|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Enid Blyton - trouble in toyland
|
Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
|
Posted
Apologies for linking to ''The Daily Mail'', but an article discusses the writer's home town, Beaconsfield, which is planning to have a celebration of Blyton and her work.
Some feel she is a racist. They are not happy with her memory.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2278980/Enid-Blyton-Racism-row-Blyton-festival.html
I read all the usual Blyton stuff and apart from ''lashings of cream'' and other childish happenings I can't recall much of her work.
What do folk think should Blyton be removed from the library and the toy room? Was she a writer of her time? Is she a harmless chidrens author or a racist of the worst sort?
Saul
--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
Yes - should be removed. A study by Rob Dixon, ‘Catching Then young: Sex, Race and Class in Children’s Fiction’ (Pluto Press 21978) found that, far from being ‘harmless dolls’ golliwogs were associated with fear and darkness.
In one Enid Blyton story, Here Comes Noddy Again, a golliwog wakes up Noddy at midnight and invites him to a party. He drives to a ‘dark, dark, dark wood’ and lots of golliwogs, who have been hiding in the back seat, surround him. As he gets out of the car, more golliwogs are hiding behind the trees. They strip Noddy naked and drive away. So golliwogs are associated with hijack and ambush.
Florence Upton, inspired by Blyton, wrote a story about three golliwogs called Golly, George and nigger in ‘The Three golliwogs’.
In Blyton’s The Little Black Doll, all the dolls in a dolls’ house refuse to play with Sambo, so Sambo leaves home. He finds another dolls’ house where a sick old lady lives alone. He sweeps the house for her and then he fetches the doctor, who returns with him to help the old lady. It is raining whilst they travel and, as a ‘reward’ for his good deed, Sambo becomes white. The rain has washed his blackness away so he returns to his former dolls’ house where he is welcomes – because he is now white.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
Seems to me I read several "Blyters" as a kid; if they contained racism, that made no impression on me, probably because at the time the US society in which I was living was also racist, and I knew no better.
What I recall was that the books were entertaining adventure stories, and that's why I read them.
Methinks the protestors need a teapot to hold their tempest in; it appears that later editions of Blyton's work have been blanderized to remove objectionable words and phrases, just as in the US we now have a version of Huckleberry Finn, surely one of the least-racist books ever composed, with the word "nigger" redacted and replaced with -- what was it? "Slave?"
Mind you, I object to the word "nigger" and would not use it ordinary discourse except as an example of unacceptable usage in contemporary life.
That said, neither Samuel Clemens nor Enid Blyton are contemporaries of ours, and maybe we can learn something from the fact that Clemens was ahead of his time and place in his understanding of race relations, while Blyton apparently was representative of her time and place.
I really don't see what's wrong with telling young readers, "Attitudes like these were once common and acceptable. Can you imagine? Fortunately, most of us have outgrown such crude ideas."
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
claret10
Ship's Paranoid Android
# 16341
|
Posted
Personally I read most of the Enid Blyton books as a kid, I never really noticed the racism as already said I read them for the adventure. I had a gollywog toy and it never occured to me that it was a racist toy.
However as a child I didn't have a tv and despite there being children of other races, racism wasn't an issue at my school. So I can see that possibly children brought up differently may find some of the stuff offensive.
However I feel despite the author's -isms, they are good well written stories and as long as adjusted for a modern audience they are still worth keeping.
--------------------
Just when you think life can't possibly get any worse it suddenly does
Posts: 137 | From: Somewhere, nowhere, anywhere | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Yes - should be removed. A study by Rob Dixon, ‘Catching Then young: Sex, Race and Class in Children’s Fiction’ (Pluto Press 21978) found that, far from being ‘harmless dolls’ golliwogs were associated with fear and darkness.
Incidentally, while we're on the subject of plaques, do you think the recent plaque commemorating a stay in a house by Lenin should also be removed?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
|
Posted
The Torygraph had a news item too............
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/booknews/9870065/Town-torn-over-celebrations-of-Enid-Blytons-racist-work.html
I can see that some of the imagery just won't do it in 2013.
I think this might be similar to the Huckleberry Finn discussion in the USA although I know little about that.
Racism was endemic in society at that time and was quite cutting and harmful Thank goodness that casual racism is (generally) a thing of the past.
Part of me would always wish to read a book in it's original form. I seem to remember Tin Tin was under criticism when he went to the Congo. But I can also understand that modern sensibilities would be offended at some of these views and it appears Blyton was not averse to making quite nasty comments about people with darker skin than hers.
Saul
--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
|
Posted
I never picked up on Enid Blyton being racist - my very youngest years were spent in a multicultural street in Tottenham and can vouch for the innate "colour"blindness of children when your parents are decent and tolerant, as mine were. I even had a golliwog and hand on heart never thought of it as either scary or derogatory of black children.
