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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Terrorist attack on french satirical magazine. Why
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
Possibly so. My fear, though, is that we're in for even more servility in the name of accommodation.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I have a horrible suspicion that what is going on with all these people is that really they are just the same as the sort who carry out school shootings, but have found what seems to them to be a guilt squashing self persuasion for it.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
And how were they able to subvert France's regulations against such firearms? Incredible.
Good thing none of the victims had their own firearm available or there is no telling how many more people could have been killed.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Good thing none of the victims had their own firearm available or there is no telling how many more people could have been killed.
Probably hundreds ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
And how were they able to subvert France's regulations against such firearms? Incredible.
Good thing none of the victims had their own firearm available or there is no telling how many more people could have been killed.
I'm glad our secretary packs heat.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Amazing! Back to the Dead Horse in all but name in just a handful of posts.
For what it's worth I reckon these jihadists (I'm pretty sure that's what they are) simply want to worsen relations between ethnic and religious groups. It's simple enough anyway, but this gives another push.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ikkyu
Shipmate
# 15207
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Posted
They want to produce an over reaction from the authorities as a recruiting tool. They want "us"
vs "them". No middle ground.
Posts: 434 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Barbarism and attitudes which belong to the Dark Ages meet modern communications and weapons ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I have a horrible suspicion that what is going on with all these people is that really they are just the same as the sort who carry out school shootings, but have found what seems to them to be a guilt squashing self persuasion for it.
I had an interesting conversation with a westernized Moslem some years ago. What was said stuck with me. He referred to the western soldiers coming to villages, and to the dropping of bombs intended to kill the insurgents. He had experience of collateral damage to people who were not combatants, insurgents or irregular soldiers. The killed in his experience included some relatives, and included children. He thought it was rather odd that western countries would be surprised by the killing of people within our countries. He was clear that combatants should be targetted; troublingly, his discussion also included that the Pentagon attack on 11 Sept 2001 was entirely reasonable, though the civilian targets were not.
The Paris attacks are not within the bounds of his discussion, but I found myself in difficulty responding to his tit-for-tat idea of returning suffering, killing and violence to us, and the implied necessity to bring civilian suffering to western countries as suggested within human reciprocity. Not having the military apparatus to drop bombs, the countries we bomb were said to need to use resources at hand, including persons resident within our countries who were 'enlightened' enough to do so.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
European security forces 'pack heat' too - there was a gun battle with the attackers outside the newspaper offices. Unfortunately, unlike in Hollywood films, the bad guys were quicker on the draw ...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
If you 'give' us Paris, we can 'give' you Ferguson and any other number of appalling US firearms incidents - both civilian and involving the security forces.
But this isn't a time for cross-Pond point scoring, it's a time for mourning and reflection.
What did the terrorists want to achieve?
Well, according to reports I've read on the BBC online they were heard to shout that 'Mohammed had been avenged' - so partly it was undoubtedly a visceral form of protest at what they've taken as unforgivable insults against their faith.
I'd also suggest that part of the reason was also to divide people and get them arguing among themselves. As we could potentially do on this thread if we indulge in Dead House type one-up-manship about whose gun laws are the best - and I'll readily admit that I've been as guilty of that as others ...
What do the terrorists expect to achieve?
Well, terror, disruption, fear ...
All these things and more. They are driven by the kind of fear and intolerance on which fundamentalism thrives.
It's another sad day.
For the victims and all caught up in this tragedy ...
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I've altered my opinion on this particular incident, having read, from someone who seemed to know of what he spoke, that they moved like "professionals" and could handle the weapons, apparently not easy to master, with the skill to place successive shots close together.
Worrying.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Hmmm ... from what I've been told though, it doesn't take a great deal of skill to use a Kalashnikov in a confined space - which is what I'm assuming the killers were using. We'll have to wait and see what comes out of the investigation.
