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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Shake it all about: Brexit thread II
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
I think Enoch's point is that these whipped-up scandal stories are part of a distraction operation.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I'm going to expose my ignorance but I'm realising that I don't completely understand the relationship between customs checks and regulatory alignment.
I thought it worked like this:
Widgets in Ricardusland have to be able to withstand pressures of up to 400kPa, whereas in Neighbourland the regulations only require 300kPa. The border checks are required to make sure that substandard Neighbourland widgets don't enter Ricardusland. But:
1. Surely, for most items that are subject to technical regulatory restrictions, the border agency itself wouldn't be able to check whether the widget was in alignment with the rules? According to Mr Davies, checks on the US-Canada border take a matter of minutes. That's not enough time to check that the Neighbourland widget crossing the border can withstand 400kPa pressure.
2. There are customs checks across the Norway-Sweden border. But since Norway is subject to EU rules, surely anything coming into the EU from Norway is already OK from a regulatory perspective?
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
Based on my own experience from long ago (I worked for a while for a company which exported electronic products), most of the work to prove regulatory alignment goes on behind the scenes.
As a production engineer, I would prepare extremely detailed reports on the characteristics of the devices in question (they were custom-made) which I would then fax (this was pre-email) to the company's agent in, say, the U.S., who would put the data in the form required by U.S. customs to prove that the product was safe and compliant so that it could cross the border.
I was a technical person and never personally involved in the paperwork and bureaucracy, but there seemed to be a lot of it.
AIR, even in those days the process of exporting to Europe was considerably easier as the company was inspected and certified as complying with the agreed standards for that industry.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, I have to admit that while the economic cock-ups being recommended by various pro-Brexit politicians didn't surprise me all that much, since a lot of them are not very bright and not very well informed,
I have to disagree. Many of them are very intelligent and well-informed. They know exactly what they are doing, but they are greedy and downright nasty.
I strongly suspect that Rees-Mogg's principle motivation is to end pesky EU meddling in the tax havens used by his "wealth management" (air quotes) company.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
1. Surely, for most items that are subject to technical regulatory restrictions, the border agency itself wouldn't be able to check whether the widget was in alignment with the rules?
As Rocinante has said, the majority of the work has been done by the exporter and shipping agent. Customs will simply check that the paperwork is in order. Customs will regularly hold goods until the paperwork is cleared up.
quote:
checks on the US-Canada border take a matter of minutes.
The point being that if you have a cross Channel ferry of trucks and cars, 2-3 minutes per vehicle x number of vehicles = hours. Unless you invest in customs facilities to provide capacity to process multiple vehicles at once. It's a lot easier on a land border than a ferry terminal where work comes in batches with pressure to get everyone through in minutes. The Netherlands has started recruiting and training almost 1000 more customs officers they anticipate needing. The number of extra border officials the UK will need is greater, but I haven't seen any recruitment campaign here.
quote:
2. There are customs checks across the Norway-Sweden border. But since Norway is subject to EU rules, surely anything coming into the EU from Norway is already OK from a regulatory perspective?
I guess it's possible that there still needs to be that confirmation that things comply. The EU institutions that regulate standards won't operate outside the EU even if other national regulations are the same. At present UK agencies are EU agencies, and have to be treated as such - post Brexit there will be a need for EU agencies to also confirm compliance.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
2. There are customs checks across the Norway-Sweden border. But since Norway is subject to EU rules, surely anything coming into the EU from Norway is already OK from a regulatory perspective?
Sweden is a member of the EU Customs Unions, whereas Norway (and other members of the EFTA aren't). The CU members have a common set of tariffs for good entering from outside the union.
For the most part, what's checked at this border is paperwork, in the case of goods with differing tariffs, they also may have duty applied to them.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
1. Surely, for most items that are subject to technical regulatory restrictions, the border agency itself wouldn't be able to check whether the widget was in alignment with the rules? According to Mr Davies, checks on the US-Canada border take a matter of minutes. That's not enough time to check that the Neighbourland widget crossing the border can withstand 400kPa pressure.
They will generally provide paperwork certifying this is the case from a regulatory agency that is recognised under the terms of the FTA. In the case of the EU the the ultimate arbiter and court of appeal for these agencies if the ECJ [Which May has made a totemistic part of regaining control].
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
Exactly, chris. It all hangs together only if there is a consistent, trustworthy, arbiter. Take that away and it's not clear how anything works (other than significantly more slowly).
The totemic, dogmatic, sticking points of Brexiteers get in the way every time.