I do remember being very disappointed with Charles Kingsley and the Water Babies - not the whole story, which I loved, but his backhander to a character called Dennis, who was characterised negatively as being "only" a Paddy.
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
|
Posted
I think she is a product of her time, there is nothing in the language that I didn't hear from adults around me.
I now regonise that they were racist but it was nothign unusual then.
I have also read all of Agatha Christie and there are times when things casually said in her books that jar today. There is a lot of casual racist, sexist and class-ist attitudes in her writing.
It night not be quite as blatant but it is the prevailing attitudes again,but we don't suggest not reading or celebrating her.
It seems to me that we someitmes pick somebody like that to pick on so that we can exorcise our guilt about our forefathers beliefs..
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
It seems to me that we someitmes pick somebody like that to pick on so that we can exorcise our guilt about our forefathers beliefs..
Bingo.
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
I read Noddy as a child, but I didn't make any association between golliwogs and black people. It just never occurred to me.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
It seems to me that we someitmes pick somebody like that to pick on so that we can exorcise our guilt about our forefathers beliefs..
Bingo.
Indeed. I particularly enjoy Dorothy L. Sayers Lord Peter books (and always rather fancied Harriet Vane) but there is a lot of casual racism in the background, tempered with the sympathetic portrait of Lord Peter's friend Freddy Arbuthnot's relationship with his Jewish wife Rachel Levy.
As a wise History teacher taught us once, you can only judge the past by the standards of the time.
--------------------
Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
She was of her time, and needs to be read in that context. Rather like the Bible, really!
A black friend of mine at college always wore a golliwog badge. I remember her getting really cross when people started going all politically correct and saying we shouldn't be wearing them. She refused to take hers off.
I still have a black china doll, handed down to me by my grandmother. His name is 'Little Black Sambo', after the Enid Blyton story. It certainly didn't make me hate black children, in fact I've taken extra special care of the doll during my life as it is so precious, being easily breakable.
Perhaps instead of banning the stories, they can be used to teach children about racial issues and how attitudes have changed (or sadly in some cases not changed) over time.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
Several years ago, there was an intense (if short-lived) scandal here in the US when someone's 3-year-old, left alone in the TV room to watch The Lion King, somehow ran a chunk of said videotape backward, allegedly revealing an unraveling cloud of dust-motes spelling out "sex," or some such nonsense.
What adults make of such events (even when the events are factual, as I suspect the one above is not) have nothing to do with what little kids make of them.
I remember thinking at the time, "People are upset about backward-running dust-motes they think spell out "sex," but not concerned about someone leaving a 3-y.o. alone long enough to figure out how to run a videotape backwards, much less a 3-y.o. who can read "sex" in moving, shape-shifting letters and also have some idea what that word might mean in practical terms, yet be so defenseless against the Powers of Commercial Darkness as to sustain damage from reading the word?
YMMV, but that's not a 3-y.o. I'd want to share living quarters with.
However, back to the point: as is clear from this thread, kids and adults see the world differently, and adults probably do more harm than good by pitching fits over stuff like this.
Racism used to be casual and endemic. Now most (or at least many) of us are sensitized to racism. The best way to make sure that sensitivity "sticks" and even increases is to preserve the evidence of its former existence, plus evidence of the damage it caused.
Meanwhile, a great many kids still enjoy Blyton's adventure stories (plus they've apparently been sanitized for contemporary consumption). Can't we honor an author's genuine skills even while shaking our heads over her backward social notions?
If we can celebrate only "perfect" people, we'll have no one to admire at all.
I thought Richard Nixon was a paranoid freak. Despite this, he established a US relationship with the Chinese -- a significant accomplishment. The world and its inhabitants are a complicated mixed bag. Get used to it.
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
|
Posted
It is simply not true that Enid Blyton always portrayed the golliwogs in a negative light. Out of the original books I have seen, there is one very disturbing book featuring a gang of golliwogs. However, in "Noddy and the Bumpy Dog" Mr George Golly is described as "a very nice fellow" and his son Gilbert is best friends with Noddy's little neighbour, Master Tubby Bear - and the villain is a goblin; two other books feature no golliwogs but each have a monkey as a lovable rogue; and "Noddy has an Adventure" has Sammy the (white) sailor doll as the criminal, and Mr Golly as the innocent victim of crime when his plum tree is raided in the night.
I'm not a huge fan of Enid Blyton, but I'm also not a huge fan of people condemning books or films when they haven't seen the originals. I also think that, fifty years on, it's pretty easy to spot the flaws and prejudice in Enid Blyton. I'd be far more worried by some of the underlying assumptions in Twilight, for example.
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
Agrees with Porridge for once! For heavens sake guys! ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
I used to love Enid Blyton, I even nicked the "Famous Five" and "Faraway Tree" books out of my sisters' bedroom to read when I was young.
