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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Being niggardly with language
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
I thought the Clarkson story was utterly bizarre. If the BBC had sacked him, that would be grounds for tearing up my license. And that bit of the film wasn't actually shown!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
There are many alternates to the word nigger for currently in use, alternates for all the words or, gasp not using the rhyme at all.
Until threads like this one, I wouldn't have known any alternative word for nigger in that rhyme.
And *gasp* exactly what else besides Eeny Meeny Miny Moe comes to mind for choosing between several options randomly on the spot? Seriously, I want to know. What would you do if someone said 'pick one'?
Circus thread
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
The reference to "cunctator" upthread is provocative, because it suggests Fabius Cunctator, which suggests Hannibal, which suggests Hannibal the Cannibal, which suggests cannibalism, of which some subaltern groups have been falsely accused in an attempt to denigrate (!) them.
And think of "The cat sat on the mat". We all know that "cat" was a derogatory term for gays. So here, we have more denigration of gays. Lazy, because they sat and did not do anything. Elitist, because rather than just sit on floorboards, they had to sit on a mat.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
quote:
Yeah, seeing it was only the once.
I'm well aware of his history. That doesn't mean it's justified to jump on him on every occasion. That's rather like police going around to hassle the ex-cons every time there's a crime committed.
But in this case he did it this time and every time. So it is more like the cops going to hassle an ex-con every time he actually committed a crime.
On the telly and everything.
He says he tried to avoid saying the word as best he could to avoid that version being broadcast. Oh, wait, except not filming it in the first. There are many alternates to the word nigger for currently in use, alternates for all the words or, gasp not using the rhyme at all.
But if we follow this list (and this line of argument) we're comparing use of the word 'nigger' with i) smoking a pipe and ii) having an alcoholic drink while off-road driving. Are we sure that's wise?
[ 04. May 2014, 08:56: Message edited by: Anglican't ]
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I thought the Clarkson story was utterly bizarre. If the BBC had sacked him, that would be grounds for tearing up my license. And that bit of the film wasn't actually shown!
It wasn't included in the show, no. So sacking him for it would be inappropriate. Warning him is not, IMO, due to his track record. The bizarre bit is him muttering. If one has the presence of mind to mutter, one has the presence of mind to substitute.
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
But if we follow this list (and this line of argument) we're comparing use of the word 'nigger' with i) smoking a pipe and ii) having an alcoholic drink while off-road driving. Are we sure that's wise?
No, no, no, dear Anglican't. orfeo employed a device known as an analogy. And I responded in kind. He was not actually calling the incident a crime.
Harrumph, the state of British education these days.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
My parents taught me "catch a tiger by the toe."
I learned 'catch a Chinaman'. I also learned a very revolting anti-Chinese rhyme where the context made it clear that 'Chinaman' was the original word.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
But if we follow this list (and this line of argument) we're comparing use of the word 'nigger' with i) smoking a pipe and ii) having an alcoholic drink while off-road driving. Are we sure that's wise?
No, no, no, dear Anglican't. orfeo employed a device known as an analogy. And I responded in kind.
I know what an analogy but thank you for the Wikipedia link nonetheless. My query was whether the analogy you were drawing was an apt one, considering the seriousness with which use of the word 'nigger' is generally regarded.
quote:
He was not actually calling the incident a crime.
No, he wasn't. And so far as I know, driving across the Arctic ice with a gin and tonic in hand isn't a crime either.
What I was trying to drive at (no pun intended) is that if 'nigger' is thought of as the worst term of racial abuse imaginable, then it doesn't stand comparison with the other items in your link, which seem much, much milder to me. Anyway, wasn't a major point I was making.
quote:
Harrumph, the state of British education these days.
The comprehensive school system has a lot to answer for. Hopefully its days are numbered.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And *gasp* exactly what else besides Eeny Meeny Miny Moe comes to mind for choosing between several options randomly on the spot? Seriously, I want to know. What would you do if someone said 'pick one'?
Well, as CK's circus thread is demonstrating, their are several options. Which would I use? I don't know, so I'd have to flip a coin to decide.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Well, as CK's circus thread is demonstrating, their are several options. Which would I use? I don't know, so I'd have to flip a coin to decide.
Yes, several options exist, but each individual person has more or less one rhyme that was/is standard.
