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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Terrorist attack on french satirical magazine. Why
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
Obviously this is not directly relevant to France, but it does make me wonder if the same issue exists there.
On French radio tonight the pundits were going on about how much better our European neighbours deal with this issue, which gives you some idea of the scale of the problem here.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
[ 09. January 2015, 19:42: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I keep on misreading #jesuischarlie.
Splitting after four letters instead of two.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
It is perhaps typical of France that arguments are already raging on the Intertubes, especially among Christians, about whether we are Charlie or not.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
--Re problems with South Asians brought in to lead mosques: It sounds like a Christian version might be to have a nightmare pastor/priest forced on the congregation (perhaps kept there by major donations by Concerned Individuals); to not be able to fire them; and to have this repeated in many churches in the area.
--Re historical influences: Maybe, somewhere in the deep background, the Crusades and the Moorish invasion of Europe both still cast a shadow?
ETA: I *don't* mean to blame any victims. Was just thinking that those things might make a difference to some people, in the back of their minds.
[ 09. January 2015, 20:56: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
ETA: I *don't* mean to blame any victims. Was just thinking that those things might make a difference to some people, in the back of their minds.
I don't think you are blaming victims and there are some very long memories around. I was in Tangiers recently and re-heard from several people about their feelings of some kind of Moorish ownership of Spain. Strange thing was that these were rather westernised and un-fundamentalist people who kept talking about their 800 year 'ownership' of Spain. It isn't worth taking that seriously but you are right that in the backs of some minds there are distant historical grievances,
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If you're going to label Islam as a major cause of terrorism, you're going to have to explain why terrorists don't come from Iran and don't come from Sudan.
Um, then what about Hezbollah (based in Lebanon, but funded/supported by Iran)? To say nothing of the 1979-80 hostage-taking at the U.S. Embassy in Tehran.
And what about folks like Mamdouh Mahmud Salim, a Sudanese national linked to the 1998 U.S. Embassy bombings in Africa?
This shows every sign of you not reading what I wrote, AT ALL. Did I not already mention Hezbollah?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If you're going to label Islam as a major cause of terrorism, you're going to have to explain why terrorists don't come from Iran and don't come from Sudan.
Um, then what about Hezbollah (based in Lebanon, but funded/supported by Iran)? To say nothing of the 1979-80 hostage-taking at the U.S. Embassy in Tehran.
And what about folks like Mamdouh Mahmud Salim, a Sudanese national linked to the 1998 U.S. Embassy bombings in Africa?
This shows every sign of you not reading what I wrote, AT ALL. Did I not already mention Hezbollah?
You've made a point that still makes no sense in and of itself. There is Iranian terrorism. Yet Iranian terrorists, because they are Shia, do not play a part in Al-qaeda or ISIL operations.
[ 09. January 2015, 21:43: Message edited by: Spawn ]
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
Trying to pretend that violence has nothing to do with Islam seems a hard sell given that Mohammad was involved in many violent wars to spread its belief system.
There is big difference between Jesus' life and Mohammad's.
Well, good point. Next time I meet a Muslim neighbour or friend, I shall certainly be on the look-out for that hidden revolver or grenade. The ones with beards merit particular scrutiny - perhaps a full body search?
I stated a fact. Nothing to do with Muslims, just a theological observation on their religion.
Your reply goes to illustrate the problem. To even dare to criticize any aspect of Islam is to be ridiculed with insults. There is NO reason why Islam should be exempt from the same scrutiny that any other religion or philosophy should stand up to.
If Islam is so tolerant why are so many Muslim states so intolerant ? Just this week Saudi Arabia passed the death penalty for anyone caught bringing Bibles into their country ? If we did the same and threatened to publically behead a Muslim for bringing the Koran into Britain imagine the outrage ?
SO WHY NO OUTRAGE HERE ? I'm sick and tired of being told that even to mention historical facts about the life of Mohammad is in some way an insult to Muslims. IT ISN'T !
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
I'm sick and tired of being told that even to mention historical facts about the life of Mohammad is in some way an insult to Muslims. IT ISN'T !
But people are allowed to challenge your facts in strong terms. The Ship gives us the opportunity to do so.That's what free speech is all about. Orfeo also tried earlier in this thread to pass off an academic opinion as facts. The whole point is that we need to discuss these things.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If you're going to label Islam as a major cause of terrorism, you're going to have to explain why terrorists don't come from Iran and don't come from Sudan.