We also had gollywogs, and never associated them with black people. Nothing was really a problem until these self-righteous busy-body do-gooders made them problems.
Oh yes, I vaguely recall that we had a sense of humour back in those days as well!
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Kat in the Hat
Shipmate
# 2557
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I still have a black china doll, handed down to me by my grandmother. His name is 'Little Black Sambo', after the Enid Blyton story. It certainly didn't make me hate black children, in fact I've taken extra special care of the doll during my life as it is so precious, being easily breakable.
I think your doll is more likely to be named after the Helen Bannerman book "Little Black Sambo". A story I remember with affection from childhood.
--------------------
Less is more ...
Posts: 485 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
Porridge wrote:
quote:
Methinks the protestors need a teapot to hold their tempest in; it appears that later editions of Blyton's work have been blanderized to remove objectionable words and phrases, just as in the US we now have a version of Huckleberry Finn, surely one of the least-racist books ever composed, with the word "nigger" redacted and replaced with -- what was it? "Slave?"
In fairness to the editor of that book, he wasn't trying to put togehter a definitive edition of Huckleberry Finn to replace all the others. He said that he considered the book to be worthy of teaching, but his concern was that, as written, it becoming impossible to teach in mixed-race classroooms, because the constant use of the word "nigger" was often causing discomfort and disruption.
As I recall, he also wrote an introduction to his edition, explaining his purpose, and thus letting the readers know that it wasn't the book exactly as written.
Havving said that, it seems to me that there was an alternative, less bowdlerish solution to the problem the editor was grappling with, ie. simply don't teach Huckleberry Finn. Only a very small number of books can be taught in any given English class, and there's no reason why Huckleberry Finn, great though it is, has to be one of them. Lots of kids graduate from high-school without ever having studied the book formally, I'm sure.
[ 15. February 2013, 23:12: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
She was of her time, and needs to be read in that context. Rather like the Bible, really!
A black friend of mine at college always wore a golliwog badge. I remember her getting really cross when people started going all politically correct and saying we shouldn't be wearing them. She refused to take hers off.
I still have a black china doll, handed down to me by my grandmother. His name is 'Little Black Sambo', after the Enid Blyton story. It certainly didn't make me hate black children, in fact I've taken extra special care of the doll during my life as it is so precious, being easily breakable.
Perhaps instead of banning the stories, they can be used to teach children about racial issues and how attitudes have changed (or sadly in some cases not changed) over time.
Just because something doesn't make you hate black people doesn't mean it isn't racist. Just because a black person is OK with something doesn't mean that thing isn't racist. Golliwogs are racist, no matter how beloved they are.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
anne
Shipmate
# 73
|
Posted
In my memory of Enid Blyton's books - and I must have read scores of them as a child in the 70s - the worst racism is directed towards Gypsies and travellers.
The Secret Seven and Famous Five seemed to spend a great deal of time foiling the evil intents of "swarthy", gypsies with dark curly hair. Partly I think that this seems worse to me than the "Gollywog" stories, because those are clearly about toys rather than people.
A child reading about naughty gollywogs or teddy bears or toy soldiers may be less influenced in their attitude to race than a child reading a book in which people from a particular ethnic group commit crimes and are thwarted by heroic children from another ethnic group (and a dog.)
Actually, if I was looking for a reason to ban Blyton, it would probably be on the basis of sexism rather than racism, but what do I know?
Anne
--------------------
‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I read Noddy as a child, but I didn't make any association between golliwogs and black people. It just never occurred to me.
I think we read our own ideas into things. Leo's insistent narrative above reminds me of the scene in Chasing Amy where the militant Black Power speaker retells Star Wars as a racist tale of a black guy committing crimes, and in the end taking his black face off and finding redemption when he's revealed to be a white guy underneath.
Yes there was racism in the past and much imagery pricks our modern sensibilities now. But in children's fiction, sometimes a golliwog is just a golliwog.
--------------------
“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
|
Posted
I think someone on that council had better then to also remove Shakespoeare , anti black & anti semetic, Any author of the 19th century who shows a
white" Britain.
Come on people Enid Blyton wrote in an era before mul;ticultutalosm . Same notation for C.S. Lewis Natnia is a replay op]of Britain, his space trilogy totally white . I think we need to honour Enid Blyton her books had little to no violence and encouraged people working together ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
Censorship because "we know better" doesn't have a brilliant track record for producing social improvement.
I appreciate that the word "discrimination" has nasty overtones but it also has necessary ones. Picking up on Porridge's story of the three year old may bring out my point.
One of the skills we learn is the ability to discriminate usefully. Between good and bad, helpful and harmful. "Fire hot, can burn". "Fire good, keeps us warm when it's cold". Parents engage with us in that process, point things out, answer questions.
