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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Non-religious music at St Sepulchre's
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Well, as I said, time will tell. That all sounds fair enough to this outsider, but I expect those with axes to grind will still be accusing TPTB and the PCC of being, in effect, liars and poltroons... ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
Go to the Charities' Commission website and you can access the church's return.
Like any charity with an income of over £100K it has to register as an individual charity.
Points to reflect on from the accounts.
1.Concert fees and rental form a large part of the church's income. That income at over £300K is significant but declining
2. The Mission Statement refers to an aim of music excellence and the church's role of the Musicians Church. The report also refers to an expanding program of hiring. There's a Music Director and a Worship Pastor on staff. Is there any background tension between those two posts which has helped to generate more heat than light?
3. The church receives grant income from outside sources (e.g. Guilds) to fund certain aspects of its musical ministry. What control and/or strings do those groups have? What oversight does/can the church exercise over those "appointees?" Not every church would be happy with those circumstances as the vision//goals of such groups are not always compatible with those of the church
4. On both sets of accounts, the list of PCC members has one name redacted. Why? Who?
5. The church has access to income few other churches enjoy -- flat rental, parish rate, NET mast rental.
6. There's a very low % of charitable giving (around £10k). That's not untypical of parish churches as it doesn't include the diocesan share
7. 20 -25% of income is spent on church running expenses (excluding salaries) Seems high
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
It's worth mentioning that the weekly service of Choral evensong and monthly sung Eucharist continues as normal and is not affected by the dispute. There was a suggestion earlier that they had been discontinued but that's not the case.
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
Really? St Sepulchre's own website describes the Sunday service thus:
Our Sunday services are informal and lively, with contemporary worship, Bible-based preaching and prayer. They are underpinned by a desire to seek the presence of God, and grow in our faith. Each Sunday there is also a lively children’s programme. ...
We celebrate Communion on the 3rd Tuesday evening and 1st Sunday of every month.
There is no mention of any "monthly Eucharist" unless that is what is referred to about the 1st Sunday, but the website gives the firm impression that it is a "contemporary" service.
The website should be up-to-date, since it has been much altered since the meeting with +Pete to include stuff about music, such as
St. Sepulchre’s is ‘The Musicians’ Church,’ and music and musicians are at the heart of our ministry. We believe that God loves music, and that He delights in how we use our gifts.
Our vision is for St. Sepulchre’s to be a place where music and musicians are valued and appreciated, a space for musicians to use, and a place where they can encounter God.
At the moment this is just so many words; and it is astonishing that The Revd Ingall thinks that musicians can encounter God in a "space" but apparently not through making music.
It is still the case that the "concerts" button has nothing at all after a concert on 16th November: at a time when nearly every central London church is listing carol services and concerts there is zilch at St Sepulchre's.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
It looks to me as though they have a choral service every Tuesday evening. On the third Tuesday of each month it is a communion service rather than evensong.
My guess is that that is a long-established pattern in a church which for many years has had no Sunday congregation.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Yes, I assumed that the 'monthly Sung Eucharist' was one of the Tuesday evening services.
I wonder if they have a full BCP Eucharist, or combine it with a shortened Evensong? A MW Report might be interesting, as long as it's from someone interested in liturgy rather than litigation.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
The music list for the "summer term" (the most recent to be posted online) suggests that the usual "canticles" and "responses" are replaced by a Communion setting. So a "proper" choral Eucharist, I suspect.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Thanks, BT - I hadn't spotted that link!
The list is rather incomplete, but yes, it does appear that the 'third Tuesday' 630pm service is a full BCP Sung Eucharist.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
The music list for the "summer term" (the most recent to be posted online) suggests that the usual "canticles" and "responses" are replaced by a Communion setting. So a "proper" choral Eucharist, I suspect.
Exactly. The weekly choral service on a Tuesday is Choral Evensong and that is replaced once a month with a Sung Eucharist.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
It must be quite a contrast to the informal Communion service on the first Sunday of the month! I do hope they at least use an authorised C of E Eucharistic Prayer, to keep the lawyers at bay.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Higgs Bosun
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# 16582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Though even this has been bypassed in the case of a church I know of. Not directly an HTB plant as far as I know, but a similar ethos: the (then) Bishop simply offered them the use of a redundant church and then gave it its own parish of which the boundary is the churchyard wall.
