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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Is this music video racist?
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I saw part of a Taylor Swift video while at the gym today. This one, which it turns out is quite new.
I liked it. It looked fun. It looked like she was making fun of herself - at her relative incompetence at various different styles compared to the people around her.
I came home to watch the rest of it. And then I found, to my personal astonishment, that some people have said the video is racist.
You see, apparently, twerking is 'black' dancing, and it's apparently terrible to have a white girl doing it. Or it's terrible to have black girls doing it in front of a white girl. Even when some of the 'black girls' aren't actually black. Or maybe the problem is that not all of them are black. Who knows, given at least one of the critics actually says he doesn't need to see the video to know it's racist...
I'm watching the video and frankly I am mystified. I mean, in what sense does the video try to make any statement about the colour of the people dancing? The only group that ISN'T clearly multiracial is actually the troop of ballerinas. Which no-one seems to be kicking up a fuss about.
Maybe I'm just a naive Aussie who knows nothing about racial politics in other countries, but when I first saw some of this video I didn't see "white" styles and "black" styles of dancing. I just saw a big wide variety of non-Taylor Swift styles of dancing, representing her out of her comfort zone, in keeping with the fact that the music of the song is a departure from her previous style.
What do you see?
[ 08. January 2015, 14:37: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Well, it seems to me that, in at least a few scenes, she is dressed in a manner that is meant to evoke a style commonly associated with African-Americans. Not just that she's copying African-American music or dancing, but that she wants us to look at her image and think "Hmm, she looks kinda black there".
Which I suppose some might view as an updated version of blackface(albeit of a supposedly complimentary variety, not quite as openly degrading as Al Jolson). I'm kind of undecided about these things myself, hut you asked what I saw, so there it is.
[ 11. October 2014, 08:14: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I notice that lots of kids in English schools use black slang, well, I'm assuming that some of it was originally. I don't think this is racist; it seems like admiration to me.
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Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
Dunno. I love your posts, orfeo, but I cannot make myself watch or listen to Taylor Swift if I don't have to. When my gym plays one of her songs, I just grit my teeth and focus on the pain of the exercise to get me through.
I do remember the furore over the infinitely more talented Lorde and her single Royals last year. I remember thinking the reasoning that the song was racist was dumber than shit at the time. I still do.
Sorry. Best I can do.
[ 11. October 2014, 08:20: Message edited by: Dark Knight ]
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
I don't think this is racist; it seems like admiration to me.
"I wish I was a negro..."
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Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Dunno. I love your posts, orfeo, but I cannot make myself watch or listen to Taylor Swift if I don't have to.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Truth be told I'm not much of a fan either. I do actually have this faint suspicion that as she gets older she might create music I'm more interested in - to me shows some signs of possible ability - but right now I do not fit remotely into her targeted demographic.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Well, it seems to me that, in at least a few scenes, she is dressed in a manner that is meant to evoke a style commonly associated with African-Americans. Not just that she's copying African-American music or dancing, but that she wants us to look at her image and think "Hmm, she looks kinda black there".
Which I suppose some might view as an updated version of blackface(albeit of a supposedly complimentary variety, not quite as openly degrading as Al Jolson). I'm kind of undecided about these things myself, hut you asked what I saw, so there it is.
Hmm. Interesting. It seems to me that this multi-factorial, with several different things becoming associated together. A music style gets associated with a dress style, because of the style of dress of the people who first create that style of music. The music might then go and spread, and spread a dress style with it.
There is no doubt that pop music styles have dress styles associated with them. I once saw a fascinating and hilarious online article that asked you to guess which band/singer a photographed group of people were fans of, based on what they were wearing. It really was possible.
The one I immediately picked up on was the Radiohead fans, even though I've never been to a Radiohead concert, but I do like the band a great deal. Radiohead fans dress like Radiohead do.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
You might as well say that a white rapper is being racist, as he has derived some of his style from previous black rappers. Or Elvis was racist, as he used styles from black music. This is getting barmy.
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Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
You might as well say that a white rapper is being racist, as he has derived some of his style from previous black rappers. Or Elvis was racist, as he used styles from black music. This is getting barmy.
Well, there ARE people who say that. I don't know if I would be one of them, but it is a position that some do take.
