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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is high Anglicanism still allowed to be fun?
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(S)pike couchant
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# 17199
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Posted
I've been wondering this recently. High Anglicanism used to be fun, with harmless little affectations like singing 'I'll sing a hymn to Mary' to the tune of the Eton boating song, and drinking pink gin on the two 'Rose Sundays'. Clerics were often known by the pet names — generally somewhat irreverent — that they acquired in seminary. These days, that sort of religion lives on in maybe one or two parishes in London and a tiny handful in the rest of England (primarily in Brighton and Oxford, I think) and perhaps in one or two of the major 'shrine' parishes on the Eastern Seaboard of the USA. In its place, there seems to be a new culture of censoriousness. I remember overhearing — at one of those rather louche ecclesiastical drinks' parties to which one is occasionally invited — the crestfallen curate of a well-known Anglo-Catholic parish remark to another priest that 'we're forbidden from wearing any lace at our place' (the other priest, who is one of the few examples of what we shall call 'fun Anglo-Catholicism' replied by saying 'really? we always do, except during Advent and Lent — well, except during Lent, at any rate').
My theory is that it stems from the ordination of women. This split high and highish Anglicans into two camps: the one camp (which branded itself 'Affirming Catholicism') felt the need to distance itself from the tradition that it derisively labeled as 'gin, lace, and backbiting' and embraced a culture of respectability not unlike that of Scots and Ulster Presbyterianism in days of yore; the other camp (branded as 'Forward in Faith'), felt an almost pathological need to show how 'serious' it was, and adopted a similar culture (as well as some really rather horrible vestments, presumably to show that their religion was not just about aesthetics).
Does this match other peoples impressions?
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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sebby
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# 15147
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Posted
That is an interesting premise, but I am not entirely sure that the ordination of women is at the root.
I have also noticed this culture (to misappropriate 'culture' in this context as it is usually accompanied by a complete lack of it) of censoriousness, and not only in places ecclesiastical. There has been a noticeable decline in nearly all institutions and where these remain a new seriousness seems to have developed. Perhaps the mayoralty of London is an exception.
In High places this is certainly true. Although in certain seminaries various principals used to disapprove of quite witty and hilarious names-in-religion they continued none the less. There was Plum Tart (now an archdeacon somewhere), Radox Regina, Sweaty Betty, Beverley Hills, Poison Ivy, Dot, Deardre and Ethel to name but a few.
They often became highly dedicated priests working away their lives in difficult city parishes. AN Wilson once remarked that for all the pink gin and frivolity, they really understood self-sacrifice and often burned themselves out in parishes others would rarely touch.
That sort of Cecil Beaton campery 'Oh hark at her dear!' does seem to have gone - especially in the gay world now that things are more open.
Is it to do with institutional change, more opennness with regard to sexuality - amd much in the High church world was related to this - or what? Very interesting thread.
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sebhyatt
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sebby
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# 15147
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Posted
There was also a drink called a 'Bourne Street' dispensed in the clergy house of St Mary's. I believe it was one part gin and two parts sherry. It is said that HRH Princess Margaret often used to pop round.
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sebhyatt
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
The ordination of women is a Dead Horse. I'm not going to move this thread at the moment so please do keep away from the Dead Horse. Much obliged.
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Amos
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# 44
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Posted
Cheer up, there's lots of High Anglican Camp still in the Edmonton area (with pockets in other parts of London), and some of the practitioners are still in their twenties. There are also plenty of gin-drinking, lace-wearing priests of the female sex. We used to have one of them posting on the Ship.
[ 04. August 2012, 17:41: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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(S)pike couchant
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# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
There was also a drink called a 'Bourne Street' dispensed in the clergy house of St Mary's. I believe it was one part gin and two parts sherry. It is said that HRH Princess Margaret often used to pop round.
One part gin and one part sherry with a dash of bitters. Served straight up in a chilled glass. At least that's how I've always seen it made.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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sebby
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# 15147
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Posted
How very encouraging. All is not lost.
