.gif) , too!!!!!!!!!!!!
But I'm not ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I don't think you should never use should, that would be far too pc for my liking - just use it thoughtfully.
Oh and if I can make one comment, the name is Karin - not Karan.
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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably
Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002
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J. J. Ramsey
Shipmate
# 1174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
I just wonder if you vent your spleen too enthusiastically it could have a detrimental effect. Maybe I'm just repressed, but I think there is a danger in expressing your anger too violently.
-- snip --
I should think it's also possible to get addicted to the feelings of strong anger.
Unfortunately, it is true. The emotional model where bottled-up feelings that need to be let out in an act of catharsis isn't quite correct. Violently expressing our anger can make us even more angry, in spite of the popular wisdom to the contrary.
I am not a psychiatrist (which may not be that much of a liability ), but I suspect the reason that letting it out can be healthy at all is because trying to tell yourself that you are not angry is like trying to tell yourself to not think of pink elephants; one just thinks of one's anger (or pink elephants) all the more, thus getting angrier. It's less about getting it out than it is about being honest with oneself and getting back to not focusing on the anger.
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I am a rationalist. Unfortunately, this doesn't actually make me rational.
Posts: 1490 | From: Tallmadge, OH | Registered: Aug 2001
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Nanny Ogg
Ship's cushion
# 1176
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Posted
Thank you so much ChrisT for starting this thread. I'd been thinking of doing so myself recently but chickened out.
I'm also P****d off with God - for different reasons (obviously) - and I'm also p****d off with those well meaning Christians who come out with all the platitudes and well rehearsed lines and bible verses in an attempt to make you feel better (or even point the finger at you for being the cause of life being cr*p.
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisT:
So it's OK to be angry at/with God. Thank crunchie for that! Should it last though? I would love for one day this cloud to lift and for me to say "Hallelujah, I see now that all that darkness I lived in for years has led me to a higher place. Thank the Lord that I went through that". It dosn't feel like that is going to happen, and there are very practical reasons why I beleive not.
I wish I could believe that – I really do. I’m sick to the back teeth of people saying that things will be better when we get to heaven and that as Christians we just have to experience hell for only a minute part of eternity.
What I’d like to know is why some people appear to have all the blessings now, here on earth Christian or not; and others of us experience a never ending stream of trials and traumas with no apparent let up.
In my situation I am close to saying “to hell with it all”. If other people can have a good life now – then I’d like some of that RIGHT THIS MINUTE, not sometime in the future when I’m dead.
quote:
should there come a point when I just have to accept what is happening and give up the anger? And is it the same for both God and others.
Basically, how/why/when should you stay angry?
There gets to be a point where you get tired of being angry. Sick and tired of crying out night after night to what appears to be a brick wall. Sick and tired of prayer requests being answered with more problems and crises on your doorstep to the point that you realt cannot take any more.
In my case I’m sick of hearing the platitudes that “God is listening” and “God is in control”. I want some action NOW.
And if this sounds as if I’m a spoilt child crying because God hasn’t done things instantly – things have been sh1t for 5 years and counting…
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisT:
As to Kellys point, how should we respond to expressions of anger at God, I'm not sure. At some point there must come a releasing of that anger, just as there must in earthly relationships. That will normally involve forgiveness, and some kind of reconciliation.
Does that mean that we should forgive God for the bad times He is making us endure when we know that He has the power to turn things around in an instant?
Why should we ask forgiveness from a God that does not appear to be there or is too busy to care?
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
Like all things, I think it is a matter of balance. We should feel able to express our feelings to God, but there are limits on how far we should go in doing that. There is a need for some self-control. On the other hand if we accidentally 'lose it', then like all sins, God will forgive us when we acknowledge it was wrong and say sorry.
Ah – so getting angry with God is a sin even though we’re the ones who are being “sinned” against by a God who deliberately choses to curse our lives rather than bless us.
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisT:
One of the things I like about God is that I can say this awful stuff to him, blame him for everything, even tell him I want nothing to do with him, but he never changes. I've never had a human relationship that will put up with me, but he does. What can I say to that? Anger can't last, even if the situation does.
Doesn’t God change? In my experience I’ve seen God turn from answering prayers to turning a deaf ear. From God providing to God taking away. From God being there to me just talking to the air.
I’ve heard it said that God knows the plans for us – “plans to prosper you and not to harm you; plans to give you hope and a future.” But in my experience this has not been the case.