Um, then what about Hezbollah (based in Lebanon, but funded/supported by Iran)? To say nothing of the 1979-80 hostage-taking at the U.S. Embassy in Tehran.
And what about folks like Mamdouh Mahmud Salim, a Sudanese national linked to the 1998 U.S. Embassy bombings in Africa?
This shows every sign of you not reading what I wrote, AT ALL. Did I not already mention Hezbollah?
You've made a point that still makes no sense in and of itself. There is Iranian terrorism. Yet Iranian terrorists, because they are Shia, do not play a part in Al-qaeda or ISIL operations.
Saying that Hezbollah is Iranian because it's funded by Iran makes no sense whatsoever. It's like saying a schoolkid participating in sport sponsored by KFC is actually Colonel Sanders.
And why is it now relevant to only talk about Al-qaeda and ISIL operations? If I get killed by a Christian terrorist or a Communist one, am I less dead? Is it less of a terrorist act if the gunman shouts "women are bitches" instead of "Allah Akbar"?
[ 09. January 2015, 22:23: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
By the way, if we're going to talk about the 1998 embassy bombings, you might want to pay attention to this (from the Wikipedia article):
quote:
The bombings were scheduled for 7 August, the eighth anniversary of the arrival of American troops in Saudi Arabia, likely a choice by Osama bin Laden.
Hmm. Something to do with the presence of foreign troops. Now where did I see that come up before?
Nope. I've lost it. It's really all about religious fanaticism. [/sarcasm]
People like bin Laden stated time and time again grievances that were geopolitical. These grievances don't justify terrorism. But neither does it make sense for these grievances to be ignored in favour of declaring that's it all just a religious culture war.
We like making it into a religious culture war, because then it can be all about how crazy these people are and the solution is entirely about them.
[ 09. January 2015, 23:03: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Hmm. Something to do with the presence of foreign troops. Now where did I see that come up before?
Nope. I've lost it. It's really all about religious fanaticism. [/sarcasm]
People like bin Laden stated time and time again grievances that were geopolitical. These grievances don't justify terrorism. But neither does it make sense for these grievances to be ignored in favour of declaring that's it all just a religious culture war.
We like making it into a religious culture war, because then it can be all about how crazy these people are and the solution is entirely about them.
I thought one of Bin Laden's objections to the presence of foreign troops was that Saudi Arabia was holy ground and that they were desecrating it in some way? That suggests some religious element to the objection.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's not about moral equivalence, nuclear parity Arminian.
Your outrage is ... false. Meaningless. Like orfeo's in another place. We are to love our most inimical enemies. Terrorism is outrageous, that's what it's for. So?
This is all NOTHING to do with us. Beyond declaring peace.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Hmm. Something to do with the presence of foreign troops. Now where did I see that come up before?
Nope. I've lost it. It's really all about religious fanaticism. [/sarcasm]
People like bin Laden stated time and time again grievances that were geopolitical. These grievances don't justify terrorism. But neither does it make sense for these grievances to be ignored in favour of declaring that's it all just a religious culture war.
We like making it into a religious culture war, because then it can be all about how crazy these people are and the solution is entirely about them.
I thought one of Bin Laden's objections to the presence of foreign troops was that Saudi Arabia was holy ground and that they were desecrating it in some way? That suggests some religious element to the objection.
Yes, I would agree that at least some of his objections were couched in those terms.
My point is, though, that it's still an objection to an event. It's not some intrinsic hatred of all Western culture and values that could only be neutralised by the transformation or destruction of Western culture and values. It's not simply the case that we are hated for who we are. The hatred is based on what's been done. It's specific, not general.
The rhetoric of ISIS is not dissimilar. First and foremost the goal of the movement is the establishment of a state across the Sunni parts of Iraq and Syria. The rhetoric around the beheadings of journalists was not some kind of general "we hate you all and are coming to get you", it was far more specific. It was rhetoric about the involvement of Western forces in support of ISIS' opponents.
Note that this doesn't automatically mean we should just stop supporting ISIS' opponents. But it's kind of vital that we understand the difference between terrorism that is motivated by specific political goals and terrorism that is just a kind of general "I hate everything about your culture and values and it's not about anything specific".