I loved reading to my children and I love reading to my grandchildren. IME children ask questions about stories and part of the delight of reading to them and with them is the surprising questions they come out with. There are always plenty of opportunities to explain.
Enid Blyton's stories contain lots of good things about friendship and helping out people in trouble. And they also contain some "antique" social attitudes, common enough in her time but now recognised as neither helpful nor fair. Children can enjoy the stories today (many still do) and be helped to discriminate. Between forms of discrimination which are unfair - and those which are helpful.
We've made discrimination such a dirty word these days. To be opposed to the discrimination which demeans others is an excellent value. But that's not all there is to say. It's easy to overlook a much more positive benefit.
To discriminate simply means to mark or perceive distinguishing features. And leaning to do that well, without prejudice, is very helpful.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
Strange thread, Porridge and Mark Betts agree and Barnabas62 and I do not.
Yes, there has been widespread casual racism in the past. No, no one is perfect. Many of our heroes have had feet of clay.
Does one throw away Shakespeare for his antisemitism, Churchill for his racism, George Washington for his poor treatment of Native Americans? No, but one does highlight these faults. One does not forget.
Burn Blyton's books, bury her memory? No. Celebrate her legacy? I am not so certain. A teaching moment is available through Huck Finn, I am not so convinced it is through The Little Black Doll.
A thought: It is considerably easier to dismiss "quaint" attitudes of the past if you have not experienced those attitudes yourself.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
lilbuddha wrote:
quote:
Burn Blyton's books, bury her memory? No. Celebrate her legacy? I am not so certain.
That's the thing. These discissions often get forced into a false dilemna, ie. you either support the special treatment being afforded this writer(eg. festivals in her honour), or you support censorship. But of course there are innumerable points in between those two approaches.
That said, if Blyton's work does indeed have continuing literary merit, I can understand people wanting to commemorate her in some way, especially in her home region. Now, with a writer like Shakespeare, you could hold conferences on his work that includes discussion of his less palatable aspects(eg. anti-semitism), since Shakespeare naturally lends himself to the discussion of important topics in the first place.
But from what I've been told about Blyton(never having read her), there doesn't seem to be a lot to chew on in terms of nuancing her racial attitudes. We can debate whether Jim in Huckleberry Finn represents a groundbreaking portrayal of a fully human black man, or if Twain, despite his intentions, was still somewhat stuck in the old racial stereotyping(eg. it's been argued that Jim is essentially child-like).
But with stuff like this, it doesn't look to me like there would be much of a springboard to discussion. Blyton seems to have just been using cheap racial caricatures(not even original to her books) for the purposes of popular entertainment.
[ 16. February 2013, 06:23: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
To say it again, I've never read Blyton, so if I have in any way misconstrued her work, consider that retracted. My general point about there being a difference between writers like Mark Twain and writers like [Name your favorite racially-insensitive hack] still stands.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
Oh I know all about being on the receiving end of "quaint" i.e. demeaning attitudes. I'm a working class Geordie by upbringing in a much more class-ridden UK than exists today. I learned to distinguish between thoughtless automatic culture-conditioned attitudes and genuine meanness of spirit. If you confront them, you do so in different ways.
I don't think Enid Blyton's books encourage meanness of spirit and they don't have to perpetuate thoughtless attitudes either. It ain't rocket science to dinstinguish between the two.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
|
Posted
Somehow we want our authors (like our politicians, film stars, music stars) to be a form of ''perfect'' don't we?
Shakespeare's lines where, is it Shylock, protests his humanity (do I not bleed, do I not etc etc etc)show am empathy the writer has to Jewish people surely? Yet he wasn't averse to making ''the other'', the different, a scoundrel.
I suppose for me Blyton's work sums up an idealistic and never reachable middle class ''perfection'' that is much more strongly perceived than the undoubted racism. The children all seemed to be middle class and of course they had the ability to become ensnared in amazing adventures.
Like all of us, Blyton was flawed. No reason then for the good citizens of Beaconsfield from not celebrating her, it seems from responses thus far?
I shan't be going anyway, but the discussions have been interesting.
Saul the Apostle.
--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
cross eyed bear
Shipmate
# 13977
|
Posted
I loved Enid Blyton as a child. She wrote far more than the toyland books, which I never got into.
My Blyton phase lasted from 6-8, in which time I read all the famous five, secret seven, five find outers (or was it 4? ), all three school series, willow/cherry tree farm, and a load more. I didn't read the toyland stories and didn't enjoy Magic Faraway Tree, etc.
I think I enjoyed her books as they showed children being independent and taking perceived adult roles. They are childcentric books, with adults either being the villain or just taking a periphery role. They also often have a sanctimonious tone, with the good children always winning. As a good child, I liked this.