I know of a case like that. However, in that case the church's parish had been combined with the neighbouring parish a number of years previously. Apparently it is very hard to undo this legally. The bishop did not want to have the building deconsecrated and sold off, so invited a plant group to come, which needed the agreement of the combined parish.
In another case of the reversal of closures, the absorbed building became a 'Pioneer Ministry' within the combined parish.
Then there is the case of the combined parish, where the unused church building is now a (conevo) plant and is the parish church of its original parish. The other building and its original parish
are now combined with the active neighbour. Legally, this is moving a parish boundary, which is much easier.
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
UPDATE
This from the St Sepulchre's website
quote:
We are hoping to work with a range of musicians and groups as we put together an exciting programme of services, concerts and musical events for 2018. If you are part of a choir, orchestra or group who would like to perform here at St. Sepulchre’s as part of our programme, do please let us know! (office@stsepulchres)
Saturday Concert Series
Throughout 2018 we will be running a series of monthly Saturday evening concerts (including rehearsal time for the performers) in partnership with a variety of different external musical groups, and including high quality classical and choral music both ‘sacred’ and ‘secular’. The series will run on the third Saturday of every month, and we invite choirs and orchestras interested in performing one of these concerts to get in touch for more information.
‘Music in Worship’ series of concerts with reflections
A series of evening concerts on the first Monday of each month, starting on Monday 5th February, exploring the importance and beauty of music in worship. Each evening will be around 60-90 minutes long, roughly three quarters of which will be music, with reflections on the music and worship alongside them.
So, to replace a schedule that used to average 8 or more high-quality concerts/ lecture-recitals every month they propose 2 only, with restrictions on one of them.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Well, at least it's a start, and maybe the programme will, in time, be expanded.
But to what restrictions are you referring?
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
... So, to replace a schedule that used to average 8 or more high-quality concerts/ lecture-recitals every month they propose 2 only, with restrictions on one of them.
But that's over two per week. With that level of pressure on their day-to-day programme of ordinary church activities, they may have had a point.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
With 4 Choral Evensongs per month, plus 2 concerts per month, things are surely looking up. Perhaps, if the new programme 'works', more events may be added in due course.
BTW, what happened to those vague threats of 'legal action', whatever that may mean?
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
posted by Bishop's Finger quote:
to what restrictions are you referring?
The "Music in Worship" slot on the first Monday of the month which will be (to quote the website) quote:
exploring the importance and beauty of music in worship. Each evening will be around 60-90 minutes long, roughly three quarters of which will be music, with reflections on the music and worship alongside them.
What they want is liturgical music, rather than just something with a sacred theme or subject: so settings of the Mass maybe, but not a cantata, so appealing to a pretty niche market. And the whole thing will be packaged with "worship" which is likely to further restrict its appeal - after all, not everyone who appreciates the beauty of, say, Dvorak's Mass in D is necessarily going to be prepared to sign up for 15-25 minutes of "worship" and "reflection". That is fact - a friend enquired and was told they wanted music for worship only, not music with a sacred theme. In other words, they're already rowing back on the "compromise" reached with the Acting Bishop of London, etc.
posted by Liturgylover quote:
In addition to concerts the music list for the long-standing Tuesday evening choral service has now been published and continues as before.
Not so. First, there is no Evensong after 5th December, just a carol service on the 12th December.
Second, the inclusion of Taize chant in a service of Choral Evensong is incredibly jarring, made more so by the fact that they don't necessarily relate to the readings: for example, on 5th December a chant looking forward to the Holy Spirit is coupled with readings from Isaiah (sins purged through the blood of the Messiah) and Matthew (Palm Sunday). Of course, they're using the wrong lectionary readings but the "reflective chant" wouldn't fit the correct readings either.
I also don't quite understand why if the service is on a Tuesday they're using the lectionary readings for the second Sunday service - but then perhaps the whole idea of a lectionary schema of readings is foreign to Mr Ingall and his merry flock?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Oh dear, they really can't do anything right, can they?
First off, where's the harm in having a Carol Service (possibly with a joint Advent/Christmas theme) on 12th December? It's that time of year.
Presumably, although details are not yet on the website, the service on 19th December will be the customary 'third Tuesday' Eucharist.