[ 24. February 2018, 19:50: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
2. There are customs checks across the Norway-Sweden border. But since Norway is subject to EU rules, surely anything coming into the EU from Norway is already OK from a regulatory perspective?
According to this article from Politico, Norway's higher tariffs on alcohol (possible because Norway isn't a member of the EU customs union) make smuggling from Sweden attractive:
quote:
Norway has the closest possible trading relationship with the EU without actually being part of the bloc, but its border with Sweden is still a haven for smugglers that requires an alert and nimble border force. And there were 229,286 checks on vehicles crossing in 2016, up slightly on the previous two years.
That suggests, among other things, that the U.K.’s vision of a frictionless (and invisible) Northern Irish border will be difficult to achieve.
[...]
“The drivers don’t usually spend long in the customs office itself,” Nilsson said. “But on busy afternoons they can be parked in queues on the road for hours waiting for their turn,” he said.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
*snip*
I thought it worked like this:
Widgets in Ricardusland have to be able to withstand pressures of up to 400kPa, whereas in Neighbourland the regulations only require 300kPa. The border checks are required to make sure that substandard Neighbourland widgets don't enter Ricardusland. But:
1. Surely, for most items that are subject to technical regulatory restrictions, the border agency itself wouldn't be able to check whether the widget was in alignment with the rules? According to Mr Davies, checks on the US-Canada border take a matter of minutes. That's not enough time to check that the Neighbourland widget crossing the border can withstand 400kPa pressure.
*snip*
Most trade between Canada and its Southern Neighbour happens within the context of NAFTA (as well as previous agreements, such as the FTA and the Autopact). With rare exceptions, standards have been agreed through decades of bureaucrat-years. Companies have divisions preparing the paperwork and their shipments do take a few minutes, no more.
Unless cross-border trade happens within a customs or free trade agreement, a few minutes at the border is a joke.
I grew up on the border and can assure you that all sorts of other shipments, as well as the movement of people, take well more than a few minutes. The last times I crossed the border, once at Ogdensburg and the other time at Cornwall, one line of trucks went sailing through, and the other would be taking several hours and was backed up considerably-- most of the trucks were going to be thoroughly checked for cocaine and firearms (as a side issue, many US truckers lose their handguns at the border).
Major points such as Niagara Falls and Windsor in Ontario, and Surrey in BC, do not go that smoothly, and border-crossers on busy weekends should set an hour aside and sometimes more.
Unless there is a customs union, or unless the two states agree to pretend that there be no border (as UK citizenship law pretends that Irish citizens are not foreigners), the crossing at Newry will soon feature six-plus lanes, a very large parking lot, and jobs for many many many customs officers.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
That enables the Brexiteers to claim that leaving the EC has created jobs, just as they said it would!
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
It might be good if they started actually creating those jobs though. The Netherlands has it right, there will need to be more border staff and it will take time to train them (and, there's a limit to how many people they can take through training at a time). The exact number will depend on what form of Brexit our government eventually goes for, the timing will probably depend on the duration of the transition period.
We will need those people in a year, since any form of transition that is not full membership of the customs union and single market will require more staff. We won't have them, because the UK hasn't started doing anything to my knowledge. But, I'm sure the Brexiteers will find some way to blame the EU for lorry parks at the ports because there are insufficient UK staff to manage the customs clearances.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
That enables the Brexiteers to claim that leaving the EC has created jobs, just as they said it would!
I think at this point it is clear that they'll claim whatever they like and won't be freighted with things like mere facts.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Thanks to all. I think that clears up not only my question but the follow-up questions I'd thought of as well.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
We will need those people in a year, since any form of transition that is not full membership of the customs union and single market will require more staff. We won't have them, because the UK hasn't started doing anything to my knowledge. But, I'm sure the Brexiteers will find some way to blame the EU for lorry parks at the ports because there are insufficient UK staff to manage the customs clearances.
Presumably you would technically speaking only need them on the UK side if British standards became higher after Brexit?
If Britain relaxes its standards, then by definition anything that meets EU standards will meet UK standards as well, so there would be no need to check them on entry to the UK.
(If this is Mr Davis' reasoning then I think I have just proved he is lying when he says he wants British regulatory standards to be in a race to the top. I'm sure the whole thread is shocked to hear this.)
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It looks as if Labour are going to support a customs union, (but not the customs union, I suppose), and some journos are speculating that May could get defeated, if enough soft Tories line up with Labour.
But the term 'customs union' is now very elastic. It could mean high obligation and high access, a la Norway, or low obligations and low access (Canada). May wants low obligations and high access, I suppose, which will not wash.