At 8, I couldn't cope with the sanctimonious tone any more and laid the books aside. I'm thankful for the two years of exciting reading she gave me.
Even during my fan phase, it was very clear that she was writing in another time. Children going into tearooms on their own. Tearooms full stop. Long bike tours, with stopovers at one of the many farmhouses on the way. The language. Tere was always a sense that this was escapist fantasy.
Some of the books do have the casual racist attitudes of their time, but by far and away not all. I remember noticing one incident in retrospect in a rare book of hers about six naughty children and how all but one - a boy with an Irish name - repent. At the time, I found it exciting that one hadn't repented, didn't pick up on the name. I didn't notice an Indian classmate looked different until I was about 10, though - children can often be colour blind.
Enid Blyton is a matter of taste and she wrote in a time which is not ours. I took enjoyment from the books, as indeed my 8 year old niece is apparently also doing. We grow out of them soon enough and I was certainly able to recognise that her time was not mine
--------------------
"One false step in my direction, you'd better believe in the resurrection" Stillgoe & Skellern's "Mrs Beamish"
Posts: 120 | From: Southern Germany | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Celebrate her legacy? I am not so certain. A teaching moment is available through Huck Finn, I am not so convinced it is through The Little Black Doll.
Enid Blyton wrote literally hundreds of books. I spent my childhood in the 80s and 90s reading her and I have boxes of her books in storage. Yet I never once come across her golliwog character. Yet this one or two short tales are being used by some people to ruin her entire legacy? This is ridiculous to me.
What should Blyton be remembered for. One or two short tales that now offend us? Or her entire body of work? Blyton was a wonderful entertainer and has enthralled generations of children, expanding their imaginations and fueling their dreams. She should be celebrated as one of our greatest children's authors.
But if we want practical reasons to celebrate the messages of her books then how about the way she talks about animals and the environment. Her characters always cared for animals and protected them from others. I remember Philip especially instilled a great love for animals in me, and a respect for nature.
She portrays the natural world so beautifully, as a wild, exciting playground. As a kid, you just want to get outside in the fresh air and join her characters on the moors and the seashore. Her books shows you the value of friendship and teamwork, and courage when facing bad people. One of her standalone books was all about a group of children setting up a club dedicated to doing good deeds for people in their village.
Enid Blyton is one of the most positive influences we have for our children and should not only be celebrated but encouraged. I will certainly be passing my Blyton books on to my future children, just as my mother passed them to me.
--------------------
“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
ElaineC
Shipmate
# 12244
|
Posted
I learnt to read with 'Noddy Goes to Toyland' and other Noddy books in the late 50's. As has been said further up the thread, I never associated the golliwog character with real people. My favourite Blyton books were the girls boarding school series. She was very much of that time
Thinking about that time I never met a non-white person in my school days. I went to a private primary school and then a grammar school. I worked in the defence industry when I left college and you had to be security cleared and there weren't many non-white people who qualified. That changed gradually over the years.
I still have to have security clearance in my present job and three out of the four members of my team are non-white.
--------------------
Music is the only language in which you cannot say a mean or sarcastic thing. John Erskine
Posts: 464 | From: Orpington, Kent, UK | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
bib
Shipmate
# 13074
|
Posted
I loved the Enid Blyton books I read as a child and didn't find anything objectionable in the them. It is unfortunate that EB books are being analyzed by politically correct adults who reckon they can regulate children's minds and feelings. My late mother was a school librarian who resisted the instruction to remove EB books from her library as she said there were some children who needed an easy read in order to encourage them on to a wider range of books.
--------------------
"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
... Golliwogs are racist, no matter how beloved they are.
No, not 'are', 'have become'. Debate has made people sensitised to the issue. Fifty years ago, Golliwogs meant jam.
I didn't read much Enid Blyton as a child, and am not sure why. People gave my children them and I've read them aloud. If I were to follow the fashion and condemn her writing, it would be for spiritual complacency rather than the more usual accusations.
Much of it seems to be of the school,
"Celia had never known anything but poverty. Her father was poor. Her mother was poor. Her grandparents were poor. The butler was poor. The cook was poor. The maids were poor. the gardener was poor. Even the boot boy was poor."
Having said that, and moving on from her works, it does now sound as though she wasn't a very nice person and was given to self-deception.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
I echo Hawk's comment that Blyton wrote hundreds of books; to focus in on one, as leo does, seems unfair.
Blyton's basic premise was that white, middle-class Englishmen were the pinnacle of creation. White working class people, like "cook" or "gardener" or assorted farmers, were ok, but their main role was to show their admiration of the superior middle-classes and keep them fed.
Americans may have been white, but they were inevitably loud, badly-spoken, chewed gum and were often despicably nouveau-riche.