The fact that they were able to escape so readily is worrying though - but then, it's not as if these incidents happen every day. This is France's worst terrorist incident since 1961 - although that was a bomb on a train and not a shooting incident.
I agree it's a worrying development, though, it obviously required meticulous planning and wasn't any kind of random incident but a highly planned and targeted one.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If you 'give' us Paris, we can 'give' you Ferguson
Sort of apples and oranges there….
In Ferguson, a violent criminal and drug user assaulted a police officer and was justifiably killed.
In Paris, 12 innocent people were systematically targeted and killed by religious fanatics with illegal weapons.
In Ferguson, the proper and legal use of a firearm prevented a criminal from continuing to victimize innocent people in his community.
In Paris, the cop executed on the sidewalk was either unarmed, separated from his weapon, or never drew it in the first place.
No cross-pond points attempted here, but more legal weapons in the area could only have helped.
It is a sad day for Paris, and every freedom loving person in the world.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Even if Ferguson were a bad example I could give you plenty of others ... not to mention all the statistics about accidental deaths from legally held firearms in the US.
But that's not the point here.
I'm not taking a cheap swipe at the 2nd Amendment. It made sense in a US context when it was made. Whether it still makes sense - at least as it's currently applied - is a moot point and one for you guys to decide not us over here.
We have different systems - and we need to respect those.
I'd respect your 2nd Amendment more if you didn't presume to tell us that we ought to have more legal firearms on the streets, just as I'm sure you'd respect European views more if we didn't presume to tell you how to run your affairs.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
We don't yet know if the shooters were actually Moslems. They may well have been, but anyone can say the appropriate things. Sometimes, people want to stir things up for other reasons than the obvious.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Good thing none of the victims had their own firearm available or there is no telling how many more people could have been killed.
Probably hundreds
2 of the victims were French cops.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Are French police routinely armed?
I know that the majority of British police are not.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I'm not intending to say much about this, at least for now, but here's my €0,02 worth.
This attack is fundamentally political. It is only religious inasmuch as the relgious rhetoric serves a political cause. Misunderstanding this is perilous.
The target is political in that it embodies a bulwark of democracy: free speech.
Unlike random attacks by people with religious mania or other pathologies, the attack demonstrates considerable strategy, both in the choice of target, its symbolic importance and the arguments it will generate, and in its execution.
While it is despicable, as no prophet's flag is set so... has said above, there is a certain rationale about it when seen, as its perpetrators allegedly claimed, as an act of vengeance. I'm not going to detail examples, but Western societies could do with taking a long, hard look at all their own practices, especially in foreign theatres, before clambering on to the moral high ground in this respect.
It is our authorities' worst nightmare come true: the tactics of urban guerilla warfare, implemented I would guess by battle-hardened individuals, on Western streets.
Anyone who thinks this could have been stopped by putting sufficient firepower in the hands of law enforcement or even members of the public does not understand the first thing about the dynamics of assymetric warfare. The attackers would have simply chosen another, bigger, equally unexpected weapon - as they did for 9-11.
What matters to them is not the overall body count or the firepower but maximising impact with the most effective use of the required resources, which again shows the refinement of their strategic thinking.
The choice of target embodies the core aim of terror: intimidating into silence. No ideology has the monopoly on this aim. Again, I leave it to readers to consider other agencies that pursue this aim; there are plenty of them.
In the meantime, prayers for my adopted country are appreciated. The challenges for the Church to react as it should to this are huge.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
These terrorists were highly trained Gamaliel. Firing an AK in a crowed room, including your fellow murderers, without marksmanship and not countering the pull, as Samuel L. knew, will kill every ... body in the room.
Furthermore the grouping on the police car window is very good.
As to why? Open societies are offensive in every way.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
[x post]
As far as I know, it definitely makes me nervous when over there. Though they also have different types of police and I think there are some distinctions. Definitely some are, and I think it's explicit from the report that the cops were shooting back, but I'll leave it to someone who knows the culture more to be more clear.