Of course, it's not impossible to have a customs union with EU, I think Turkey does, details unknown.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Presumably you would technically speaking only need them on the UK side if British standards became higher after Brexit?
If Britain relaxes its standards, then by definition anything that meets EU standards will meet UK standards as well, so there would be no need to check them on entry to the UK.
Sure, as long as either set perfectly overlaps the other.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Of course, it's not impossible to have a customs union with EU, I think Turkey does, details unknown.
Here are the "menu options" as I understood them last July. Turkey is option 4: quote:
in a customs union with the EU (...); no single market or 'four freedoms', no ECJ, but no third-party free trade deals allowed
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
This week's Economist makes the case for membership of the EEA (option 2 in my linked-to list: Norway, notably) but then you need at least some sort of a border with NI.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Brexit and Montenegro
From that: quote:
This week, Brussels will publish its draft withdrawal agreement, a legally binding text under which the UK will, in effect, commit itself to keeping Northern Ireland in the single market and customs union, unless a future free trade deal or a magical technological solution manages somehow to avoid a hard border.
That's why I posted earlier that if I had to live in the UK, from a Brexit point of view Northern Ireland is where I would move to.
While it could end up suffering the most, Northern Ireland could conceivably have the closest thing to EU membership likely after Brexit.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
Any responses so far to Corbyn's speech on Brexit and the common market? I'm from the US but follow British news and culture closely. The speech seemed well thought-out, quite pragmatic, and politically astute. I wish Britain well with all my heart. Would love to hear thoughts from British Shipmates
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
Any responses so far to Corbyn's speech on Brexit and the common market? I'm from the US but follow British news and culture closely. The speech seemed well thought-out, quite pragmatic, and politically astute. I wish Britain well with all my heart. Would love to hear thoughts from British Shipmates
The right wing are saying that it's a betrayal, not quite sure of who. Some journalists are pointing out that it's not all that different from Mrs May's 'customs arrangement'; of course, the devil is in the detail. It's not really clear what either means, unless it is spelled out, for example, on immigration. And non-tariff barriers - but again, we need more detail, although Corbyn was talking about the Mini whose parts travel back and forth, requiring no barriers.
Obviously, Labour is making a move against May, hoping that the govt will be squeezed by her own soft Brexiteers. Then again, the pro-Brexit lobby will hope to tarnish Corbyn as selling out the referendum. Result? - no idea.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
Any responses so far to Corbyn's speech on Brexit and the common market? I'm from the US but follow British news and culture closely. The speech seemed well thought-out, quite pragmatic, and politically astute. I wish Britain well with all my heart. Would love to hear thoughts from British Shipmates
#CorbynnSpeech is trending on Twitter but it's not very informative. Some Extreme mud-slinging.
As I intimated a few page ago, I think Corbyn and the Labour leadership have adopted an incrementalist strategy.
Corbyn was accused of 'undermining Brexit.' The point is that Brexit undermines itself and in order to have any hope of moving forward in a sensible way, the Brexit lunacy needs to be seen for what it is. There is no doubt that Rees-Mogg and Davies and Boris and Farage etc. etc. will look to scape goat everyone and everything and will never admit to the damage of Brexit.
If Corbyn said we would stay in the customs union 6 months ago, I would have supported the policy but I'm not sure it would be good tactics. Since December it's been clear that the customs union is vital for Northern Ireland - by saying so now, hopefully Corbyn can bring people with him.
Similarly, He will come out for staying in the single market at some point.
This is a political high-wire act with no guarantee of anything...
YMMV
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
It's a small step towards the inevitable. The EU is too important an organisation not to be a full member of. The more the government and opposition consider the options then the more they will realise what an impossible mess anything other than retaining full EU membership will be. Though both have bought into the story that a glorified anti-democratic opinion poll is a meaningful measure of the will of the people. So, we're going to scramble around for a crap solution to squaring a circle, try to head towards a least-bad negotiating position and then find that it's impossible for the EU to accept it.
Meanwhile the Tory Party will implode. Labour won't be far behind. The country will be in an economic mess and we'll be facing a general election with several new political parties - a pro-EU Conservative, an anti-EU Conservative with really rabid anti-EU revitalising UKIP (or forming an alternative far-right party if UKIP are irredeemable), with a pro-EU Labour and an anti-EU Labour. Many "safe" Labour and Conservative seats will go to one of the splinter parties from those two, the LibDems and Greens will pick up seats, several smaller parties will do well. There'll be no clear winner, a hung-Parliament to beat all hung-Parliaments and a Constitutional crisis. But, Phoenix-like a new political system will rise from the ashes, the country will need to learn that Government will need to be on a broad consensus across parties, the days of one party so dominating that they can plunge the country through a pointless and stupid referendum to resolve internal party bickering will be gone. It may be the end of the United Kingdom as regional parties are formed and hold the balance of power, maybe a genuine federal nation as power is devolved outwards, maybe independence for nations or even regions. So, there is light at the end of the tunnel.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
If Corbyn said we would stay in the customs union 6 months ago, I would have supported the policy but I'm not sure it would be good tactics.
