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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Churching of Women: Misogynistic?
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Last year, when we discussed the rite of the churching of women in the Anglican church, I heard that the response that this rite was misogynistic because it forced women who after giving birth, to be stuck in the back pew as "unclean" until they are churched (have this liturgy) to become clean.
I think this is a confusion between the Anglican churching of women and the Levitical laws of purity in which women had to engage in ritual washing after childbirth.
In the modern liturgies, the term 'churching of women' has fallen out of favor replaced by the term 'thanksgiving after childbirth'
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Errr...say what?
Would you please explain the Anglican aspect of this? Seems open to interpretation, and I'd like to know what's what before I go ballistic! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
Wikipedia has an article on rituals of the churching of women in various traditions. Apparently it can be seen as purification, blessing, or thanksgiving.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Here is the BCP liturgy. It's quite clearly about giving thanks after coming through mortal peril, and I assume it's dropped out of favour partly because childbirth is no longer seen as dangerous to the same degree.
We had a sermon though on Sunday in which the preacher said that in the Olden Days all sorts of superstitions accrued on the rite, and that mothers-in-law used to refuse to see their daughters-in-law after childbirth until the latter had been churched. Is this true?
[ 01. February 2018, 05:00: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Thanks, Dave. Seems rather murky. Might depend on how the individual woman, clergy, and congregation view it. But if someone thinks that a new mom is impure...
{Gets a clue bat.}
Reminds me, though, of the ritual mikveh bath in Judaism. I thought it was just for women, on a monthly basis (after menstruation); but converts and some men do it, too. I tend to think that the women's version was originally a goddessy thing, because it can be nurturing and rejuvenating. There is also a purification aspect. Looking through some of the rules at Mikvah.org, I think maybe there is/was a sexual hygiene aspect. The Mikvah site is really beautiful, by the way. It mostly focuses on the women's ritual. The "About" tab has a "What is a mikvah?" section. There are mini videos there, with both audio and closed captions. And the "Mikvah" section of the "Inspiration" tab has women writing about their own experiences.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Yes. Often especially if presided over by elderly male, High Church, bachelor priests.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Not sure about this thread Shipmates. Misogyny threads nearly always end up in Dead Horses, threads about Church rites are more suitable for Ecclesiantics! Will consult, meanwhile carry on here.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
I have always thought the Churching Of Women was something we women/feminists could "reclaim" and "take back"
As a woman and a mother I am very aware of the stages of the "Journey" of pregnancy, birth, privacy/seclusion/openness, and return
And however an individual woman chooses to negotiate that "Journey" can be supported by their church community. Whether that be by formal liturgy or a quiet conversation over a cup of tea; and everything in between.
Being a woman and becoming a mother is a very Broad Church too, you know
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
A bit of background.
Churching is in the 1662 BCP and was more or less universal until it gradually seems to have faded away since 1945. The BCP right is thanksgiving for delivery from childbirth which is dangerous and potentially fatal.
It had, though, accreted a number of folk beliefs, many of them a bit inchoate and incoherent, including a belief that giving birth caused impurity. Traditional clergy were adamant that the ceremony was compulsory and necessary. However, these folk beliefs tended more to be kept alive among women rather than clergy. They were passed on from mother to daughter. There were also folk traditions that attached to how it was done.
It is also about liminality, in this case for the mother, not the baby. She goes into childbirth - as marked by the word 'confinement'. Churching brings her out again.
It is possible that the Reformers may have been consciously simplifying an earlier ceremony which had more superstitious features. I don't know if there is, or was pre Vatican II, a corresponding RC ceremony that might give an indication of this. Does any shipmate know?
I think churching faded away because modern middle class women, many of whom had been in the forces, just gradually stopped doing it, and this spread down the social scale. I asked around a few years ago, and several now in their 80-90s had been churched, only one woman my age - I think at her mother's insistence, and none younger. I think the latter case would have been 40-45 years ago. The baby in question now has teenage children. There's anecdotal evidence that it survived longest in the NW Midlands, a triangle between Wolverhampton, Manchester and Liverpool.
I don't know if it's still done anywhere.
Common Worship provides rather an attractive new service of thanksgiving and dedication that could be used as its replacement. Some churches use a version of it as a dedication for those who don't really agree with infant baptism. But I know of one church a few miles away from here which uses it shortly after birth as the beginning of baptism preparation, leading up to baptism 6-8 weeks later.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
The Catholic Encyclopedia or Wikipedia will give you ample information on the RC practice,sometimes called the 'churching of women'
In Latin called a 'Thanksgiving after birth'
It is an ancient practice of both Western and Eastern Church and indeed retained after the Reformation by the Church of England.