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sebhyatt
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I think there are two sorts of 'fun' associated with anglo-catholicism. One is the camaraderie and high jinks of a parish community, celebrating their festivals (maybe with a bit of bling in the sanctuary as well as plenty of booze in the church hall), a knees-up, a pilgrimage to Walsingham or some such shrine, a farewell party for a much-loved priest. This sort of fun is inclusive and (depending on the social context) merges with the secular sort to be found in the pubs or back kitchens or dinner parties or whatever.
The other sort might well be fun for those involved, but it tends to be exclusive, clericalist (with tolerated entry to certain privileged laity), can be bitchily gossipy and camp, and very exclusive. Excluding not just the majority of the laity but also any Anglicans of a different tradition and certainly any non-Anglican Christians. (I somehow imagine that outright atheists would be more welcome).
It was this latter sort of clerical club that Kenneth Leech lambasted many years ago with the phrase 'gin, lace and backbiting.' It goes with a theological defensiveness and a delight in pretending that the rest of the Church doesn't exist. The campness used to be more understandable when gay people (especially priests) felt obliged to conceal their sexuality. At least in these circles now it is easier for them to be open and hence the atmosphere in such gatherings is more healthy. And of course the OoW has transformed single-sex clergy gatherings even amongst a-cs. Probably just as much fun in a different way. I don't know what clerical culture is like in the biretta belt regions of North London and the south coast, but in most places now anglo-catholic clergy get along fine with their evangelical and MOTR neighbours and have less desire to maintain exclusive gatherings.
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
Nicely put, Angloid. The old-fashioned "fun" A-Cism could indeed be bitchy, nasty, camp and had nothing of the gospel in it. I know that first hand and, so to speak, from the wrong end. But on the other hand I've known priests who, on first impressions, you might be inclined to put into that category but who turned out to be kind, compassionate and have hearts of gold.
The real "fun" of A-Cism was a kind of knowing innocence, if that's not an oxymoron, that manifested itself in not taking oneself too seriously. For instance, the priest I knew who had a pair of gold shoelaces which he wore at Easter. Or the one who had an old biretta made into a tea-cosy. Slightly silly, slightly childish, and often a cover for a profoundly wounded person who had sacrificed much.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
I think a lot of the old campery and silliness was a release mechanism for men who spent a lot of their time in some fairly grim parishes. I think the culture was always strongest in urban areas, and also in dioceses where Anglo-catholics were not all that welcome. The new seriousness predates the dead horse, some Spikes were taking themselves rather too seriously back in the 1980s. I tend to blame it on the knock on from Vatican II, and the Catholic movement getting liturgically more mainstream.
PD
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Amos
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# 44
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Posted
I thoroughly agree with both Angloid and Adeodatus. When I say that the GLB culture is still flourishing in the church, I don't mean to say that I think that's a good thing. I'm on the outside, but the young priests of my acquaintance who have been invited in, as it were, find it disquieting. They're not used to living in the closet with the door shut; the retro charm quickly wears off.
[ 05. August 2012, 05:41: Message edited by: Amos ]
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Mr. Rob
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# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
... the young priests of my acquaintance who have been invited in, as it were, find it disquieting. They're not used to living in the closet with the door shut; the retro charm quickly wears off.
I'm sure you are quite right about that. Today there is no value placed on closet gay or lesbian behavior. Instead, closeted activity is seen as pathological, as I am sure it is. Value is now placed on an honesty and personal integrity in matters of human sexuality. That's taken the stuffing out of Anglo-Catholic camp, gin and lace in the Anglican Communion. Good riddance.
As for fun in church, so called, I think the post World War II Liturgical Movement and the reform influences of Vatican Council II, took the wind out of the sails of treating the liturgy of the church as a game to be played by insiders in the know; clericalism in short.
Now we have a younger generation of potential sacristy rats and rather rabid church poofters who are rapidly rediscovering this discredited clericalism of the past in astonishing detail with their nimble use of the Internet and other web tools. Unfortunately, their knowledge of these matters thereby remains mostly two-dimensional and without the reference to the rather dark issues connected to it. For many of this younger set there is this golden past and heritage which has been dishonored and thrown into the trash.
Well I was there in the "golden past" of gin, camp, lace and fun in church, and again I say good riddance because of personal experience.