Yes, I think that's exactly right, 6 months ago the idea of a 'customs union' wouldn't have any political salience at all, and now it has enough that his speech has has shifted the terms of the debate somewhat.
This is an issue when you can garner the limits of someones knowledge by the point at which they start quibbling over different articles, or the use of new terminology to differentiate from existing arrangements/deals. In that sense Corbyn isn't unique - and there was a fair amount of fudge in his speech.
On the other hand he has forced the most ardent Brexiters to defend their own positions in terms they are likely to regret (Boris Johnson and Rees Mogg), with Rees Mogg raising the spectre of a TTIP like deal with the US that threatens the NHS.
He's also created some space between the business community and the Tory party in the minds of the public - which may well be useful electorally.
quote:
This is a political high-wire act with no guarantee of anything...
Indeed, and I can understand the caution with which Labour moves. The commentariat who castigates them for bottling it now would be foaming at the mouth about 'betrayal' had he made firmer steps in a remain direction.
Brexit is a by product of UKs toxic media which exists to turn outrage into cash - the UK may by good fortunate escape this particular predicament, but I have no doubt that it'll continue to weld together bandwagons of ever more nasty nutters.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
[W]ith Rees Mogg raising the spectre of a TTIP like deal with the US that threatens the NHS.
But am I right in thinking that, under Corbyn's proposal, Britain wouldn't be able to object to an TTIP-like deal concluded between the EU and US (and which would then impact Britain)?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Because you think the UK without the EU will be able to negotiate a better one?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Because you think the UK without the EU will be able to negotiate a better one?
I was thinking (if I've understood this correctly) that it's a little odd to raise the spectre of a horrible policy being negotiated by your own side if one's own policy is to allow some other people to negotiate your trade policy for you. Because then you don't know what you'll get.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
If the UK had remained in the EU it would have been able to add its voice to those around the table.
As far as I understand it, the TTIP is dead in the water due to objections from EU Member States.
Of course, being part of the EU means not always getting what you want, and it is perfactly true that if you are one party in a bilateral trade deal you are free to define your negotiating position unilaterally* without interference from pesky foreigners.
However, believing that, given the relative size of their economies, the UK will somehow have more bargaining power with the US than it would have as part of a bloc of 28 countries is, I fear, bordering on the delusional.
==
*just as we see from the ease at which the UK government has been able to swiftly and clearly set down its unilateral negotiating position with the EU-27 ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
[ 26. February 2018, 21:18: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
However, believing that, given the relative size of their economies, the UK will somehow have more bargaining power with the US than it would have as part of a bloc of 28 countries is, I fear, bordering on the delusional.
The UK, alone, could presumably refuse to sign a hypothetical TTIP-style deal with the US, if it so choose. But if the UK left the EU but was still bound to some kind of external customs union, then a similar deal could be imposed on us. (If I've understood this right.) That's the general sort of point I was trying to make.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Yes, I get that, but the problem I have with this is the "cake" aspect of this argument.
The hard Brexit logic revolves around the (as far as I can see it) myth that after it breaks free from a cumbersome customs union and single market, third countries will be positively begging the UK with its economic powerhouse to negotiate trade deals with them on terms favourable to the UK.
This to me has a whiff of the 1960s and the Commonwealth about it - not to mention the virtual disappearance of the UK manufacturing industry since those days.
From my perspective the UK has an incredibly hard time coming to terms with the fact that it doesn't occupy the world class it once did. The best way for the UK not to have deals "imposed" on it in today's world is to be part of a bigger trading bloc.
[ 26. February 2018, 21:27: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
I don't think you have to be some kind of neo-Imperialist to think that the world's fifth-largest economy might be able to negotiate a trade deal or two. It's admittedly something we haven't done for a while, but I'm sure we can be quick learners if we set our minds to it.
To follow your thinking, how on earth do Canada and Australia survive in the modern world?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
To follow your thinking, how on earth do Canada and Australia survive in the modern world?
By being part of larger trade blocs and being resource rich.
