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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Tony Anthony Complete EA Investigation and Report
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PDA
Apprentice
# 16531
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Posted
Is now online for your perusal and discussion if you are interested.
http://docdro.id/KALs35J
[ 05. December 2016, 00:50: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
What is there to discuss? I can't make head-nor-tail of this without context.
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arse
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Sorry I should have posted some context ^^thanks.
Given that TA is still an evangelist and still peddling the same 3 times world champion bodyguard yarn has the christian community done enough to dissuade and deal with this kind of behaviour?
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
I thought they hadn't got permission to release that?
To answer the question in the OP. Probably not. It's hard for some Christians to accept that there are people who are just in it for the money, the power etc. And when they are caught, some who believe that it shouldn't be reported as it makes us all look bad. Other varients to this include forgiving them whole heartedly because Christ forgave us; not taking legal action because suing a brother or sister in Christ is not on etc.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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PDA
Apprentice
# 16531
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Posted
From memory the solicitors of Avanti prevented the EA from releasing it.
Avanti no longer exist.
The report has leaked.
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
Would agree with what Tubbs said above. I think there is a general tendancy to trust people within an in group - which has wider implications when considering extended faith communities in which trust is often granted on the basis of easily faked behaviours (assuming a certain language, for example)
Then again someone living a series of falsehoods has their own coping mechanisms, from various forms of justification all the way up to believing parts of their own fabricated story (and they don't necessarily have some form of illness in order to do so).
And then there is outright fakery of the sort that the first tendancy allows.
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Would agree with what Tubbs said above. I think there is a general tendancy to trust people within an in group - which has wider implications when considering extended faith communities in which trust is often granted on the basis of easily faked behaviours (assuming a certain language, for example)
Then again someone living a series of falsehoods has their own coping mechanisms, from various forms of justification all the way up to believing parts of their own fabricated story (and they don't necessarily have some form of illness in order to do so).
And then there is outright fakery of the sort that the first tendancy allows.
Then there's the tendency to dismiss out of hand hard evidence of wrong doing because the individual has a "mighty ministry" that might damaged by such small inconviences as being prosecuted or having attention drawn to it. (See here for another example).
I lost count of the number of posts I saw on social media that it was a shame that the Christian press was reporting this because of the potential negative impact on persecuted Christians. When this came up at our place, we just quietly suggested that if people wanted to help, they donated their money to similar causes.
Tubbs
[ 02. August 2016, 14:29: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I posted this on the Ship back in 2013:
Some years ago a group of church leaders from Our Town - myself included - went to meet Tony Anthony in his office. I had never heard of the guy and was decidedly suspicious (for the same reasons as ExclamationMark - i.e. a distrust of "Christian celebrity"). Everyone else came out of the meeting raving about him and saying, "We must get him to do a mission here" - which he did.
I am not claiming any "gift of discernment" but I just didn't like the guy! There was some sort of apparent over-confidence about him which immediately turned me off him. That isn't to say I thought he was a rogue - I didn't. But I was not at all convinced by his story and I felt that there was some kind of innate aggression about him which I found disquieting.
All very subjective impressions, I know; and little more than a mismatch of personality types. I am sad to discover that my "hunches" were actually based on something more substantial.
Looking at the report I can now see that the leadership of the Baptist Church attended by Tony had become very concerned about him and did all they could to find out the truth, however Tony was highly defensive and confrontational. (The Minister at the church is someone that I know and respect). The report itself is also remarkably generous in suggesting that Tony may have been genuinely deluded when talking about his childhood.
[ 02. August 2016, 12:36: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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# 16531
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Posted
You certainly were not alone.
In the report their is the transcript of the interview the EA did with the Prison Chaplain who was working at HMP Bullingdon during TA's stay there.
His first impression was that TA was a con man and he went on to comment that he never attended church or asked for a bible whilst in prison.
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
Hosts and Admin are watching this thread very closely because of the legal risks to the Ship. We appreciate there is now information in the public domain and scope for fair comment but that can slide into libel, or the risk of the Ship being accused of allowing libellous utterances. We don't have the funds to fight off such accusations. The risks are being discussed at the present time.
So meanwhile have a care please. We may have to delete this thread.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
See here for another example.