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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(S)pike couchant
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# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
Now we have a younger generation of potential sacristy rats and rather rabid church poofters
Delightful.
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
their nimble use of the Internet and other web tools.
These would presumably be instances of the famous bad internets?
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
I think one difference in the Anglo-Catholic culture I knew in Yorkshire was that most A-C priests were married. The sense of fun was still there, but it didn't quite have the nasty edge it got in some parishes where the 'Gay Nineties' element prevailed.
One time when I was at a gathering of Anglo-Catholics I was on the receiving end of a nice bit of bitchy humour. One of the more obviously gay clergy, who seemed to have bee reponsible for killing the better part of the first bottle of gin single-handed, was trying to chat me up and I was rescued by a kindly voice remarking, "Don't bother Fr. PD! He is so straight the only thing you could do with him if you laid him down is use him as a ruler." Thus rescuing me from the only uncomfortable moment I have ever had at an A-C gathering that was not cause by aesthetics!
On the whole I have always appreciated he camardarie of Anglo-Catholicism, provided the Gin, Lace and Back-Biting were kept under control.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
...rather rabid church poofters who are rapidly...
I don't think this type of language furthers discussion. Please refrain from it in future.
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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(S)pike couchant
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# 17199
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Posted
It's interesting that everyone's first thoughts went to homosexuality. It's probably my fault for bringing up the clerical nicknames — some of which were undeniably rooted in a subculture not wholly distant from that of the drag club. But I also had in mind other things that were perhaps less strongly associated with sexuality.
I suppose the general decline in tolerance for drinking amongst 'polite' society has probably adversely affected gin consumption, although it seems to divide along rural-urban lines: in our little market town, church functions occasionally include a glass or two of wine, but never spirits and are more often teetotal. In contrast, the in the urban Anglo-Catholicism of my youth, it was understood that a certain core of parishoners would stay for hours after a service and drink about a bottle of wine each, plus a few very large gins and perhaps some port as well. I suspect that's becoming less common as part of the new culture of censoriousness.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
I suspect that's becoming less common as part of the new culture of censoriousness.
Not censoriousness, just common sense. Though to partly agree, maybe what's been lost from anglo-catholicism , which gave rise to the fun, is the sense of being 'extreme'. Not just extreme in ecclesiology or theology, but extreme in ceremonial, in fashion (both in church and out), in politics, sometimes - either High Tory or Marxist, extreme in consumption of alcohol....
Much as I prefer to be part of the mainstream church rather than an eccentric fringe, and prefer austerely contemplative liturgy to baroque high jinks, I have to regret that all this often means blandness, and a tendency to po-faced boredom.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Ken Leech himself is on record as saying he can't see what's the matter with being extreme? There's nothing the matter with being extremely kind or extremely generous?
(He's thinking of its use in politics as a coverall condemnation for left wing views, but I can't help think that the fact he was curate of Holy Trinity Hoxton, and never regrets the fact, may influence his attitude to the word.)
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
(S)pike, the rural/urban divide in drinking culture is related to the fear of being banned for driving under the influence, and the even greater fear of killing someone while under the influence and having one's name, photo (in clerical) and possibly even one's name in religion in all the papers.
There used to be a great drinking culture in Ecclesiantics, back when it was Mystery Worship. Most of those people have left now, but I don't for a moment imagine that they've left off drinking GIN.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
But Christianity is an eccentric fringe...
I'd rather be part of austerely contemplative worship than baroque exoticism, but I'd rather be part of baroque exoticism than being patronised and talked down to like a primary school pupil and expected to sit down throughout the entire unimaginative and unstylish proceeding.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
It could be argued that Christianity is a religion of extremes: fasting and feasting, mourning and rejoicing. These features it shares with Judaism and Islam. Like many people of a certain age, I became interested in Buddhism as a young man, but I found the idea of the Middle Way to be vaguely unnatural, whereas the Christianity took the natural emotional states — even the extremes — and harnesses them toward God. That great Terentian maxim 'Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto' (I am Man and think nothing human alien to me) is repurposed for Christ.