Also by having economies that do not depend on massive exports of services [and as a data-point value of services that are bundled with UK manufacturing exports are greater than the value of the manufacturing exports alone].
quote:
But am I right in thinking that, under Corbyn's proposal, Britain wouldn't be able to object to an TTIP-like deal concluded between the EU and US
That would depend entirely on the deal. However, if you are against TTIP, it was the EU objections which stopped it last time, it was the UK government that was most keen on it, and Rees-Mogg's 'drop all barriers' position is considerably worse than anything TTIP would impose.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I don't think you have to be some kind of neo-Imperialist to think that the world's fifth-largest economy might be able to negotiate a trade deal or two. It's admittedly something we haven't done for a while, but I'm sure we can be quick learners if we set our minds to it.
How long should it take to learn whether or not to put Davis, Fox, and Johnson on the case?
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I don't think you have to be some kind of neo-Imperialist to think that the world's fifth-largest economy might be able to negotiate a trade deal or two. It's admittedly something we haven't done for a while, but I'm sure we can be quick learners if we set our minds to it.
How long should it take to learn whether or not to put Davis, Fox, and Johnson on the case?
There's a uniquely British cult of the amateur that believes that most things can be breezed through and that actual expertise is both unnecessary and something a gentleman shouldn't sully himself with.
The appointments of which you speak as well as the post you respond to are illustrative of this tendency.
On another note, I see there's an interesting out contained in Corbyns speech:
"Labour would seek a final deal that gives full access to European markets and maintains the benefits of the single market and the customs union as the Brexit Secretary, David Davis promised in the House of Commons, with no new impediments to trade and no reduction in rights, standards and protections."
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
On another note, I see there's an interesting out contained in Corbyns speech:
"Labour would seek a final deal that gives full access to European markets and maintains the benefits of the single market and the customs union as the Brexit Secretary, David Davis promised in the House of Commons, with no new impediments to trade and no reduction in rights, standards and protections."
Um, isn't that option called "membership of the EU"?
Or is it called "membership of the EU without paying?"
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
There was also something about not having regulations imposed on us, but being involved in defining those regulations. Which is even more like EU membership - rather than, say, the Norway model.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Um, isn't that option called "membership of the EU"?
Or is it called "membership of the EU without paying?"
Or EFTA or something, but still, you don't understand. David Davis 'gave them his word'.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The word of a politician. Yeah, worth as much as the three pound note in my pocket.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The word of a politician. Yeah, worth as much as the three pound note in my pocket.
Absolutely, but politically it's useful to keep the promises of the Leavers in prominence as a means of holding their feet to the fire.
For those who want a softer Brexit, it also creates a reason for voting down a deal they don't like later on.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The word of a politician. Yeah, worth as much as the three pound note in my pocket.
Frankly, I would rather a politician betraying a promise rather than have them betray their constituents.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
While it could end up suffering the most, Northern Ireland could conceivably have the closest thing to EU membership likely after Brexit.
OK, who at the European Commission is reading the Ship?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
Any responses so far to Corbyn's speech on Brexit and the common market? I'm from the US but follow British news and culture closely. The speech seemed well thought-out, quite pragmatic, and politically astute. I wish Britain well with all my heart. Would love to hear thoughts from British Shipmates
Matt has it, I think.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
While it could end up suffering the most, Northern Ireland could conceivably have the closest thing to EU membership likely after Brexit.
OK, who at the European Commission is reading the Ship?
Obviously not Theresa May ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
It remains to be seen whether, as Barnier asks, she can come up with any workable alternative.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62 on 1st February:
The Irish Border will re-emerge as an insoluble problem.
And it has.
[ 28. February 2018, 12:12: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
It hasn't so much re-emerged as an insoluble problem, as it just IS an insoluble problem but for much of the time the brexiters manage to divert attention from it with some tomfoolery or other.
Before the referendum I asked a leave-voting friend "what about Ireland? the peace agreement pretty much requires that there be no border between Ulster and the republic".
He looked at me as if I was mad and said "Who gives a shit about Ireland?"
Looks like this is now government policy.
[ 28. February 2018, 13:30: Message edited by: Rocinante ]
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
Before the referendum I asked a leave-voting friend "what about Ireland? the peace agreement pretty much requires that there be no border between Ulster and the republic".
He looked at me as if I was mad and said "Who gives a shit about Ireland?"
Looks like this is now government policy.
It's a very old government policy, going right back to William the Bastard.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
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Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Government policy is to not give a shit about anyone, except themselves and the international financiers set to make a killing from the wreckage of our country.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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