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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Flipping Synod - especially the Lay People!
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DunkDuffel
Apprentice
# 16576
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Posted
How could the lay members of the General Synod ignore the overwhelming votes by the Diocesan Synods to approve Women Bishops?!
Grrr!
upset? Yes! Cross? YES!!!!
The C of E will be further marginalised when the nation needs to hear about the Gospel.
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DunkDuffel
Posts: 33 | From: Elephant & Castle | Registered: Aug 2011
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The Weeder
Shipmate
# 11321
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Posted
I can not believe it. I am so angry and frustrated. What sort of message does this give to the world? And to the Church. I can not type any more- I am afraid of what I might say!
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Still missing the gator
Posts: 2542 | From: LaLa Land | Registered: Apr 2006
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verticordian
Apprentice
# 17428
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Posted
Most churches I've been a part of (the churches that praise themselves upon being 'modern' and in touch with society, hmmm) would not allow women anywhere near a leadership role so I'm not sure that is a fair judgement. Whilst I definitely think the result was a bad one, the vast majority did vote in favour of women bishops.
I'm just looking forward to the day when more evangelical churches allow women into leadership positions.
Posts: 8 | From: Canterbury | Registered: Nov 2012
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The Weeder
Shipmate
# 11321
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by verticordian:
I'm just looking forward to the day when more evangelical churches allow women into leadership positions.
I attend an Evangelical C of E Church. Our PCC are very much in favour of women Bishops, and responded to that effect.
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Still missing the gator
Posts: 2542 | From: LaLa Land | Registered: Apr 2006
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
For me this is the fruit of the failure of the Church after 1992 to live up to the promises about the 'honoured status for those opposed' made during the OOW debates. That those proved to be of almost no value meant that when the changer came back for more, they found their promises to be nice - with even less teeth - to be disdained. Personally I suspect that the Third Province approach may be the best solution, given that no rational person can seriously trust the promises made; in retrospect the 1992 vote was squeaked through on the day with far too many hostages to fortune, which can't now be redeemed.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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DunkDuffel
Apprentice
# 16576
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Posted
My arithmetic says that the overall votes were:
Yes 224
No 122
Abs 2
That's a two thirds majority, overall.
I know and respect the rules of the CofE's democracy.
But this isn't right and most of us know it.
This should not stand.
Duncan Myers
Priest
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DunkDuffel
Posts: 33 | From: Elephant & Castle | Registered: Aug 2011
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Could somebody tell me what happened?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I feel very, very sad for my sisters in Christ. This is another rejection of the gifts they have to offer. I'm reminded of what Florence Nightingale said more than a century ago: quote:
I offered the church my hands, head and heart. She did not want them. I was told to stay at home and do crochet.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I feel very, very sad for my sisters in Christ. This is another rejection of the gifts they have to offer. I'm reminded of what Florence Nightingale said more than a century ago: quote:
I offered the church my hands, head and heart. She did not want them. I was told to stay at home and do crochet.
This
![[Frown]](frown.gif) ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Could somebody tell me what happened?
About 72% overall voted in favour.
To break that down, that's 90% of bishops in favour, 77% of clergy in favour, and 64% of laity in favour.
So it's a 'no'.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
insanity
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Would any other place have such a large 'yes' down as a 'no'?
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Could somebody tell me what happened?
The Church of England Synod has just voted against the women bishop measure proposed. It got more than a two-thirds majority in both the clerical houses, but there were by my arithmetic 5 too few votes in the house of laity to carry it.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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verticordian
Apprentice
# 17428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Weeder:
I attend an Evangelical C of E Church. Our PCC are very much in favour of women Bishops, and responded to that effect.
But evangelical/charismatic/happy clappy churches I have attended are very much 'no, man is head of woman therefore women cannot do anything but lead worship or speak at women's conferences' which is really depressing. They make the point of being so much more spiritual than C of E and that in their style of worship etc. they're so much more modern and young and trendy (whatever that means) but their response to issues such as this is 200 years out of date.
Posts: 8 | From: Canterbury | Registered: Nov 2012
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Ceannaideach
Shipmate
# 12007
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Posted
If six people had voted yes then it would have gone through. SIX PEOPLE! ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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"I dream of the day when I will learn to stop asking questions for which I will regret learning the answers." - Roy Greenhilt OOTS
Posts: 199 | From: Shakespeare's County | Registered: Nov 2006
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Would any other place have such a large 'yes' down as a 'no'?
Er, yes. Any voting body that required a two-thirds voting majority in three chambers/houses would have.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
There is no need for anyone to consign the Church of England to these realms. It has just consigned itself to a hell of irrelevance, mutual destruction and ultimately, quite possibly, implosion.