Didn't Eliot say that it was only in the Christian mysteries that one could rejoice and mourn at once and for the same reason? That is because rejoicing and mourning are united in sacerdotal time. Christianity, properly understood, does not repudiate extremes of emotion — it consecrates them.
That's a rather pompous way of saying that I think there may have been a serious depth of theology behind all that high church campery.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
I'm gay and I accept the ordination of women.
Before I realised I was gay, I tended disapprove of campy Anglo Catholicism. Since I realised I was gay, and that people like Ken Leech could be nourished by Anglo Catholicism, I'm much more tolerant.
I've no wish to justify myself by proving myself more serious - there but for the grace of God go I. I can see what I have in common with the campy side and I can see how defensiveness can lead to it.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
But Christianity is an eccentric fringe...
I'd rather be part of austerely contemplative worship than baroque exoticism, but I'd rather be part of baroque exoticism than being patronised and talked down to like a primary school pupil and expected to sit down throughout the entire unimaginative and unstylish proceeding.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) Hear, hear!
Also what (S)pike couchant said.
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
One of the former Rectors of Christ Church St Laurence here in Sydney (CCSL is THE AC parish in the diocese) was Fr Austin Day SSM, one of the most dedicated, pastorally sensitive and hard-working priests of his day (and since).
Given his initials, he was affectionally known as 'Agnus Day' by many, but no-one would ever stoop to calling him that face-to-face - the respect they held for him was in no way diminished by his campish nickname, and his oft humorous camp-like style "Oh Fr XY, we can't have you in that during procession - I'm sure we can find you something with more lace!"
Fr Austin was respected and valued by a wide range of Sydney clergy and people - he was made Area Dean and a Canon of St Andrew's Cathedral, Sydney and both the Archbishop of Sydney and the Regional Bishop attended services at CCSL.
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Was the Archbishop bound, gagged and dragged in on a sledge, perchance? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Cheer up, there's lots of High Anglican Camp still in the Edmonton area (with pockets in other parts of London), and some of the practitioners are still in their twenties. There are also plenty of gin-drinking, lace-wearing priests of the female sex. We used to have one of them posting on the Ship.
Pray, tell where are these places? I thought St Silas was the last bastion of lace in Edmonton. Clearly I need to get out more!
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Was the Archbishop bound, gagged and dragged in on a sledge, perchance?
Well, as you might have guessed, if certainly wasn't the current AB - he'd have an fit - when he visited my prevsious parish he was stunned enough, though he did feel the warmth of the greeting (compared, I guess, to when he visits other parishes more of his personal taste and feels the indifference to the fact that the chief pastor of the diocese is with them).
Bishop Robert Forsyth, the regional bishop, does go to CCSL once in a while, and makes a very good effort at accommodating their eccentricities.
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Nicely put, Angloid. The old-fashioned "fun" A-Cism could indeed be bitchy, nasty, camp and had nothing of the gospel in it. I know that first hand and, so to speak, from the wrong end. But on the other hand I've known priests who, on first impressions, you might be inclined to put into that category but who turned out to be kind, compassionate and have hearts of gold.
The real "fun" of A-Cism was a kind of knowing innocence, if that's not an oxymoron, that manifested itself in not taking oneself too seriously. For instance, the priest I knew who had a pair of gold shoelaces which he wore at Easter. Or the one who had an old biretta made into a tea-cosy. Slightly silly, slightly childish, and often a cover for a profoundly wounded person who had sacrificed much.
Abso-tutley. It's about love. If you can have silly fun, and love, and include others - grand. If you exclude others and don't love - no thanks!
I once had the priviledge of being at a (pretty mixed) deanery chapter which started with packed lunches. Two A-C priests (one female, one male) shared their lunch, and announced before starting it, "We've not brought the silver cutlery today, it being Lent". ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
I have been musing on this 'fun' thing.
If someone things that dressing up in funny clothes and arguing about how many candles should be on the holy table and tall should they be and in which order they should be lit and extinguished, then it seems to me that they need some sort of psychiatric help.
It's an interesting (to me) question as to whether certain types of high camp churchery attracts odd people or whether it attracts normal people and makes them odd.
BTW In case someone thinks I am attacking someone else's religion, I am, myself, in the high church 'camp'. If we are not self-critical then we are moribund.