I found that horrifying. And as you say some of the lines of defence elsewhere on the internet are equally horrifying where they focus on the way the victim dressed and refer to "Jezebel". I'm shocked that for such a high profile organisation there hasn't been more discussion and reporting of this in Christian circles. This is the Evangelical version of Kid's Company with the exception that we seem to be back to business as usual rather than a select committee.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I found that horrifying. And as you say some of the lines of defence elsewhere on the internet are equally horrifying where they focus on the way the victim dressed and refer to "Jezebel". I'm shocked that for such a high profile organisation there hasn't been more discussion and reporting of this in Christian circles. This is the Evangelical version of Kid's Company with the exception that we seem to be back to business as usual rather than a select committee.
Probably worth putting the official Barnabus Fund response here too.
"Hard Pressed on Every Side" pdf from January 2016
I'm out of words for the Barnabus Fund and their erstwhile founder.
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arse
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
I met Patrick 2005+ and subscribed to Barnabas. I wish I hadn't. I was party to unbelievably disturbing accounts, not of impropriety. That itself and the premiss of Open Doors and all the others I suspect are weak. Even if Patrick is pure as the driven, the 'ministry' is dark.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I found that horrifying. And as you say some of the lines of defence elsewhere on the internet are equally horrifying where they focus on the way the victim dressed and refer to "Jezebel". I'm shocked that for such a high profile organisation there hasn't been more discussion and reporting of this in Christian circles. This is the Evangelical version of Kid's Company with the exception that we seem to be back to business as usual rather than a select committee.
Probably worth putting the official Barnabus Fund response here too.
"Hard Pressed on Every Side" pdf from January 2016
I'm out of words for the Barnabus Fund and their erstwhile founder.
Wow ... Just wow ... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
It's amazing the way they just explain it all away. It is possible for someone to be mightily gifted in one area and completed flawed in others. And for those flaws to mean that they shouldn't be allowed in positions of trust.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
It's amazing the way they just explain it all away.
I was particularly amazed by the way they handwave the sexual touching case by saying that according to the Bible there weren't enough witnesses for the accusation to be made.
Note that that's not a denial that the touching happened.
One can only conclude that their "Christian" morality basically boils down to "if no-one sees you do it, it's fine".
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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PDA
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# 16531
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Posted
I was listening to a podcast earlier and they were talking about a guy that made a documentary about an "end of the world cult" who were going to some place at some time to wait for a mothership to collect them when the world blew up.
The documentary was more the study of what happened afterwards , how they behaved when the world didnt explode and the mothership never arrived.
To his surprise instead of rejecting what they had been taught they doubled down and started to reject the facts and create more theories to explain what happened and started to be even more active to recruit more people into their cult.
When I look at TA's new ministry and the people who have backed it and the story behind their original encounters with TA I see a very similar mentality.
Posts: 40 | From: Essex | Registered: Jul 2011
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PDA
Apprentice
# 16531
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Hosts and Admin are watching this thread very closely because of the legal risks to the Ship. We appreciate there is now information in the public domain and scope for fair comment but that can slide into libel, or the risk of the Ship being accused of allowing libellous utterances. We don't have the funds to fight off such accusations. The risks are being discussed at the present time.
So meanwhile have a care please. We may have to delete this thread.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
Just some advise from somebody who has dealt with many legal threats and con men .
You are absolutely right to protect this site by deleting this thread if a legal threat is made or if it is considered that one may come.
But I will say that posting this warning was a bad idea because if TA is reading this he will now know that a simple email threatening to sue will result in this thread being deleted.
I know that TA will NEVER take anybody to court because that would basically involve him paying for the privilege of getting his arse handed to him in court and made to look even worse than he does already.
He would be forcing the person he sues to demonstrate:
1)What was said was fair comment given the information available to the public
2)What was said was true
3)What was said was done so in the interest of the public.
That would be extremely easy and he knows it and so does whoever he pays for legal advise.
I am still amazed that the EA did not rebuff his threats but generally speaking they appeared lacking the testicular fortitude at several junctures in this episode so it was hardly surprising I guess. (I can substantiate that with a number of items of correspondence and write it because I believe it is in the interests of the people on this site reading it who make likely encounter the EA or people working with them )
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PDA:
Instead of rejecting what they had been taught they doubled down and started to reject the facts and create more theories to explain what happened and started to be even more active to recruit more people into their cult.
But this always happens. It happened in the Seventh Day Adventists when Christ's Return failed to materialise in 1844 and 1845. And it happened with many of the Charismatic "prophets" of the 1980s. I wouldn't be surprised if it happened to the C19 Catholic Apostolics as well - and in many other groups.
Dare one say that one even sees a hint of it in the New Testament where Peter explains away the apparent tardiness of Jesus' return by saying that God operates outside our human timescale?