Secondly, the Taize chants may well not be as 'incredibly jarring' as you suppose. This could be an experiment, which might, or might not, work, but IME such reflective chants can enhance, rather than detract from, a 'traditional' service.
Thirdly, as to lectionary readings, these are not the Law of the Medes and Persians, and can be changed if required. The Sunday readings may be used on the presumption that those attending will not have heard them on the preceding Sunday, for whatever reason.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
What they want is liturgical music, rather than just something with a sacred theme or subject: so settings of the Mass maybe, but not a cantata, so appealing to a pretty niche market. And the whole thing will be packaged with "worship" which is likely to further restrict its appeal - after all, not everyone who appreciates the beauty of, say, Dvorak's Mass in D is necessarily going to be prepared to sign up for 15-25 minutes of "worship" and "reflection". That is fact - a friend enquired and was told they wanted music for worship only, not music with a sacred theme. In other words, they're already rowing back on the "compromise" reached with the Acting Bishop of London, etc. ...
I could see how one might object if a concert hall were to insist on liturgical music rather than just music with a vaguely sacred theme. This, though, is a church, not a concert hall. It's also the musicians' church, not the musicians' vaguely religious clubhouse. I don't see how one can justify objecting to a church saying that the sort of music it wants and is going to have is music that constitutes worship. Worship is what a church is about. That is what church music is for.
I don't know what the exact wording was of the compromise to which you are referring, but it's difficult any longer to interpret this complaint as one of either principle or integrity. It sounds more like objecting just that one doesn't like the current programme because it isn't the programme your friend would have chosen if it had been his or her job to choose it.
I agree with the message of Bishop's Finger's first sentence. I think it's fair comment.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Higgs Bosun
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# 16582
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Posted
Last week I saw Lucy Worsley's programme on Evensong.* At the end they had some responses in a blues style, and quite jazzy. Thus, I can see that some Taize stuff could easily fit in with other suitably chosen music for Evensong. A bit of innovation at the Musicians' Church sounds appropriate. It is not as if there are no other places nearby doing choral evensong...
(*Partly because a friend at work has a son who is in the Hampton Court Chapel Royal Choir. However, there were no closeups of the lad.)
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Bishop's Finger quote:
to what restrictions are you referring?
The "Music in Worship" slot on the first Monday of the month which will be (to quote the website) quote:
exploring the importance and beauty of music in worship. Each evening will be around 60-90 minutes long, roughly three quarters of which will be music, with reflections on the music and worship alongside them.
What they want is liturgical music, rather than just something with a sacred theme or subject: so settings of the Mass maybe, but not a cantata, so appealing to a pretty niche market. And the whole thing will be packaged with "worship" which is likely to further restrict its appeal - after all, not everyone who appreciates the beauty of, say, Dvorak's Mass in D is necessarily going to be prepared to sign up for 15-25 minutes of "worship" and "reflection". That is fact - a friend enquired and was told they wanted music for worship only, not music with a sacred theme. In other words, they're already rowing back on the "compromise" reached with the Acting Bishop of London, etc.
posted by Liturgylover quote:
In addition to concerts the music list for the long-standing Tuesday evening choral service has now been published and continues as before.
Not so. First, there is no Evensong after 5th December, just a carol service on the 12th December.
Second, the inclusion of Taize chant in a service of Choral Evensong is incredibly jarring, made more so by the fact that they don't necessarily relate to the readings: for example, on 5th December a chant looking forward to the Holy Spirit is coupled with readings from Isaiah (sins purged through the blood of the Messiah) and Matthew (Palm Sunday). Of course, they're using the wrong lectionary readings but the "reflective chant" wouldn't fit the correct readings either.
I also don't quite understand why if the service is on a Tuesday they're using the lectionary readings for the second Sunday service - but then perhaps the whole idea of a lectionary schema of readings is foreign to Mr Ingall and his merry flock?
Yes so. This is exactly what happened in previous years - the last service before Christmas was always a carol service. As to the Taize chant, the music is selected by the Choral services Director and the church has always used the lectionary for the Sunday even before Mr Ingall and his flock arrived.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Tuesday 12th is, of course, not quite the last service before Christmas, unless they intend to cancel the 'third Tuesday' Eucharist this year, seeing as it's so close to Christmas itself.
Maybe the Director and Choir are taking a break?
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Tuesday 12th is, of course, not quite the last service before Christmas, unless they intend to cancel the 'third Tuesday' Eucharist this year, seeing as it's so close to Christmas itself.
