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» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » Shake it all about: Brexit thread II (Page 66)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Shake it all about: Brexit thread II
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
However, believing that, given the relative size of their economies, the UK will somehow have more bargaining power with the US than it would have as part of a bloc of 28 countries is, I fear, bordering on the delusional.

The UK, alone, could presumably refuse to sign a hypothetical TTIP-style deal with the US, if it so choose. But if the UK left the EU but was still bound to some kind of external customs union, then a similar deal could be imposed on us. (If I've understood this right.) That's the general sort of point I was trying to make.
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Eutychus
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Yes, I get that, but the problem I have with this is the "cake" aspect of this argument.

The hard Brexit logic revolves around the (as far as I can see it) myth that after it breaks free from a cumbersome customs union and single market, third countries will be positively begging the UK with its economic powerhouse to negotiate trade deals with them on terms favourable to the UK.

This to me has a whiff of the 1960s and the Commonwealth about it - not to mention the virtual disappearance of the UK manufacturing industry since those days.

From my perspective the UK has an incredibly hard time coming to terms with the fact that it doesn't occupy the world class it once did. The best way for the UK not to have deals "imposed" on it in today's world is to be part of a bigger trading bloc.

[ 26. February 2018, 21:27: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Eutychus
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Oh, and before you start refusing to sign too many trade deals, consider, for instance, that the UK imports 38% of the food its inhabitants eat.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Anglican't
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I don't think you have to be some kind of neo-Imperialist to think that the world's fifth-largest economy might be able to negotiate a trade deal or two. It's admittedly something we haven't done for a while, but I'm sure we can be quick learners if we set our minds to it.

To follow your thinking, how on earth do Canada and Australia survive in the modern world?

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:

To follow your thinking, how on earth do Canada and Australia survive in the modern world?

By being part of larger trade blocs and being resource rich.

Also by having economies that do not depend on massive exports of services [and as a data-point value of services that are bundled with UK manufacturing exports are greater than the value of the manufacturing exports alone].

quote:

But am I right in thinking that, under Corbyn's proposal, Britain wouldn't be able to object to an TTIP-like deal concluded between the EU and US

That would depend entirely on the deal. However, if you are against TTIP, it was the EU objections which stopped it last time, it was the UK government that was most keen on it, and Rees-Mogg's 'drop all barriers' position is considerably worse than anything TTIP would impose.
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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I don't think you have to be some kind of neo-Imperialist to think that the world's fifth-largest economy might be able to negotiate a trade deal or two. It's admittedly something we haven't done for a while, but I'm sure we can be quick learners if we set our minds to it.

How long should it take to learn whether or not to put Davis, Fox, and Johnson on the case?

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I don't think you have to be some kind of neo-Imperialist to think that the world's fifth-largest economy might be able to negotiate a trade deal or two. It's admittedly something we haven't done for a while, but I'm sure we can be quick learners if we set our minds to it.

How long should it take to learn whether or not to put Davis, Fox, and Johnson on the case?
There's a uniquely British cult of the amateur that believes that most things can be breezed through and that actual expertise is both unnecessary and something a gentleman shouldn't sully himself with.

The appointments of which you speak as well as the post you respond to are illustrative of this tendency.

On another note, I see there's an interesting out contained in Corbyns speech:

"Labour would seek a final deal that gives full access to European markets and maintains the benefits of the single market and the customs union as the Brexit Secretary, David Davis promised in the House of Commons, with no new impediments to trade and no reduction in rights, standards and protections."

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
On another note, I see there's an interesting out contained in Corbyns speech:

"Labour would seek a final deal that gives full access to European markets and maintains the benefits of the single market and the customs union as the Brexit Secretary, David Davis promised in the House of Commons, with no new impediments to trade and no reduction in rights, standards and protections."

Um, isn't that option called "membership of the EU"?

Or is it called "membership of the EU without paying?"

[Confused]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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There was also something about not having regulations imposed on us, but being involved in defining those regulations. Which is even more like EU membership - rather than, say, the Norway model.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Um, isn't that option called "membership of the EU"?

Or is it called "membership of the EU without paying?"

Or EFTA or something, but still, you don't understand. David Davis 'gave them his word'.
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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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The word of a politician. Yeah, worth as much as the three pound note in my pocket.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The word of a politician. Yeah, worth as much as the three pound note in my pocket.

Absolutely, but politically it's useful to keep the promises of the Leavers in prominence as a means of holding their feet to the fire.

For those who want a softer Brexit, it also creates a reason for voting down a deal they don't like later on.

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The word of a politician. Yeah, worth as much as the three pound note in my pocket.

Frankly, I would rather a politician betraying a promise rather than have them betray their constituents.
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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
While it could end up suffering the most, Northern Ireland could conceivably have the closest thing to EU membership likely after Brexit.

OK, who at the European Commission is reading the Ship?

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
Any responses so far to Corbyn's speech on Brexit and the common market? I'm from the US but follow British news and culture closely. The speech seemed well thought-out, quite pragmatic, and politically astute. I wish Britain well with all my heart. Would love to hear thoughts from British Shipmates

Matt has it, I think.
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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
While it could end up suffering the most, Northern Ireland could conceivably have the closest thing to EU membership likely after Brexit.

OK, who at the European Commission is reading the Ship?
Obviously not Theresa May [Disappointed]

It remains to be seen whether, as Barnier asks, she can come up with any workable alternative.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62 on 1st February:

The Irish Border will re-emerge as an insoluble problem.

And it has.

[ 28. February 2018, 12:12: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Rocinante
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It hasn't so much re-emerged as an insoluble problem, as it just IS an insoluble problem but for much of the time the brexiters manage to divert attention from it with some tomfoolery or other.

Before the referendum I asked a leave-voting friend "what about Ireland? the peace agreement pretty much requires that there be no border between Ulster and the republic".

He looked at me as if I was mad and said "Who gives a shit about Ireland?"

Looks like this is now government policy.

[ 28. February 2018, 13:30: Message edited by: Rocinante ]

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:

Before the referendum I asked a leave-voting friend "what about Ireland? the peace agreement pretty much requires that there be no border between Ulster and the republic".

He looked at me as if I was mad and said "Who gives a shit about Ireland?"

Looks like this is now government policy.

It's a very old government policy, going right back to William the Bastard.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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Government policy is to not give a shit about anyone, except themselves and the international financiers set to make a killing from the wreckage of our country.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32411 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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