I think when it comes to illegitimate cultural appropiation, it's sort of like the old obscenity test: "I know it when I see it". The implied qualification being "...but don't ask me to explain my reasons."
I remember once, being invited to the wedding of someone who was partly of non-western parentage. Searching for a gift, I found some little statue that seemed to be from the culture in question. I thought about buying it, but then figured "Nah, I just wouldn't feel comfortable, being an outsider to that tradition, giving that gift to someone with a stronger connection than I have."
Even though if it had been the wedding of a white westerner, I probably would not have thought twice about buying the gift.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Well, it seems to me that, in at least a few scenes, she is dressed in a manner that is meant to evoke a style commonly associated with African-Americans. Not just that she's copying African-American music or dancing, but that she wants us to look at her image and think "Hmm, she looks kinda black there".
Which I suppose some might view as an updated version of blackface(albeit of a supposedly complimentary variety, not quite as openly degrading as Al Jolson). I'm kind of undecided about these things myself, hut you asked what I saw, so there it is.
Really? That triggers my 'Oh, FFS' monitor.
In each vignette she's dressed appropriate to the style of music (or rather, dance) that is being evoked. And then she shows she's crap at it but doesn't mind because she's doing her thing and having fun. If that's racist it's also classiest (ballet), cheerleaderist, technoist, swingist, popist, etc. etc.
Anyone suggesting it's racist has an over-developed sense of outrage and needs smacking with a clue stick.
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Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
You might as well say that a white rapper is being racist, as he has derived some of his style from previous black rappers. Or Elvis was racist, as he used styles from black music. This is getting barmy.
Well, there ARE people who say that. I don't know if I would be one of them, but it is a position that some do take.
I think when it comes to illegitimate cultural appropiation, it's sort of like the old obscenity test: "I know it when I see it". The implied qualification being "...but don't ask me to explain my reasons."
I remember once, being invited to the wedding of someone who was partly of non-western parentage. Searching for a gift, I found some little statue that seemed to be from the culture in question. I thought about buying it, but then figured "Nah, I just wouldn't feel comfortable, being an outsider to that tradition, giving that gift to someone with a stronger connection than I have."
Even though if it had been the wedding of a white westerner, I probably would not have thought twice about buying the gift.
Well, I think white music did appropriate elements from black music, and often failed to acknowledge this. And maybe this is still going on.
But when you get a fusion, as with Elvis, between gospel, blues, country music, bluegrass, and no doubt other genres I've forgotten, you could of course, say, ah, racist! He nicked 'Hound Dog' from Big Mama Thornton, and I wonder how much money she got from her recording.
But then what? Do I start boycotting Elvis?
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Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson
...when it comes to illegitimate cultural appropiation...
How do you tell the difference between legitimate cultural appropriation and illegitimate cultural appropriation? Is there such a thing as legitimate cultural appropriation?
Moo
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
I'd say that illegitimate cultural appropriation is when you try to copy that culture without knowing anything about or caring.
For instance, I live in a super diverse neighborhood and among other things I see people with hijabs. I would say that if I put a cloth on my head and told my friends I had got one of those "new fashionable hats like Salaah always wears" they might well find it a bit offensive. If I refused to listen to their explanation, it would be very clearly illegitimate cultural appropriation. On the other hand, I have been prayed over with sage by a Native American friend. I found it very meaningful, but wouldn't want to do it myself. Still, if I asked her to teach me the prayer she had done, I suspect she would, and would consider it fully legitimate appropriation.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I fail to see a problem with wearing a headscarf just because you like the look of headscarves.
Queen Elizabeth II does. That occurred to me the other day, in the midst of all the anti-Muslim rubbish that's been going on.
The fact that a headscarf has a particular symbolic meaning to some people does not mean that a headscarf is inherently symbolic.
Any more, incidentally, than the fact that fried chicken has a racial meaning in the USA means that it has the same meaning for everyone. When I eat KFC or tuck into a watermelon, I'm oblivious to it having a racial meaning - or was, until Americans taught me otherwise.
And a surprising percentage of the world's population wearing neckties are not, in fact, Croatian. But that's where the word 'cravat' comes from. We all do a myriad things that don't have the same meaning for us that they did for someone else in the mists of time. I fail to see that it's mandatory for us to maintain the meaning as well as the activity.