Maybe the Director and Choir are taking a break?
IJ
Sorry, what I meant was that that pattern is a long established one in the church, and indeed elsewhere in the City churches most of whom hold their carol service in that week rather than the following week.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Yes, ISWYM. I guess many of the regulars at City churches will be 'Away' for the Christmas/New Year break.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
There is no Choral Eucharist down for 19th December. The office at SS thinks choral services will resume on 16th January. (The same office is also of the opinion that where the first Monday of a month is a bank holiday the "Music in Worship" concert won't take place so nothing in May and, in 2018 at least, nothing in April either.)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
The first Monday in April, 2018, is Easter Monday, so there's hardly likely to be a huge attendance at any church, be it in the City or elsewhere!
The same surely goes for the May Bank Holiday, I would think.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The first Monday in April, 2018, is Easter Monday, so there's hardly likely to be a huge attendance at any church, be it in the City or elsewhere!
The same surely goes for the May Bank Holiday, I would think.
IJ
Indeed. I just checked on City Events and the number of concerts last year across all the City churches on both Easter Monday and May Day Bank Holiday was zero.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Understandably so, as clergy, choirs etc. take time to draw breath after Holy Week.
It will be interesting to see, nevertheless, what services etc. St. Sepulchre's provide over Christmas this year, and Holy Week next year.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
...and just dropping in to observe that there's a fair number of concerts arranged for November:
http://stsepulchres.org/music/concerts/
There's a problem with this? They seem to be updating their website as fast as they can, but clearly not fast enough for the would-be lawyers.
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
There is no Choral Eucharist down for 19th December. The office at SS thinks choral services will resume on 16th January. (The same office is also of the opinion that where the first Monday of a month is a bank holiday the "Music in Worship" concert won't take place so nothing in May and, in 2018 at least, nothing in April either.)
The office staff probably have been told nothing definite yet about the resumption of choral services. And again, would it be the decision of the staff to make a decision that there's to be no concert on a bank holiday? I doubt it. It's scarcely fair to attack them.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Well, it seems that, for certain people, St. Sepulchre's staff can do nothing acceptable.
To give them the benefit of the doubt, maybe they are busily planning all sorts of services and events, none of which might necessarily be that easy to arrange, given the number of different people involved.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
…the church has always used the lectionary for the Sunday even before Mr Ingall and his flock arrived.
We usually use the Sunday Second Service lectionary for our midweek Eucharist. The Daily Eucharistic Lectionary really needs to be used every day if it is to make sense. The Sunday lections work for a weekly usage, but a proportion of the Wednesday congregation have already heard the Principal Service readings, so we use the Second Service readings. This gives a sense of flow/continuity from week to week with seasonal readings as appropriate, and readings which are able to stand alone without needing one to have heard the previous lection to get enough context to make sense.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The "Music in Worship" slot on the first Monday of the month which will be (to quote the website) quote:
exploring the importance and beauty of music in worship. Each evening will be around 60-90 minutes long, roughly three quarters of which will be music, with reflections on the music and worship alongside them.
What they want is liturgical music, rather than just something with a sacred theme or subject:
That sounds very restrictive, so is it necessarily the case? I can see a place for including music which isn't specifically religious yet which, played within the context of worship and placed between appropriate Christian readings and prayers, can be immensely inspiring and even challenging.
To take a parallel, one can sometimes include "secular" poems in a service which provide a powerful and thought-provoking response to a Bible reading or a sermon. Equally, one can use short video film clips to do the same. I'm not suggesting for a moment that St. S's has any intention of doing that, merely to say that the creative use of music in worship can encompass far more than "sacred" or "liturgical" stuff. The comment that this series will "explore" the use of music in worship seems to hint at this.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
IIRC, Bishop Pete mentioned it earlier in this thread.
Time will tell, but ISTM that throwing open all London churches - not just St. Sepulchre's - to fine music-making is a Good Thing.
Doubtless, the would-be litigators amongst will disagree....
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Time will tell, but ISTM that throwing open all London churches - not just St. Sepulchre's - to fine music-making is a Good Thing.
Yes, I'd agree with that. With some caveats, of course - there is value in a regular concert series being in the same location, so people know where to go, rather than being at a random church each week / month / whatever. Plus, of course, not all churches are created acoustically equal.