(Of course, I'm purely speaking theologically here: I'm not suggesting any moral decline or failure in any of these groups. But I'm sure there have been many discredited Christian leaders whose followers refused to accept, or explained away, solid evidence against them. It's what happens when you've invested a lot of time and money into them).
[ 03. August 2016, 15:18: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
It's amazing the way they just explain it all away.
I was particularly amazed by the way they handwave the sexual touching case by saying that according to the Bible there weren't enough witnesses for the accusation to be made.
Note that that's not a denial that the touching happened.
One can only conclude that their "Christian" morality basically boils down to "if no-one sees you do it, it's fine".
Far king hail. There was clearly enough evidence for a jury to convict him. Result: he's now a convicted sex offender - fact - so why the actual fuck is the Barnabas Trust seeking to defend him. 'Allegations' my arse!
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Probably worth putting the official Barnabus Fund response here too.
"Hard Pressed on Every Side" pdf from January 2016
Our church once sent a donation to the Fund (I wish we hadn't now). As a result we kept on receiving their magazines and were sent a copy of this document. I read it at the time without having any idea what it was about, so had to do quite a bit of internet digging to find a wider context.
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
PDA
A note for the future. Hostly posts can be questioned in the Styx but not in the thread where they are made.
You can take it that I saw the possible downside of my post. Feel free to take any further discussion about the Ship's policy re potential libel to the Styx.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
[ETA. For all Shipmates. Recognising the potential for confusion over my Ship's name, I can confirm that I have never had anything to do with the Barnabas Fund.]
[ 03. August 2016, 15:27: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Quite genuinely, the thought never entered my head! Nor, I suspect, the heads of other Shippies.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
This man is the genuine article.
I've been present at his testimony twice, got the book, read it in one sitting.
And no, I don't believe the claims for a moment, I believe THE MAN.
[ 03. August 2016, 16:46: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cheesy:
Probably worth putting the official Barnabus Fund response here too.
"Hard Pressed on Every Side" pdf from January 2016
I'm out of words for the Barnabus Fund and their erstwhile founder.
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Wow ... Just wow ...
It's amazing the way they just explain it all away. It is possible for someone to be mightily gifted in one area and completed flawed in others. And for those flaws to mean that they shouldn't be allowed in positions of trust.
It opens with a screed of various character assassinations before it even attempts to point out what the case is about. Notice that the trustees include Sookdheo's wife. The document reads as the most dreadful unclear ranting, without any real attempt to clarify or set facts out in a balanced way. Even without the other documentation, just reading this I would conclude that I was dealing with a toxic organization that was intent on self-justification at any cost.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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PDA
Apprentice
# 16531
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
This man is the genuine article.
I've been present at his testimony twice, got the book, read it in one sitting.
And no, I don't believe the claims for a moment, I believe THE MAN.
I dont know much about this fella other than watching the first few minutes of that video but I can say this .
He looks and sounds legit.
I know allot of people still doing what he claims to have done and he looks and sounds like them.
There are others like John Lawson for example who do not.
That is not to say he is not 100% legit he was certainly a door man but I dont know about the rest and at this moment in time am not interested but its just that he doesnt look or sound like somebody who has lived that life from my experience.
From what I have seen first hand from people who have lived that life and converted is that God does not remove who you are he removes who you were not.
This leaves allot of characteristics intact and those people still have the same presence and swagger for want of a better term but now their heart shines through a rough exterior.
Thats one of the reasons why guys like TA get ridiculed heavily from people within the industries he claimed to be a part of because he is not that kind of guy and does not have that about him in the slightest.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
One of the reasons I totally believe IN Swanny is that we have a mutual friend who knew him professionally for years who would knock him down on his arse just to say hello and start a friendly conversation.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Wait...there's an evangelical alliance?
Oh you crazy UK people trying to herd cats.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I think that boat sails as soon as you mention the word "church".
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
One of the reasons I totally believe IN Swanny is that we have a mutual friend who knew him professionally for years who would knock him down on his arse just to say hello and start a friendly conversation.
Based on a quick look on Amazon I'd agree. Rooted in a local community, involved in a church with apparent accountability and claims that could be varied from other sources if you felt the need. Plus, endorsements from reputable sources.
(I'm a researcher, I look for this stuff and consider it to be important)
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
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guthrum
Shipmate
# 8446
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Posted
This is all so familiar. About ten years ago the anglican church I was involved in at the time invited an Indian evangelist, one of a number who describe themselves as 'the Billy Graham of India', to speak. I was given copies of his 'millions selling' book and urged to hand them out amongst the congregation, which I did.