In the modern Catholic rite when parents present a child for baptism, there is at the end of the rite of baptism a special prayer and blessing for the mother of the child as indeed also for the father of the child. This is important as the parents will be the first teachers of the child in the ways of faith.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
The idea of 'purification' after childbirth comes from earlier Jewish practice. On the second of February,40 days after the commemoration of the Birth of Jesus, the Church celebrates what used to be called the 'Purification of the Blessed Virgin Mary'. As many probably know it is now called by another name 'The Presentation of the Lord'.
One of the traditions of that feast day (nothing to do with purification nor with presentation) is that the weather on that day will give an indication of how the weather will be later on in the year. There are sayings in many European languages that if the weather is bad on 2nd Feb. the summer will be good and vice versa.
An American version of this is Groundhog Day on 2nd February.The custom was brought to USA by German Catholics who denuded the custom of any direct religious associations.
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I don't know if it's still done anywhere.
IIRC the wife of a poster on here was churched within the last year or two. I won't name them but I only know because they posted to that effect the last time this came up on here.
[ 01. February 2018, 10:51: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]
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And is it true? For if it is....
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I've not known the service (within the Anglican context) performed in any church of my experience.
FWIW, the Shorter Prayer Book published in 1946, and intended to make the 1662 BCP a little more user-friendly, does not include The Churching Of Women. Perhaps it was already falling into desuetude even then.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I think the folk-religion which had grown up around it made it untenable. My mother was led to believe in the 50s that one was seeking forgiveness for having had a baby, because that implied... sex...
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Yes indeed, and according to Ritual Notes a woman who had had a child outside wedlock had to do some form of penance before being 'churched', presumably even if she had been made pregnant by being raped....
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Don't forget that the traditional CofE title for Candlemas is The Purification of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and it was coupled together with the Presentation of the Child Jesus in the Temple.
I always understood that the timing of The Purification was roughly when it was assumed a woman would have ceased post-partum bleeding.
As for the Churching, the emphasis is very much on thanksgiving for having survived the perils of childbirth; the revision of 1928 added that a husband might accompany the woman and additional prayers were added, one of thanks for a live birth and the other very definitely geared towards someone who had suffered stillbirth or similar tragedy. Certainly in admitting the possibility that not all experiences of childbirth were good the 1928 provision was ahead of its time.
As for churching being misogynistic, I don't think so. While it is possible for a male partner/parent to give thanks after the birth of a child, it isn't them who has given birth - that experience is unique to the mother and biology decrees she is female.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Fair point re Candlemas.
The 1928 BCP was certainly ahead of its time in some ways. Pity it was never made 'legal'.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
I've done the service, by request, I suppose half a dozen times, most recently in 2017. Half of those were for mothers suffering post-natal depression. Half were mothers whose families had a tradition of it. All were by request. In fact, I've had women turn up at the church's vestry hour asking to be churched. I think it's a great service, despite the various bits of folklore that grew up around it. It keeps the mother and her experience at the centre. It's not all about the baby, like so many other services. Plus, it has (thanks to John Cosin), Psalm 116, which contains the line 'Then I said in my haste, "All men are liars."'
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Do you use the BCP service, Amos?
It's interesting to learn that it can be of help to those suffering PND. Perhaps it should be used more, given the stressful times we live in, maybe as part of the Church's healing ministry?
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Yes, I use the BCP. It's the only version I know. And I've always considered it as part of the ministry of healing. A woman who has given birth has come through a huge, dangerous, life-changing experience. This service, properly understood, is entirely focussed on bringing it, and her into the light of God's creative, redemptive, healing love.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Well, that puts it into a really positive light. Thank you.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
OK, you've convinced the hosts. To Eccles with you.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
Thanks, Amos.
That hasn't entirely got rid of my distrust of the service, which is largely to do with the timing - back to church when post partum bleeding is stopped and you are therefore no longer unclean.
But it's helped.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
No, no, no: nothing is said about that at all, I was just speculating that might explain the timing of Candlemas in relation to Christmas.
As for churching there is nothing said about timing at all; I know someone who was "churched" 2 days after giving birth.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
Sorry, L'organist, I appreciate you weren't making that link, it's just the one that's always been in my mind.
It seems a not terribly unreasonable assumption for your average woman in the pews* to make, given purity laws (and church myths & stories - eg the clergyman who allegedly objected to the OOW on the basis that a female priest might be - gasp - menstruating). Even the wiki entry (yes, yes, I know) states that the 1979 CP rite "avoids any hint of ritual impurity".
*In the pews of a low church, where I've never seen a churching service, and where my only knowledge of the service came from skimming the back of the BCP during a service sometimes. I'm sure that's where I read the 6 week thing.
[ 01. February 2018, 18:01: Message edited by: Jemima the 9th ]
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
The women who come for the service these days seem to come at various times of their own choosing after the birth--generally determined by how they feel, and when they can find to look after the baby (and sometimes other children). Of the dozen or so I've churched, only about three were regular church-goers.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Intriguing.