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
If someone things that dressing up in funny clothes and arguing about how many candles should be on the holy table and tall should they be and in which order they should be lit and extinguished, then it seems to me that they need some sort of psychiatric help.
It's amazing how that sentence manages to be offensive without actually making any sort of sense on even a basic semantic level.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Not intended to be offensive, merely pointing out the pathology within the catholic movement of the C of E. Fr. Ken Leech, the great historian of anglo-catholicism, has put it far more pungently in his 'Gin, lace and backbiting' paper - if you like, I'll send you a copy.
More positively, where 'fun' and a/c'ism fit together - we throw good parties. I remember great food, drink, jokes and 'turns' after weekday festival masses at S. Matthew, Carver Street, Sheffield. On a slightly less lavish style, here, in my own parish of All Saints Clifton. (Though one pays for the second glass onwards in this parish!)
The Very Rev'd Jeffrey John notes a similar thing in Wales. He'd been raised Presbyterian but 'converted' to a'c'ism 'because they know how to have fun.'
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Not intended to be offensive, merely pointing out the pathology within the catholic movement of the C of E. Fr. Ken Leech, the great historian of anglo-catholicism, has put it far more pungently in his 'Gin, lace and backbiting' paper - if you like, I'll send you a copy.
That one I have read.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Personal disagreements and personal attacks do not belong in Ecclesiantics. If posters wish to engage in such things then the Hell board is available to you.
leo: I take an extremely dim view if using a need for psychiatric help as a pejorative. I advise against doing that again.
More generally, if this thread cannot be a constructive discussion of culture changes in Anglo-Catholicism as per the OP then it is in danger of being closed.
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
The late Austin Day was certainly high camp with an excellent sense of humour.
It must be at least 20 years since he went to that Great Procession in the Sky.
I think previous Archbishops of Sydney and the current Bishop of South Sydney had and have a somewhat more comprehensive view of Anglicanism than Peter Jensen. Surprisingly, SPK they appeared to have entered CCSL voluntarily. However, there is one item of dress, (once framed on the wall with appropriate note) celebrants at CCSL were officially forbidden to wear. That caused some wry amusement.
Even in Sydney I believe good Evangelicals are looking forward to the end of the Jensen era.
[ 07. August 2012, 00:41: Message edited by: Sir Pellinore (ret'd) ]
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Quam Dilecta
Shipmate
# 12541
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Posted
Among Anglo-Catholics in TEC, any remaining sense of fun has been dampened by the realization that their parish could be next on the firing line, their priests deposed, and their buildings and endowments confiscated.
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Blessd are they that dwell in thy house
Posts: 406 | From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA | Registered: Apr 2007
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
Among Anglo-Catholics in TEC, any remaining sense of fun has been dampened by the realization that their parish could be next on the firing line, their priests deposed, and their buildings and endowments confiscated.
It seems many bishops are very tolerant of Anglo-Catholicism. I'm not so sure they would want too many Anglo-Catholic churches or clergy, but usually the ones that exist seem to be more than safe.
I suspect that the safest ones would be the ones that do a souped-up BCP79 High Novus Ordo sort of thing, while the ones that would be in the most danger would be the ones who cling to the old missals. Was this what you meant?
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
The late Austin Day was certainly high camp with an excellent sense of humour.
It must be at least 20 years since he went to that Great Procession in the Sky.
I think previous Archbishops of Sydney and the current Bishop of South Sydney had and have a somewhat more comprehensive view of Anglicanism than Peter Jensen. Surprisingly, SPK they appeared to have entered CCSL voluntarily. However, there is one item of dress, (once framed on the wall with appropriate note) celebrants at CCSL were officially forbidden to wear. That caused some wry amusement.
Even in Sydney I believe good Evangelicals are looking forward to the end of the Jensen era.
As I understand it, CCSL is like a bowl of nuts, it keeps all the nuts in one place. In Sydney the Powers That Be do not like the flavour of the CCSL nut.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
The late Austin Day was certainly high camp with an excellent sense of humour.
It must be at least 20 years since he went to that Great Procession in the Sky.