(Actually British cops are becoming more armed, given my instincts when I see them at e.g. Westminster I'm surprised there hasn't been an accident)
[ 07. January 2015, 21:32: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
In Paris, the cop executed on the sidewalk was either unarmed, separated from his weapon, or never drew it in the first place.
No cross-pond points attempted here, but more legal weapons in the area could only have helped.
And what's the basis of your reasoning? That if enough people were around with weapons (which of course, starts off by presuming there are lots and lots of people just hanging around on the right street), that at least one of them would have had time to (1) figure out what was going on, and (2) draw their weapon and fire ACCURATELY before being shot themselves?
Are you basically arguing that sheer weight of numbers would win the day?
I don't buy it. Sure, there's some vague possibility that it would increase the chances of the gunmen being hit EVENTUALLY, but the idea that it would have stopped these guys heading into a building and executing a roomful of people is just a white-hat fantasy.
Have you ever paid attention to the stories about Columbine? It took time to work out what was going on. Even when there armed law enforcement, they didn't know how many shooters there were, who they were (students!), and so on.
It's simply not the case that having a gun immediately empowers you to figure out how to use it. It doesn't tell you where to point it. It doesn't provide you with perfect aim in a surprise situation.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
Must this turn into a gun debate? Some mass shootings are stopped in their tracks with legal weapons (like the 07 Colorado church shooting), many aren't, including this massacre (French police are routinely armed). There's so many variables that sweeping conclusions can't be drawn.
More relevant is the loss of life, what this says about extremist tactics, and how liberal democracies can defend themselves against people who despise all they stand for.
Je Suis Charlie.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
By not being offensive.
Je suis Muslim.
[ 07. January 2015, 21:57: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
By not being offensive.
Je suis Muslim.
Islam offends me. Does that mean Muslims have to drop it?
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
By not being offensive.
Je suis Muslim.
No.
As outlined in Hell, while I believe it is legitimate to impose at least some restrictions on the capacity of people to be offensive, the remedy against someone who causes offense is an angry letter, a boycott or a defamation case.
Executing offensive people is never, ever going to be an acceptable response to their offensiveness. Even if the staff of this magazine did publish something that genuinely caused offence to ordinary Muslims, there is absolutely no way that they should face the possibility of dying for it.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
As outlined in Hell, while I believe it is legitimate to impose at least some restrictions on the capacity of people to be offensive, the remedy against someone who causes offense is an angry letter, a boycott or a defamation case.
I can understand you writing an angry letter or boycotting me if I offend you but not a defamation case. There would be no reason for government to get involved, especially if what offends you is my honestly held belief.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
By not being offensive.
Je suis Muslim.
Islam offends me. Does that mean Muslims have to drop it?
But does Islam bring you shame? That's the major paradigm shift between western culture and Muslim/Middle Eastern culture: right vs. wrong in the west and honor vs. shame in the ME.
This publication shamed Mohammed, the attackers thought they were restoring honor to him.
Truly a horrible event, prayers for all affected and for the country of France.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
But does Islam bring you shame? That's the major paradigm shift between western culture and Muslim/Middle Eastern culture: right vs. wrong in the west and honor vs. shame in the ME.
This publication shamed Mohammed, the attackers thought they were restoring honor to him.
Wow. I doubt I could get my head around such a thought process where doing something like that would bring honor to something I valued.
The Amish look better every day.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
But does Islam bring you shame? That's the major paradigm shift between western culture and Muslim/Middle Eastern culture: right vs. wrong in the west and honor vs. shame in the ME.
This publication shamed Mohammed, the attackers thought they were restoring honor to him.
Wow. I doubt I could get my head around such a thought process where doing something like that would bring honor to something I valued.
The Amish look better every day.
Indeed.
But the sad truth is that there are a lot of people in the ME who still consider murder to be an acceptable form of restoring honor: hence the honor killings that still take place.