Doubtless there are other places where this service is held from time to time.
Do you advertise it, as it were, as part of the parish's ministry?
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I met a lady from the North of England who had been churched after all her children were born- this, I suppose, in the 1940s or 1950s- and said that there and then the expectation was that a mother would not leave the house after childbirth until she went to be churched.
So i think there is/ was a bit of purification baggage about it but that's not in the service, which IIRC (BCP in the other room) is a rather lovely thanksgiving. And perhaps now that the folk memory has receded a bit it could be reclaimed.
Anyway, I know that in the UK childbirth is vastly more safe for mother and baby than it was in 1662, but I don't think we should take it for granted and AIUI (not knowing, being [i] childless and [ii] a chap) it can be a pretty unpleasant experience while it lasts, even so. When I say bits of the [1662] litany as part of my private prayers, I always pray for women in labour alongside those who travel.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Would these be useful questions, for female shipmates only. Us blokes shouldn't try to answer, but it would be interesting to know?:-
1. As a woman, would you like to have a church ceremony to give thanks after childbirth - for you, not baptism or dedication for your baby?
2. If so, what form would you like it to take?
3. If you a woman in ministry, does this affect, or expand, your views on 1 & 2, especially 2?
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I am a mother of two. When each baby was born, the last thing I needed was to go to church. I needed casseroles, I needed child care, I needed someone to run a load of laundry and fold it, I needed a steady supply of Guinness stout. I did not need to get dressed in clothing that didn't fit yet and go to a service, for me or anybody. If you have a new baby, you have no time for anything. Period. Wish me well if you want, but don't ask me to be there.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
From what I read, it seems that the actual churching of women liturgy is not misogynistic but can be a meaningful service for some women to give thanks after childbirth. What was misogynistic were the cultural baggage associated with it?
I was under the impression, that women who were not churched could not receive the Sacrament. However in my Canadian BCP, the rubric simply states that it is fitting for the mother to receive Communion after the service, nothing in the liturgy suggests that mothers are barred from communion until they are churched.
In the modern rites of thanksgiving after childbirth, it seems that one reason for the revision is to make the rite inclusive for both mother and father. But by making it "inclusive", does that mean that the church no longer liturgically recognizes the unique maternal experience of childbirth?
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
In the modern rites of thanksgiving after childbirth, it seems that one reason for the revision is to make the rite inclusive for both mother and father. But by making it "inclusive", does that mean that the church no longer liturgically recognizes the unique maternal experience of childbirth?
In a word, YES
(In my-stuck-in-an-early-1980's feminist time-warp opinion)
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
“Purification” of the Virgin Mary seems a bit different to me. She was Jewish. Judaism is a religion with blood taboos. Christianity isn’t supposed to be.
That aside, I think ideas around childbearing have undergone a sea change in recent decades, in the developed world at least. Advances in medical technology have helped people forget what a dangerous business it is. Speaking as a pregnant lady, I don’t feel like I’m in mortal peril – and I had a pretty major scare at an early stage (and can I just say you have not lived until you’ve had a gynaecological exam in the medical emergency unit of an airport. They are not very nice places. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif) ). I’m aware I’m in a medically vulnerable state, but I feel pretty confident that my medical team are going to keep me alive.
Would I like a ceremony? I guess I’ll have to get back to you in four months when it’s all over, but thus far, (very) happy as I am to be pregnant, I have discovered that there are definitely aspects of this whole business, that, well, they basically suck like a very, very sucky thing. (I may have mentioned a gynaecological exam in the medical emergency unit of an airport. Oh and a couple of months of unremitting nausea, indigestion and exhaustion. Feeling better now, FWIW.). Some recognition of that might be nice. Like well done me for surviving.
As for not leaving the house, even today, it is traditional in China to stay confined for a good month after giving birth, and many Chinese women still do, supposedly for safety reasons. I believe it’s becoming less common though.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
Tying in with the point above about casseroles and staying home... isnt there a positive to be seen in days when weekly attendance was expected that the woman *wasnt* expected in church for 40 days. It gave a period to bond at home with the baby.
I've read about a few cultures where the first month or so the mum is expected to be looked after/not attend anything and I like that side of it!
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Puzzler
Apprentice
# 18908
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Posted
I remember my mum telling me that after I was born she had to stay in bed for ten days! Just because she had given birth.
Although she was Salvation Army, she went along to the local CofE for Churching. Can’t think why. Times change.