One of the key points of Pape's work on suicide bombing was that the vast majority of it occurred in campaigns, a series of bombings in a particular part of the world associated with the achievement of a goal (and ceasing when that goal was achieved). If that kind of terrorism was simply "I hate everything about you", then it ought to be pretty evenly distributed in time and place across all the "hated" parts of the world. It isn't. Sure, there might be a few crazies out there that will attack no matter what, just because they hate the very idea of Western democracy, but most of these people aren't motivated by such an abstract notion. They point to specific things.
[ 09. January 2015, 23:24: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye, only when Christendom stops being hostile can it have ANYTHING to say.
Otherwise, beware the 'good guys'. They - we - WILL nuke you. With regret.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Martin, talking about "Christendom" hardly does anything to move away from the idea that this is all just a big religious culture clash. There are plenty of Muslims involved in bombing ISIS. The planes of "Christendom" undertaking that activity are stationed in Muslim nations.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
I have just been reading a story from The Times, carried by The Australian (the Murdoch-owned national daily broadsheet), which tucked it away on p14.
It describes the slaughter of 2,000 inhabitants of the town of Baga by Boko Haram over the last five days, as part of its effort to establish an Islamic state in northern Nigeria.
At one level this is just another example of the deaths of twelve white Europeans being more important than the deaths of 2,000 black Africans who were killed at the same time, but what will be really interesting will be to read the attempts (assuming anyone can be bothered to comment on the atrocity) to show why it really had nothing whatsoever to do with Islam.
And yes, I am quite aware the the more than one billion Muslims in the world do not hold homogeneous views on the issue of violence; that the Muslims I know are as horrified as I am at what happened in Paris; and that my friend Youcef is not planning to shoot me.
However, it remains equally silly to pretend that Islam, its record of violence going back to Muhammed, and the potential justifiability of that violence by a certain stream of texts from the Koran, are irrelevant to any discussion of violence by those who themselves claim to perpetrate it out of religious motivation.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
No, what is silly is pretending that there is anything unique in Islam about a history of violence or the ability of adherents to justify violence based on certain texts. Do you want me to start listing Bible verses for you, or can we just take it as read?
The whole reason I engage in these conversations is to point out the basic difference between justification and causation.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I have just been reading a story from The Times, carried by The Australian (the Murdoch-owned national daily broadsheet), which tucked it away on p14.
It describes the slaughter of 2,000 inhabitants of the town of Baga by Boko Haram over the last five days, as part of its effort to establish an Islamic state in northern Nigeria.
At one level this is just another example of the deaths of twelve white Europeans being more important than the deaths of 2,000 black Africans who were killed at the same time, but what will be really interesting will be to read the attempts (assuming anyone can be bothered to comment on the atrocity) to show why it really had nothing whatsoever to do with Islam.
And yes, I am quite aware the the more than one billion Muslims in the world do not hold homogeneous views on the issue of violence; that the Muslims I know are as horrified as I am at what happened in Paris; and that my friend Youcef is not planning to shoot me.
However, it remains equally silly to pretend that Islam, its record of violence going back to Muhammed, and the potential justifiability of that violence by a certain stream of texts from the Koran, are irrelevant to any discussion of violence by those who themselves claim to perpetrate it out of religious motivation.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
The situation in Nigeria is primarily political and economic. The people of the North want a government that can deliver basic services to them and does not neglect them. As they are Muslim, they believe that an Islamic government will not discriminate against them in the way the current govt does. One of the roots of the Nigerian conflict is the age-old one between settled and nomadic farmers, but the Western media finds it easier to portray it as simply Christian vs Muslim rather than educating us about the different tribes there.
The two sides in The Troubles were referred to as Catholic and Protestant but that does not mean that the conflict was religious at heart; just that religion was an easy way for the two sides to distinguish themselves from each other. The same in the Balkans (although there there were 3 groups involved). And in Nigeria.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
And if we're going to talk about the people of northeastern Nigeria, we can at least start by talking about how they are largely Muslim and not treat their deaths as if it's somehow another example of how those crazy Quran-reading folk are out to get "us". The people of Baga are not "us". The people of Baga are a perfect example of the kind of "them" that can co-exist with "us" just fine.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I also, think, on further reflection, that we need to consider carefully whether we actually have an agreed definition of what "terrorism" is.
Because I think a lot of what Boko Haram do isn't terrorism. It's war crimes. Either that, or we have to redefine what happened in Srebrenica during the Bosnian War.