Having spent a considerable amount of time living in Turkey within Turkish culture, I can 'wrap my head around' the thought process a little more readily.
I certainly don't condone killing to restore honor, but (without wishing to launch into another 12 page debate like we did for Terry Jones) I do think that in a world increasingly connected with information technology we are going to have to find a way to 'make this work'.
I don't know what that is, but viciously attacking Mohammed must be understood to be a dangerous endeavor and I would not encourage anyone to do for the sake of artistic ideology without being aware of the very real danger involved.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
As outlined in Hell, while I believe it is legitimate to impose at least some restrictions on the capacity of people to be offensive, the remedy against someone who causes offense is an angry letter, a boycott or a defamation case.
I can understand you writing an angry letter or boycotting me if I offend you but not a defamation case. There would be no reason for government to get involved, especially if what offends you is my honestly held belief.
I am being deliberately vague and general and just pointing out examples of restrictions on freedom of speech. I am also being very general about what is 'offensive'. I certainly see capacity for an overlap between what is offensive and what is defamatory, but of course an action for defamation must be brought by the person defamed. I am not suggesting it is applicable to insults to the Prophet.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
An unanswered question is why we seem to need to be in conflict with Islam at all.
But I think the thing is mislabelled as Islam, just as it was when the demon was communism. It's really about economics, same as it ever was, and who will export resources to whom and who get to keep the cash.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by irish_lord99 quote:
This publication shamed Mohammed, the attackers thought they were restoring honor to him.
1. The cartoons in question didn't 'shame' Mohammed, they poked fun.
2. You are guessing the motives of the attackers - the only reported words they spoke were 'Allahu akbar' (God is great) and requests to know if they were in the right offices.
The OP asked 'Why?'
The answer is that, in stark contrast to the two other religions 'of the book' Islam has been moving steadily backwards for the past 400 years and the pace has accelerated in the last 100.
What do I mean by that? Well, up to the 13th/14th centuries there was discussion among Islamic scholars about the meaning of sections of the Koran and in some centres, notably Aleppo and Damascus, interpretation of some sections was open to debate, and in the Al-Azhar in Cairo scholarship and philosophical debate around the Koran flourished, although it became more restricted after the fall of the Ismaili tradition.
However, the real damage has been done by the spread of Wahhabism which has had the backing of almost limitless funds from the house of Saud. Latterly they are beginning to realise they have unleashed a whirlwind but there is a strong strand in the kingdom which doesn't see this as a bad thing. Now we have other gulf states providing funding and comfort to groups like Hamas and ISIS.
As for anyone questioning whether or not there is a need to 'confront' Islam, I'd have thought the answer was now obvious even to those of ultra pacifist bent: unless and until people in the countries like the US, France, UK, etc, stop tiptoeing around the state sponsorship of movements like Hamas and ISIS by the oil-rich states there is no incentive on them to put their house in order, starting with the way their own people are denied basic human rights and then moving onto their preparedness to sanction terrorism against anyone not of their belief.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
I have no wish to be in conflict with any religion or its believers. Conflict drags.
But a pluralist society demands mutual tolerance. If any group, or (more commonly) a subset of one, tries to impose its views on the rest, it must be stopped.
There's some clever-clever rejoinder about the supposed paradox of refusing to tolerate the intolerant, which I can argue through well enough, but right now, I'm not so inclined. Let's just say that the constitution isn't a suicide pact.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by irish_lord99 quote:
This publication shamed Mohammed, the attackers thought they were restoring honor to him.
1. The cartoons in question didn't 'shame' Mohammed, they poked fun.
You're applying a western filter to what was published. Depicting Mohammed at all is shaming him.
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
2. You are guessing the motives of the attackers - the only reported words they spoke were 'Allahu akbar' (God is great) and requests to know if they were in the right offices.
The OP asked 'Why?'
Yeah, it's speculation, but pretty good speculation, and the OP did ask 'why' which is why I answered with what my experience would point to.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
[...] Depicting Mohammed at all is shaming him. [...]