[ 11. October 2014, 12:33: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
It's up to you know, actual black people to comment on the racism (or not) of something, and for white people to listen. White people don't know shit about experiencing racism therefore need to listen to people who do.
I am not black, therefore cannot comment fully, but there IS a long history of white artists using black people as props within their music, and appropriating black culture for 'art'. Both those things are racist. 'Admiration' does not cancel out the racism of cultural appropriation, since good intentions do not erase the harm that the racism causes. Black people are not inspiration repositories but actual people.
I strongly suggest that white people do not harp on about how things are clearly not racist, since they do not experience racism in the first place and so cannot speak from actual experience. How about, you know, asking actual black people? Or would that be confronting your own white privilege a bit too much?
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Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
but there IS a long history of white artists using black people as props within their music,
Have you watched the video? I challenge you to find a set of black people as props. I asked about a specific video. One that does not have a single scene of a cast of black back-ups supporting a white lead.
quote:
and appropriating black culture for 'art'. Both those things are racist.
WHY? WHY is it racist to adopt something that you've seen or heard just because the people you've adopted it from are a different race?. The history of art is all about adoption of things. Why is this okay so long as I adopt from someone that has the same outward appearance from me, but suddenly becomes an awful thing if the other person looks different?
Is it not THAT LABEL of race as important that is racist?
You've leapt straight from "there's a difference in race" to "therefore it's racist", and you've missed all the steps in between that establish that race was actually a determinative factor in the act. All you've done is establish correlation and ignored whether there's causation.
[ 11. October 2014, 13:14: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I'm with Orfeo on this one. This isn't a singer I know anything about. But, having watched the video, anyone who takes offence is someone who goes round digging up excuses to be offended. If there was any validity in that complain, the ballet world, dancing dads and shambling geeks should be complaining as well.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
And now I feel motivated enough to tackle the even more objectional parts of that post...
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
It's up to you know, actual black people to comment on the racism (or not) of something, and for white people to listen.
To say that white people can't talk about it all is itself a racist position.
quote:
I am not black, therefore cannot comment fully,
And yet, after hinting that everyone else on this thread should just shut up, you felt it was okay for you to comment anyway.
quote:
I strongly suggest that white people do not harp on about how things are clearly not racist, since they do not experience racism in the first place and so cannot speak from actual experience. How about, you know, asking actual black people? Or would that be confronting your own white privilege a bit too much?
I strongly suggest you tell me where I can find a single thing in my opening post that makes any assumption about the skin colour of people on the Ship. Including my own. I am of wonderfully pasty pale English stock, actually, but did you know that, or did you just assume it?
And did you just assume that the Ship consists of nothing but white people? Because I know for a fact that it doesn't.
Did it ever occur to you that I'd be interested in comments from black Shipmates? No, you decided that, while white people aren't allowed to speak, it was perfectly fine for YOU to get on a moral high horse on behalf of black people.
The hypocrisy of your position is frankly breathtaking. If you actually believed that it was up to black people to comment on these things, you would go and send private message to black Shipmates and invite them to come join this thread. But instead we get your non-black opinion.
[ 11. October 2014, 13:34: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Hilda of Whitby
Shipmate
# 7341
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Posted
Google "swaggerjacking".
There was a really excellent article about this phenomenon in a blog in the Washington Post back in 2012. The article is DC-centric, but the underlying idea is applicable anywhere--whites expropriating elements of black (or other minority) culture in a lame attempt at street cred and keeping it real.
Taylor Swift has about as much street cred as Barbara Cartland.
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Posts: 412 | From: Nickel City | Registered: Jun 2004
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Hilda, but isn't that the point? She's not appropriating it, and she's not claiming street cred. Any more than she's appropriating ballet and claiming to be a member of the Bolshoi.
I fully accept that there is a lot of racist , sexist and other-ist stuff out there. But to claim that video is racist is as bad as casting out the Demon of Sneezing and the Spirit of Calorific Oppression. It also belittles and damages the fight against actual racist crap, as it encourages people to dismiss the whole argument. As does the painfully right-on and po-faced approach of Pomona, with whom I generally agree in sentiment if not expression. People need to stop looking to be outraged, and get outraged by the actually outrageous.