I don't how much it matters that we set up distinctions between terrorism, guerilla warfare etc etc, it was just something that occurred to me. The field of people invoking something greater than themselves to justify violence is vast and wide. I understand the separatists in eastern Ukraine are given to carrying icons around with them.
[ 10. January 2015, 01:08: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
I never expected to appreciate anything Bill Maher had to say, but he nailed it tonight.
"When there are this many bad apples, there is something wrong with the orchard."
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
And yeah, it's just got to be the orchard's soil, right? It couldn't possibly be the neighbour's plane flying overhead spraying chemicals.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
What else do you expect from an anti - religious bigot?
X-post: I meant Maher.
[ 10. January 2015, 02:46: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And yeah, it's just got to be the orchard's soil, right? It couldn't possibly be the neighbour's plane flying overhead spraying chemicals.
So it was western occupation of muslim lands that got the Saudi blogger his first 50 of 1000 lashes today?
Or was it cause he pissed off the Priest?
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And yeah, it's just got to be the orchard's soil, right? It couldn't possibly be the neighbour's plane flying overhead spraying chemicals.
So it was western occupation of muslim lands that got the Saudi blogger his first 50 of 1000 lashes today?
Or was it cause he pissed off the Priest?
You live in a country that has the death penalty. If you want to talk about whether you agree or not with the laws of another country, you might want to think very carefully about things like that before you attempt me to get me to say "gosh, no, the Saudi legal system is just awful". Because I'm quite willing to add "and the United States legal system is pretty damn appalling as well, when are you going to start behaving like a civilised country?".
Of course I think that's wrong. I also think it has precisely nothing to do with anything other than your desire to turn the world into a bunch of White Hats living in your part of the globe and a bunch of Black Hats living somewhere else. I also think you've got no clue about the fact that Saudi Islam is vastly different to the form of Islam in a hell of a lot of other places.
[ 10. January 2015, 03:09: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And yeah, it's just got to be the orchard's soil, right? It couldn't possibly be the neighbour's plane flying overhead spraying chemicals.
So it was western occupation of muslim lands that got the Saudi blogger his first 50 of 1000 lashes today?
Or was it cause he pissed off the Priest?
Saudi Arabia *IS* western occupation of Muslim lands. We keep that benighted family in power there by kowtowing to them, buying their oil, and selling them military equipment at discount. They might as well be an American client state.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And yeah, it's just got to be the orchard's soil, right? It couldn't possibly be the neighbour's plane flying overhead spraying chemicals.
So it was western occupation of muslim lands that got the Saudi blogger his first 50 of 1000 lashes today?
Or was it cause he pissed off the Priest?
You live in a country that has the death penalty. If you want to talk about whether you agree or not with the laws of another country, you might want to think very carefully about things like that before you attempt me to get me to say "gosh, no, the Saudi legal system is just awful". Because I'm quite willing to add "and the United States legal system is pretty damn appalling as well, when are you going to start behaving like a civilised country?".
Of course I think that's wrong. I also think it has precisely nothing to do with anything other than your desire to turn the world into a bunch of White Hats living in your part of the globe and a bunch of Black Hats living somewhere else. I also think you've got no clue about the fact that Saudi Islam is vastly different to the form of Islam in a hell of a lot of other places.
You misjudge me. I'm not making any statement about the Saudi legal system, nor am I defending the death penalty. You suggested that the "neighbor's plane spraying chemicals" was the cause for bad apples. My point is that these neanderthals have been a blight on the human race since long before the USA even existed. They murder their own and others on a daily basis, and not just because western nations occupy their land. They do it to suppress free speech, to prevent education, to abuse and subjugate women, et al. They are assholes, and they do it too often and in too many places and for too many reasons to suggest that it is politically motivated and not related in any way to the faith that they all have in common, regardless of which particular denomination.
The death penalty is an abomination, and I am happy to say that we are at least slowly growing away from it, which is true.
The only thing Islam seems to be growing away from is the civilized world. They are badly in need of a reformation.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
The only thing Islam seems to be growing away from is the civilized world. They are badly in need of a reformation.
What makes you think one isn't in progress?
"The Fatwa on Terrorism has been officially endorsed by Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt. In January 2011, the fatwa was discussed at the World Economic Forum Annual Meeting 2011. In June 2011, Pope Benedict XVI received a copy of the fatwa from representatives of Minhaj Interfaith Relations...