For me, for Clarkson, and for millions of other Britons, "eeny meeny" is the archetypal counting rhyme. It seems to have a similar resonance for orfeo. It is not at all the "free choice" that you seem to imply. There are hundreds of books, short stories and the like with titles that reference "eeny meeny". I have never encountered a short story entitled "Ip Dip Dog Shit".
Equally, I would be prepared to bet that if somebody introduces you to a new person, there is a standard greeting that you always use. You won't stand there and go through a list of all possible greetings (although you would recognize them all), you'll just come out with whatever is your default.
[ 04. May 2014, 19:05: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Well, as CK's circus thread is demonstrating, their are several options. Which would I use? I don't know, so I'd have to flip a coin to decide.
Yes, several options exist, but each individual person has more or less one rhyme that was/is standard.
First, the Circus Thread is a game and one of the loose rules of such is to avoid "Me Too" responses and multiple replies in one post.
More importantly, if you look at the bit of my quote I left in bold, you will see a near universal, non-racist anywhere option. One that I would wager heavy odds Clarkson is aware of.
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
For me, for Clarkson, and for millions of other Britons, "eeny meeny" is the archetypal counting rhyme.
For white Britons. For those with a bit more melanin, you will find the standards change a bit.
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
It seems to have a similar resonance for orfeo. It is not at all the "free choice" that you seem to imply.
But it actually is. If Clarkson had done one take and given it up, you might be correct. He made a conscious decision to continue, through several takes.
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Equally, I would be prepared to bet that if somebody introduces you to a new person, there is a standard greeting that you always use. You won't stand there and go through a list of all possible greetings (although you would recognize them all), you'll just come out with whatever is your default.
Actually, you are incorrect. How I choose to greet someone is quite contextual. And at times complicated. I find it strange you would have one, standard greeting.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Urban is more complicated. It is used as a euphemism/replacement/proxy for Black. It's need not be derogatory.
Derogatory isn't really my issue - I'm looking for a set of words that an American would understand to mean low income urban communities, without carrying any extra implication of race.
It sounds like "urban poor" is a better bet than "inner-city poor", but still not free of racial colour.
They are always going to see it as being tainted with racial colour, because demographically that's how American cities are. Or many of them. "White flight" to the suburbs made it so.
Any term is not going to work when it's being selected as a code for Black. "Densely located people on welfare" is going to have the racial implication not because it has a history, but because it was a grouping which was unrelated to the attribute being discussed.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
For me, for Clarkson, and for millions of other Britons, "eeny meeny" is the archetypal counting rhyme. It seems to have a similar resonance for orfeo.
And you typically learned and used the version with "nigger"? I ask because growing up in California in the 70s I learned it with "tiger", and wasn't even aware there was another version until I heard it in high school (in a public service announcement video, a mother is shown singing it to her infant, demonstrating how prejudice can be started early.)
Wikipedia suggests that version arose in the US (reported as common among American school children in 1888) and was popularized in the UK by Kipling's 1935 Land and Sea Tales for Scouts and Guides.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Meanwhile, Jeremy Clarkson is now in trouble for reciting the version of Eeny Meeny Miny Moe that both he and I learnt as a child, mumbling uncomfortably when he got to the offensive word, IN UNAIRED FOOTAGE.
Cor blimey, but the thought police are out in force aren't they? I'm sorry, but making a news story out of it when the person knows it's a bad word but can't pull out of the rhythm of a childhood rhyme is just getting ridiculous. If it's about changing minds, his mind is already changed.
Just shutting your mouth when you know you're about to say something that is stupid and offensive is simply not an option.
And offensive words that were part of your childhood have a special permission in general discourse.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
And you typically learned and used the version with "nigger"?
I think I mentioned this earlier, but yes, we used the "nigger" version, although a good fraction of us thought the word was "nicker", and none of us had any knowledge of "nigger" as a word meaning black person.
It's probably Rudyard Kipling's fault.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Just shutting your mouth when you know you're about to say something that is stupid and offensive is simply not an option.
You were being sarcastic? Because it certainly is an option.
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
And offensive words that were part of your childhood have a special permission in general discourse.
Again, sarcasm? Because they do not have special permission.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
We all know that "cat" was a derogatory term for gays.