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Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:
Google "swaggerjacking".
There was a really excellent article about this phenomenon in a blog in the Washington Post back in 2012. The article is DC-centric, but the underlying idea is applicable anywhere--whites expropriating elements of black (or other minority) culture in a lame attempt at street cred and keeping it real.
Taylor Swift has about as much street cred as Barbara Cartland.
But is appropriation in a lame attempt to get street cred the same thing as racism? Lame doesn't equate with racism in my view. Lame is, well, lame-- a pathetic, transparent attempt to be cool (something I know far too much about). But not racism. Unless you're talking about coolness as a racial stereotype?
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Hilda of Whitby
Shipmate
# 7341
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Posted
quote:
Unless you're talking about coolness as a racial stereotype?
Bingo.
Swift's video is swaggerjacking; I think it's offensive as well as lame. Doubtless she thinks it's just another career move.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
It's up to you know, actual black people to comment on the racism (or not) of something, and for white people to listen. White people don't know shit about experiencing racism therefore need to listen to people who do.
This attitude is nonsense.
I will happily agree that white people don't usually have much to say about what it's like to experience racism, because generally speaking, they don't, and if they do occasionally meet racial prejudice, it's notable because it's unusual.
But that's different from asking whether X is racist (or sexist, or homophobic, or ...) Whether a particular action is, in fact, something-ist is not a question that belongs solely to the supposed victim, or to others who share his skin tone, culture, religion, sexuality or whatever.
Consider the discussion that we had about the use of the word "niggardly". The fact that a black person hears a white person use that word and thinks that it is related to a similar-sounding word, and therefore racist, doesn't make the act racist. It means that some people are going to interpret it as racist, and so take offense, and it is entirely reasonable to advise people to be careful about the use of that word for fear of giving unintended offense. And, of course, it's perfectly possible to intend a racist epithet when using that word (cf. calling a police officer "Cunt-stable").
But the idea that only black people can decide whether a particular behaviour is racist is nonsense.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I don't know, one way of looking at it is this. In the video she tries to immerse herself in different subcultures. White culture is represented by ballet and theatre classes, black subculture is represented by twerking. They could have represented it with something else.
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Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't know, one way of looking at it is this. In the video she tries to immerse herself in different subcultures. White culture is represented by ballet and theatre classes, black subculture is represented by twerking. They could have represented it with something else.
And that leaves a whole bunch of other scenes in the video that you haven't assigned a race to.
That's one of the things that really bothers me here. Take one scene and shout "that's the black scene", what does that say about the other scenes? Why take one scene and declare IT to be racially based? Especially when it's incredibly obvious that the women in the scene are a range of different colours?
But, gasp, they're all women. There is actually more gender division in the video than there is racial division.
[ 11. October 2014, 16:19: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The history of art is all about adoption of things. Why is this okay so long as I adopt from someone that has the same outward appearance from me, but suddenly becomes an awful thing if the other person looks different?
Doesn't it depend on the meaning of whatever is being appropriated?
If a group of artists from one particular cultural background start using a particular style in their paintings, and I find that style attractive and start to use it, I'm not being racist, even though I come from a different culture.
If what I do is produce a pastiche of that style of art that is intended to mock the style and the culture that produced it, it probably is racist.
Or perhaps the artistic style has some special significance for the culture that produced it, and the way I am using it could be seen as insulting. I would imagine, for example, that most Maori would take a pretty dim view of a group of US cheerleaders incorporating the Ka Mate haka into their routine.
[ 11. October 2014, 16:20: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I entirely agree that appropriation with the intention to mock is a problem. But surely it's just as much of a problem if I set out to mock someone with the same skin tone.
Or do I get clear run at mocking country and western because they're "my people"?
[ 11. October 2014, 16:27: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Can I also just say, I find it tremendously hard to reconcile the apparent desire in some quarters for cultural purity on this topic, such that appropriation is racist, with the thread in Hell on the UKIP where it's racist to advocate keeping people separate.
Which is it? Is it good to intermingle with other cultures and learn things, or is it bad? Should I not cook Italian food because I'm not Italian?