The Fatwa on Terrorism has been reviewed positively by international scholars including Kemal Argon who published a review in the The Journal of Rotterdam Islamic and Social Sciences, Vol. 2, No. 1, 2011, pp. 149–160. Islamic University of Rotterdam, Netherlands
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Do you want me to start listing Bible verses for you?
Yes please.
Show me one verse from the NT which endorses violence on the part of Christians to defend, promote or extend their religion.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
The situation in Nigeria is primarily political and economic. The people of the North want a government that can deliver basic services to them and does not neglect them. As they are Muslim, they believe that an Islamic government will not discriminate against them in the way the current govt does. One of the roots of the Nigerian conflict is the age-old one between settled and nomadic farmers, but the Western media finds it easier to portray it as simply Christian vs Muslim rather than educating us about the different tribes there.
The fact that there are other factors involved (as there invariably are) does not mean that religion is not "really" a factor at all.
quote:
The two sides in The Troubles were referred to as Catholic and Protestant but that does not mean that the conflict was religious at heart; just that religion was an easy way for the two sides to distinguish themselves from each other.
It is the most banal journalistic truism to say that the NI Troubles were at base merely tribal - truistic but also untrue.
Figures on both sides, such as the late Ian Paisley, took the religious dimension of the conflict very seriously.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Do you want me to start listing Bible verses for you?
Yes please.
Show me one verse from the NT which endorses violence on the part of Christians to defend, promote or extend their religion.
I came not to bring peace but a sword. I came to set a man against his father, etc etc.
Honestly, I didn't even have to look that one up.
You're now going to tell me that it doesn't mean that, and then I'm going to tell you that I don't think it means that either, but that's simply because I'm not the kind of person looking for a justification for violence in the first place. If someone wants to find justifications in the Bible (yes, the whole Bible, not just the New Testament, because do you seriously think someone looking for justification is going to say "damn, suddenly the first 39 books here are off limits because they're Jewish??") they are going to find them.
I can remember some years ago on the Ship, in one of these debates, an anti-Islam poster provided a link and said "look! look! here's a website that lists all the horrible verses in the Quran!". Only problem is, he'd actually linked to an atheist website that had identical pages listing all the horrible verses in the Bible, both testaments.
Would you like me to try and find the site for you?
EDIT: Actually, I think I might have already found it, because this looks familiar. If you really want to insist on only dealing with New Testament examples of being horrible, then scroll down and you'll find them in items 1,155 through to 1,318. Cheers.
[ 10. January 2015, 04:36: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re NT verses promoting violence:
orfeo posted while I was looking up chapter and verse, but I'll post this anyway:
quote:
Luke 22 NIV via Bible Gateway
35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”
“Nothing,” they answered.
36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’[b]; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”
38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”
“That’s enough!” he replied.
On the surface, it conflicts with just about everything Jesus taught. But it's there.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Christianity is not merely the New Testament. Christians running back and forth across that artificial border is ridiculous and disingenuous.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You're now going to tell me that it doesn't mean that, and then I'm going to tell you that I don't think it means that either, but that's simply because I'm not the kind of person looking for a justification for violence in the first place. If someone wants to find justifications in the Bible (yes, the whole Bible, not just the New Testament, because do you seriously think someone looking for justification is going to say "damn, suddenly the first 39 books here are off limits because they're Jewish??") they are going to find them.
One key problem with Islam - and I mean with all of Islam - is that it has no overarching authority. There is no central organisation that all Muslims would listen to. And even within any specific part of the Muslim word, it is simply not the case that any particular institution always has the last word. Practically speaking, the local Imam tends to be the key authority for most Muslims. Islam has an organisation that is more like Rabbinic Judaism or modern Protestantism. Thus we indeed cannot really "nail down" how Muslims interpret their holy scripture.
This is however not really true for Christianity. Even today, Rome remains the central authority for the vast majority of Christians. And its historical dominance over two millennia means that even those who do not consider themselves under Rome's authority now still share most of the basic interpretation that the apostolic Church under Rome has established. So in practice it is quite possible to say what is "mainstream" Christian interpretation and practice. In Islam, you get many streams.
It is simply not true that some Christian could now interpret the bible as straight up advocating aggressive holy war and expect to have his opinion respected as a reasonable expression of Christianity. Not that Christian holy war is impossible, we have had plenty of it - but it has been established firmly as a considerable stretch from how things should be. Christians have to justify their religious violence each and every time, because the core accepted interpretation of Christ's teaching is that we should not be violent.