"Cat"?
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
We all know that "cat" was a derogatory term for gays.
"Cat"?
1. It certainly was here. You're in SA aren't you- may be different there.
2. The "we all know" is a part of it as well. On the last few posts, it's obvious that the "we" is moveable, dependant on where you live or grew up. Just as the "we" who took offence to "niggardly" grew up somewhere that that word was not used.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
For white Britons. For those with a bit more melanin, you will find the standards change a bit.
And also for anyone who is much younger than about 40, I'd imagine. There are millions of white Britons over 40, though.
My assumption is that the rhyme was popularized in English playgrounds because of Rudyard Kipling. Clearly, Kipling was racist (but not exceptionally so for his time), and clearly his use of the rhyme is treating black people as inferior.
I can't speak for Clarkson, but I can speak for me. In my childhood, as I have mentioned, the rhyme with "nigger" was the rhyme commonly used to pick between options. Not one of us knew that "nigger" meant black person, let alone that it was offensive. It was just a nonce word that went with the rhyme.
As a result, in my head, the rhyme has an association with the syllables "nig-ger", but not with the concept of racist word for black person. Now, intellectually I understand that that "nigger" is offensive, and so I don't vocalize it (having children who recite the "tiger" version is helpful here), but in my head, in the context of the rhyme, there is no racial content at all. I imagine I have probably said "nigger" inside my own head in the context of the rhyme, without the slightest bit of racist thought, because those are just the syllables that go there.
Maybe if I had heard "nigger" used as a racial insult on a regular basis, I would have something of the instinctual aversion to that pair of syllables that you have. But as I mentioned upthread, it's not a word I ever hear people using in real life.
But as it is, I think rote memory supplies "nigger", and then my intellect chimes in with "that's racist. Don't say that."
The fact that my kids recite the "tiger" version makes it easy for me to substitute "tiger" for the offending syllables. Before I had kids, I am pretty sure I just used to voice a pair of non-specific syllables to produce the correct scansion.
Maybe Clarkson's kids never taught him the tiger rhyme.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I grew up with "nigger" in the rhyme, also a school uniform in n****** brown (there is an ex-pupil hereabouts, slightly younger than me, who has insisted on describing it with that word when I don't use it. It was clear she knew it would be thought offensive in some places.)
I was somewhat anxious hearing some children at the school where I taught embarking on it, but they used Tigger, as in Milne and Disney, Invisible sigh of relief from me. That is what I have heard ever since. Not tiger, BTW.
They didn't always use that rhyme, anyway. One potato, two potato was one.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Maybe Clarkson's kids never taught him the tiger rhyme.
It doesn't matter, though does it? Had Clarkson tried the rhyme once and then gave it up, you would have a point. But he does it 4 or 5 times, on camera, for an international programme. Credit for not using it in the final edit, yeah, so no sacking. But a warning is more than appropriate.
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Just as the "we" who took offence to "niggardly" grew up somewhere that that word was not used.
No. I gave an example of why the word pulled memory of offence. I do not recall anyone saying it should have been considered so by everyone, everywhere.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I apologise the LilBuddha, but I was thinking of this and other posts of yours:
One issue is the weight of the homophonic. I knew the word niggardly before I knew the word nigger. Sheltered early childhood. But that dramatically changed, to the point where every time I hear or see the former, the later is superimposed. I do not automatically become angered with the speaker/author, but that pain is there. It is reflex, it is not controlled.
And not just posts of yours - Palimpset's amongst other.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Apologies Gee D,
I think I misread your post.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It doesn't matter, though does it? Had Clarkson tried the rhyme once and then gave it up, you would have a point. But he does it 4 or 5 times, on camera, for an international programme. Credit for not using it in the final edit, yeah, so no sacking. But a warning is more than appropriate.
The report I read suggested that during one take he said "nigger", or something that sounded a bit like it. His story is that he was intentionally mumbling through those syllables to avoid saying the word, and on one occasion didn't do a good job. I have seen the recording published by the Mirror "newspaper", and it seems to fit these facts - he mumbles his way through the bulk of the 'catch' line.
Clarkson's detractors claim that he was obviously being racist, and trying to slip a "nigger" in there in a comic fashion. I'm not so sure, for exactly the reason I have been discussing.