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I entirely agree that appropriation with the intention to mock is a problem. But surely it's just as much of a problem if I set out to mock someone with the same skin tone.
Or do I get clear run at mocking country and western because they're "my people"?
And here the point seems to be self-deprecating. She is attempting to "swaggerjack" (as well as "pliejack" and "MarthaGrahamjack" or whatever the dance equivalents might be) and demonstrating precisely how lame it is.
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Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:
quote:
Unless you're talking about coolness as a racial stereotype?
Bingo.
Swift's video is swaggerjacking; I think it's offensive as well as lame. Doubtless she thinks it's just another career move.
The entire point of the video is that she's NOT cool. In every scene, she fails to fit in with the people who know what they are doing.
(Bit of a cross post. Snap. The only person mocked in this Taylor Swift video is Taylor Swift. )
[ 11. October 2014, 16:43: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
'Admiration' does not cancel out the racism of cultural appropriation, since good intentions do not erase the harm that the racism causes.
Should white people stop eating with chop sticks?
Should Indians be forbidden from holding a knife and fork at the dinner table?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Can I also just say, I find it tremendously hard to reconcile the apparent desire in some quarters for cultural purity on this topic, such that appropriation is racist, with the thread in Hell on the UKIP where it's racist to advocate keeping people separate.
Which is it? Is it good to intermingle with other cultures and learn things, or is it bad? Should I not cook Italian food because I'm not Italian?
It's probably wrong to diss Italian food if you're not Italian, which ought to rule out the 'Hawaiian' pizza.
(eta: pizza)
[ 11. October 2014, 16:54: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
I forced myself to watch the video so I could have an informed opinion of the subject even though I change the station every time it comes on the radio.
It might have been worth it for the laugh at the end.
Anyone want to place any bets on whether or not this video goes up against a Beyonce video in this years Video Music Awards? (I don't even know what Beyonce's put out this year).
(And to answer the question in the OP, I'd say this is another episode of the Offenderati Strike Back).
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Maybe I'm just a naive Aussie who knows nothing about racial politics in other countries
Further to Gwai and LeRoc's post above. There is obviously going to be a spectrum of imitation that runs from acceptable to unacceptable (blacking up being at the latter end of the spectrum). Off hand the first Aussie who springs to mind that may be towards the latter end would be Iggy Azalea.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Simple point.
Going back to the question in the headnote of this thread, and leaving aside for a moment the more general discussion, are we all agreed that the answer to that question is 'No'?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Swift's vid does not come across as racist to me, and I can be classified as fairly sensitive to this issue.
The only section which is not multi-ethnic is the ballet, but it is tough to find much melanin in that genre. It is slowly changing, though.
Cultural appropriation is a real thing, but I don't see it here.
quote:
Originally posted by Ann:
Here's one man's answer to cultural appropriation - someone who should have the right to his opinion.
Brilliant vid! Very balanced view.
Early Rock'n Roll often straight-up stole from black culture. And in a way that disadvantaged the people stolen from.
Hip hop, though, has been a much more balanced evolution, IMO. The Beastie Boys, for example. Their music borrowed from Hip-Hop without theft. They helped make Hip-Hop the mainstream phenomenon that it is. Symbiotic, rather than parasitic. And this is the difference, though it is not always clear.
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
I do remember the furore over the infinitely more talented Lorde and her single Royals last year. I remember thinking the reasoning that the song was racist was dumber than shit at the time. I still do.
Sorry. Best I can do.
This one is more nuanced. Is she slagging off black folk or hip-hop/pop materialism? On first hearing, I could not tell. I don't think the racist inference is dumb as much as it is an assumption.
Lorde's own response is this:
quote:
I mean, it’s one thing for kids who fight in the comments section of YouTube and who use ‘gay’ as an insult to take offense at what you’re doing; but when it’s highly intelligent writers, all of whom you respect, you start to question what you’re doing and if you have done something wrong. I have grown up in a time when rap music is pop music, and I do think people were maybe a little bit selective about the parts of that song they used to make those arguments, because a lot of it is examples of rock excess, or just standard pop culture ‘rich kids of Instagram’-type excess. But I’m glad that people are having discussions about it and informing me about it. Also, I wrote that song a few months into being 15, and now I’m a 17-year-old looking back on that, and I didn’t know then what I know now, so I kind of am not too hard on myself.
link
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This one is more nuanced. Is she slagging off black folk or hip-hop/pop materialism? On first hearing, I could not tell. I don't think the racist inference is dumb as much as it is an assumption.