And it was done by a vanishingly small proportion of its membership.
It's enough to make Satan himself laugh like a drain.
[ 20. November 2012, 18:02: Message edited by: FooloftheShip ]
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Would any other place have such a large 'yes' down as a 'no'?
Er, yes. Any voting body that required a two-thirds voting majority in three chambers/houses would have.
Can you name one?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
OK
The now closed thread in Purgatory said something about gutted. So, I thought maybe Synod might have agreed to women bishops but with a ton of restrictions. The vote is a total no?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Would any other place have such a large 'yes' down as a 'no'?
Er, yes. Any voting body that required a two-thirds voting majority in three chambers/houses would have.
Can you name one?
Not off the top of my head, admittedly. But I didn't hear anyone complaining about the three-house two-thirds majority requirement before the vote. I understand your disappointment, but thems is and for ages has been the rules.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
For me this is the fruit of the failure of the Church after 1992 to live up to the promises about the 'honoured status for those opposed' made during the OOW debates. That those proved to be of almost no value meant that when the changer came back for more, they found their promises to be nice - with even less teeth - to be disdained. Personally I suspect that the Third Province approach may be the best solution, given that no rational person can seriously trust the promises made; in retrospect the 1992 vote was squeaked through on the day with far too many hostages to fortune, which can't now be redeemed.
In 1992 they should have made no provision at all for those opposed. Either women are priests or they're not, and if they are, they are priests throughout the entire province. And if they are priests, they can be bishops.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
In 1992 they should have made no provision at all for those opposed. Either women are priests or they're not, and if they are, they are priests throughout the entire province. And if they are priests, they can be bishops.
That would have been more honest and consistent, Ruth - but then the measure would never have passed. Without the promised safeguards, it would have failed by a country mile.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
OK
The now closed thread in Purgatory said something about gutted. So, I thought maybe Synod might have agreed to women bishops but with a ton of restrictions. The vote is a total no?
"Gutted" in the UK means someone feels like they are gutted, i.e., devastated by the news.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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DunkDuffel
Apprentice
# 16576
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Posted
It's a "No" to the specific proposal set before Synod.
The issue that galvanised the ever-so-slightly limited approval in the House of Laity was the provision for those who couldn't accept the ministry of women bishops.
I'm trying to be neutral but I really don't understand why this group haven't taken up the Pope's generous provisions for the to join the Ordinariate.
Any responses?
Duncan Myers
Anglican Priest
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DunkDuffel
Posts: 33 | From: Elephant & Castle | Registered: Aug 2011
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
I am utterly ashamed to be a "public representative" of such an organisation. I am depressed beyond belief. If I could walk away now, I would.
This is a dark, dark day.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DunkDuffel:
The issue that galvanised the ever-so-slightly limited approval in the House of Laity was the provision for those who couldn't accept the ministry of women bishops.
I'm trying to be neutral but I really don't understand why this group haven't taken up the Pope's generous provisions for the to join the Ordinariate.
Any responses?
Because they are conservative evangelicals?
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
Posts: 9123 | From: Near where I was before. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Arvan
Shipmate
# 13608
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Posted
Anyone know how soon the list of who voted which way is published?
Posts: 59 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I know it's easy for me to say this as a male, but there's always next time.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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DunkDuffel
Apprentice
# 16576
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Posted
Because they are conservative evangelicals?
allied to certain anglo-catholics.
My late Dad always said that politics wasn't a spectrum but a circle. The extremes bend round to meet one another. He, being German, meant radical socialism and National Socialism.
But the same principle applies to conservative evangelicalism and papist anglo-catholicism in this context.
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DunkDuffel
Posts: 33 | From: Elephant & Castle | Registered: Aug 2011
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Quite apart from anything else, the House of Laity of GS are notoriously UNrepresetantive of the C of E at large.
They forgot years ago that they are supposed to represent laity at large in the C of E and they have simply become representatives of various minority factions. They have utterly failed in their job, in preference for the glamour of being "spokespeople".
Before Justin Welby can sort out the mess over women bishops, he will need to start root and branch reform of General Synod. Utterly unfit for purpose.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Bugger.
quote:
Originally posted by The Weeder:
quote:
Originally posted by verticordian:
I'm just looking forward to the day when more evangelical churches allow women into leadership positions.
I attend an Evangelical C of E Church. Our PCC are very much in favour of women Bishops, and responded to that effect.
Ditto ditto.
Its not evangelicals who have been scuppering this.
Anyway, bugger.
Anyone for a Ship of Fools caucus on the next General Synod?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
The same thing happened with regard to union with the Methodists in the 80'
Same alliances agin it.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Anyone for a Ship of Fools caucus on the next General Synod?