So a direct comparison between Islam and Christianity fails in this regard. And since Islam does not have a central authority now, and is unlikely to have one in the future, trying to get Islam on par with Christianity on this issue is like trying to get all modern Christian denomination to agree on a new doctrine. That's difficult, and perhaps impossible.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Even today, Rome remains the central authority for the vast majority of Christians.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Nope.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Nope.
OK, fine. "Vast" was factually wrong, it is merely the simple majority of Christians nowadays. Anyway, my key point was that a Lutheran Christian is not terribly different from a RC one, and neither is an Orthodox one, though they differ somewhat in their differences. There simply is a clear "mainstream" of Christianity, and historically speaking there is no question that this derives from the central organisation that Christianity used to enjoy.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
orfeo - they are Christendom's planes. Or should I say Babylon's?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Nope.
OK, fine. "Vast" was factually wrong, it is merely the simple majority of Christians nowadays. Anyway, my key point was that a Lutheran Christian is not terribly different from a RC one, and neither is an Orthodox one, though they differ somewhat in their differences. There simply is a clear "mainstream" of Christianity, and historically speaking there is no question that this derives from the central organisation that Christianity used to enjoy.
I'm quite sure that the Orthodox would reject the notion that Rome was ever the central point of a single Christian organisation. Is that not a central point of schism? That instead of Rome being one of a group of autocephalous churches, it tried to act unilaterally?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It is simply not true that some Christian could now interpret the bible as straight up advocating aggressive holy war and expect to have his opinion respected as a reasonable expression of Christianity.
Presumably though, you are implying that it IS possible for some Muslim to interpret that Quran as straght up advocating aggressive holy war and have that opinion respects as a reasonable expression of Islam.
Quite what "holy war" has to do with a couple of brothers shooting up a publishing house, I'm not entirely certain, although I did already refer to the question of how we distinguish acts of terrorism from acts within a war. I'm vaguely reminded of one of the US court cases where the government lawyer started by saying "we are engaged in a war on terror" and one of the judges immediately snapped at him to show the formal declaration from the President.
But my other response to you is to say that the Bible Belt of America would be fertile ground for exactly the kind of sentiment you're suggesting that "mainstream" Christianity wouldn't accept. To my ears, some of the language that comes out of that part of the world on topics such as support for the nation of Israel is alarming as hell, and the 'God is with us' mentality is pretty much what you need to justify going out and smiting your enemies.
[ 10. January 2015, 07:33: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
IngoB is of course right. Or at least rhetorically valid.
Having attended a Roman Catholic church in Spain I felt quite at home. Part of my coming in from the cold was attending a service venerating Mary on the glowing tip of the wick of an Anglican church. I sat at the back of an Orthodox church service briefly and could have sat there all day. The form AND content are the same.
That's the problem.
We're all obliviously waiting for Samuel Beckett.
When we should be sacrificially kind to those who hate us with cause.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
EDIT: Actually, I think I might have already found it, because this looks familiar. If you really want to insist on only dealing with New Testament examples of being horrible, then scroll down and you'll find them in items 1,155 through to 1,318. Cheers.
I didn't ask you for a "New Testament example of being horrible", I asked for one single NT verse calling on (or even merely permitting) Christians to practise violence as part of their religion, and not one single verse of those on this list does so.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Christianity is not merely the New Testament.
I don't know about "merely", but Christianity does undoubtedly involve applying the OT in the light of the NT.
That is why Christians are not required to practise the OT tabernacle/temple/priestly/ sacrificial system - or holy war.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Christianity is not merely the New Testament.
I don't know about "merely", but Christianity does undoubtedly involve applying the OT in the light of the NT.
That is why Christians are not required to practise the OT tabernacle/temple/priestly/ sacrificial system - or holy war.
They may not be required to but that doesn't stop them doing so. As in all things, some do, some don't.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
I've seen Luke 22:36-38 interpreted to justify the use of force in a good cause. (And surely most Christians think Christianity is a better cause than any secular nation.)
I don't think that's the right interpretation myself, but the interpretation has been made.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
EDIT: Actually, I think I might have already found it, because this looks familiar. If you really want to insist on only dealing with New Testament examples of being horrible, then scroll down and you'll find them in items 1,155 through to 1,318. Cheers.