Posts: 27 | From: England | Registered: Jan 2018
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I remember my own mother being very miffed when my youngest sib was born that all the gifts were for the baby. With that in mind I've always made a point of taking friends who've given birth something for them - favourite scent, book, whatever; and I've always offered friends with babies babysitting if I can.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
I know somebody who was churched in the 1960’s because her Mother in law wouldn’t let her back in the house until she had been ‘done.’
Superstitions around it being unlucky to the house to let an unchurched woman in and detrimental to the thriving of the baby
It was all around the folklore that had grown up around churching and nothing about what it was meant to be. Giving thanks for a safe delivery
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Women in Vietnam (and Vietnamese women here) are still expected to confine themselves to the home for a month after delivery, and to refrain from any number of things like orange juice, etc. Also hair washing, I believe. Which usually sets up conflicts between the new mothers who can't stand the restrictions and the grandmothers who fear for their health. I had to sneak outside to get some sunshine, hoping nobody spotted me. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Puzzler:
I remember my mum telling me that after I was born she had to stay in bed for ten days! Just because she had given birth.
Although she was Salvation Army, she went along to the local CofE for Churching. Can’t think why. Times change.
The Sallies would not have offered such a service, just as they do not baptise or give Communion. They are happy to go to another church for any of the sacraments but see the role of the Army as being to evangelise.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
In the original thread, Amos wrote:
quote:
...It keeps the mother and her experience at the centre. It's not all about the baby, like so many other services. Plus, it has (thanks to John Cosin), Psalm 116, which contains the line 'Then I said in my haste, "All men are liars."'
I never had the Churching of Women; it seemed to me a little bit on the (to paraphrase the Orthodox Jewish man's prayer) "I thank you for not making me a woman" side. I wish I'd known Amos at the time.
On the other hand, even my blessed. highly intellectual, and Anglo-Catholic Mater didn't do the Churching of Women, so I don't feel quite so bad.
[ 03. February 2018, 01:29: Message edited by: Rossweisse ]
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I found section 3 much better - its for the blessing of animals. Who knew there would be a special rite of blessing for bees???
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Yes, but only so that they can provide wax for candles, in church for the use of.
No mention of the immense importance of bees in the ecology of the world generally.....
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
I was lucky enough not to put on much weight in pregnancy and only to be properly in labour for about 5-6 hours.
I sang in the church choir (including participating in a processional hymn) two days before she was born, and took her to church with me (not choir this time!) five days after. Looking back, I've no idea why. I think I wanted to feel back in control.
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
I had a difficult, dangerous labour and childbirth--I and the baby were lucky to survive, and had ten days in hospital afterwards. I'd have liked to have had a formal way to give thanks for coming through it. At the time, I was not Christian, so it wasn't in the cards.
I have, on occasion, let people know that the service exists--generally when there have been complications or when there's post-natal depression.
I don't think the service in the BCP requires improvement.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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teddybear
Shipmate
# 7842
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Yes, but only so that they can provide wax for candles, in church for the use of.
No mention of the immense importance of bees in the ecology of the world generally.....
IJ
Well that blessing probably goes back to the Middle Ages, so not a concern for them then.
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My cooking blog: http://inthekitchenwithdon.blogspot.com/
Posts: 480 | From: Topeka, Kansas USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Wulfia
Apprentice
# 18799
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Posted
The presvytera (priest's wife) at my current (Greek Orthodox) church is a big proponent of taking the traditional 40 days at home before churching. She did not follow the tradition after her first child, but was advised to do so after her second. She says it has made a wonderful difference in her recovery for these last 4 childbirths, to have that time to stay at home, rest, and bond with the baby.
She says that the "rule" that she has to stay home until she is churched is as much or more about reminding others that they need to be extra helpful with errands, et cetera (since she "can't" go out) than about limiting her behavior.
In the extremely unlikely event I ever have a child, I think I would like to also embrace the tradition. Especially as I'm a "type A" personality who is likely to do too much too soon unless something restrains me.
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Comely as Jerusalem, terrible as an army with banners.
Posts: 6 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jun 2017
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
In my rural childhood, (the Cambridgeshire uplands), churchiung was routine.
It linked into the folk beliefs of people wedded to the grind of agricultural work and issues of cleanliness/purity in an era of primitive female hygiene. Much of it was very primitive indeed - rough calico straps passed under the legs to contain the blood. They were held on by a spencer belt - the origin of today's "suspender belts," a rather different form of under garment.
Local belief, for example, meant that girls who were "ill at ease" (ie menstruating) would not be allowed to churn milk to make butter. It was believed they'd spoil the milk.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Mark, you are much older than I had previously thought. Sanitary towels (attached with safety pins to a sanitary belt) were in use throughout all but the most isolated fenland villages sixty years ago.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Of course the Padre of the Mapp and Lucia stories looks up the service for the churching of women when Mapp, by then Mrs Benjamin Mapp-Flint, believes herself to be pregnant.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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