Just as I think God is honouring his part the sh1t hits the proverbial fan again.
Yes I am angry – and hurt. I would like an end to all problems that seem to hit me when I’m down. I’d like a few blessings for a change.
But – and this is the really painful bit – I feel that God isn’t letting go of me and I’ve nowhere to run. All I can do is get angry whilst I wait for things to change. And that hurts because I then have no freedom to live. If I felt that I had responsibility for my life I could blame myself for all that goes wrong and I would probably feel that I should ask God for forgiveness. The way it stands at the moment I'm a victim of continued circumstance created by others.
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Buy me a beer and I'm you friend forever
Posts: 4137 | From: Away with the fairies | Registered: Aug 2001
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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474
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Posted
Nanny,
It is hard to understand why certain things happen and why some people seem to have more than their fair share of "bad luck" , but I'm pretty sure God isn't "cursing" your life. I know God has "the power to turn things around in an instant" in theory, but he just doesn't work like that.
I think it is pretty certain that God loves you and wants the best for you, but your circumstances and the people around you or what ever are not helping your situation. I also think it is safe to say that Jesus is there in the middle of it all with you, but it's hard for you to see him just now. He wants to put his arm round you to comfort you. He weeps with you and he wants you to let him walk alongside you and help you along the way.
I'm not suggesting you feel guilty about being angry with God, but if you were angry with a friend wouldn't you say sorry afterwards?
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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably
Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002
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McChicken
Shipmate
# 2555
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Posted
Altho I have only really skimmed the responses in this thread I think they have been honest, thoughtful, encouraging and helpful.
I left my old church very very angry and part (a lot?) of that anger spilled over onto God. From that experience I would agree that you need to let go of your anger. I would agree, but I wouldn't say I have done it.
Also I agree that you can be angry at God, and I strongly resented those people who told me 'God is God' as if that was an answer. If God is into 'relationship' with us, then I think the only way we can understand that relationship is in human terms and, for me, God is at the stage where he needs to earn my trust again. (Something my mother can't quite understand.)
I wrote this poem a couple of years ago to ask one simple question: Why can't God take the blame? As always, hope it helps.
_Taking the Blame_
Why can’t God take the blame?
It’s always our fault
our problem
our responsibility.
"You gotta have faith (a-faith-a-faith).
You gotta have faith."
"Just believe" (they say)
"and everything will be fine."
Life doesn’t work that way
Life isn’t fair
"Life is pain, Highness.
Anyone who says otherwise
is trying to sell you something."
Where is God
in the darkness of the night?
Where is God
in the loneliness of misery?
Where is God
and why should I forgive Him?
"God is God is God"
"Curse God and die"
Sweet oblivion?
"Curse God and die"
but question and understand.
"God is God - don’t blame Him"
"God is God - don’t question"
like a Cop in the Sky
like a vindictive Father-figure.
If God is God,
He can take the questions.
If God is God,
He can handle the blame.
Why can’t God take the blame?
Where is God when it hurts?
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"We're not playing tiddly-winks here mate."
"While the opposite of a true statement is a false statement, the opposite of a profound truth can be another profound truth."
Posts: 634 | From: Ko Ngati Pakeha raua ko Ngai Tahu ahau | Registered: Mar 2002
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Nanny Ogg
Ship's cushion
# 1176
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
It is hard to understand why certain things happen and why some people seem to have more than their fair share of "bad luck" , but I'm pretty sure God isn't "cursing" your life. I know God has "the power to turn things around in an instant" in theory, but he just doesn't work like that.
Why not - he does for other people? What makes it so different in my case?
quote:
I think it is pretty certain that God loves you and wants the best for you, but your circumstances and the people around you or what ever are not helping your situation. I also think it is safe to say that Jesus is there in the middle of it all with you, but it's hard for you to see him just now. He wants to put his arm round you to comfort you. He weeps with you and he wants you to let him walk alongside you and help you along the way.
That's just the sweet sanctimonious sentiment that gets to me. If Jesus/God was really hear with those who hurt he'd/they'd want to change the situation.
quote:
I'm not suggesting you feel guilty about being angry with God, but if you were angry with a friend wouldn't you say sorry afterwards?
If a friend who had done me wrong I'd expect them to apologise and I'd accept their apology.
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Buy me a beer and I'm you friend forever
Posts: 4137 | From: Away with the fairies | Registered: Aug 2001
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