I think he was unwise to attempt the "mumbling" strategy - I think the only way to acceptably say the eeny meeny rhyme out loud is to clearly enunciate a different word, and I would give Clarkson that advice in rather strong terms.
But I don't think that the recording I heard warrants any kind of disciplinary proceeding.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Just shutting your mouth when you know you're about to say something that is stupid and offensive is simply not an option.
You were being sarcastic? Because it certainly is an option.
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
And offensive words that were part of your childhood have a special permission in general discourse.
Again, sarcasm? Because they do not have special permission.
Yes I was being sarcastic in both cases.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Clarkson's detractors claim that he was obviously being racist, and trying to slip a "nigger" in there in a comic fashion. I'm not so sure, for exactly the reason I have been discussing.
Whilst I do not agree with your reasoning, I am also not sure he was trying to be deliberately racist. I see Clarkson as more casually racist. The "Oh it was in fun, no harm intended." with a dose of pushing the boundaries.
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I think he was unwise to attempt the "mumbling" strategy - I think the only way to acceptably say the eeny meeny rhyme out loud is to clearly enunciate a different word, and I would give Clarkson that advice in rather strong terms.
But I don't think that the recording I heard warrants any kind of disciplinary proceeding.
Again, I will mention this is about again.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Urban is more complicated. It is used as a euphemism/replacement/proxy for Black. It's need not be derogatory.
Derogatory isn't really my issue - I'm looking for a set of words that an American would understand to mean low income urban communities, without carrying any extra implication of race.
It sounds like "urban poor" is a better bet than "inner-city poor", but still not free of racial colour.
They are always going to see it as being tainted with racial colour, because demographically that's how American cities are. Or many of them. "White flight" to the suburbs made it so.
Any term is not going to work when it's being selected as a code for Black. "Densely located people on welfare" is going to have the racial implication not because it has a history, but because it was a grouping which was unrelated to the attribute being discussed.
But this is getting circular. The point of Leorning Cniht's question is: what term do you use if you actually want to talk about urban poor because both the poverty and the urban location are relevant to what you're saying?
And you seem to be presupposing that no matter what, it's always going to be racist code for referring black poor.
Why should that be the case? It seems self-evident to me, coming from another country where the racial demographic is thoroughly different, that the situation of poor people in the inner city is not the same in all respects as the situation of poor people elsewhere. It should be possible to talk specifically about poor people in the inner city. And it's beginning to sound to me as if that's impossible in the USA, because it will be heard as code for black people.
If that's the case, it's actually a barrier to solving the problems of poor people in the inner city. If politicians aren't allowed to talk about them, how are any solutions going to be created?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
... If that's the case, it's actually a barrier to solving the problems of poor people in the inner city. If politicians aren't allowed to talk about them, how are any solutions going to be created?
Well, they could try talking to people, rather than about them. Listening would be even better. How is it possible to create a solution without the participation of the people they are intended to help?
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
There's a need to describe the problems of the poor in the city. As you say, it's not the same in all respects as the problems of the suburban poor or the rural poor. When the demographics of the group you want to specifically describe have a negative connotation because of racism there's a problem.
So you create a neutral term and use it, and it gradually acquires a derogatory meaning and so it becomes necessary to create a new term.
The Euphemism treadmill is a continuing problem with many descriptive terms.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
So you create a neutral term and use it, and it gradually acquires a derogatory meaning and so it becomes necessary to create a new term.
Yes - the same applies with terms for learning disabilities. Special Needs is the latest to lose its meaning. 'Special' in now a derogatory term in schools around here.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Clarkson's "serial offender" record is, unfortunately, a manifestation of his "often outrageous but entertaining" TV persona. So I'm sure the decision to cut shows that there is calculation in play; he knew it went too far, even for TV Clarkson.
I've no idea what he is like IRL, but on TV he's not the only person to have become the captive of his image.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
... If that's the case, it's actually a barrier to solving the problems of poor people in the inner city. If politicians aren't allowed to talk about them, how are any solutions going to be created?
Well, they could try talking to people, rather than about them. Listening would be even better. How is it possible to create a solution without the participation of the people they are intended to help?
This is true, but it's also a separate issue that affects absolutely everything that politicians do, not just situations like this one.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
So you create a neutral term and use it, and it gradually acquires a derogatory meaning and so it becomes necessary to create a new term.