But a central clearing-house of churches that are willing to be concert hosts has to be a good thing.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
It does depend on the availability of willing volunteers to open up, move chairs, clean, even make coffee ....
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
So, all seems to have gone quiet on the St Sepulchre-without-Newgate front - or has it.
Was gobsmacked to find David Ingall on the TBN (Trinity Broadcasting Network) channel the other day. Having made this discovery I've kept an eye on the listings (Freeview 65 in the UK) and discover that HTB also appears on the channel under its own name. So presumably Messrs Gumbel, Ingall et al are more than happy to be associated with this organisation?
I think we should be told.
[ 17. January 2018, 14:22: Message edited by: L'organist ]
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Seriously creepy stuff - this 'prosperity Gospel' shite, yet again.
But it must work, when you look at all the bright, shiny, well-off HTB types...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
I made myself watch David Ingall speaking about Mary, Martha and Lazarus: not only would it have earned me a detention during my years studying for 'O' level Scripture but it left me not knowing whether to ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) or ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif) or ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
And Mr Ingall obviously doesn't consider himself to be ordained, a member of the Church of England, or know the correct title of the church where he has title since he is billed as David Ingall, St Sepulchre's In The City - so a bit like Carrie & Co but with tombs rather than sex???
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
L'organist wrote: quote:
So presumably Messrs Gumbel, Ingall et al are more than happy to be associated with this organisation?
Crikey. Those photos look like something out of a wet dream by Charles Pooter. Or Donald Trump.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I wonder if David Ingall has ever heard that well-known phrase You can tell a man by the company he keeps ? One would like to think so but looking at his fellows in the TBN schedules gives one pause.
There's John Hagee - a man with interesting views. Joel Osteen and Daniel Kolenda also feature in the schedules. All promoters of the "prosperity Gospel".
The rest of the schedule is like a roll-call of those Televangelists who have been exposed for claiming higher degrees and doctorates - Meyer, Hinn, Copeland, "Bishop" TD Jakes, etc, etc, etc.
Maybe now London has a bishop she may wish to look at this and have a gentle word in Mr Ingall's shell-like?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Is this entirely fair, rather than looking for an excuse to hang someone you already don't like? Don't these organisations just sell airspace to anyone who will buy a slot? If I buy my newspaper in a newsagent I don't regard it as reasonable to be criticised because other people buy soft porn there.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
There are other ways that David Ingall could preach and be broadcast without having to chare with such dubious bedfellows. There is Christian Broadcasting Network (CBN), Premier Radio (which now also has a TV arm. Above all, there is CTVC (the Churches Television Centre) which produces high-quality programmes and films, non-denominational and satisfies the criteria to be a registered charity, as set up by its founders, Lord and Lady Rank.
It is not a question of liking, or not, David Ingall: I don't know the man. However, what I know of him is that he is someone who has given solemn undertakings to his bishop and then broken them. And that he seems to think it right that he share a pubic platform with people who preach a "gospel" at variance with the CofE of which David Ingall is an priest - people, moreover, who are happy to go on record with ideas that are abhorrent (9/11 was a "punishment" for US sin) and who are brazen in their lies and personal misrepresentation.
A priest is a leader, a pastor, and should be a beacon of probity to his flock and those he wishes were of his flock. Just because Aesop made his remark about a man's chosen company in a pre-Christian pan-theistic society more than 2,500 years ago doesn't mean it should be disregarded today - after all, we value the content of the Old Testament!
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
He who lies down with a dog, rises with fleas (or words to that effect). Not Aesop, IIRC, but possibly Seneca.
Whatever - it does seem to be true.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I wonder if David Ingall has ever heard that well-known phrase You can tell a man by the company he keeps ?
Well yes, and that accusation has been levelled against one better than David Ingall.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
That reply is close to blasphemous.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Dear all,
This thread seems to have strayed a long way from worship practices at St. Sepulchre's and into gossip about the people involved.
It is also becoming, frankly, needlessly heated.
Although neither of these things are necessarily illegitimate, they are not suitable for an Ecclesiantics thread, which is to say a place for serious yet courteous discussion of worship practice.
At this point I am going to close the thread, and suggest that anyone who is interested in pursuing any of the issues arising start a new thread to do so, probably in Purgatory.
Thanks all!
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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