It's an opinion. To be expressed vehemently but peacefully. If anyone decides to drop the peaceful limb, it ceases to be an opinion, and society must do all in its power to restrain them. For a free society to exist, the right to speak your mind without fear of violent reprisal must be non-negotiable.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I do think that in a world increasingly connected with information technology we are going to have to find a way to 'make this work'.
I don't know what that is, but viciously attacking Mohammed must be understood to be a dangerous endeavor and I would not encourage anyone to do for the sake of artistic ideology without being aware of the very real danger involved.
I see it in the reverse. If attacking Mohammed is a dangerous endeavor, then Islam is a dangerous ideology.
Who was it here on the ship who first said something like "being willing to suffer for your beliefs is called faithfulness but making others suffer for your beliefs is called being a jerk"? Whoever said it is spot on, istm.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
For a free society to exist, the right to speak your mind without fear of violent reprisal must be non-negotiable.
Sums it up for me. Anything short of that is to forbid honesty.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I do think that in a world increasingly connected with information technology we are going to have to find a way to 'make this work'.
I don't know what that is, but viciously attacking Mohammed must be understood to be a dangerous endeavor and I would not encourage anyone to do for the sake of artistic ideology without being aware of the very real danger involved.
I see it in the reverse. If attacking Mohammed is a dangerous endeavor, then Islam is a dangerous ideology.
Well, to clarify, it's not a dangerous endeavor because of Islam proper, but because of the possible response from radical or fundamentalist Islam.
Other than that, I don't disagree with your point. That doesn't mean it's still not dangerous.
Lets put it this way: if there is a dark alley on the 'wrong side of town' with lots of gang activity, I'm not going to walk down that alley. Now, legally, ideologically, morally, I have the right to walk down that alley unharassed. And maybe the first couple of times I won't get mugged, but eventually...
We try and create a free society, yes, but we need to be realistic about the world we live in.
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
If anyone decides to drop the peaceful limb, it ceases to be an opinion, and society must do all in its power to restrain them.
I've no ideological quarrel with that statement, but what actually, practically do you propose we do? Bombs, drones and sanctions don't seem to be working.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
2. You are guessing the motives of the attackers - the only reported words they spoke were 'Allahu akbar' (God is great) and requests to know if they were in the right offices.
Not so. They are also reported to have referred to avenging the Prophet.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Lets put it this way: if there is a dark alley on the 'wrong side of town' with lots of gang activity, I'm not going to walk down that alley.
And then the question becomes "is it important that you are able to walk down that alley?"
If we're talking about one isolated alley in a place where nobody really wants to go, perhaps its not worth getting too excited about.
If we're talking about many such alleys, or a spreading area full of bad alleys, then we get "reclaim the night" marches and such, and we increase police patrols in the area of the bad alleys, we install better street lights, and generally try to make life difficult for alley-lurkers.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Lets put it this way: if there is a dark alley on the 'wrong side of town' with lots of gang activity, I'm not going to walk down that alley.
And then the question becomes "is it important that you are able to walk down that alley?"
If we're talking about one isolated alley in a place where nobody really wants to go, perhaps its not worth getting too excited about.
If we're talking about many such alleys, or a spreading area full of bad alleys, then we get "reclaim the night" marches and such, and we increase police patrols in the area of the bad alleys, we install better street lights, and generally try to make life difficult for alley-lurkers.
Fair enough, which leads me back to "What actual, practical solutions do you propose to this problem?"
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Fair enough, which leads me back to "What actual, practical solutions do you propose to this problem?"
A good public education campaign along the lines of "fuck 'em if they can't take a joke".
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It might help to include in the proposed public education good info about the conditions in Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan. It is not a joke there.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
It might help to include in the proposed public education good info about the conditions in Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan. It is not a joke there.
No, it sure isn't. My proposal was more for those in the west.