I then sat down to read the great man's 'fantastic testimony'. It certainly was fantastic in the sense of being obvious self serving fantasy. More worrying was the 'orphanage' he ran, the most superficial enquiry about which raised a number of concerns about the treatment of children and potentially child trafficking.
I tried to raise concerns with the Church leadership but no matter what information I put forward about obvious lies, confirmed by his own mutually conflicting accounts, it was dismissed. I was misunderstanding Indian culture which has a different attitude to 'truth'. The Rector had discerned that he had a good spirit, and the inconsistencies were information planted by 'the enemy'. The Vicar who had invited him accused me of doing Satan's work by spreading gossip when I challenged the wisdom of being involved with this man.
Many people found his story encouraging, I was told, and to challenge his testimony might cause them to stumble. What did it matter if he exaggerated, embellished or made up stories if people found them encouraging? I was accused of being obsessed with proving falsehood where none existed and it would endanger my future in the church if I continued. Despite the claims that he was such a powerful evangelist he was the subject of recent assassination attempts it was deemed wise to send a party of young people to stay with him in India and more people became involved in financially supporting his organisation.
It was several years before a national newspaper exposed the child trafficking and I was then told that there had always been suspicions about him but people were encouraged and to do anything would have damaged the reputation of the priest who invited him in the first place so it had been allowed to continue.
I won't name the individual as he has since died but reading the report into TA I certainly agree with the comment that more needs to be done to address the whole issue of verification of Christian testimony. Unfortunately I doubt there is a will within any church institution to do that.
[ 07. August 2016, 10:21: Message edited by: guthrum ]
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
guthrum, this angers and saddens me, I don't know which more. NOTHING angers me like this deception which is RIFE in the Anglican church. From the VERY top (NOT Her Majesty!) to bottom. No conversation can be had with this EVIL. Soon after I started attending the church generally, as a born again Evangelical in 2005, I specifically attended and was confirmed at 51 in the church of my infant baptism, I loved it and tried to embrace the magical thinking.
I was traumatized by being party to atrocities through Barnabas after meeting Patrick Sookhdeo in person, which IS part of the fabric here. At least the vicar apologized publically for Patrick, whose presentation did NOT include the atrocities but was multiply disturbing enough in medium as well as message the week after.
I'm highly extroverted and therefore repressed myself except initially in Alpha, but certainly did in home group in all fellowship with regard to the disconnect which I was trying to make work anyway. My struggles were very much internal due to my alienated self, I didn't have a problem with others. If there was a problem, if I felt uncomfortable I assumed it was me and did everything I could to fit in.
But then I began to encounter bleeding edge damnationism. And realised that behind the edge is a very broad sword indeed. And that sword is obscured by the emperor's cloak of magical, Charismatic unreason.
Two guys engaged me in conversation and pushed damnationism at NO instigation from me whatsoever. I NEVER instigate. I felt really bad with one, a twenty something vicar's son as I actually gave an answer according to faith and it disturbed him so much he said he would have to take it, ME up with the vicar. I most politely encouraged him to do so. Of course he daren't.
Another chap was a health professional, a geriatric nurse I think, hopefully not a doctor, although his people carrier was a good one, who, apropos of NOTHING but the sermon said to me that he was so sad as he watched his infidel charges slip of to Hell with their dying breath.
I couldn't speak for horror and would not have done if I could. But I made the mistake of showing my shock by dropping my jaw and shooting up my brows AND shaking my head.
He POINTED at me and said, 'Heresy!'. Five hundred years ago I'd have been executed for that. The words of Sir John Harington, for whom we have to thank for the flush toilet, came to mind and mouth, as they did on reading your account of church Stalinism: 'Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason.'.
Lonely are the brave guthrum.
[ 07. August 2016, 11:13: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
But the difference is that nowadays, these are all voluntary associations. No one is obliged to attend any of these churches, or accept the theological accusations of any Christian. And an accusation of heresy makes no sense in a denomination that claims to be a broad church.
Going back to the OP, I suppose it's inevitable that once people make a name for themselves and develop a fan base claims of dishonesty take longer to stick. Jesus himself knew that religion offered opportunities for fraudsters and egoists to achieve prestigious positions. Showbusiness and politics are also full of people who present one image but turn out to be something quite different.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
SvitlanaV2 there are hundreds of people at a time caught up in these large congregations of mass brainwashing, of deceit. I don't have to go?! These are NORMAL, urban Anglican congregations. The village one was bliss by comparison. I had a great laugh with my last vicar when he said that my then previous church had said of his that the latter were liberal for being just Evangelical. The laugh came when I said 'Ah but David, they're CHARISMATIC Evangelical.'.