The Euphemism treadmill is a continuing problem with many descriptive terms.
And this is what you recommend ? This is a good thing, the way language is supposed to work ?
Isn't this rather an indication of a failed strategy ? That the Orwellian project of changing attitudes by changing "accepted" vocabulary just doesn't work ?
That an alternative approach - such as encouraging people to listen for the speaker's intention rather than hunt around for any conceivable insult - might increase the general level of harmony in interpersonal relations ?
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
So you create a neutral term and use it, and it gradually acquires a derogatory meaning and so it becomes necessary to create a new term.
The Euphemism treadmill is a continuing problem with many descriptive terms.
And this is what you recommend ? This is a good thing, the way language is supposed to work ?
Isn't this rather an indication of a failed strategy ? That the Orwellian project of changing attitudes by changing "accepted" vocabulary just doesn't work ?
That an alternative approach - such as encouraging people to listen for the speaker's intention rather than hunt around for any conceivable insult - might increase the general level of harmony in interpersonal relations ?
Since what we're talking about in this case is often understanding non-face-to-face communication (televised, written, etc) there's often no reliable way to know the speaker's intent. You're asking people to read someone else's mind. That's a recipe even more disastrous than the admittedly vexing problem that it's seeking to correct.
IMHO Palimpsest has offered a very realistic perspective that reflects the actual way language works. By highlighting that mechanism and explaining it in a non-accusatory way, he's giving the way out: attend to the way the conversation is moving, the way the language surrounding your key field of expertise/ influence is changing. Because, again, that's the whole point of language-- not to be right according to some arbitrary dictionary but rather to communicate.
Of course, in an evolving landscape of acceptable terminology, someone somewhere is bound to caught a few beats behind the flow of where the language is heading, which is why we need to take most such errors with a dose of grace-- as most everyone here has advocated.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Of course, in an evolving landscape of acceptable terminology, someone somewhere is bound to caught a few beats behind the flow of where the language is heading, which is why we need to take most such errors with a dose of grace-- as most everyone here has advocated.
Not wishing to rebuff your graciousness in looking forgivingly on those age groups and parts of the world that are "a few beats behind the flow" of the evolving English language.
But to describe less-than-up-to-the-minute usage as "errors" seems to reflect an underlying attitude for which "cultural imperialism" is the best label I can find off the top of my head. Others can probably do better.
New usages emerge all the time from the froth of media. Some will become mainstream and make it into published dictionaries; others will wither. Evolution is a trial-and-error process. There is no moral superiority in being an "early adopter". But maybe it's a forgivable mistake... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Some of us choose to live in backwaters.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Of course, in an evolving landscape of acceptable terminology, someone somewhere is bound to caught a few beats behind the flow of where the language is heading, which is why we need to take most such errors with a dose of grace-- as most everyone here has advocated.
Not wishing to rebuff your graciousness in looking forgivingly on those age groups and parts of the world that are "a few beats behind the flow" of the evolving English language.
But to describe less-than-up-to-the-minute usage as "errors" seems to reflect an underlying attitude for which "cultural imperialism" is the best label I can find off the top of my head. Others can probably do better.
New usages emerge all the time from the froth of media. Some will become mainstream and make it into published dictionaries; others will wither. Evolution is a trial-and-error process. There is no moral superiority in being an "early adopter". But maybe it's a forgivable mistake...
Some of us choose to live in backwaters.
As is indeed your right.
However, as you have seen on this thread and in Palimpsest's most helpful descriptor, doing so inevitably means that you will cause hurt to some. Some of those you hurt may in fact be the professional victims who find offense in every word or phrase that is even a minute out of date of the latest PC acceptable verbiage.
But many of those who will be hurt do not fall into that category. They are real, disadvantaged people who have been marginalized in some way-- whether by race, orientation, gender, disability, whatever. They may be hurt in ways that are relatively minor (a momentary pang) or more significant (continuing cultural marginalization). But a caring person will note that, and wish to avoid causing pain, whether minor or significant.
