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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Israel's troubles
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Oh FFS Mudfrog. UN schools are being shelled. What do you expect them to say? "Yeah, that's fine. We appreciate what you're trying to do, so go right ahead and keep dropping those bombs on us."
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
... or is the UN in Gaza actually made up of Palestinians who either actively support or merely fail to condemn Hamas' activities and policies?
I presume that if you're dealing with a Hamas-type organisation on a day-to-day basis you're limited on what you're able to say about events? Criticising the regime could presumably mean getting kicked out, or worse?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Mudfrog quote:
It seems to me that we have 2 sources of criticism of Israel - Hamas and the UN.
Might one suggest a third: that of largely a-political decent people reacting to the images of devastation, particularly the severe injuries to children, in Gaza?
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Among which quite a number of Jews inside and outside of Israel.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
From France24
And I know you'll just reject the source out of hand but THIS may be worth posting
[ 06. August 2014, 11:09: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
THIS is also worth reading because it puts the present conflict into a wider setting. Why indeed are we hearing such little condemnation from the surrounding region?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
From France24
And I know you'll just reject the source out of hand but THIS may be worth posting
Equally from here http://www.timesofisrael.com/3-idf-soldiers-killed-in-booby-trapped-unrwa-clinic/
"However, the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories, the military unit that implements government policies in the Palestinian areas, later said that the clinic in Abu Daka, outside Khan Younis, was last registered as a sensitive location three years ago, “and it hasn’t been since.”
The spokesperson said the site had not been registered then as belonging to UNRWA, leading to speculation that, perhaps, militants stole the sign and tacked it on the door, posting it as a security umbrella under which a tunnel could be dug."
The Jerusalem Post reports neither angle - probably because there is little evidence to support your initial claim.
[ 06. August 2014, 11:22: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Mudfrog, here's a question for you.
Why does anyone who criticises Israel have to have questionable motives as far as you are concerned?
Are you saying that anyone who does so has to be some kind of Hamas stooge or else blinded by liberal propaganda?
I'd also postulate that things aren't so binary that they fall into a neat Hamas/UN axis (if there is one) and a Pro-Israel whatever happens axis.
Perhaps I inhabit a different universe to the one you live in? One with more shades of grey in it perhaps?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
American Thinker? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Isn't that an oxymoron? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
No, of course it isn't, but I'm becoming increasingly suspicious of any news-source or website that has the word 'American' as the first word in its title ...
'American Patriot', 'American Freedom-Lover', 'American Particularist'.
They'll either have a picture of Thomas Jefferson or crossed rifles or the Statue of Liberty, a Bald Eagle or some other suitably hijacked US icon - or all these elements at once.
They are all short-hand for crazy 6-Day Creationist gun-nuts from below the Mason-Dixon Line.
I recognise the signs. I switch off ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
... or is the UN in Gaza actually made up of Palestinians who either actively support or merely fail to condemn Hamas' activities and policies?
I presume that if you're dealing with a Hamas-type organisation on a day-to-day basis you're limited on what you're able to say about events? Criticising the regime could presumably mean getting kicked out, or worse?
So, basically the UN are totally cool with the Israelis dropping ordnance on Class 4B but dare not mention the fact in case they upset Hamas? Glad we sorted that one out.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The problem is, that my take can easily lead me to equal and opposite errors ...
I may well one day overlook a perfectly respectable news-source entitled 'American something or other' because I've heard 'Wolf!' cried so many times by the fruit-cake 'Patriot' types.
Which is why we need to tread carefully through this whole minefield.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
... or is the UN in Gaza actually made up of Palestinians who either actively support or merely fail to condemn Hamas' activities and policies?
I presume that if you're dealing with a Hamas-type organisation on a day-to-day basis you're limited on what you're able to say about events? Criticising the regime could presumably mean getting kicked out, or worse?
So, basically the UN are totally cool with the Israelis dropping ordnance on Class 4B but dare not mention the fact in case they upset Hamas? Glad we sorted that one out.
Erm, no. I was responding to Mudfrog's point about the apparently muted criticism of Hamas by the UN.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
The UN is simply uncool with the proportion of civilian casualties in Gaza. So is Baroness Warsi and a growing number of MPs on the government benches. Israeli tanks and troops have been right in there and with the high-tech military hardware Israel possesses, one would think they could miss schools and hospitals and concentrate on what really are the military targets.
It's almost as if Israel is entirely content to blast every present inhabitant in Gaza into the sea: after all, that is still Likud party policy.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I'm not sure what is different this time.