I think previous Archbishops of Sydney and the current Bishop of South Sydney had and have a somewhat more comprehensive view of Anglicanism than Peter Jensen. Surprisingly, SPK they appeared to have entered CCSL voluntarily. However, there is one item of dress, (once framed on the wall with appropriate note) celebrants at CCSL were officially forbidden to wear. That caused some wry amusement.
Even in Sydney I believe good Evangelicals are looking forward to the end of the Jensen era.
Not quite 20 years: Fr Austin joined the Procession around the 5th November 2001, may he +rest in peace and rise in glory. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Quoth Amos:
quote:
Cheer up, there's lots of High Anglican Camp still in the Edmonton area (with pockets in other parts of London), and some of the practitioners are still in their twenties. There are also plenty of gin-drinking, lace-wearing priests of the female sex. We used to have one of them posting on the Ship.
What, you mean, not you dear? No longer in my twenties, but certainly lace-wearing and gin-drinking here - and I look forward to sharing one with you next year when I am in the UK I hope!
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
SPK , the history of CCSL does not bear out your comment. Yes, it was a very individual church in Sydney for many years, at least as far as liturgical practices were concerned, but for many years and especially in the depression, it was in the strong tradition of Christian Socialism practiced in many AC parishes in the UK. The amount of welfare work carried out there is amazing.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
...As I understand it, CCSL is like a bowl of nuts, it keeps all the nuts in one place. In Sydney the Powers That Be do not like the flavour of the CCSL nut.
There were always a few places in Sydney which did not fit into the Sydney Evangelical mould.
St James, King Street was traditionally more High than A-C.
St Mary the Virgin, Waverley was in the CCSL mould.
Sydney tended to polarise people.
I wouldn't tend to use the word "nut" about CCSL although it certainly had some great eccentrics.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
But it's not as if worship as entertainment or fun is limited to A-Cs, although different people will have different ideas of fun.
All those sermons which start with an obligatory "joke".
Those praise and worship services with imitation rock music.
The sermon slot on a Harvest Festival taking the form of the Crunchy Carrot Game involving the children (I've seen this).
The Sally Army using music hall music because why should the devil have all the best tunes?
And as for camp, I was amazed to look through Sacred Songs and Solos. When he cometh, when he cometh to make up his jewels. I mean, I ask you.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
Among Anglo-Catholics in TEC, any remaining sense of fun has been dampened by the realization that their parish could be next on the firing line, their priests deposed, and their buildings and endowments confiscated.
That should only be a worry for those few parishes that refuse to reasonably adhere to the doctrine, discipline and worship of the Episcopal Church as established by her lawful and democratic national governance. If one does not show some semblance of such adherence, it is indeed strictly down to the sufferance of the Ordinary as to whether deviations will be tolerated. It should be perfectly possible to use the basic bones of the 1979 BCP as structure for the liturgy - especially the canon of the mass - augmented by various Anglo-Catholic accretions. Non-BCP liturgies fall under the rubrics of so-called "Rite III" and are thus technically illicit for habitual use as the principal Sunday service. Thus, for example, the Roman Canon from the English Missal should not really be used habitually for the principal Sunday Mass, though it could be used on "special" occasions and for masses other than the principal Sunday Eucharist (thus, for an early Sunday Mass and for weekday Eucharists).
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I am still wondering what the connection between high anglicanism and 'fun' is. 'Fun' strikes me as being about 'entertainment' or of 'making light of' something.
At the heart of our religion is the mass. The holy sacrifice is not a joke. It isn't about doing magic with bread and wine but is the offering of ourselves in union with Christ on the cross. The priest who offers it is called to live a sacrificial life and lay people are to do likewise.
Someone had a sig 'No maniple, no mass' I'd rather have 'no sacrifice, no mass'. Otherwise, the mass is a charade.
Th oft-stated ' you can't get to Easter without going through Good Friday' is about lived experience, not trite urging of people to attend the Triduum liturgies as entertainment.