We're back in the city now. In the catchment of a plant of our last but one Charismatic Anglican church, where I've been tolerated throughout as a volunteer with the dispossessed.
ALL the rest are WORSE.
I'm going to have to give a local Baptist-Methodist combo a try as they actually look pretty open in every sense and if they want to try brainwashing my 86 year old Mum on a Tuesday afternoon they're welcome to try.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Yes, I suppose the size of these congregations is an attraction. Plus the fact that they specifically go out of their way to draw people in, which other churches do less directly.
But what counts as 'normal'? Most CofE congregations aren't like the ones you describe, although that's no consolation if it's the only sort of church in your vicinity. You'd need to be willing to drive to another area.
Try the 'Baptist-Methodist combo'. The congregation will be much smaller, and the ministry more low key. Some of the Baptists might have heard of Tony Anthony, but the Methodists probably won't!
Be aware that it's no easier to invigorate a reserved, tolerant church than it is to make a vigorous church more liberal.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I have known three large Anglican congregations in three counties where the vicars were all mates and all did, allowed, encouraged, facilitated magical thinking affecting a couple of thousand people.
The Baptist-Methodist combo doesn't look small. I met a great emergent Baptist minister last year and a great emergent United Reformed one a few years back. I'm not holding my breath.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
If you're only looking at really large congregations, then yes, I can understand.
But most CofE congregations only contain about 60-odd people.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
(While Baptists ones have about 60 odd people???)
Gamaliel, we have need of you on this thread!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
This sad story echoes that of another influential Christian - well, he influenced me - with a complex back story and what seems to have been a complicated relationship with the truth. This is the first of a set of You Tube interviews which add up to something rather long; they are cut from a public domain film so do not threaten the ship.
When did we start saying 'if a lie comes out, it reflects badly on Jesus - let's lie some more!'.
God save us from our pride and vanity.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
(While Baptists ones have about 60 odd people???)
Sorry?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
60 "odd people", as opposed to "60-odd" people.
It was meant to be a joke!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Ambivalence
Apprentice
# 16165
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PDA:
I was listening to a podcast earlier and they were talking about a guy that made a documentary about an "end of the world cult" who were going to some place at some time to wait for a mothership to collect them when the world blew up.
The documentary was more the study of what happened afterwards , how they behaved when the world didnt explode and the mothership never arrived.
To his surprise instead of rejecting what they had been taught they doubled down and started to reject the facts and create more theories to explain what happened and started to be even more active to recruit more people into their cult.
I suspect that'd be "When Prophecy Fails"
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails), it's well worth a read.
Posts: 22 | From: Peterlee | Registered: Jan 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
60 "odd people", as opposed to "60-odd" people.
It was meant to be a joke!
Oh, I see.
Mind you, I was referring to the CofE, not the Baptists.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
60 "odd people", as opposed to "60-odd" people.
It was meant to be a joke!
Oh, I see.
Mind you, I was referring to the CofE, not the Baptists.
But that was the joke he was making (at his own denomination's expense) - you said most C of E congregations have about '60-odd' people, so he retorted (as an aside) that Baptist ones, by contrast, might have 60 'odd people'.
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Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Serves me right for not paying enough attention!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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guthrum
Shipmate
# 8446
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Posted
SvitlanaV2, Martin. My experience was in what is pretty much a middle of the road, rural,group of Anglican churches with very much sub 60 congregations. Interesting in the context of Martin's comments that the leadership at the time were very supportive of Sookhdo's Barnabas and the senior member of the team was trying (with little success) to nudge people in a Charismatic direction. The visiting 'evangelist' was part of that and supported by a small number of people who I think felt that their spirituality was being marginalised by the majority who were/are not of that ilk. That did seem to lead to a sense of 'persecution' and a linking of that to any challenge to the group's activities.
What surprised me at the time was how quickly people I considered sensible cast all normal logical thought aside. Any evidence that the so called Evangelist was telling lies was interpreted as a sign of how good he must be for Satan to be attacking him. The stronger the proof the more evidence it was of the effectiveness of the evil one. Rather like the TA case, inconsistencies in the story were dismissed as rnames, places and events being changed to protect the man from the attempts on his life by opponents from other faiths.