I didn't ask you for a "New Testament example of being horrible", I asked for one single NT verse calling on (or even merely permitting) Christians to practise violence as part of their religion, and not one single verse of those on this list does so.
Says you. The author of that website claims that there's plenty of verses justifying or approving violence.
And that's the point. Claims. You can assert all you like that none of those verses justify it, but the point is that someone else can claim the exact opposite.
And so it is with the Quran.
What truly galls me about Christian attitudes on this subject is the complete lack of empathy. Do you not realise that here on the Ship, people discuss Bible verses endlessly? That people make a claim that the Bible says something, and other people come along to say how ridiculous that claim is?
And yet I rarely see anyone on here who decides to start talking about the Quran have the sheer human decency to acknowledge that it's open to interpretation in precisely the same way. It's always asserted with the force of certainty that the Quran permits and advocates violence, with complete BLINDNESS to (1) the fact that there are Muslims who would say you're interpreting the verses wrongly out of context and (2) that there are people who say the Bible permits and advocates violence, to which you wuld say they're interpreting the verses wrongly and out of context.
This isn't about whether your view of the Bible is correct. It's about the complete failure of people to recognise that there are other interpretations, good or bad, of both your holy book and of other people's holy books. I've got no real interest in convincing you that the Bible permits violent warfare because I don't particularly believe it myself, but you could at least have the sense to see that other people think the Bible does do that, and historically there have been plenty of Christians who have used the Bible to justify practices that you and I would find abhorrent, ranging from slavery to Crusades to virulent anti-Semitism.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
Trying to pretend that violence has nothing to do with Islam seems a hard sell given that Mohammad was involved in many violent wars to spread its belief system.
There is big difference between Jesus' life and Mohammad's.
Well, good point. Next time I meet a Muslim neighbour or friend, I shall certainly be on the look-out for that hidden revolver or grenade. The ones with beards merit particular scrutiny - perhaps a full body search?
I stated a fact. Nothing to do with Muslims, just a theological observation on their religion.
Your reply goes to illustrate the problem. To even dare to criticize any aspect of Islam is to be ridiculed with insults. There is NO reason why Islam should be exempt from the same scrutiny that any other religion or philosophy should stand up to.
If Islam is so tolerant why are so many Muslim states so intolerant ? Just this week Saudi Arabia passed the death penalty for anyone caught bringing Bibles into their country ? If we did the same and threatened to publically behead a Muslim for bringing the Koran into Britain imagine the outrage ?
SO WHY NO OUTRAGE HERE ? I'm sick and tired of being told that even to mention historical facts about the life of Mohammad is in some way an insult to Muslims. IT ISN'T !
I'm not bothered about Mohammed; it's your logic fail I was pointing out. You seem to be saying that because some Muslims are violent, therefore Islam is inherently violent. Why then are my Muslim neighbours and friends not violent?
You are getting quite close to the Texas sharpshooter fallacy, I think. I might as well say that because there are some racist French people, therefore French = racist.
It's a dangerous fallacy, in fact, I suspect that Al Quaeda also practise it, so that they can identify all infidels as targets.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
British and American Muslims may well be 'them' too - not 'real' Muslims in some eyes, and therefore they may well be targets too.
In fact, the lines seem far more to do with geography and nationality than with religion. There's more racism in the mix than anything else.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Well, to clarify, it's not a dangerous endeavor because of Islam proper, but because of the possible response from radical or fundamentalist Islam.
I realize this was from much earlier in the thread, but... The danger exists from both in my opinion. Yes, in the West the primary danger for the staff of Charlie Hebdo or scholars like Tom Holland is from radicalized Islamists. Salman Rushdie does live under the threat of death from the Iranian religious/political establishment though, probably with "official" support for that fatwa elsewhere. In many if not most Islamic majority countries however, the threat of death from apostasy/heresy/blasphemy is very real and very much supported by the established authorities (and the man on the street). So I think Mere Nick has a point about the underlying ideology and not just a radical interpretation.
I don't agree with romanlion that Islam needs a Reformation. It has the confessional divide and the fratricidal violence now. It needs an Englightenment and the basic civil liberties we take for granted to question, satirize, and openly follow ones conscience without the threat of death.
[ 10. January 2015, 13:39: Message edited by: Alt Wally ]
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