Again, it's not reasonable to expect that every person, everywhere will reliably know each and every up-to-date terminology and why words that once were completely inoffensive now cause distress. That's where grace comes in. But to willfully ignore the evolution of language, to willfully choose to "live in the backwaters" is, as others have suggested, to be a jerk. Or at least act/speak like one. And if one willfully chooses that stance, they can no longer demand that the listener "consider what speaker's intent" (again, demanding omniscience of the listener) because the intent clearly is to say whatever the hell one likes regardless of how it hurts others.
That's not good communication, nor is it free speech. It's just plain old garden-variety lazy ignorance.
[ 05. May 2014, 15:49: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Some of us choose to live in backwaters.
And then you must endure the wrinkled noses of those offended by the odours produced by the stagnate, festering pools encouraged by unmoving water.
[ 05. May 2014, 15:53: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
fyi: I don't think what I am describing has anything at all to do with "age groups" or geography, although those may or may not be complicating factors in the mutual give-and-take of good communication. It's all about attitude and characteristics like empathy, kindness, and generosity and how those things (or the lack thereof) shape our language.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
fyi: I don't think what I am describing has anything at all to do with "age groups" or geography, although those may or may not be complicating factors in the mutual give-and-take of good communication. It's all about attitude and characteristics like empathy, kindness, and generosity and how those things (or the lack thereof) shape our language.
Don't think anyone's opposed to empathy and kindness. And, for example, that empathy and kindness may result in one choosing one's words very carefully should it become necessary to raise with an overweight friend/acquaintance/neighbour the subject of his or her weight.
But that shouldn't prevent plain English discussion of obesity as a general issue, or make such discussion subject to fads in the use of language.
As for age and geography, do you really think that as many new usages move westwards as eastwards across the Atlantic ? That the 60-80s coin as many new usages as the 20-40s ? That rural areas change as fast as urban ?
Nothing wrong with vibrant culture. But the fact that a usage becomes well-established in some group of people who are "ahead" in terms of the flow of new ideas, new words, new usages doesn't impose any duty on those "behind" to keep up.
Speaking tabloid English - chav and bling - is no virtue.
Freedom to coin new usages is matched by freedom to reject them. If some community wishes to speak the language of Dickens and Trollope, there's no innate immorality there. And broadcast and blog in that language (although how to refer to the process of blogging in Dickensian English might prove interesting).
Should someone from such a fictitious community encounter and desire to communicate with someone from a New York slum, then clearly some empathy and goodwill may be needed. Equally on both sides.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
QUOTE]Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
fyi: I don't think what I am describing has anything at all to do with "age groups" or geography, although those may or may not be complicating factors in the mutual give-and-take of good communication. It's all about attitude and characteristics like empathy, kindness, and generosity and how those things (or the lack thereof) shape our language.
Don't think anyone's opposed to empathy and kindness. And, for example, that empathy and kindness may result in one choosing one's words very carefully should it become necessary to raise with an overweight friend/acquaintance/neighbour the subject of his or her weight.
But that shouldn't prevent plain English discussion of obesity as a general issue, or make such discussion subject to fads in the use of language.[/QUOTE]
It depends on what you mean by "fads". Obviously you're using it as a pejorative. But what you call "fad" sounds to me what I'm calling kindness and empathy-- simply being attentive to other people's use of language and anticipating possible hurt/offensive. My point about empathy and kindness was not to prevent any discussion of any topic. My point was to do so with kindness and empathy. Which would entail, among other things, avoiding using terms which you know to be offensive. (We have already discussed the obvious problem of unintentional usage of offensive terms, which is a different matter). If that means paying attention to "fads" then so be it.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
fyi: I don't think what I am describing has anything at all to do with "age groups" or geography, although those may or may not be complicating factors in the mutual give-and-take of good communication. It's all about attitude and characteristics like empathy, kindness, and generosity and how those things (or the lack thereof) shape our language.
As for age and geography, do you really think that as many new usages move westwards as eastwards across the Atlantic ? That the 60-80s coin as many new usages as the 20-40s ? That rural areas change as fast as urban ?
You're ripping my quote from the context. In the context, I'd already covered that, as had others.
Yes, obviously there will be huge geographic and generational differences in vocabulary. We see this on the board and on this thread. And yes, people who are geographically or generationally isolated will be less likely to know/anticipate which terms will cause offense. This is where our discussion of innocent errors comes in. One should, as has been said multiple times already, show grace in such a circumstance, the same as you would someone who speaks broken English and makes a grammatical error. That's part of empathy and kindness, of course.