In past decades the broad public opinion wherever I lived was "anything Israel does is right" even when the same behavior was instantly condemned when done by any other country.
Any criticism of any action of the political state of Israel brought instant fierce accusations of anti-semitism, as if there was no distinction between the political state in the middle east and a Jewish individual in your home town. Maybe to some Jewish people, there is that close a sense of identification.
But right now, although some of my "conservative" friends still insist whatever Israel does is right solely because it's Israel doing it (Israel's well-being trumps all other moral considerations), I am hearing a lot of rumbling about Gaza and slaughter of children and UN refugee shelters. I am NOT looking for the info, and yet bumping into it. Hearing criticism of Israel in mainstream, without it being drowned out by "anti-Semitism!" accusations, is new to me.
What's different?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I think defending Israel's actions whatever it does becomes more and more difficult to the measure of which these actions become more and more indefensible.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Perhaps one of the reasons why the rest of the middle east is muted in its condemnation of Israel is because they are well aware of who is arming Hamas, which is Iran.
Saudi Arabia, in particular, is less than keen that Hamas may finally, with Iranian help, be getting itself towards a position that the Saudis have long said they wanted - that is to being in a position to have a credible chance of inflicting serious and permanent damage to Israel.
It would seem its one thing to call for the annihilation of a country when it is unlikely to happen, quite another to face the prospect of one's deadliest foe bringing that prospect any closer.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
That's what I was querying. How important is "the Jewish vote" in America? Is it monolithic? And is it so strong that no President dare criticise Israel?
Ask how important is the Jewish AND Israel-supporting conservative Christian vote. Pretty darned.
How important are those groups for Obama in particular, and Democrats in general? I can see them mattering to groups like the Tea-Baggers, but not to other groups (however, I am an ignorant Brit). As far as I know Obama has been reticent about condemning Israel for recent events.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
The thing is that it makes a great deal of sense from a realpolitik point of view for the US to support Israel. It is a stable democracy and, therefore, a reliable ally, it has a massive vested interest in doing down groups that the US tends to regard as undesirable (Moscow backed one party states prior to the end of the Cold War, Radical Islamists subsequently). And, let's be brutally frank, if things did get unpleasant would you rather have the IDF on your side or the other lot. The Israelis may be a bit naughty when it comes to collateral damage but they can, at least, mix it up when it comes to a proper scrap. The Israelis know this, of course.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
The thing is that it makes a great deal of sense from a realpolitik point of view for the US to support Israel.
It doesn't, actually. There's no point having an ally whose main action is to make themselves international pariahs, particularly hated by their neighbours who you kind of need to be on good terms with because of the oil. Plus the IDF are only as good as they because the US keeps flogging them state of the art military kit and giving them cash to buy it with.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Plus the IDF are only as good as they because the US keeps flogging them state of the art military kit and giving them cash to buy it with.
This is somewhat true of the Egyptians too, isn't it?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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mrWaters
Shipmate
# 18171
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Regarding the location of the Jewish population of America...
I don't believe New York is a swing state.
Also note the distinct lack of Jews in Ohio.
(One bit of googling. One.)
And in fact New York, California, and Massachusetts alone account for nearly 50%, and only 23% live in the 2012 swing states in Wikipedia's map - and 9.5% of those are in Florida.
Sorry for late replies but this topic is developing very rapidly.
My claim of 95% is based upon Mitchell Bard's book (2009) "The Israeli and Arab Lobbies" in which he claims that "Jews have devoted themselves to politics with almost religious fervor. (...) Jews have the highest percentage voter turnout of any ethnic group" and that "roughly 94 percent live in thirteen key electoral college states" which alone "are worth enough electoral votes to elect the president."
Additionally it is common knowledge that Jews in the US statistically speaking have a very privileged position in the economic system. There are numerous studies that prove that more than 45% of Jewish Americans earn more than 100 000$ a year. More than a double of average Americans.
According to Glenn Frankel's article in the Post (2006)between 1990 and 2006 the Israeli lobby donated more than 50 million compared to about 800 thousands by the Muslim/Palestinian lobby. It is almost a common knowledge that quite a lot of big donors in the US are either Jewish or very Jewish-friendly.
I got my information from other sources than Wikipedia, however if you look at wiki you'll also get the same information. Jewish population in the US is a major political force because of where they live and their political donations. Since the era of super PAC's, the Jewish Big Donors are even more important. I could probably write a whole essay on how important Jewish American populated states are however it would be way too long and no one would read it. I did study politics for 2 years and I have always been interested in politics.