In addition to the first one, maybe a "Let me be honest" campaign to remind folks that it is okay to be honest about what you believe.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
To the extent that this is actually about the Muslim imagery taboo (which AIUI extends to just about every created thing, and not just the Prophet):
Could the offended feelings be channeled into letters to the editor, or some such? Something that the particular Western culture could permit? I'd suggest a graffiti wall, where the offended people could draw angry murals, except that would involve them breaking the imagery rule. Heck, maybe stand-up comedy.
May sound silly. Just trying to find a way through that lets them express their feelings without violence.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
The implicit idea that if something can be labelled a 'joke' then (1) it shouldn't be taken seriously, or (2) it can't be harmful is problematic to say the least.
The fact is, jokes are tailored for particular audiences, and there are plenty of people out there who find the suffering of others to be amusing, from school bullies onwards.
But 'jokes' frequently leak from that audience that found it funny and end up with other hearers. This is even more the case in our interconnected world.
Heck, I very much wanted to have a "fuck 'em if they can't take a joke" attitude towards Americans who decided that an amusing Australian KFC ad was offensively racist, on account of connotations that would never occur to the Australians and West Indians involved in making the ad. And that was a case where there was absolutely no malicious barb in the joke, no intentional edge to it.
That didn't stop Americans from getting upset and succeeding in getting the ad withdrawn.
Describing something as a joke, and so putting all the blame on the listener for 'not getting it', doesn't really solve the fact that a listener heard it a certain way. And while you can't necessarily anticipate every way that a listener might hear you (I'm pretty certain no-one anticipated the American reaction to the KFC ad), you can't completely absolve yourself of responsibility for taking into account FORESEEABLE cases of upset just by saying you were trying to be funny.
None of which means that being upset/offended justifies a lethal reaction.
But total dismissal of the emotional upset of others as a result of one's actions is basically sociopathic behaviour. It's not caring how you affect others.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
While it would be a gross insult to suggest that the majority of Muslims are terrorists, it's a fact that the majority of terrorists are Muslims, at least in the conflicts we get to hear about. This suggests that, even if Islam could be said to stand for peace, there's an evil ideology in there somewhere, for it to spawn such sick behaviour. I'm generally tolerant of all religions, because I believe they all may have something to teach us, but Islam is so far along a dark road at present, to make it the nuisance of the world.
There are some 6 milion Muslims in France, more than twice as many as we have in the UK, and France has a proportionately bigger problem with radicalised youth heading for places like Syria. To make it even more tragic, the perpetrators of this atrocity are French citizens who have had the benefit of growing up in a country which values democracy, freedom of speech and the rule of law. These are values we've learnt in the West through centuries of our own conflicts teaching us that it's a better way.
Many people of faith may find it offensive if a satirical magazine lampoons their religion. But where are the Christians, Jews and Buddhists terrorising cities and murdering journalists? Radical Islam has an ideology totally incompatible with our own. It's a throwback to the Dark Ages. In any and all conflicts between their warped perception of reality, and our well trodden paths of freedom, we must never let them win, because our way is better. If moderate Islam genuinely deplores this behaviour, as its leaders often claim, it must do more than pay lip service to its condemnation. It must root it out and cooperate with the authorities in those countries whose values have given its people a better life than they would have had in their own countries.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
While deploring what has happened, nevertheless I also deplore the actions of people who think it ok to poke fun at other's beliefs whether in cartoons or a film about killing a country's leader. This is nothing to do with the right to freedom of the press etc, but rather an attempt to be deliberately provocative. Often the result is that the innocent suffer.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
If anyone decides to drop the peaceful limb, it ceases to be an opinion, and society must do all in its power to restrain them.
I've no ideological quarrel with that statement, but what actually, practically do you propose we do? Bombs, drones and sanctions don't seem to be working.
Pretty much what RAID are doing as we type, just something we shouldn't let up on.
I hope the suspects survive their attentions to experience the joys of la garde à vue dans une enquête pour terrorisme. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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