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Nothing wrong with vibrant culture. But the fact that a usage becomes well-established in some group of people who are "ahead" in terms of the flow of new ideas, new words, new usages doesn't impose any duty on those "behind" to keep up.
You don't have a duty, of course. But, again, we're talking about known offense here, not unknown. At the point when a term is known to be offensive, if you continue to use it, you are being a jerk. You are demonstrating that your goal is not good communication, your goal is not understanding, but rather something else entirely.
quote:
Originally posted by Russ: Speaking tabloid English - chav and bling - is no virtue.
This term is unfamiliar cross-pond.
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Freedom to coin new usages is matched by freedom to reject them. If some community wishes to speak the language of Dickens and Trollope, there's no innate immorality there. And broadcast and blog in that language (although how to refer to the process of blogging in Dickensian English might prove interesting).
Should someone from such a fictitious community encounter and desire to communicate with someone from a New York slum, then clearly some empathy and goodwill may be needed. Equally on both sides.
Which is precisely what we have been saying all along.
[ 07. May 2014, 23:46: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
agh, somehow in editing to fix messed up coding I ended up with duplicate post and no time to delete. Sorry.
[duplicate post stuff deleted]
[ 08. May 2014, 05:44: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
There are many alternates to the word nigger for currently in use, alternates for all the words or, gasp not using the rhyme at all.
Until threads like this one, I wouldn't have known any alternative word for nigger in that rhyme.
At a family party, where my sister was doing more than her fair share of passing round food and drinks and generally looking after everybody, my mother-in-law (in her 80s at the time) said to my mother "Your eldest daughter is working like a [incredibly long pause, as she doubtless considers and rejects "nigger" and "slave"] Trojan!"
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
There are many alternates to the word nigger for currently in use, alternates for all the words or, gasp not using the rhyme at all.
Until threads like this one, I wouldn't have known any alternative word for nigger in that rhyme.
At a family party, where my sister was doing more than her fair share of passing round food and drinks and generally looking after everybody, my mother-in-law (in her 80s at the time) said to my mother "Your eldest daughter is working like a [incredibly long pause, as she doubtless considers and rejects "nigger" and "slave"] Trojan!"
See my story upthread about how my mom's less edited usage of that phrase led me to have to change the Bible translation I use when preaching on the parable of the prodigal son...
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
Was it GBS said that the Americans and English are two nations divided by a common language ?
We all go to school, and get our early writings returned to us with red ink where we've got words wrong. Within a community, there is correct and incorrect English. As well as words or phrases that are considered polite and those considered less-polite.
Then we grow up and leave school (or possibly in the other order)and discover that there are whole nations whose English wouldn't quite get full marks at school. And grow older still and find that the younger generation's English isn't quite up to the mark. (and probablybecome old fogeys moaning about declining educational standards).
So we struggle with this strange mix of right or wrong word use within a community or social circle, and yet different but equally valid usage between different parts of the globe, between different communities.
In this hybrid situation, where what we think we know is neither absolute and objective, nor relative and subjective, but something in-between, something community-relative where "community" is not closed and well-defined but open, shifting and permeable.
One of the ways of getting it wrong is to treat the relative politeness of a word within one's own community as an absolute truth that should be heeded by people in other communities.
Nothing wrong with a friendly well-intentioned warning "here in Kansas City if you talk about inner city problems people will tend to think you mean racial problems". That's unobjectionable and could be useful data if one happened to be planning a business trip in that direction.
But rephrase it as "These days anyone who talks about inner city problems is a closet racist; this is accepted usage where I live - if you in the rest of the world don't adjust your usage accordingly then you're a jerk" and you come across as someone with an exaggerated sense of the importance of your own place of residence. It's to do with tact and empathy...
Trying hard here to agree with what's right in what you say, and make it clear to you what's wrong.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
One of the ways of getting it wrong is to treat the relative politeness of a word within one's own community as an absolute truth that should be heeded by people in other communities.
hmmm... and yet that "absolute truth" approach seems to be precisely what you have been arguing for here. What am I missing?