[ 06. August 2014, 22:51: Message edited by: mrWaters ]
Posts: 80 | From: Aberdeen | Registered: Jul 2014
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrWaters:
My claim of 95% is based upon Mitchell Bard's book (2009) "The Israeli and Arab Lobbies" in which he claims that "Jews have devoted themselves to politics with almost religious fervor. (...) Jews have the highest percentage voter turnout of any ethnic group" and that "roughly 94 percent live in thirteen key electoral college states" which alone "are worth enough electoral votes to elect the president."
That isn't swing states though. Thirteen key electoral college states just means thirteen BIG states. Which is entirely different. Read what he's actually said, not what you think he's said (and without whatever slant he's trying to put on it to make it sound far more significant than it actually is).
Guess who else mostly lives in big states? The entire freaking population. That's what being a big state means.
In the 2012 US Presidential election it was observed that the Democrats nearly have a lock on the Presidency because most of the largest states are now solidly Democratic. That isn't because Jews are tipping them over the line! They're nowhere near the line.
[ 06. August 2014, 23:33: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
PS Hopefully this will help you. 18 states that have voted Democrat consistently for a couple of decades, and they're mostly larger ones.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mrWaters
Shipmate
# 18171
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrWaters:
A while ago I heard a theory that 95% of Jews live in swing states in the US (I use figure 95% as a symbol, meaning that they are an important. key demographic).
I claim that number of American Jews living in Florida alone constitutes them as a key demographic since only once in the US presidential elections history (since 1976)the candidate that won Florida did not win the whole country. Additionally Florida is always an important battleground. I admit that for example New York stopped being a swing state in the recent history (one can most likely attribute that towards the new Republicans, ever since the end of Regan).
I would like to also remind that apart from the federal elections, there are state elections in which the republicans won the New York senate (at least if one discounts the independent votes, if not then there is a small advantage towards the democrats.). However the American Jews have a big influence because of the campaign donations and the Super PACs money. Which means world to the politicians.
Can we at least agree that the American Jews are very influential in the election process? If not alone for their location, then for their fundraising capabilities.
Posts: 80 | From: Aberdeen | Registered: Jul 2014
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
Y'all have managed to obsess about Jews for 14 pages now. Well done! Keep going and who knows what great conclusions you might end up reaching.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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mrWaters
Shipmate
# 18171
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Posted
I joined in this discussion only a few pages ago but if we stick around until at least 20 pages I believe that we can start discussing Illuminati and the cyclists! Can't wait!
On more serious note with my multi-post defense of one post I'm drifting more and more away from the "Israel's troubles".
[ 07. August 2014, 02:01: Message edited by: mrWaters ]
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
American Thinker?
Isn't that an oxymoron?
No, of course it isn't...
You may not realize this, but not everyone agrees that insults are made instantly acceptable by the liberal use of smiley faces. If you find yourself compelled to instantly withdraw your slurs, perhaps you could instead try to avoid them altogether.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrWaters:
quote:
Originally posted by mrWaters:
A while ago I heard a theory that 95% of Jews live in swing states in the US (I use figure 95% as a symbol, meaning that they are an important. key demographic).
I claim that number of American Jews living in Florida alone constitutes them as a key demographic since only once in the US presidential elections history (since 1976)the candidate that won Florida did not win the whole country. Additionally Florida is always an important battleground. I admit that for example New York stopped being a swing state in the recent history (one can most likely attribute that towards the new Republicans, ever since the end of Regan).
I would like to also remind that apart from the federal elections, there are state elections in which the republicans won the New York senate (at least if one discounts the independent votes, if not then there is a small advantage towards the democrats.). However the American Jews have a big influence because of the campaign donations and the Super PACs money. Which means world to the politicians.
Can we at least agree that the American Jews are very influential in the election process? If not alone for their location, then for their fundraising capabilities.
Florida is one swing state, yes. That hardly proves that 95% of Jews live in swing states. They clearly don't. It doesn't make the 13 states cited into swing states. They clearly aren't.
I've no doubt that there are wealthy and powerful Jewish-Americans who are extremely effective raising funds. That wasn't what anyone took issue with. What we took issue with was some kind of veiled notion that Jews Control Elections.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Y'all have managed to obsess about Jews for 14 pages now. Well done! Keep going and who knows what great conclusions you might end up reaching.
Nice to know the attempt to conflate Israel with Jews is alive and well.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Y'all have managed to obsess about Jews for 14 pages now. Well done! Keep going and who knows what great conclusions you might end up reaching.