Eastern Europeans were white but inevitably sinister and often part of an international jewel stealing gang. There was an English boy in one who was blighted by a French step-father, IIRC.
Her attitude towards gypsies was deeply racist.
But generally, the further a character was from the white, middle-class English ideal, the more character flaws they were likely to have.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
In the study I mentioned above, there is an account of a London infants school where a maternity cover teacher read Blyton to her class and the playground became very racist where it hadn't been before.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
Well, leo, I suppose if it was just dished out without comment. But that's not teaching, is it?
On the wider point, do we really need to get all binary about these things? I think there is a scale of toxicity associated with art and literature of all kinds. On my own personal scale of 1-10, I'd give Martin Luther's The Jews and Their Lies a definite 10, and even the most excessively middle-class snobby-superior Blyton story about a 3.
Surely it's possible to see the difference? And you'll note that Luther's diatribe is available via the Jewish Virtual Library; required reading for anyone interested in the development of antisemitic tendencies within Christianity, but pretty confusing if presented as a model of protestant Christian thinking on the subject. I keep saying; we need to distinguish. We need to learn tools to enable us to do that.
[BTW, that link is so nasty that I'm not sure it's work safe.]
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
In the study I mentioned above, there is an account of a London infants school where a maternity cover teacher read Blyton to her class and the playground became very racist where it hadn't been before.
What story was the maternity cover teacher choosing to read to her class? I read Blyton to my children as bedtime stories, but I'd like to think I had the nous to avoid any of the racist ones. And I'm not a trained teacher.
(I can remember missing out comments about "foreign" boys squealing when they were hit by a cricket ball, unlike stalwart English boys!)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
|
Posted
Like a lot of her contemprories, there is indeed a lot of casual racism (and sexism) in Blyton's books. But that doesn't mean we should ban them or try to diminish her achievements. It simply means that we have to read them in the light of where we are today.
Not long ago, I read the entire series of Richard Hannay adventures by John Buchan. They are still great stories, but again, you have to make a mental adjustment to cope with the racism and the unspoken assumption that even strong women belong in the home and go all to pieces as soon as a man is around.
I've always loved Blyton's "Adventure" series (Circus of Adventure, Valley of Adventure etc). I would still recommend them to children - cracking stories that any half-way decent child can get immersed in. I doubt that children reading these books would end up racists or sexists - but there may be some very interesting conversations to be had afterwards!
--------------------
Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I echo Hawk's comment that Blyton wrote hundreds of books; to focus in on one, as leo does, seems unfair.
Blyton's basic premise was that white, middle-class Englishmen were the pinnacle of creation. White working class people, like "cook" or "gardener" or assorted farmers, were ok, but their main role was to show their admiration of the superior middle-classes and keep them fed.
Americans may have been white, but they were inevitably loud, badly-spoken, chewed gum and were often despicably nouveau-riche.
Eastern Europeans were white but inevitably sinister and often part of an international jewel stealing gang. There was an English boy in one who was blighted by a French step-father, IIRC.
Her attitude towards gypsies was deeply racist.
But generally, the further a character was from the white, middle-class English ideal, the more character flaws they were likely to have.
NEQ
seems to have put the finger on the pulse here.
Often the stories were about middle class children and anything else was the other. Joyce Grenfell was famously quoted about having a Jewish person in her kitchen and not feeling right about it. The doyen of prissy humour; but all par for the course at that time.
The trouble is with the blinkered world that Blyton inhabits, is that it doesn't seem to look beyond those close confines, but she was never perfection and she churned out these tales by the dozen.
Growing up in Liverpool in the late 60s 70s was interesting as the Dorset exploration ground of these privileged children and the freedom they had was an idyll that seemed out of reach. My friend was mixed race and he enjoyed the stories but maybe he saw them for what they were childrens escapist tales.
In 2009 Helena Bonham Carter played Blyton and her comments about Blyton are interesting; she was a flawed individual - aren't we all?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1227422/New-TV-drama-reveals-Enid-Blyton-barking-mad-adulterous-bully.html
Saul
--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
In the study I mentioned above, there is an account of a London infants school where a maternity cover teacher read Blyton to her class and the playground became very racist where it hadn't been before.
What story was the maternity cover teacher choosing to read to her class? I read Blyton to my children as bedtime stories, but I'd like to think I had the nous to avoid any of the racist ones. And I'm not a trained teacher.
Can't remember - I read the study a long time ago.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
Just checked - it was Little Black Sambo.
This thread seems like a rerun of debate all the way back in 1972. quote:
which began when Bridget Harris of the Teachers Against Racism group gave a statement on Little Black Sambo to The Times which was to print an article on the new, boxed set of the com¬plete works of Helen Bannerman. The statement aroused a storm of fury from outraged readers who had loved Little Black Sambo when they were children and who thought that Teachers Against Racism were seeing harm where none existed. The Times published at least twenty letters attacking the position outlined by Harris and only three in favour.