The catholic tradition might have flashy robes but it also invites us to regular self-examination and confession, fasting and almsgiving.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
A now deceased Anglo-Catholic priest of my aquaintance used the term "fun" to derisively describe other Anglo-Catholic clergy who did things he considered over the top either liturgically (saying the mass in Latin and suchlike) or in their personal lives. I believe he himself had been rather "fun" back in his younger days, but was a model of apparent rectitude by the time I had occasion to meet him and visit his parish church a few times (Mt Calvary, Baltimore -- now gone over to the Ordinariate)back in the late 1970s. I never thought that "fun" had a good connotation in the Anglo-Catholic context in many instances. You could only use it without irony in describing a few things such as a joyous procession of Our Lady and that sort of thing, as long as it didn't become too camp (though perhaps what is judged camp is a matter in the eye of the beholder).
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
It should be perfectly possible to use the basic bones of the 1979 BCP as structure for the liturgy - especially the canon of the mass - augmented by various Anglo-Catholic accretions. Non-BCP liturgies fall under the rubrics of so-called "Rite III" and are thus technically illicit for habitual use as the principal Sunday service. Thus, for example, the Roman Canon from the English Missal should not really be used habitually for the principal Sunday Mass, though it could be used on "special" occasions and for masses other than the principal Sunday Eucharist (thus, for an early Sunday Mass and for weekday Eucharists).
Although, strangely, your little shack in Philadelphia seems to use 'Rite III' for most of it's services, without apparently incurring the wrath of the ordinary....
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
True, but that could change under a new bishop. BTW we have been using the BCP canon (American order) at most of our Sunday high masses this summer rather than the Romish Rite III canon. I suppose I shall be frustrated in my wish to experience a solemn high Eucharistic Prayer C (the Star Trek Canon) sadly.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Perhaps fun could be said to be the result of taking the liturgy seriously but not taking oneself too seriously.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I think there are two sorts of 'fun' associated with anglo-catholicism. One is the camaraderie and high jinks of a parish community, celebrating their festivals (maybe with a bit of bling in the sanctuary as well as plenty of booze in the church hall), a knees-up, a pilgrimage to Walsingham or some such shrine, a farewell party for a much-loved priest. This sort of fun is inclusive and (depending on the social context) merges with the secular sort to be found in the pubs or back kitchens or dinner parties or whatever.
The other sort might well be fun for those involved, but it tends to be exclusive, clericalist (with tolerated entry to certain privileged laity), can be bitchily gossipy and camp, and very exclusive. Excluding not just the majority of the laity but also any Anglicans of a different tradition and certainly any non-Anglican Christians. (I somehow imagine that outright atheists would be more welcome).
Most excellently said, Angloid.
I am in a parish that has been on the high side of middle (even by US standards) for a while, and has been definitely tending more towards A-C due to the work of our interims, both members of the (Anglican) Society for Catholic Priests. One is a man, one is a woman.
The sort of fun described in the first paragraph has been very much a part of our parish life. (As one of the resident sacristry rats, I'm truly enjoying their bling, and have learned a lot.)
However, the work of the interims has been in many ways to work on breaking down the bitchy gossip/backbiting/divisions in our midst. It may be "fun" for those doing it ... but not for those on the other end.
Fr. Temp, as a gay man, can absolutely camp it up with the best of them and has fit in well with our extant gay male mafia, but it's not at others' expense - he's a very inclusive pastor.
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I am still wondering what the connection between high anglicanism and 'fun' is. 'Fun' strikes me as being about 'entertainment' or of 'making light of' something.
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An excellent post in toto, leo.
There is, indeed, quite a difference in having fun, however innocent and good for you that is and Christian Joy which often comes after a great deal of suffering. Suffering and the spiritual growth it entails are part and parcel of Christianity. Amazingly, in Christ's case, that suffering was undertaken quite voluntarily.
During the Eucharist we should be reverently attentive.
Some high camp A-C humour is, I think, often stress relief. Many clergy don't like being put on a pedestal and surrounded by reverent "Father-worshippers" all the time.
Some A-C flagship churches do seem a bit heavy on the entertainment side of the liturgy. Strictly speaking, the Eucharist is not meant to entertain us as much as to raise us up out of our everyday lives for a temporary glimpse of Heaven where Time and Eternity intersect.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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