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Nothing wrong with a friendly well-intentioned warning "here in Kansas City if you talk about inner city problems people will tend to think you mean racial problems". That's unobjectionable and could be useful data if one happened to be planning a business trip in that direction.
But rephrase it as "These days anyone who talks about inner city problems is a closet racist; this is accepted usage where I live - if you in the rest of the world don't adjust your usage accordingly then you're a jerk" and you come across as someone with an exaggerated sense of the importance of your own place of residence. It's to do with tact and empathy...
Which is EXACTLY what pretty much everyone on this thread has said-- repeatedly.
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Trying hard here to agree with what's right in what you say, and make it clear to you what's wrong.
Try harder then, because I'm not seeing it. So far, I hear you arguing vehemently that I am wrong, wrong, wrong, and then giving me an impassioned argument for exactly what I and everyone else has said.
[ 08. May 2014, 16:31: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Was it GBS said that the Americans and English are two nations divided by a common language ?
This bloody well annoys me. Neither the UK nor America are homogeneous in language usage. Expressions, slang, pronunciations and overtones all vary within national boundaries as much as between them. And, as has many race related issues raised on SOF, experience is different dependent also on the hue of one's skin or the origin of one's ancestors.
This is not Jolly Olde England vs the Colonies to the degree it is being portrayed.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
I don't think the us of the word "niggardly" in the U.S. is as problematic as it's being portrayed by some on this thread. Anybody who has been through the U.S. school system would've encountered the word a number of times between the 7th and 11th grades through Dickens, or Austen, or Melville or a number of different authors. In this case the solution isn't "be careful with what you say", it's "here's a dictionary and here's a subscription to the Book-of-the-Month Club for you".
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
I don't think the us of the word "niggardly" in the U.S. is as problematic as it's being portrayed by some on this thread. Anybody who has been through the U.S. school system would've encountered the word a number of times between the 7th and 11th grades through Dickens, or Austen, or Melville or a number of different authors. In this case the solution isn't "be careful with what you say", it's "here's a dictionary and here's a subscription to the Book-of-the-Month Club for you".
I disagree, for all the reasons we've mentioned upthread.
fwiw, I'm in the US and know the dictionary definition of "niggardly" but would not use it unless in very select situations. Again, the point of language is to communicate, using a term that's going to require a lot of "unpacking" ("be careful with what you say", it's "here's a dictionary and here's a subscription to the Book-of-the-Month Club for you") in any environment other than academia is going to be distraction from whatever you're primary purpose might be.
The other problem is, again (this has all been well covered upthread) is that the offended party can't know what they don't know. If someone hears "niggardly" and thinks it's a variant of the n-word, they don't know to look it up or to ask what it means. They think they know. And the offending party similarly may not realize they've offended, especially if the communication is not face-to-face (e.g. in the media).
Good communication takes these sorts of things into consideration and strives to avoid words that may distract or mislead from the meaning you're attempting to convey. Mistakes are made, of course, but that is the goal.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Was it GBS said that the Americans and English are two nations divided by a common language ?
This bloody well annoys me. Neither the UK nor America are homogeneous in language usage. Expressions, slang, pronunciations and overtones all vary within national boundaries as much as between them.
That's true. I've indicated that there's an age dimension, and suspect there are rural/urban issues also, as well as regional variations.
I'm inclined to give the transatlantic dimension first place only in response to the earlier discussion of the longer N-word. Where it seemed that the resemblance to the shorter N-word was seen as less obvious or significant to Europeans.
Also, national broadcast and print media tend to encourage commonality of usage within nations.
But the point of quoting Shaw was not to blame everything on national variations, but simply reflect that it's the sort of problem that arises when two people think they speak the same language, but don't quite.
If you go around labelling this usage as "acceptable" or that usage as "offensive" without any qualifier as to which people in which places might find it acceptable or offensive, then it can sound awfully like saying that American usage or Guardian-reader usage (sorry - don't know the US equivalent - national left-leaning newspaper) is normative for the rest of the world.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
If you go around labelling this usage as "acceptable" or that usage as "offensive" without any qualifier as to which people in which places might find it acceptable or offensive, then it can sound awfully like saying that American usage or Guardian-reader usage (sorry - don't know the US equivalent - national left-leaning newspaper) is normative for the rest of the world.
True, but a bit off-topic as no one here is doing that.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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