I've heard the song about a billion times as it's very popular in my area. Given that the author is from New Zealand, I always thought it was slagging off Americans and the fact that so much media and pop music is about a lifestyle that is unattainable to the majority of people who listen to the music.
And as an American I'm OK with that. Mostly because I get sick of being told that I should be aspiring to imitate a British Royal Wedding among other things.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
That's one of the things that really bothers me here. Take one scene and shout "that's the black scene", what does that say about the other scenes? Why take one scene and declare IT to be racially based?
Actually, if Le Roc is correctly reading her intentions then that is the best evidence that she's being racist. If SHE intends that to be "the black scene" then yeah that is racist--all black people are represented by that--WAY way more problematic than the dance.
Well, I don't see any evidence she intends it as the black scene. Surely if she did she would have ensured the dancers were actually black.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Watched it. Catchy tune. Doesn't seem particularly racist to me.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
I do remember the furore over the infinitely more talented Lorde and her single Royals last year. I remember thinking the reasoning that the song was racist was dumber than shit at the time. I still do.
Sorry. Best I can do.
This one is more nuanced. Is she slagging off black folk or hip-hop/pop materialism? On first hearing, I could not tell. I don't think the racist inference is dumb as much as it is an assumption.
Lorde's own response is this:
quote:
I mean, it’s one thing for kids who fight in the comments section of YouTube and who use ‘gay’ as an insult to take offense at what you’re doing; but when it’s highly intelligent writers, all of whom you respect, you start to question what you’re doing and if you have done something wrong. I have grown up in a time when rap music is pop music, and I do think people were maybe a little bit selective about the parts of that song they used to make those arguments, because a lot of it is examples of rock excess, or just standard pop culture ‘rich kids of Instagram’-type excess. But I’m glad that people are having discussions about it and informing me about it. Also, I wrote that song a few months into being 15, and now I’m a 17-year-old looking back on that, and I didn’t know then what I know now, so I kind of am not too hard on myself.
link
That's probably fair enough. Like Lorde, I'm not from the US, and when I heard the song (which I loved, and still do), African-American hip-hop did not occur to me at all. I guess my first thought was of the anachronism also known as the British royal family, and the queen who is still inexplicably head of state down under.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Eric Clapton has put more money in black musicians pockets than pretty much any other post-war musician that I know of.
How racist.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
orfeo: And that leaves a whole bunch of other scenes in the video that you haven't assigned a race to.
I'm not sure if I need to. There isn't a 1:1 correspondence, but some scenes in the video seem to depict scenes that are more closely linked to white culture (for example the ballet) and some scenes are more closely linked to black culture (for example the breakdance). Probably some other scenes are somewhere in between.
There is only one thing in the video that I find vulgar. And it just happens to be in a scene that is connected to black subculture.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Eric Clapton has put more money in black musicians pockets than pretty much any other post-war musician that I know of.
How racist.
Muddy Waters, Where's that?
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Eric Clapton has put more money in black musicians pockets than pretty much any other post-war musician that I know of.
How racist.
He made more playing their songs than any of them did. Of the Three Kings of Blues Guitar, all of which influenced Clapton, Hendrix, Vaughn, etc, only BB King made enough to be considered truly successful. Not at their level, though, and with much struggle.
But it is really a mixed bag. Between outright theft, mutual aid and massive support.
By and large, though, white musicians made much more money than their black influences/sources/victims/friends. Cultural appropriation, cultural appreciation and a mix of the two.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Being dependent on rural internet just now, cannot watch the video. However, I will note that It seems routine to appropriate North American Indian culture and items without so much as a thought. But an additional however would pertain to where in the world you are. It would extremely appropriate to dress up for Halloween as an Indian here, but probably merely borderline poor taste to dress "Islamic". Oddly, First Nations youth (the generally accepted term for North American Indians in Canada) often dress in the clothes of black American rap artists and adopt some of the language and mannerisms as well.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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