Those who say that they loved the stories and that they didn't to them any harm (the sort of statement made by Tory MPs about corporal punishment who later get caught in spanking parlours) should note this: quote:
What strikes me is that so many writers of the other letters apparently found it enough to assert that they, personally, had found the stories, or Little Black Sambo, charming, lovable, amusing, interesting or enjoyable. This kind of view often goes with an it-never-did-any-harm-to-me attitude. But what are such arguments — if they can be called that — supposed to prove? Both these attitudes are quite beside the point. It's what all racist books have done to all children over a long period of time that matters. Whether a particular child was affected by a particular book or not is irrelevant. People exposed to infec¬tious diseases don't always catch them. Also, of course, we don't have to take their word for it when people say a book never did them any harm.
and this: quote:
As a Black Briton, born and educated in this country, I detested LBS as much as I did the other textbooks which presented non-white people as living entirely in primitive conditions and having no culture. I did not relate to him, but the white children in my class identified me with him."
(Source is the book I mentioned above.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
... Golliwogs are racist, no matter how beloved they are.
No, not 'are', 'have become'. Debate has made people sensitised to the issue. Fifty years ago, Golliwogs meant jam.
I didn't read much Enid Blyton as a child, and am not sure why. People gave my children them and I've read them aloud. If I were to follow the fashion and condemn her writing, it would be for spiritual complacency rather than the more usual accusations.
Much of it seems to be of the school,
"Celia had never known anything but poverty. Her father was poor. Her mother was poor. Her grandparents were poor. The butler was poor. The cook was poor. The maids were poor. the gardener was poor. Even the boot boy was poor."
Having said that, and moving on from her works, it does now sound as though she wasn't a very nice person and was given to self-deception.
No, golliwogs are racist by their nature. They portray black people in a racist way, it doesn't matter how many people associated them with jam. They haven't become racist because people are pointing out the racism ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
I'm astonished that a teacher, who must have access to hundreds of story books, chose "Little Black Sambo" (by Helen Bannerman, not Enid Blyton, as already pointed out) to read to her class.
Bannerman, born in 1862, was two generations earlier than Blyton. LBS was published in 1898. It predates Beatrix Potter's "Peter Rabbit."
I don't think many Victorian books for very young children really work today. And I certainly don't think that you can argue against Enid Blyton because a book by a different author published many years earlier is now seen as racist.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
No, golliwogs are racist by their nature. They portray black people in a racist way, it doesn't matter how many people associated them with jam. They haven't become racist because people are pointing out the racism
I'm afraid not. Golliwogs have become racist because at somepoint it has been decided they are racist and it has been pointed out.
If they existed and were not racist by intent or perception in the past then they are not "by their nature" racist, it has only been through 'pointing out' that they have become racist.
The doll was a characature of black people, in the same fashion that other characatures exist of other groups of people (most recently Bankers, journalists, corrupt-police officers, politicians etc. etc. etc.) - it is a fundamentally human thing to characterise people, and in the course of describing a bunch of people to use a quick and simple word (in the same way that you instinctivly use the acronym LGBTQ to describe a particular sub-set of humanity with the acronym by its very nature excluding others and paints a picture of the group you are referring to.)
Whether the term 'golliwog' and it's shorter form 'wog' are racist now is still open for debate with films such as 'The Wog Boy' being an example of where hte term is used as a humourous self-identifier rather than as having conotations of a racial slur.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I'm astonished that a teacher, who must have access to hundreds of story books, chose "Little Black Sambo" (by Helen Bannerman, not Enid Blyton, as already pointed out) to read to her class.
Bannerman, born in 1862, was two generations earlier than Blyton. LBS was published in 1898. It predates Beatrix Potter's "Peter Rabbit."
I don't think many Victorian books for very young children really work today. And I certainly don't think that you can argue against Enid Blyton because a book by a different author published many years earlier is now seen as racist.
There are plenty of racist examples in Blyton - like when Noddy is in a car and lots of gollywogs pop up from hiding, take him to the woods and strip him naked. (echoes the 'How many niggers can you get into a mini?' 'joke'.)
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
There are plenty of racist examples in Blyton - like when Noddy is in a car and lots of gollywogs pop up from hiding, take him to the woods and strip him naked. (echoes the 'How many niggers can you get into a mini?' 'joke'.)
So your point is that it is racist because, I'm guessing, it presents black people as criminals?
If so your charge of racism would only hold if each and every 'bad' person in Blyton's books were presented through the golliwog characters which as demonstrated above isn't the case.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
No, golliwogs are racist by their nature. They portray black people in a racist way, it doesn't matter how many people associated them with jam. They haven't become racist because people are pointing out the racism
I'm afraid not. Golliwogs have become racist because at somepoint it has been decided they are racist and it has been pointed out.