In retrospect many of the tactics that were used against me and others who questioned what was being done had cult like features. We would be isolated. 'Meetings' were arranged at which we would be alone with a pair of clergy who would speak of their concern for our spiritual and psychological well being because of the obsession with 'attacking' this good man. I was prayed over and hints made at pseudo exorcism type procedures to free me from a 'sprit of disagreement'! I don't think this sort of behaviour was planned to intimidate or that there was some deliberate conspiracy, rather it emerged from a situation that became highly charged in which everything was interpreted as a spiritual sign or challenge.
Because I am quite persistent and not one to back down for the easy life when faced with opposition, this all made me more determined. I probably did become somewhat obsessed and reading the work of the 'research group' into TA had a familiar feel. I am sure that as well as seeing many things that really were wrong, I also began to see quite innocent material in an over suspicious light which did not help matters. This went on for a few years off and on, and over that time it is all too easy to get sucked into becoming a mirror image of those on 'the other side'.
What remains troubling is the lack of mechanisms within churches for people to raise concerns like this so that they can be looked at by someone outside the local church/congregation. I tried to seek advice from a senior diocesan clergyperson who I thought could be trusted, but the promised confidentiality was broken and the conversation reported back to the Rector immediately. I was then told that the evangelist had been approved by the diocese, although that was later proved to be a lie.
In a sense this is all rather trivial compared to other issues that the church faces due to failings in dealing with more serious wrongdoing. I have learned a lot about how difficult it is to challenge clergy behaviour and how the 'professionals' close ranks against the laity. That has given me a very different perspective on how other damaging activities continued for so long.
Personally I am left with little faith in the Anglican Church but largely I think the people who buy into this style of 'evangelism' are willingly deceived and happy to move on to the next thing if and when the facade crumbles. That is what happened hereabouts and I am sure that if this report leads to the end of TA's activities there are plenty of others waiting to fill the gap.
Posts: 62 | From: SW England | Registered: Sep 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
guthrum, how dark this is and you had to go through years of it. We are a very benighted monkey indeed. Milgram's and Zimbardo's experiments come to mind: We are such frail creatures in our strength. You identify the greatest risk: our becoming like that which we oppose. How we find the third way, the orthogonal way to this body of death, Jesus knows!
Have you documented all of this for all concerned, up to the bishop and beyond? If you have the strength, please do. This massive abuse need exposing to the full light of day.
I think this is MORE fundamental than the acute and chronic sexual predation.
SvitlanV2 said that the church is a free association, one can take it or leave it? How can one take or leave the body of Christ? How can we forsake her as we see the day approaching? I used to take that so seriously, for decades, right up to now. Rotted in guilt when I didn't for seven years. Now I despair. Except when spending £200 to go to Steve Chalke's Oasis once a year, which I'll never be able to again.
Your conclusion is devastating because I believe that even full truth and reconciliation will change nothing, people desperately want to be deceived, they have ears itching for magic words.
Where IS the body of Christ? Where is the Church? His radical, purified bride?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by guthrum:
What remains troubling is the lack of mechanisms within churches for people to raise concerns like this so that they can be looked at by someone outside the local church/congregation.
Personally I am left with little faith in the Anglican Church but largely I think the people who buy into this style of 'evangelism' are willingly deceived and happy to move on to the next thing if and when the facade crumbles.
In general - having been in both Anglican and non-Anglican settings, and experienced similar situations I have slightly more faith in the Anglican church because at least there is nominally someone higher up the chain who can be consulted who has a clear responsibility, and secondly cleaning up the mess afterwards is somewhat easier. Whereas in the non-Anglican/congregationalist settings the collapse and disillusionment associated with one failing movement was exactly what was used to foster the rise of the next movement.
Of course the person higher up the chain could decide to punt, but at least it was slightly more obvious that they were doing so at least in later cleanup. In a 'non-hierarchical' setting the situation was far more likely to develop along the lines outlined in Eutychus' blog.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
Between the covert and extensive extramarital activities of "broeder Ben", the erstwhile front man for Stichting Opwekking here in the Netherlands, the perverse private life of the founder of the Legion of Christ, father Marcial Maciel Degollado, and the fanciful half-truths and lies of Mattheus van der Steen of TRIN-fame, nothing surprises me anymore.
I suspect I own a few dozen books with the usual stories of conversions, revivals, miracles etc. that are exactly the same kind of sham as the book(s) by mr. Anthony.
It seems that people with a message too often think that the end justifies the means.
My rule of thumb has become:
If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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