Nice to know the attempt to conflate Israel with Jews is alive and well.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
The thing is that it makes a great deal of sense from a realpolitik point of view for the US to support Israel. ]
It doesn't, actually. There's no point having an ally whose main action is to make themselves international pariahs, particularly hated by their neighbours who you kind of need to be on good terms with because of the oil.
Apart from the Gulf States most of the regimes that don't recognise Israel are either pariah regimes themselves (North Korea, Iran) not that important in the scheme of things (Chad, Guinea) or have more important local concerns to worry about (Libya, Iraq). The Gulf states haven't, since the Yom Kippur War, shown any reluctance to sell oil to the US over the issue of Israel. So I'd say that Israel's unpopularity in the Arab world is pretty much priced into US calculations as whether or not support for Israel works for the US or not. Opponents of Israel tend to overstate Israel's unpopularity in the world at large.
quote:
Plus the IDF are only as good as they because the US keeps flogging them state of the art military kit and giving them cash to buy it with.
Well, the Saudis buy rather a lot of kit but I notice that when the Iraqis were getting a bit frisky in the early 1990s the US thought it prudent to stick a few tank divisions on Saudi soil just to be on the safe side. There has never been any need to do that where the Israelis are concerned. In any event, so what? The IOC is hardly going to revise the outcome of the various conflicts in which Israel has been involved on the grounds that they were using American kit.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I thought Gog was Soviet Russia? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
That was the clear meaning of Revelation in 1987. Obviously it's changed now. Get with the programme, dude.
I would have thought Putin's Russia would make a good Gog, but the American Religious Right thinks Putin is a Manly Man, so maybe not.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
The "Israel can do no wrong" sentiment is alive and well in American conservatism. Glenn Beck has been making claims that they have a Biblical claim to their land and right to defend it. Rush Limbaugh has been ranting on about how this is a war, and in war-time civilians die and that's necessary in order to 'win the war' and finally establish peace after you've properly subjugated your enemies.
I won't even go into the madness of Sean Hannity.
My conservative co-workers, who play this stuff all day long, finally asked me how I could possibly not support Israel in this conflict. When I tried to explain to them the conditions Israel imposes on the Palestinians at peace time, all I got was a confused stare. It was completely and totally original information to them, no doubt they figure its a lie spun up by the 'liberal, main-stream media.'
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
The "Israel can do no wrong" sentiment is alive and well in American conservatism...
When I tried to explain to them the conditions Israel imposes on the Palestinians at peace time, all I got was a confused stare. It was completely and totally original information to them, no doubt they figure its a lie spun up by the 'liberal, main-stream media.'
Well, "if it's not on Fox News it isn't real."
But I'd say my friends response would go further - whatever the Palestinians are going thru is sad but irrelevant. 400+ kids dead? It's their fault for trying to possess the land God gave to the Jews.
As to USA absolute support, I asked a savvy friend a few years ago. He said Eisenhower refused to give Israel what they wanted, they vowed "never again" and set up a powerful lobby machine to make sure they will get whatever they want. (I'd ask him for more details but he unkindly dropped dead two years ago. I hate when friends do that!)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
The thing is that it makes a great deal of sense from a realpolitik point of view for the US to support Israel. It is a stable democracy and, therefore, a reliable ally, it has a massive vested interest in doing down groups that the US tends to regard as undesirable (Moscow backed one party states prior to the end of the Cold War, Radical Islamists subsequently). And, let's be brutally frank, if things did get unpleasant would you rather have the IDF on your side or the other lot. The Israelis may be a bit naughty when it comes to collateral damage but they can, at least, mix it up when it comes to a proper scrap. The Israelis know this, of course.
So very much this.
As for the U.N., realpolitik's its alpha and omega. Thanks to the snazzy logo and rhetoric about universal brotherhood, far too many people treat it like the Federation in Star Trek.
I don't blame the U.N. for its embrace of realpolitik, not at all. The League of Nations showed the futility of any intergovernmental organization that allows idealism to eat into its membership rolls.
What it does mean is that anything the U.N. says should be treated with all due skepticism. This is a body that first declared Zionism racist, and then, erm, not racist, solely on the basis of geopolitics.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
As to USA absolute support, I asked a savvy friend a few years ago. He said Eisenhower refused to give Israel what they wanted, they vowed "never again" and set up a powerful lobby machine to make sure they will get whatever they want. (I'd ask him for more details but he unkindly dropped dead two years ago. I hate when friends do that!)
He was probably referring to the Suez Crisis of 1956.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Loopy Christian groups clearly affect the far right of American politics. What I still don't understand is why they have any influence on what passes for left wing thought (or Presidents) in the States.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
He was probably referring to the Suez Crisis of 1956.