That would be good.
I'm ashamed of myself for not knowing who "my" local lay members are, or talking to them about how they would vote.
I'm thoroughly depressed by this vote, as well as angry.
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Had it gone through you'd all be hailing it as a prophetic answer to prayer and evidence that the Holy Spirit is even able to guide synod to the glory of God. Not so the opposite. Funny that.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I know it's easy for me to say this as a male, but there's always next time.
How long will that take? And how many people will have left the CofE in disgust by then? How much more irrelevant will the church be in English society by the time it decides to treat women as made in the image of God?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I know it's easy for me to say this as a male, but there's always next time.
How long will that take? And how many people will have left the CofE in disgust by then? How much more irrelevant will the church be in English society by the time it decides to treat women as made in the image of God?
I'm not saying that I am happy about it, or that it isn't bad. But I do have faith in the Church. This too shall pass is what I meanter say.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Had it gone through you'd all be hailing it as a prophetic answer to prayer and evidence that the Holy Spirit is even able to guide synod to the glory of God. Not so the opposite. Funny that.
Is that what you say when the parishioners you'd been praying for die unhealed?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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hilaryg
Shipmate
# 11690
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Posted
One of the problems is getting a proper representative House of Laity - if you hold paid employment and/or have family responsibilities then it's very difficult to commit to a position which involves much weekday attendance. And the vast majority of the time the agenda seems like boring stuff
Hence the positions get filled with retired volunteers with axes to grind.
I don't think I've got words to say how shocked and angry I am.
Posts: 261 | From: back home in England | Registered: Jul 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Anyone for a Ship of Fools caucus on the next General Synod?
I'm surprised there isn't one. Could be a lively Shipmeet!
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
In 1992 they should have made no provision at all for those opposed. Either women are priests or they're not, and if they are, they are priests throughout the entire province. And if they are priests, they can be bishops.
But they did make provision for those opposed; for some strange reason they decided that it was inappropriate to tell people that they were hijacking the ship that people had joined and giving it a new belief test - that you accepted that men AND women could be priests. Not that you had to believe anything much else to be a member, mind you, so there is a certain consistency in having this one issue finessed. However the consequence of this piece of politics has now come back to haunt us - we are in a total mess over this issue. And the fact that those political promises proved to as valid as most politicians' promises has now come back to haunt us.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DunkDuffel:
Because they are conservative evangelicals?
allied to certain anglo-catholics.
My late Dad always said that politics wasn't a spectrum but a circle. The extremes bend round to meet one another. He, being German, meant radical socialism and National Socialism.
But the same principle applies to conservative evangelicalism and papist anglo-catholicism in this context.
Oh, you mean the spectrum from those who believe something to those who believe anything ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) Or should I just point out that this has violated Godwin's law?
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
For me this is the fruit of the failure of the Church after 1992 to live up to the promises about the 'honoured status for those opposed' made during the OOW debates. That those proved to be of almost no value meant that when the changer came back for more, they found their promises to be nice - with even less teeth - to be disdained. Personally I suspect that the Third Province approach may be the best solution, given that no rational person can seriously trust the promises made; in retrospect the 1992 vote was squeaked through on the day with far too many hostages to fortune, which can't now be redeemed.
For once, i agree with you.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceannaideach:
If six people had voted yes then it would have gone through. SIX PEOPLE!
I don't think it is even that - three people who voted 'no' voting 'yes' would have changed it. So now we are stuck with years more wrangling.
Had it gone through we would still have been stuck with 'years of wrangling'. There would have been legal challenges over the mealy-mouthed 'code of practice' as to what 'respect' means.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DunkDuffel:
I'm trying to be neutral but I really don't understand why this group haven't taken up the Pope's generous provisions for the to join the Ordinariate.
Any responses?
Because the catholic movement exists to witness to the catholicity of the Church of England. Since the early days of the Oxford Movement, anglo-catholics have laboured in less-than-ideal situations.
The 'catholic societies' currently see those who leave for the ordinariate as 'traitors'.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
I thought there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth on the Ship. Get a grip, people.
Look, if you want to be mad at someone, be mad at those feminists who stopped an earlier version of the legislation this summer, a version well on the way to passing . . . if only they would have supported it.
And why did they stop it?
Because of the provisions for those who cannot accept the ministry of women bishops.
It's those feminists and their own effing vindictiveness that brought about today's defeat.
Yes, irony can suck.
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The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Just once, I'd like to see St. Punk the Pious post something that wasn't completely predictable.
(How did your dogging of Nate Silver go on election day, by the way?)
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
(How did your dogging of Nate Silver go on election day, by the way?)
Um... Really?!
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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