If they existed and were not racist by intent or perception in the past then they are not "by their nature" racist, it has only been through 'pointing out' that they have become racist.
The doll was a characature of black people, in the same fashion that other characatures exist of other groups of people (most recently Bankers, journalists, corrupt-police officers, politicians etc. etc. etc.) - it is a fundamentally human thing to characterise people, and in the course of describing a bunch of people to use a quick and simple word (in the same way that you instinctivly use the acronym LGBTQ to describe a particular sub-set of humanity with the acronym by its very nature excluding others and paints a picture of the group you are referring to.)
Whether the term 'golliwog' and it's shorter form 'wog' are racist now is still open for debate with films such as 'The Wog Boy' being an example of where hte term is used as a humourous self-identifier rather than as having conotations of a racial slur.
I am astonished that people can still believe this in the 21st Century. Blyton;s golliwogs are always naughty, as in the 'dark, dark wood'story. and there is a family of them named 'mumbo jumbo' who eat 24 pancakes in one sitting. Mumbo Jumbo is hardly a value-free term which later became dubbed 'racist'.
It was also, when first invented, meant to be hated: quote:
The Golliwogg was based on a Black minstrel doll that Upton had played with as a small child in New York. The then-nameless "Negro minstrel doll" was treated roughly by the Upton children. Upton reminiscenced: "Seated upon a flowerpot in the garden, his kindly face was a target for rubber balls..., the game being to knock him over backwards. It pains me now to think of those little rag legs flying ignominiously over his head, yet that was a long time ago, and before he had become a personality.... We knew he was ugly!" Upton's Golliwogg character, like the rag doll which inspired it, was ugly. He was often drawn with paws instead of hands and feet. He had a coal black face, thick lips, wide eyes, and a mass of long unruly hair.3 He was a cross between a dwarf-sized black minstrel and an animal. The appearance was distorted and frightening
The Golliwog Caricature Dr. David Pilgrim, Professor of Sociology, Ferris State University Nov 2001
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I'm astonished that a teacher, who must have access to hundreds of story books, chose "Little Black Sambo" (by Helen Bannerman, not Enid Blyton, as already pointed out) to read to her class.
Bannerman, born in 1862, was two generations earlier than Blyton. LBS was published in 1898. It predates Beatrix Potter's "Peter Rabbit."
I don't think many Victorian books for very young children really work today. And I certainly don't think that you can argue against Enid Blyton because a book by a different author published many years earlier is now seen as racist.
There are plenty of racist examples in Blyton - like when Noddy is in a car and lots of gollywogs pop up from hiding, take him to the woods and strip him naked. (echoes the 'How many niggers can you get into a mini?' 'joke'.)
I'm not disputing that there are lots of examples of racism in Blyton; I'm just surprised that a trained teacher would choose a book which has been regarded as racist for several decades now as suitable to read to a class of infants.
Wikipaedia says that Blyton wrote an "estimated 800 books" Some are utter dross. It seems unfair to pick out a couple of examples and damn her entire output.
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
I've always loved Blyton's "Adventure" series (Circus of Adventure, Valley of Adventure etc). I would still recommend them to children - cracking stories that any half-way decent child can get immersed in.
The "Adventure" series was my favourite, too, followed by the Five-Find-Outers and Malory Towers.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
There are plenty of racist examples in Blyton - like when Noddy is in a car and lots of gollywogs pop up from hiding, take him to the woods and strip him naked. (echoes the 'How many niggers can you get into a mini?' 'joke'.)
Does it? I've never read a Noddy book at all, but Wikipedia tells me that 17 of the 24 Noddy books were published before 1959 (when the Mini was introduced) which rather suggests that wasn't Blyton's intention at all.
PS
I haven't heard this 'joke'. What is the 'punchline' to it?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Blyton;s golliwogs are always naughty, as in the 'dark, dark wood'story.
Hardly true, one example does not make for a confirmed fact in all situations.
Since you evoke Upton, her writtings presenteed the golliwog as a jovial, friendly and gallant - hardly the negative characature of an entire group of people, in fact as the peep you mention makes reference to (although hidden fairly well within an entirety of negativity on the issue) and this article, rather unexpectedly, from the that lefty-rag seems to suggest that we are reading far too much into what Enid Blyton wrote...
And yes mumbo-jumbo isn't an weighted-free term (and since I never read Noddy I have no idea of the context but...) in its historic usage refers to the veneration of false idols rather than much else... so it's quite possible that Enid Blyton is making some social comment on a meanigless ritual in through the characters rather than being derogatory - as I say I never read Noddy (I was much more Thomas the Tank Engine at that age - even now I have to confess ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) - so I may be wrong and that would clearly be shown by the context of the piece.)
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