That's an interesting thought.
In terms of wars I think my history has come from pro-Israel narratives, where the Suez isn't listed (and any because... chain stops after non-Israeli misdeeds)
And of course as British, would be warery about any motivation to shift motivations for that onto others.
But a history that included that (especially compounded by an expected anti-Israel bias anyway), would I guess be a totally different narrative?
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[ 08. August 2014, 21:13: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
There is apparently a Kurdish joke which I think is apposite to this mammoth 15 page thread. The curse of the Kurds, says the joke, is that their enemies are not Jews.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
You think 15 pages is a massive thread? Hardly. Especially not for something that's been going on longer than many of us have been alive.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Loopy Christian groups clearly affect the far right of American politics. What I still don't understand is why they have any influence on what passes for left wing thought (or Presidents) in the States.
The Jewish vote is a substantial voting block within the Democratic Party. Many Jews are "Progressive in all things except Palestine", meaning that they support the moderate-to-liberal ideology of the Democratic Party but strongly support Israel's policy vis-a-vis the Palestinians.
[ 09. August 2014, 03:20: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
As to USA absolute support, I asked a savvy friend a few years ago. He said Eisenhower refused to give Israel what they wanted, they vowed "never again" and set up a powerful lobby machine to make sure they will get whatever they want. (I'd ask him for more details but he unkindly dropped dead two years ago. I hate when friends do that!)
He was probably referring to the Suez Crisis of 1956.
Yes. What I'd like to ask is his theory just how did the Jewish leaders go about making sure the USA never again fails to give whatever they want. What does their political strength come from that even in these extremely polarized days where anything one party wants is automatically opposed by the other, we suddenly see unanimous votes about backing Israel in whatever that state is doing.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Hollywood.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I would have thought Putin's Russia would make a good Gog, but the American Religious Right thinks Putin is a Manly Man, so maybe not.
That's because the American Religious Right is Magog.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Hollywood.
... ...
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Martin PC not
I like puzzles and normally get your word-games (or get close to them), but "Hollywood" was beyond me. Care to explain (for me, ChastMastr, and probably quite a few others).
As a matter of Ship's rules, clever obscurity is not a virtue; wilful incomprehensibility brings you to the attention of Admin. As you have been told before. From this Host's perspective, "Hollywood" crosses Purg Guideline 3 (it's hard to know whether you are sticking to the point) and Purg Guideline 5 (whether deliberate or not, it certainly isn't courteous).
So do have a care, please, and remember your Shipmates.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
My cautious guess would be that to Martin, Hollywood = Gog. But I could be wrong.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
My less cautious and rather less charitable view is that Martin is referencing the tired old canard of Hollywood Jews controlling the media.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Sorry Barnabas62, I only just noticed this.
Belle Ringer mentioned lobbyism. The smartest people in America work in Hollywood. Smarter than the political class at least. A classic example is the '97 film The Peacemaker which was made to short circuit through to the politicians in the presence of the cinema going electorate, as to the danger of post-Soviet nuclear material going AWOL. Charlie Wilson's War (2007) is another justifier of liberal intervention even and BECAUSE OF the debacle of Iraq. These are relatively recent, whereas among the most influential films (and TV) of the '50s in particular were westerns, paradoxically aimed at civilizing the American male from boyhood: tough but pluralistically fair.
Violence can easily be redemptive. Is MANDATORY for good guys. John Wayne brought down Ceaușescu.
In to the '60s: 1960: Exodus, 1966: Cast A Giant Shadow, '68 The Green Berets. Foreign policy propaganda all of them and more.
Israel's domestic political leadership could have had very little to do with this if anything (and yeah I've asked Muslim friends how Mossad can be so incredibly powerful as to orchestrate 9 11) and the weight of the US Israel lobby is but a fraction of US self-interest geopolitical policy. (And I have dined with Mossad and they ARE very scary buggers indeed).
So even pro-Israel movies would have had far far more Foggy Bottom than Israel lobby weight. Israel is the 'beneficiary' of US foreign relations for as long as it is in America's theocapitalist self-interest. As soon as Muslims start creating liberal democracies, as soon as Palestine starts to emulate Ghandi and MLK and Mandela (and Gorbachev and Yeltsin), Israel is doomed, lobby or no.
But there's no chance of that this century.
There are far more Evangelicals than Jews in America and the Christian Zionist religious right is no more a driver of US foreign policy than the Israel lobby.
If you want to influence Capitol Hill, make a movie.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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